Scout

Well at first I had big plans to diet and after four days of starvation, said the hell with THAT. Anyway, I only weigh about 135, so its not like I really needed to diet. But women tend to immediately think "diet!" after a break-up...the things I actually followed through on are a) trying to get my freelance writing career going, and b) going to more social events.

I've actually gotten my first paying client now, and I also met a cute guy yesterday at a party up in the mountains! But that wasn't the best part of the party - the band invited me up to sing, and I did, and got lots of compliments! So, it was a pretty fun day.

I still miss the ex, though, and I had to deal with a real wave of anger tonight because he was supposed to call me this evening and never did. But - let me get back to thinking about the happy thoughts above!

I actually agree with Michael's post. Go for it!

Five months of NC should be enough time to have figured out some things about your ex and the relationship. If you think the positives far outweigh the negatives, than contact her. And tell us what happened!

Are you sure you didn't mention this chick in Boston because you were secretly hoping it would make your current girlfriend instigate a break? So that you could be free to pursue things with the other girl during your internship? I don't blame your current girlfriend for getting freaked out. Dude, you have some serious reassuring to do if you really want her back.

I strongly advise against sending this email. I think it's too long, depressing, and hopeless. It's going to annoy her and make her feel guilty at the same time - not a fun combination. Sorry, but that's the way it's likely to come accross to her too! Please trust me on this, the email I suggested is much more appropriate, it's not too heavy (and right now, she's likely associating you with drama), and to the point. I would write this:

Dear _____,

This email may not be welcome at this point, but I feel I owe you an apology for all the drama these last several weeks, and subjecting us both to several unpleasant scenes. Although I'm not proud of my behavior, for what it's worth, there was genuine caring for you behind it, and I guess I just lost it for a while.

Luckily, I kind of pulled myself together, and just wanted to let you know the time we spent together meant a great deal to me, and I have a lot of good memories. We may not talk for a while, but I do wish you all the best, and hope all is going well for you.

Take care,

Tif, it's hard to give advice on your situation because I don't know why you two broke up, or how long you dated, or what problems were in your in your relationship, and what the good things were in your relationship.

So, without knowing any of that, I'd have to say that two months is a long time with no call, and that it's time to force yourself to stop crying and get out of the house. Even if it kills you to do it, get out of bed, and get back out there in the world. You're making yourself physically ill. If you are really so haunted by the question "Does he miss me" to the point where you can't breathe, well...if you have the nerve to do it, call him and talk to him.

I agree with No Contact, but I also understand that you feel remorseful for pleading and making a scene, etc. I think a VERY short email saying something along the lines of, listen, I know the last two weeks have been pretty emotional/stressful, and I apologize for freaking out....for what it's worth, I freaked because I cared about you so much...wish I hadn't acted out, though, and please know that I wish only happy things for you...hope all is well, take care - would be fine and than after that - NO CONTACT for at least three weeks.

If she hasn't initiated contact by then, than you will have to decide if you think you'd be ready or even want to be friends with her, and thus make contact if you do. But I would use these three weeks as a time to do things for yourself, go out as much as possible (avoid alcohol if you can, it'll make you do something stupid, trust me on this one ) do a little reflecting on the relationship - what was wrong, what was right about it, the qualities you liked in her, the ones that you weren't so crazy about, your own behaviors and attitudes in the relationship, and her's - you get the idea.

Hang in there with the No Contact. He WILL call or email you - it may take a few weeks, it may happen tomorrow - but he will. And than when he does, I'd wait a few days before you call/email him back. Than keep it light, casual, no mention of the relationship, friendly, and I promise this tactic will get him reconsidering.

I did notice in your posts that you did an awful lot for this guy...dinner every night AND his laundry? I don't mean to overstep myself, but I think that a grown man should do his own dirty laundry. You were his partner, not his maid/mother. We women tend to think that if we are the perfect domestic goddess, our men will love us for it. Actually, they'll start to take us for granted. Every now and then, doing someone's laundry or cooking them dinner is nice for a special treat, but on a regular basis, it's my view that men take this as a sign that we're absolutely devoted to them, and thus, they can relax on having to romance us, and make the extra efforts that mean so much in a relationship. It's not that they're jerks about it, it's just a natural reaction that kicks in when the person you're with everyday dotes on you and treats you like royalty - you think, well, I must be perfect just the way I am! thereforeeee, if it ain't broke - don't fix it...no need to do anything extra...you get the idea.

I hope you're not thinking that he's going to miss having his laundry done and having dinner cooked for him so much that he comes back to you. You can be sure his mom is doing those things for him, especially while she's going through a divorce, she's naturally going to need to do a little extra nurturing for her son to keep her mind off her painful divorce. If I were you, once contact is initiated by him - and it WILL be if you don't contact him first - and you two have had a few friendly conversations, I'd suggest some low-key, fun activities, like hiking or tennis or frisbee in the park - something fun. Tell him you realize he's probably under a lot of stress because of his Mom's divorce and you sympathize with it, and thought whatever particular activity you suggest will be fun. Do NOT offer to make him dinner afterwards, either! And don't be surprised if instead he offers to take you to dinner afterwards!

Truly thought-provoking posts on this thread...it all makes so much sense, I just wish my ex was reading this stuff. Ziggy, the sentence you wrote about "proving our worst nightmares" when our partners back off at the first sign of discord is so true. At least in my case. It's frustrating, sometimes it feels I'm doing all the work to figure out how to have a healthy relationship with each other, but if it doesn't work out with this guy, I've got plenty of new information to take with me into the next relationship.

Shocked, I also agree with Ziggy that it's perfectly fine to keep up with the "Strategic Nudges" (what a great expression!) However, keep them infrequent. You need to see for yourself if when you give a Nudge, if it initiates extra contact on her part. For example, last week I called the ex a week after we had a big blow-out (see Gee Cee's thread "A New Gal in Town"), just to sort of say hi, find out how things were going in his family (family members ill) and although he was short on that phone call, he actually called me back later that afternoon, and we saw each that evening. But if the Nudges never result in any kind of contact back from them, I guess you gotta do some thinking on that, and figure out if that means to press on, or not.

Maybe I'm simplifying this too much, but if you two broke up for legitimate reasons that did not involve either cheating on the other, and somewhere in the three month period that you two broke up she did sleep with someone else....I am having a hard time understanding why that fact alone has made you decide you want nothing else to do with her. I'm not judging you for feeling that way, just honestly curious. I've heard other men say similar things, women too, but more often men seem to be the ones less able to forgive. I honestly don't know if I would be able to either, it honestly depends on a lot of factors. I know for sure I would never forgive someone who cheated on me during the relationship, or hooked up with someone less than a month after we broke up.

First of all, I am profoundly sorry that you had this happen to you. You were the victim of an ethical "crime", no doubt about it. It sucks, it's awful, and you deserve to feel EVERYTHING you're feeling. These people committed a terrible betrayal against you, and I believe that when people do something this bad, the Universe ultimately pays them back.

My immediate advice is to get the hell away from anything and anyone that reminds you of these people. Have nothing more to do with anything that will bring you into contact with them. Second, if this happened to me, I'd have to see a therapist right away or I'd be afraid of what my anger would make me do. And I'd see the therapist twice a week until the worst of my despair and rage left me. At the same time, I'd find a church or spiritual center of some kind and start going there too. The goal here is to not let these two weak, immoral people change the basic goodness and decency that resides in yourself. Finding a way to safely and productively deal IMMEDIATELY with the anger and hurt is key here.

And by the way - make much use of this forum! We are here for you, and you can get some incredible feedback from the wise posters here, many of whom have been in the same situation. We care, we're here, talk to us. You're going to get through this, I promise.

Without knowing why you two broke up - and most importantly, how - I don't know how to suggest you contact her. whether you do it by phone or email doesn't matter, it's what you say in either case. If the relationship ended on a bad note, and you did or said some things you're not too proud of, either way you're going to have to right up front say, look I know this is a blast from the past, and maybe not one you ever thought you'd want to hear from again, but I've always felt bad about how things ended, and I just want you to know that I'm sorry. I've thought about you often, and you were an important person in my life, and I really felt like I owed you this call. Or email as the case might be.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

I can comment on one of these points...I think it's possible that what she actually meant by "finding her voice" means that she needs to have confidence in how she communicates in the relationship with you. That ties in with what she said about being afraid to criticize you for fear of losing you. (on a side note, I wish she had said being up-front about her views on some of your behaviors instead of the word criticize, but maybe that's what she meant).

Anyway, if that is the case than I would encourage a low-key, not to fast pace of open communication. Basically setting a whole new tone to your relationship. Listen carefully to her, and give her feedback at the same time to. My starting to become a favorite quote is: Don't give up, don't give in - just give.

Listening is giving. Offering feedback, and empathizing at the same time is giving. Learning to look at her good qualities with new appreciation is giving. Even maintaining just a friendship if that's what the situation calls for is giving. You get the idea...

Kipster, thanks for the encouraging words. I am not so sure we're going to work out, but I'm willing to see where this goes. Ok, this guy needs lots of space and time to himself - for now. I can go along with that as long as I'm keeping myself happy with other activities. And who knows - I heard a great quote once from "Sex and the City". One of the characters had just moved in with her boyfriend, and she was missing her single-life habit of having the place to herself when she got home. So one evening, after she walked into the door and he started asking about her day she said, look, I love you, but I need you to do something for me: please don't talk to me for one hour. He said ok, and went back to his book. She went to her bedroom sat on the bed for about five minutes, than walked back out to the living room and said...so...how was your day?

The point of the story and the quote she narrated at the end of the scene was: Sometimes, when your needs are met - you don't have those needs anymore.

Hey Rich - I understand your frustration. If ever there was a situation where someone was truly giving out "mixed signals" this is it! I honestly have no idea what's up with your ex. It really doesn't make much sense, and I bet you've just been through the ringer trying to deal with it and make some kind of logical explanation for it. I think the conclusion I am coming to is that with all the mixed signals she's sending, it's clear she's totally mixed up, undecisive, doesn't know what she wants in the short OR long term, and holds onto people in case she decides she truly needs them later on. I would not want to be with someone like that, even if they had other great traits. But that's just me - I tend to like people who are confident in their decisions (especially if they came to their decisions in an intelligent, thoughtful process), I just feel more secure around them. Security is an important need for me, may not be for some other people. So I'm only speaking for myself.

Is this something she's done before? Called repeatedly after you told her that the current situation isn't going to work? And if so, what happened when you called her back? You can be sure that likely the same scenario will happen again. Is she leaving any messages about something specific when she calls, or just not leaving one at all? That tells you that at the very least, it's probably not an emergency of any sort.

Go with what your gut feeling tells you to do. Whether that's call her and see if this time she has a legitimate reason, or don't call her and try to get her out of your system...whatever your instinct is telling you the most to do.

I'll tell you something, Rich...from your posts and some of the others, I've learned a lot. First I learned that at the beginning of a break-up, No Contact is the best course. It gives you time to cool down so you don't act too much on your emotions, reflect about what was wrong and what was right about the relationship, time to do some things for and reconnect with yourself, and hopefully (and this shouldn't be the first priority) will make your ex see that you aren't completely falling apart without them, which always makes them second guess their choice a little - or in some cases a lot.

I've also learned that at some point contact should be initiated, unless they really did something awful to you, like were unfaithful or something. Because absense after a certain point can initiate them to move on. And if they are worth fighting for - something the NC period should help you decide - you definitely don't want them to move on yet.

What I'm still learning is, how long do you fight for them. And exactly how do you fight for them? My ex and I are talking again, and have even agreed that we're going to plan a camping trip soon. I think he's just not used to be challenged as much as he was with me. Let's face it, I'm a fiesty chick. It's not always a bed of roses for the person who is going out with me. And I think it started to appear "hard" to him, and he's sort of on the self-indulgent, overly independent side. A little too self-focused. So, I still don't know if all this is worth it. But I have been doing things on my own a lot, and talking to him every few days, and we've seen each other once since our big blow-out two weeks ago when I just out and out lost it (see Gee Cee's thread "There's a New Gal In Town", I give more details there.) Anyway, I know he does care about me, maybe not as much right now as he did before, but we'll see where this goes...I still think at heart he's a kind and very decent guy, who makes me laugh and I feel an easy connection with. So I'm not quite ready to give up.

To sum up, I have learned so much about handling a break-up, from the posts on this forum. I have a bit more to learn as I'm still in the process, and I am curious to see how this all pans out.

Hi - I think you were right to go with your original distaste for fishing. I strongly disagree with the poster who suggested that by learning how, you had worked on "improving" yourself. If you don't mind, I'm providing some information about this so-called "sport". I think you'll be pretty appalled. Also, would you really want to be with someone who would dump you simply because you don't like to fish??

There are other "country" things you can do - hiking, camping, canoeing. Encourage him to make some kind of excursion like that with you, and see what his reaction is.

About fishing:

Hooked fish struggle out of fear and physical pain. Once fish are brought out of their environment and into ours, they begin to suffocate. Often their gills collapse and the swim bladder can rupture due to the sudden change in pressure on their bodies. Anglers also often impale their victims on a "stringer" and dangle them in water so that they won't die quickly and "spoil."

Fish who are released can suffer such severe stress from being "played" that they may die even though they manage to swim away or may be so weakened that they are easy prey for predators.(3) The "fight" to survive during catch and release can cause a buildup of lactic acid, making the fish stiff and sore, lessening their chances of survival.(4)

Many trout streams are so intensively fished that they are subject to "catch and release" regulations requiring that all fish caught must be let go; the aquatic animals in these streams are likely to spend their entire short lives being repeatedly traumatized and injured.

Terry Hill, a former angler, recalls: "On several occasions, I caught fish who had hooks actually embedded in their lips. What had happened was, earlier in that fish's life, a hook had been lost by a fisherman and had embedded itself in the fish's lip. As the fish had grown, the lip had actually grown over the hook. [in some cases,] the hook had actually been swallowed by the fish and become embedded in the fish's stomach. The fish was actually pulled out by the gut. The fisherman would normally become frustrated and would pull the hook out, actually pulling the fish's guts out through the mouth."(5)

Health Food?

Eating the flesh of fish causes health problems for people. Like the flesh of other animals, it contains excessive amounts of protein, fat, and cholesterol, and can cause food allergies. Naturally occurring toxins (e.g., "red tides") can even be fatal to humans.(6)

Fish (including shellfish) can accumulate extremely high levels of chemical residues, as much as 9 million times that of the water in which they live.(7) Fish flesh may store contaminants such as PCB's, strongly suspected of causing cancer, nervous system disorders, and fetal damage; dioxins, also linked to cancer; radioactive substances like strontium 90; and toxic metals like cadmium, mercury, lead, chromium, and arsenic, which can cause health problems ranging from kidney damage and impaired mental development to cancer.(8)

Commercial Carnage

Today's commercial fishers use vast "factory" trawlers the size of football fields and advanced electronic equipment and satellite communications to track fish. (Large operations also use airplanes or helicopters.) Huge nets, sometimes miles long, stretch accross the ocean, swallowing up everything in their path.

Factory trawlers are emptying the oceans of sea life at an alarming pace. Thirteen of the 17 major global fisheries are depleted or in serious decline. The other four are "overexploited" or "fully exploited."(9)

Nearly one-third of all species of fish have declined in population in the last 15 years and many species may be wiped out in the next decade.(10) The decline in fish populations is leading to increasing conflicts between fishers and wildlife who eat fish. Some fishers intentionally kill or maim seals, birds, and marine mammals whom they perceive as a threat to their catch. Some species are in decline as a result of overfishing. The number of Steller's sea lions in the Bering Sea has declined by 80 percent since the 1950s.(11) In areas of Scotland where sand eel fishing has now been banned due to overfishing, puffins and terns, whose diet is largely composed of sand eels, failed to produce any young between 1984 and 1987.(12)

Each day during fishing season, almost 1,700 ships worldwide set more than 20,000 miles of large-scale monofilament plastic gillnet, or driftnet, in the open ocean.(13) Much of this net is abandoned in the sea and kills countless animals beyond those it is intended to catch. An estimated 100,000 seals, whales, and porpoises and a million birds every year become entangled in nets and drown.(14) Because factory fishing nets are so vast, huge numbers of fish and other sea animals are caught "by mistake." Factory trawlers haul up tens of thousands of fish in one pull, keeping the most profitable and dumping the rest back. Each year, this adds up to half a billion pounds of dead and dying fish, a number equal to the combined fish catches of Japan and the U.S. in 1990.(15)

Because dolphins habitually swim with schools of yellowfin tuna, the tuna fishing industry "accidentally" drowns at least 20,000 of these sensitive, intelligent marine mammals in its nets annually.(16) Critically endangered sea turtles are killed incidentally by the thousands by shrimp trawlers.

Aquaculture, or fish farming, is now big business. In fact, most of the trout, catfish, and many other fish consumed in the U.S. are raised in fish factories. Factory-farmed fish are kept in shallow concrete troughs. The intensive crowding as many as five fish per square foot spreads infection and parasites, so, like their counterparts in the meat industry, factory fish farmers use antibiotics and growth hormones to get more fish fatter faster.(17)

What You Can Do

Awareness of the sentience of fish is growing. In Germany, the district court in Hamm fined two organizers of an angling contest for cruelty to animals. The judge noted that it's a sad statement about society if "fish are only considered some sort of sports equipment like a football."

Get hooked on compassion: Never buy or eat fish, and, instead of fishing, try hiking, canoeing, or bird watching.

References

Byron, Lord George Noel Gordon, Don Juan, 1818.

RSPCA Panel of Inquiry Into Shooting and Angling, Medway Report, 1976-79, para. 57.

The New York Times, July 14, 1988.

Medway Report, op. cit.

Hill, Terry, interview in "Angling: The Neglected Bloodsport," video from PISCES, U.K.

McDougall, John A., The McDougall Plan, 1983, p. 42.

Robbins, John, Diet for a New America, 1987, p. 331.

Brody, Jane E., "Safety Questions About Eating Fish," New York Times, June 12, 1991.

Matthews, Jessica, "Today's Catch and Tomorrow"s," The Washington Post, March 13, 1994.

"Fishing and Pollution Imperil Coastal Fish, Several Studies Find," New York Times, July 16, 1991.

Bernton, Hal, "Ecological Danger Signs in the "Mystical-Pribilofs," The Washington Post, July 12, 1994, p. A3.

White, Graham, "Overfishing Breaks Fragile Food Chain," July 10, 1994.

"Driftnets," Greenpeace Wildlife Series, 1987.

"Driftnet Carnage," Howl, Summer 1987.

"Global Fisheries : Amazing Facts," Greenpeace.

"Tuna Fishing Threatens Dolphins," Greenpeace Wildlife Series.

Clifton, Merritt, "Fish Farming," The Animals' Agenda, July/August 1991, p. 14.

I wouldn't read too much into what she said about next week's party. She may have just been making conversation, let's not forget that our ex's don't necessarily have an underlying motive/meaning to everything they say to us. Hard to keep that into perspective sometimes when we're driving ourselves up the wall analyzing everything. I have to literally tell myself "stop!" sometimes, or I'll drive myself nuts.

Thanks, I'm trying to stay focused on other things - like launching my freelance writing career - so that I can keep my emotions in check. Regarding your situation, I think it's a good sign that she asked if you're coming up the following weekend. There's such a fine line between all this...should we subtly "fight for our ex" or do the NC thing, or is NC actually a part of the fighting for your ex strategy...one thing is for sure, trying to keep your emotions under control (and stay somewhat sober! ) is needed no matter what you do.

I also like how you expounded upon the "everything happens for a reason" idea by clarifying that God has His plans, etc. I have always avoided the rather pat saying that everything happens for a reason, because I'm not so sure that's the case. I think we are largely in control of our own destiny, but lately I've been moving back to a more spiritual path, based on my Christian upbringing, so I am open to the idea that there may indeed be a Divine Plan. But we can't just sit back and wait to see what that is, we're a necessary participant in any Plan that is meant for us.

Yeah, I wouldn't sweat it at all. It could have been a lot worse, like what I did a week ago...had a major scene with the ex, me crying and telling him I hated him, and I was SOBER! I bit the bullet and left a message with him later in the day just to apologize and tell him the anger came out because I loved him, and I hoped that he would eventually contact me but I would leave him alone until he did. Well - I didn't hear from him for a week, and than (breaking the NC rule yet again) I called him the other day to see how he was. He has two people in his family who are really ill, so it was a legitimate reason to check up on him. Anyway, we talked briefly, he sounded kind of short, so I didn't stay on the phone too long. Surprisingly, he called me later in the afternoon to say "thanks" for the call AND for last week's call. He said he'd been thinking about me...long story short, we hooked up again last night. But, I was totally in control this morning and didn't say one word about the relationship. And when he left he said "I'll be seeing more of you." Whatever that means...but he did call me today to say hi...this is not exactly like any previous relationship I've had...I kind of started thinking maybe the no contact thing was too passive, and that I should fight for our relationship if I wanted him back, or at least not fade quietly away. I know he loved me, and still cares very much, and I guess I just am not ready to end things yet because it seems like there is at least a small possibility of us working things out. But he's being very, very cautious...

Hi Sugarplum - gosh, I can relate so much to what you're saying. I too, really felt like I enriched my ex's life and added some meaning to it, he totally walked away from it, though. It plain makes no sense, and it drives me nuts. And than you ask yourself...if he could be that stupid...that means I'm stupid because I liked him....my God! I liked a stupid guy! ...anyway, you can see that I'm still seething too. I appreciated your vent, very much, thanks for sharing it!

I don't think she should call him. He cheated on her, and that's the unforgiveable sin, in my book. And if he is playing that tactic, all the more reason to let him do the work if she really wants him back...it's his responsibility to make the efforts, here, not her's.

Unfortunately, this sounds like one of those situations where it's pretty obvious: this guy is indeed, scum. What a creep to leave messages for anyone to see bragging about his wild nights. I mean, that is just plain offensive, and if there is indeed a real person who he's referring to in those posts, she has zero standards if she's continuing to see him. Gross. Move on, girl...trust me, you can do MUCH better.

Lisa, you're so welcome!! Thanks for your past input on my situation as well. In the meantime, keep posting whenever you get a little "wave" because we're here for you!

You're dealing with a lot of stress in your life, right now. A lot is being asked of you - it sounds like you have to take on much of the day to day family problems because both of your parents are ill. So, you're sort of being asked to grow up faster than normal. But there is a real reason why you should hang in there - what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and better equipped for the challenges life presents us. Many people never learn survival skills, and it sounds like you're learning - fast. You are being tested rather at a young age in life, but I think you can meet the challenge. It sounds like you're a real achiever, 4.0 grades - Wow. That is impressive. It's understandable your grades are taking a dip at this difficult time, please don't take it too hard. Let your teachers know you are dealing with illness at home. Please don't ever be afraid to ask others for help, and and likewise, please don't ever forget to return the favor to other people you will meet in your life who are experiencing hard times.

This will pass, just do the best you can. That's all you can do anyway, right? We're here for you to talk to, anytime.