Are there really only real macho men and nice guys?

[GuiltyAsCharged]

I'm flogging the dead horse yet again by talking about the eternal fight between the whiny self-proclaimed nice-guys and the mega-confident wannabe-alphas.

 

Everyone seems to always talk about either REAL MEN and nice guys or jerks and nice guys. I was wondering what ever happened to the gray area between being a subhuman and being the best thing in the world or being aggresive and being wimpy.

 

There are guys who complain that women only want jerks and they fail because they are too nice and then there are guys who practically say that everyone who is not a stud is a submissive immature weak self-esteemed nice guy who is not actually nice but pure evil, because he isn't mega confident with the opposíte sex.

 

The thing is that before I started reading all this stuff I had a fairly posititive self-concept and healthy self-esteem, I used to think that I defended my rights and my opinions assertively and were social with some people and inhibited with others without that meaning that I was superior or inferior to anyone. I used to think that being introverted vs being extroverted wasn't such a black and white thing.

 

Now I'm becoming confused when before I explained my failures as "That specific girl doesn't like me either because of my personality or because of the lack of physical attraction, but it doesn't mean I am globally inferior and some can still like me" I now start suspecting that I am a nice guy girlie man submissive satan evil deceptive bottom of the barrel whopped child-like loser.

 

Having read all these modern bibles with absolute truths I could do what everyone else does and with my vast theorethical information become a "dating guru" and advice others how to be "real men and not wusses", but really, I DO NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE PLAYING GAMES AND COPYING MY EVERY MOVE FROM THE REAL MEN'S DATING BIBLE. Why can't I just be myself - an inexperienced yet still assertive male who has some flaws and some good qualities, but perhaps analyses stuff too much and is not the most socially gifted person on earth? Why can't I just go up to a girl I am interested in and tell her I like her and would like to get to know her better? Why do I have to instead use some stupid "c0cky and funny" humour that I don't find funny and pose as some alpha dude who I clearly am not.

 

Why don't they teach at school that if you don't immediately know if you are interested in someone based on looks alone you become sexually worthless to women? I keep reading stuff about the "friend zone" and the "ladder theory" that insist that if you fail to make a move on a girl very soon after the initial encounter then you get labeled as "unmanly immature weakling good only as a friend". And if you don't look everyone you pass by in the eyes you are weaker than them. Why should I socialize with everyone and have eye contact with every passer by? Why should I assert dominance over other people by ordering them around? Isn't this division of people into low status and high status the grossest form of inequality and discrimination?

 

Then the "nice guys" keep blabbering about how if you don't kiss everyones asses you are a JERK. If you don't give a girl flowers on the first date you are RUDE. If you do something superficially moral you are SUPERIOR to the immoral jerks.

 

 

Okay, here's the deal: I don't think I am better than others, I'm an ordinary person with both good and bad qualities. I don't want to harm other people and would like to do stuff rationally in a way that is mutually beneficial. On the other hand I refuse to be pushed around and will stand up for myself. I have both "nice guy" and "alpha male" qualities, but can someone tell me can an inbetween exist because I don't like neither of the extremes. Can a person form a loving relatioship without the pick up artist gimmicks and still not be a wimp?

[Tesseract_Witch]

I feel you have outpoured your very soul into this lengthy passage. Many of the classifications you specified were unfamiliar and rather mind-boggling to me. I don't see why now you will not accept your being who and what you are, having consulted a plethera of sources as you stated; if that many different ideals still don't seem right in your eyes, who is to say you are wrong? I can understand if you are afraid to be a "loner" with naught but his own cunning and stamina to rely upon, but who needs anyone else to lean on--you would fall into categorization of character anyway--and not a favorable one at that, I think.

[teacup]

i didn't really read ur post. but there is something that i did want to say.

 

for those nice guys out there, the ones who are nice. how would you feel about yourself and who you were as a person if you started treating women like crap and jerking them around? what would that say about ur value as a human being and how u perceive females? would that really be the type of person u would want to be? because if so.....then ur not really a nice guy afterall.

 

and to the jerks...u might still be able to get women, women who have issues, women who accept being treated badly out of fear, women who are hurting and will take what u dish out. but that sort of behavior is scummy, inappropriate, disgusting, and very low. i dont know how you sleep at night, but there is nothing about being a jerk that i can respect. and for that, im sorry that u have such little humanity as to treat another human being that way. i pity your soul and lack of respect for how beautiful relationships really can be.

 

that is why i find this whole jerk/nice guy debate to be really pointless.

[RayKay]

Okay, here's the deal: I don't think I am better than others, I'm an ordinary person with both good and bad qualities. I don't want to harm other people and would like to do stuff rationally in a way that is mutually beneficial. On the other hand I refuse to be pushed around and will stand up for myself. I have both "nice guy" and "alpha male" qualities, but can someone tell me can an inbetween exist because I don't like neither of the extremes. Can a person form a loving relatioship without the pick up artist gimmicks and still not be a wimp?

 

Did you read the new sticky on the main page? Other people have made similar comments to what you have.

 

 

In my opinion - you should be true to yourself and the guy you are. You sound pretty good to me!

 

That does not mean every girl would go for that, but the ones whom would match you WOULD, and ultimately, wouldn't you rather be whom you are and be comfortable being that person for life, without having to worry about being challenging enough etc to keep them interested?

 

Of course in between exists, I think those whom are either extreme are rather rare actually, and in fact also rather incomplete in themselves.

 

For the record, my boyfriend is a very sensitive, sweet guy. He is compassionate, caring, respectful and loving. He also is independent, and is his own individual person. He would never let me or others walk all over him. For me, he is perfect

[Sylph]

The fundamental problem here is that people are trying to devide other people into one-size-fits-all categories. This is not how the world works. There are no innately 'nice guys', just like there are no innately 'jerkish' guys. People are just people, everyone is capiable of being a wonderful person at one moment and scum of the earth another time.

 

The problem is people will conform... if a couple of people think that romance and dating is a "game" and that people can be filed and stored then other people will generally follow. Inturn spend their time trying to change themselves to fit into the mould of certain types of people.

 

In short, it's all crap.

 

And sadly it seems to be most prominent in America, I feel for those people stuck deep inside a communities that thinks all these things are the correction way to live.

[RayKay]

Can I also add that I have looked at many of those ladder theories, and PUA sites, and I find most of them disgusting in their attitudes of women. Most of them assume we are pretty hapless, weak and shallow, and we need to be taught what is best. Many of them seem to bring us back to being Adam's Rib, where man is created for God, and women created for Man.

 

On the flip side, I think many self proclaimed nice guys have an artifical niceness, where they are no longer true to themselves - but check out that sticky for more detail on this.

[GuiltyAsCharged]

I've read the sticky, but not all it's posts. It seemed to speak about what I already thought - that faking to be nice isn't really being very nice. There are dozens of material explaining the dysfunctionality of the nice guy archetype. However I haven't found too many people criticizing the pick up artist stuff which I personally find as disturbing as the nice guy phenomenon.

 

Sylph and RayKay I found your posts very helpful because that is exactly what I have been thinking about all the time. This dating "game" and pigeon holing everyone does really suck. And I don't think faking becomes any more comfortable after the relationship is formed and you never really become intimate, I feel like I've been cheating the very core of myself when I've tried to mold myself to be this artificial concept of real man because they ultimately boil down to individual and cultural perceptions of what is and what isn't masculine/mature/moral.

[RayKay]

RayKay, can i just ask u a quick question...not meaning to trail off the topic here...but just really quikc question:

 

you say ur boyfriend doesnt allow others to walk all over him..i.e. he sticks up for himself if someone IS walking all over him...can i just ask, do u think most women like/prefer men who stick up for themselves? I.e. go down with a fight? Just wanna ask cos i am 15 and go to school and am picked on quite a bit. and i sometimes decide to go down with a fight. sometimes i experiment by not going down with a fight. which is better? thx.

 

I think basically you need to have a backbone, but this does not always mean throwing back at them what they throw at you.

 

For example, if they are insulting you, a intelligent retort, or a smile and head shake (you know one of those that says "you are so immature, I won't even waste my time" kind of looks) can be much more effective. If you can show you are comfortable with yourself, and whom you are, you become less attractive as a target for them. They want reactions.

 

Here is an example.

 

My brother is gay, and came out when he was in high school. A few kids picked on him for it. One day he was walking through the hall when one of his bullies said something like "ew, I think he is CHECKING ME OUT". My brother looked at him, lifted his eyebrow quizzically and put on his best "stereoptypically gay persona" and said "honey....you are so not my type and I would never even bother going so beneath myself". The guy turned red and his own friends laughed at him. He was also never picked on again.

 

Honestly, in my experience high school is terrible for it's cliques, and how it perpetuates cruelty to other human beings in general. The good news is it's over in a couple years and things get better

[RayKay]

Trust me, I criticized the PUA stuff often! I think it is just as artificial and desperate as the "nice guy phenomenon".

 

And most women are very aware when they are a "target".

 

It may have limited success in getting one to "score" but it sure is lacking when it comes to establishing healthy, respectful relationships. It's just as bad as "The Rules" was for the women. "The Rules" demonstrated how to get a man to commit, but of course, not how to actually have a healthy partnership (both writers are now divorced by the way). PUA techniques may teach how to score - but it overestimates the quality of the interaction, and again, does not give a man the true power of being himself and being able to maintain a relationship beyond the coat check room of some bar

[Dating Coach]

I think you are reading too much into things. Of course there are gray areas but that has little to do with the problem. You can always improve and the ultimate goal is to become a very self confident, self respecting, gentleman.

[novaseeker]

Here's my take on all of this: Be yourself.

 

There isn't a one-size-fits-all approach to women, men, relationships, sex, commitment, communication, etc. There isn't. We live in an age where we are taught by our self-help culture that there is a "system" to everything, from how we run our careers, to our relationships, to our children. But honestly, it's an illusion. The most important things are: (1) knowing yourself (i.e., your strengths, weaknesses, goals and needs) and (2) being true to yourself (i.e., not selling yourself short by compromising your own needs and goals, and not trying to be someone you are not).

 

You don't have to be a "macho" guy to be attractive to women. Do *some* women find that attractive? Of course! But do *all* women find it attractive? Not at all. Not hardly. If you're not naturally the macho type, find a woman who isn't into macho types. Simple enough.

 

I mean, some of the stuff from these self-appointed "gurus" is harmless but obvious as well, and equally applicable to men and women: be confident in yourself (good for everyone, really), don't be a doormat, stand up for your own needs and your own situation. That's all good advice that falls under the rubric of "taking care of yourself". But beyond that, your persona is your own: know it, and find someone who is compatible with it, because there are women out there who are compatible with all kinds of different personas.

[Daddy Bear]

i agree with Sylph in that there is too much categorization of people into convenient 'types'. however, i take exception to this comment sadly it seems to be most prominent in America, I feel for those people stuck deep inside a communities that thinks all these things are the correction way to live.that sounds like someone who has never spent a single day here, and i would like to hear what experience that pronouncement is based upon.

[Sylph]

American TV.

 

Now before you lay into me let me explain. The source of problem is TV, every day it projects images of how people are supposed to look and act in society. It also suggests that if you do anything any differently then you're wrong and should be shunned. Now assuming this is true and by watching American TV as well as any other given broad casting in another country I hope you won't find me wrong that American TV protrays these images more readily. Now I'm not saying this doesn't happen anywhere, because it does, I notice it all the time when watching UK TV. And yeah, I do watch American programming, I get access to those channels with my setup.

 

This isn't a personal or political attack, I'm not saying 'zOMG, death to America'. This is an observation I've made.

[Daddy Bear]

ok, i'll buy that. the tv that i watch is not a perfect mirror image of the reality that i perceive. thanks for clearing that up, Sylph.

[Andy223]

I have both "nice guy" and "alpha male" qualities, but can someone tell me can an inbetween exist because I don't like neither of the extremes. Can a person form a loving relatioship without the pick up artist gimmicks and still not be a wimp?

 

being a "nice guy" as in being funny, having a good personality, and being "alpha male" and successful is the ticket. You are being the best of both worlds.

[Daddy Bear]

The coolest thing ever would be if none of this existed. And that everything was like simple. I mean, there would just be fields and we go skipping through fields wearing daisy chains n stuff. And the pollen grains would drift through the air and stuff. And everything was happy.

that's a little bit out there, but i actually agree. everything that moves gets analyzed to death nowadays.