Sam1986

Not sure if you're insinuating that I or boltnrun are catastrophizing, it's just that I have no patience for that sort of play. I dont have any particular problems forming relationships, and just got out of one with a fantastic woman (where we unfortunately had to split ways over the issue of children). That last one we had sparks flying from the first date, and both were up front about this date being great (and the rest that followed as well). People are very different, hence my point that we try to avoid labelling people and how "this and that sex acts in this and that way" and assume intentions and modes of operating which may not hold true for that particular individual.

You do you, if you feel that this approach is the right, that's perfectly ok. But let's not pretend like this is some universal truth. Women (just like men) aren't all similar, and treating them as some stereotype who "all think emotionally, ready to be wooed with the right combinations of words and attitude" is in my opinion just dishonest. My point exactly. I'm the same as you, if I sense any sort of back and forth these days, I'm out the door. Got neither time nor interest for that.

I'd be careful though, because it's not uncommon that she starts getting more and more friendly as he pulls back (even outright flirting), and when you really like someone it's hard to resist that, thinking that "things have changed". This is in a nutshell why I advocate just being straight up, because it kills such nonsense dead in it's tracks. But yeah, she isn't interested, time to move on.

He needs to pull back full stop (and permanently), or ask her straight up. This dance has gone on for too long, and nothing in her behaviour pattern is suggesting that it will change. From a man's perspective, this pattern is not uncommon when trying to woo a woman. At some point you gotta start cutting your losses and free up your headspace for meeting other people.

My issue isnt with whether or not it is guaranteed to work, my issue is that it reinforces unhealthy dating and relationship patterns later in life. Not everything is up to yourself in life, and trying to "change" someone else's behaviour (an autonomous person with their own feelings, wants and desires) towards you by changing your own behaviour is reminiscent of playing games, which is by itself unhealthy. Harsh words perhaps, but I feel quite strongly about anything that is reminiscent of playing games and manipulating behaviour. Once you meet a person that you just mesh well with, there is no need to pull these sorts of tricks at all. Either you like each other or you don't.

I'd say that this is very unlikely to happen. We are assuming here that he by himself has the power to get the outcome he desires through changing his behaviour, which I take great issue with. People don't necessarily become more attracted to someone because they pull away. This girl is a person, and like all people she has her own desires and wants. And if she's not attracted to him initially, no amount of "pulling away" is going to make her want him. I believe that this part that I quoted above here is some very bad dating advice in general, and reflects a notion that people should just drop alltogether if they desire healthy dating patterns and relationships.

This right here is why I would just go and ask her out on a date (bolded the parts that are typical of a push-pull dynamic). Currently you are describing the frustrating feeling of hot and cold, and even if you describe how that it's "probably all friendly behaviour", you continue on and write down what is essentially a hope that "maybe, just maybe". This can pretty much go on forever, because at the moment you two have a dynamic where it escalates to a certain point, before it deescalates and then later on escalates again. As someone who has experienced that just as much as you, it's frustrating to say the least. I'll be honest and say that there is a good chance that she isn't into you. The problem with this situation is that someone that might not be super into you, might be everything from "a little bit into you" (wants to keep you on the hook, but won't commit), wants to keep the friendship (thereby acting friendly afterwards in order to not lose you friendship, which you misinterpret as interest), or just doesnt know how to reject you at all (maybe because she doesnt want to hurt you). Regardless of which it is, the bottom line here is that this dynamic is happening between you, you clearly want something more while nothing really comes of it, and it's currently doing your head in as you are in a twilight state of constantly wondering and hoping for more. Ask her out and get it over with, at least you'll have your answer. It sucks to get rejected, but as you currently describe your situation, you've got pretty much nothing to lose. If she rejects you and wants to remain your friend, you can decide for yourself if you want that later. As someone who has experienced this a couple times before, it's likely just going to continue unless you force the issue (that, or you actually decide to leave her be, but looking at how you are repeatedly keeping the door open, I'd say that is unlikely to happen. And who can blame you, you want her).

The way the OP presented this, there are indications that she could be interested, and there as indications that she's not. We don't know anything for sure here, and we can assume her interest for him all day long. That's why I advocate just asking her out for a date directly, because that cuts down the ambiguity and gives him a straight answer. Whether or not that answer is positive or negative is not something we know at this point, but at least he will have one after he clarifies his intentions. He is clearly thinking a lot about this issue and how to interpret her interest, and from my experience it's easiest to just be forthright at that point to save himself from more headache. I personally think that the notion that you can "build attraction" with just about anyone is nonsense in most cases, one that often gets portrayed by the dating advice industry. In my own case a girl can push a few buttons that would make me more attracted to her, but they have nothing to do about the "tension and anticipation" that you describe here, and she would have to be a genius to find out which ones they are beforehand. Hence it's a personal variable that might or might not apply in this case. It worked for you, but there is no reason believe that we can extrapolate this to apply to the OPs situation.

I'm happy you met a guy that way, and I think we'd all like a little more of that in our lives. But while that may have been perfect for you in that particular situation, we can't really extrapolate that this is always the way to approach a given situation. In the OP's case, he is currently not in a situation like that at all, the situation can't even be compared at this point as these two have known each other for a while, and nothing has come of it so far. Heck, she is clearly seeing other men at this point, so the window of opportunity is closing fast (if it was ever open to begin with). The OP needs to take some swift and direct action here, and asking her out directly is in my opinion the way to go here. No more of this dance back and forth. This is in no way intended as belittling your experience in any way by the way, I just don't think it applies in this case. It takes quite a confident man and woman on both sides to progress things this way, which is not a factor we know much about in the OPs case (some evidence seems to suggest otherwise even).

That's a lot of ifs, and nothing I'd recommend personally. For all we know, we might even have two inexperienced people here where either party won't initiate. Heck, you could even turn the argument on it's head and say that "if she is attracted to him, she won't mind at all that he is being forward by asking for a date". Sure you can build attraction the way you describe, but because nothing has come of it so far, I'd personally specifically ask for a date to cut out the ambiguity. The OP is already unsure whether or not she is into him, and so far his connection to this girl hasn't amounted to anything. If anything, the OP has pretty much done all these steps already (apart from drinks it seems), and it's gotten him nowhere so far. Even to the point where she is clearly meeting other guys, and it's causing him some level of distress, to the point that he is asking here. At some point you just have to come forward and cut out the subtle hints, because the indirect approach doesn't seem to be working in the case the OP describes here. Asking for a date is nothing to be ashamed of. Heck, people have been forthright with their intentions since the dawn of time without that ever stopping attraction from building. If she's into him, my bet is that she will gladly accept, even if it feels wrong to you personally to state intentions that way.

As someone who has walked down that path before, I'd be careful with not making it clear that it's a date. I was into a girl some two years ago that I thought also knew that it was a date, but apparently not. She probably understood, but since I hadn't been upfront with it she never followed up, then later told me that she and acted surprised when I eventually did clarify some months later and told me she had gotten a boyfriend. It just created more awkwardness than necessary. While I don't regret clarifying the situation, I do regret not doing it sooner.

Tell her straight up that you are into her and that you would like to take her on a date, don't make it ambiguous by just asking if she wants to go to a movie or not. Heck, you can even do it over text if you are too shy to ask her in person. But not making it clear that you want to date her can lead to all sorts of awkward situations as you both wonder if you are dating or not. Been there, done that, and it was awkward for almost a year until I asked this girl a few years ago straight up with no uncertainties. I got a no, but it was very easy to digest because that door was now closed and there was no reason to wonder anymore whether she was into me or not. Who cares if you are in the "friendzone" or not, it's about you clarifying an unclear situation, and something that shows bravery either way.

Ask her out, you got some decent indications that she might be into you, so there's not really any reason to prolong this any further. Maybe she says no, maybe she says yes, but you won't find out until you take your shot. Getting rejected is a fear we all live with, but at least you won't have anything undone if you took your shot and missed. Speaking from experience, it's much better to take your shot and getting rejected, than not taking it at all. Not taking it tends to eat away at you over time as you wonder what might have been (or worse, she dates him and you still keep questioning whether she likes you or not), whereas a straight "no" will allow you to move on and find someone else as that door is closed anyway.

Yeah I totally get that, when you're already uncomfortable interacting with strangers and feel like you're on an "exam" on top of that (a date in this case), it just adds another layer of awkwardness that can be quite crippling. It definitely sounds like it's a good idea for you to continue to expose yourself to interactions with strangers in general. Heck, exposing yourself to that is so easy in terms of low effort, that you can start it already today. Try to have a brief 20 second chat with the cashier at the super market after work today. Man or woman, old or young, it doesn't matter. Just a quick "I guess this is rush hour for you guys, huh" (pointing at the crowds) or similar can get the ball running, and it doesn't have to be more than that. Start small and you'll notice after a while that you get more accustomed to it. 🙂 Another mental thing that did help for me as well, was "pre-rejecting" myself ahead of a date. This meant that I had consciously already decided for myself that I would get rejected by my date ahead of the actual date. While this might sound somewhat counter-intuitive, it actually helped me in removing a lot of the pressure (which ultimately stems from fear of being judged and eventually rejected), because I had already decided that I would be rejected anyway. Can't reject me if I already beat you to it! 😄 I combined that mindset with going on multiple dates, sometimes as many as 2-3 dates per week (if I had that many matches willing to go on dates, which was obviously not every week). Since I had mentally already rejected myself beforehand, I treated these dates mentally as "just something I do to pass the time on a random Wednesday after work". That relieved a ton of pressure for me, since now I was not attaching as much worry to the outcome of the interaction itself. It was just another coffee or beer after work, no biggie. Heck, a friend of mine who is very savvy with women (and he's not even that good looking!), says every time that he "likes to get rejected by women". The clue here is that he has shifted the focus, he has on some level already accepted the rejection, and with that in mind he has nothing to lose when he approaches women (he cold approaches in bars though, which is not something I advocate if you're not comfy with it. Probably wise to stick to your dates here to begin with. I don't like approaching in bars either, and that's totally fine). I'm not saying these approaches will work for you, but shifting the mentality definitely helped me, to the point now where going on dates is relatively easy for me (I never quite lose that nervousness beforehand though, but that's fine and quite normal). But I would definitely not stop exposing myself to social interactions, because every time you tell yourself that you need to "work on yourself" and stop dating, you're indirectly telling yourself that you failed. And the human brain does not like failures, so you might actually make the problem worse by retreating from dating if you feel like it goes wrong. Going wrong happens to everyone, so just accept it for what it is. And if you prefer to start easy by chatting for 20 seconds to random strangers, just do it! Today! 😄

I don't understand why a man would even accept a proposal like this in general. If we're just talking pure sex with strangers, your average woman can probably get that a lot easier than the average man, so I don't really see the upsides of that for the man unless he already has someone sized up and ready to go.

This right here. The absolute vast majority of PUA advice is absolute garbage, aimed at insecure people who the PUA uses as a target demographic to sell their product (advice/courses/their youtube channel or similar). The same insecure friend I referred to above (the one who frequently needed to "work on himself") also fell pray to the junk teached by a PUA, claiming that "it works". Apparently he and a friend went there together, and his friend took it to heart and is apparently "very successful now and sleeps with ladies which he meets in bars all the time". My simple response to that was, "well, he's still single though". Especially all the trash about "alpha-" and "beta males" needs to stop, it just creates a vicious situation where insecure people try to become sort of caricature of a man, in some cases even violent or outright creepy. Be an interesting person on your end of the conversation. It takes two to create one, and there's really not much more to it than that.

Don't, just keep going at it. A friend of mine who was not very good with the ladies always tended to use this is a cop out for when I was pressuring him about not going on more dates. He was always complaining about being single, and when trying/failing at dating he always resorted to the old "I need to take a break and work on myself", completely missing the point that "working on yourself" means that you get out there and get your hands dirty. It's kind of like learning a trade. You can always go and read read more theory if you struggle, but it's not going to get you far compared to actually doing it. One thing I used to do when challenging myself with this, was just trying to get gett good at holding a conversation (even if short) with strangers. I am not talking about dates here, and not necessarily even women. Just strangers, like a quick chat with the cashier at the store, a random guy at a bar to pass the time, or someone at work who I hadn't talked to before etc. Doing that takes the pressure of a lot, because you're not worried about being rejected, because there's no rejection even going on here if it's just a casual chat with a stranger. This builds confidence, which translates directly into a date situation where you start to know fairly confidently that you can hold up your end of a conversation to make it interesting. And usually this translates into her being more open and engaging as well, which creates positive reinforcement for both of you.

Sounds to me like you're putting too much pressure on yourself, as evident by how you "switched it up and tried being mean". My suggestion is that you just treat it as a random meetup with a stranger (which it is), and just go from there by talking about completely normal things, especially things that excite you (be it some hobby, travel etc.). And for the love of god, make enough room for her to talk too. Many women love it when they can chat about their passions (among other things), and it makes it much easier for you since you can sit back at that point without being worried about what to say, while asking her some follow-up questions on any interesting parts she mentioned, or presenting some sort of anecdote that relates to what she said. My dates probably have the women talk 60-70% of the time, and those usually work out the best as well. Avoid talking too much yourself (if you feel like this is happening, she is either super shy or not interested), but also pick up on when she wants you to say something (you notice her story stops and the awkward pause that follows). Even if this sounds difficult, rest assured that this is actually very easy to master with some practice. So my main advice is, just keep going on dates, as you will automatically get better at it after a while. The hardest part is in the beginning, where you're nervous and it affects your conversations. But this thankfully tends to subside as you do it more often and you subconsciously start to view it as "just another conversation that might be interesting" rather than some exam where you're being judged for your performance.

Thank you for the kind words. Regarding dating others, I feel like I am ready for that already. The reason for that is that we have talked about this issue since this summer, and I've been vocal that if I can't get a more concise answer, that I'd have to start dating other people again. We did of course postpone any breakup because neither of us wanted to leave an otherwise fantastic match (except for the issue about children), but I guess it made me able to mentally prepare for this in advance. Unlike other losses I've had in the past, this came as no shocking surprise, and both of us have had nothing but good experiences while it lasted. So I guess that this makes it easier in a way to move on. I feel like the hardest part here is the feeling of being incredibly unlucky in that there appeared one very unfortunate dealbreaker in an otherwise very good relationship.

I can't speak for everyone else here, but there is dating, and there is dating through dating apps. Both of them tend to require a lot of time. Now obviously you can create a profile out there and just sit back to see what wanders along, but as a man that is generally not something that nets much (if any) results unless you are significantly more physically attractive (or clearly wealthy) than most other men. As someone who has experienced the opposite here (I did in fact take risks in dating and went for both), that caused some serious burnout. Yes you can and should take risks in dating, but dating apps are a completely different ballgame than taking the occasional risk and approaching a woman you're interested in. It takes a lot of time if you are anywhere on the "average" scale, and you can expect a match rate of about 1 in a 100 swipes (assuming an app like Tinder). Then you have to factor in that probably less than a third of women reply (and that is assuminging you write a carefully written text), and that only a third of these result in an actual date (and that is assuming you are pro active and try to maintain a conversation, which is also draining when most women on dating apps are so unresponsive). Then you have to factor in that the chance of a date leading to several dates due to mutual interest and some level of chemistry (not to speak of a relationship), and you're talking about very slim odds in the long run. Can you be lucky? Of course, but I'm just talking about numerical odds here, which are relevant if you have to make long term strategies for your life. Again I'm not saying you shouldnt necessarily take those risks, but it is important to be aware of the likely return of investment in time here. If the OP is already feeling that the job hunt is draining (which would be of no surprise, it often is when looking through ads, updating resumes and filing applications), then we're looking at two factors that can heavily influence the chance of experiencing burnout. I should know, because I burned out myself from that some 7-8 years ago. I would of course take risks and approach interesting women, or try to meet women through friends/family/mutual interests. That takes a lot less time and might even yield similar results, compared to dating apps, thus lessening the chance of burning out.

Tough situation as a man. Dating apps are terrible for a majority of men to begin with (I won't go into details here, but take my word for it), and you need to sort your professional life first as it is currently preventing you from achieving financial independence, and doing you a disservice in terms of attracting women. You can of course try to do both (job hunting and actively trying to match with someone), but that carries a risk of burnout which will do you no favour. Both of these tend to take a lot of time and effort, so choose wisely on how you approach this to avoid that burnout.

Maybe you have a skewed definition of "healthy". I'm not saying your relationship is unhealthy (need more information for that), but just because someone is communicating like an open book, doesnt necessarily equal a healthy relationship. My ex from 3 years ago very vocal about all her issues, and she would talk about these insecurities all the time. Heck, she would even go into a rage if I didn't give her the response she desired when she was talking about them, and the relationship was extremely drama filled and eventually completely drained me. That was definitely not a healthy relationship, not for me at least. I personally strongly dislike it when people raise their voices and can't talk about things in a calm and rational manner, while she had an extreme temper and would swing from loving to angry (and back again through an interim of crying). This is a trait that I know that I'm personally not compatible with, and was therefore very unhealthy for me. She of course insisted that I was the unhealthy one who would (or could) not communicate by showing raw and unfiltered emotions, but having experienced recent love again, I know that this isnt necessarily a fact, and more of a desire that she had personally.

So, an update here: I took @catfeeder's advice here, and attempted to explore one final time what her main concerns were, both on Sunday and again yesterday. She still isn't exactly sure if she can pinpoint the exact reason, but she gave me several reasons that all seem to influence her position. She has never seen herself in the light of being a mother, and feels like she should have this feeling if she is ever to become one. She compares herself to friends who have become pregnant, that apparently always had this feeling/desire of becoming a mother, and that this desire apparently manifested in her friends into a feeling of "I want to have kids with this person". She doesnt have that feeling even though she could see herself marrying me one day, and takes this lack of said feeling as a sign that she shouldnt become a mother. She is unsure whether she would be a good mother. She is afraid of making such a big commitment in her life, and her last relationship made her feel trapped while the breakup left her more happy as she felt "free" again (she is quite indecisive on a lot of things, and also very spontaneous as a person. This spontaneity is a trait that I quite like in her, but I see how this might complicate things if she doesnt like to plan ahead and feels like this is a major stepping stone). She is apparently at risk of some auto-immune disease, that might trigger in a gland in her throat when/if she becomes pregnant, and which might have her on some sort of medication for the rest of her life if it triggers. Most likely these factors all tie together, since she can't pinpoint one exact defining reason. I did however gather that she is leaning somewhat heavily in the "no" camp, and that her "maybe" is more due to "I lean no, but obviously I might change my mind" (which I guess is true of everyone). I will admit that I made a sin here in letting her sleep over last night (with all that it encompasses), but that was voluntary from both of us. And in fact, I feel somewhat relieved now. I explored these reasons to the best of my ability, and while the outcome is not one that I desired, I feel like I can close this chapter of my life now. We said our long good byes, and while it reeeeaally sucks to lose such a fantastic person in my life, it was preferable to the "semi-breakup" we had before since we now broke up in a clean way. And as @Batya33mentioned in regards to keeping a (time limited) door open, my final words were that she should reach out to me if she did change her mind (ideally sooner rather than later), but also knowing fully well that I will be not be waiting and instead be moving on from here. If I become pleasantly surprised in a few months or a year down the road, great. And if not, then I will not have waited in vain in the meantime. Thank you all for the input here, especially @catfeederon your suggestion that I explore it a bit more before formally calling it quits. It certainly has helped me lay a foundation to close these doors for good now, and not worry about any potential "what ifs" down the line due to us just "fading out" like has happened over the last month. This person was definitely one worth putting in the extra effort for, even if that effort means closing doors for good. She means the world to me, and if we're not to meant be, I am happy that we said our proper good byes and went our separate ways on a good note. 😀

How is that a test? She gave him a hint that she likes some sort of candy, I don't see how that is a test in the way the OP phrased it, because she never asked him to come over with it. What is weird however is that the OP bothered to drop off some candy at her doorstep, especially after just a couple of dates. Gestures such as these are in my opinion way over the top, especially this early, which can be off-putting (it would almost certainly be if someone did that to me after 3 dates). I don't think any alarm bells should be going off at all here. You had 3 dates, and she can't date during the weekdays that one week because of a new job. Fine, reschedule and work out a new date, she even countered and said that the weekend seemed fine, so I really don't see how you should worry here. Are you perhaps a bit inexperienced in dating? Because this does sound a lot like insecurity to me. I should know, because I had similar traits in my 20s. These days I just brush it off, as long as she makes some effort to offer alternative dates, then I see no problem. If she gave you short answers (1-2 sentences) after several hours/days later with no excuse and no dates planned then sure, you can assume she's less than thrilled about dating you. But in that case there's no need for alarm bells either, ball is in her court and you can do whatever you want to do in the meantime.

Thanks for all replies here so far, even though I couldn't reply to everyone. It's very much appreciated, as I wouldn't have gone to such lengths to post it unless it mattered so much (which it obviously does). At the moment I'm a bit torn on whether I should have a final talk to explore her reasons and whether the role of primary caregiver is up for discussion, but currently I'm probably leaning more towards just exploring other options. Will have a good, hard think about this over the weekend. 🙂