Nice guys don't exist!!!

[I_love_rain_hugs_and_you]

What bothers me is the holier than thou attitude some people seem to have when they date. That "hey, I'm better than you because I don't just use girls for sex" and other similar attitudes. True some people are virgins...but does that make you better??? Its this attitude that bothers me!!!! This attitude that so called "nice guys" are morally superior to so called "jerks." The fact is that all of us have faults, and we should not compare ourselves to others. In fact the whole definition of a "nice guy" is an act of comparing oneself to an allegedly un nice guys. Comparisons are dumb. Its this attitude of comparison and moral superiority that bothers me!!!

 

Guys who feel they are nice guys who are being ripped of by "jerks" need to stop feeling sorry for themself and start doing something useful with thier lives (ie. study, volunteer time with children, elderly, disabled, ect). Get of that lazy bum and be real!!! ADMIT your faults. You know, girls don't like guys who have some morally superior attitude. They want guys who are honest about thier weaknesses. This doesn't mean admitting every single fault all the time. But be honest with girls about where you are weak. Admit your mistakes. That you are not nice all the time. Because no one is. Girls want honesty.

[corvidae]

It's a matter of semantics and want you mean by 'nice guy'. No one is saying that there are two types of men in the world: the 'nice guys' and 'jerks', and all 'jerks' are evil and all 'nice guys' are angels. What people are saying is that they find that if they look at their own life experiences with women and who the women they know date, they see a pattern whereby men who treat women in a way they see as disrespectful are often more successful than men who are, in terms of their dealings with women, more empathic, sensitive and gentlemanly. Such a view says nothing, nor does it claim to, about the morals of the men in question in any other aspect of their lives. The reason people make these generalisations and use terms such as 'jerk' and 'nice guy' is simply so that rather than have to go though explaining it like this, which takes time, people usually just say 'why do women prefer 'jerks'' and mostly people reading that will understand what they mean and what they are referring too.

 

Case study: When it comes to discussing relationships I would class myself as a 'nice guy' and my friend Paul as a 'jerk'. This does NOT mean I feel I am perfect and he is terrible in a general sense. If I look at other aspects of both our lives we both have faults and we both have virtues, but that is beside the point. When I say 'jerk' I mean that he cheats on his girlfriends, sometimes he repeatedly cheats on the same girl who keeps coming back to him believing he can change only to be heartbroken again. He will often tell a girl he loves her, but then be easily lured away by another girl because she is more physically attractive. He will often be with someone just because he doesn't want to be alone. That is why I class him as a 'jerk' when it comes to women. Because I would never do any of those things he does, and because I have strong ethics about such benhaviour, I class myself as a 'nice guy'. Am I perfect? Good God no! It's merely a semantic tool I use to differentiate the way he and I treat women.

 

incidentally, Paul is very successful with women whereas I am not. A pattern emerges?

[corvidae]

Guys who feel they are nice guys who are being ripped of by "jerks" need to stop feeling sorry for themself and start doing something useful with thier lives (ie. study, volunteer time with children, elderly, disabled, ect). Get of that lazy bum and be real!!! ADMIT your faults.

 

There's a strange recurring pattern in these threads that posters often assume the most negative things about other people with little or no evidence. Take the above quote. What on earth is that about? The poster immediately assumes that any man suggesting that women prefer 'jerks' is lazy, does none of the activities he lists and does not admit their faults. Precisely who is he addressing is beyond me. The people reading that post, many of whom will class themselves as 'nice guys' will be a mix of all sorts of people and personalities. I for one am doing a PhD, work out regularly, do martial arts, have been a director/write/actor in theatre group, volunteered on a phone service for troubled people, am a member of Amnesty International, and teach undergraduate students lab. skills. I'm sure other 'nice guys' on this thread are just, if not more, proactive and involved with interests and hobbies. Why assume because someone has a genuine complaint with the world, that they must be lazy whingers?

[pchellak]

I_love_rain_hugs_and_you,

I dont think you get the concept of the 'nice guy' at all. Nice guys who complain in the forums, are not the guys who claim that they are morally superior. Rather, they are the guys whom the girls claim to be 'nice' and would not date them for that very reason.

Most girls want a guy who will 'cuss' , pick up fights, treat people like s***, are highly competitive ... etc.

[ShySoul]

A true nice guy doesn't go around complaining he doesn't get girls or putting down jerks. He goes about doing what is right simply because it is right. In the end he is the one who comes out ahead and thats all the reward or recognition he'll ever need. Not to say it isn't depressing when it appears like jerks get ahead, but the true nice guy doesn't let that get him down for long. He picks himself up and realizes that he's better for being the person he is and has to stay true to himself. ]

 

A true nice guy doesn't claim to be morally superior, he is modest about himself. He sees that no one is superior, that we are all equal and have the same potential. The difference is that a nice guy doesn't feel the need to be in your face about things. Jerks on the other hand, feel the need to let people know about what they can do, the nice guy just goes ahead and does it without needing recognition. Nice guys tend to actualize more of there potential because they see that true strength and growth comes from being kind, respectful, and jsut nice to others. Helping others is the biggest way to improve ourselves.

 

A nice guy doesn't compae himself to others, he compares himself to himself and the vision of the person he feels he should be. I've sort of taken on the mentle of speaking on behalf of nice guys, because I've gotten tired of nice guys not having a voice. I proudly call my self a nice guy. I have been attacked by "jerks" and guys who try to cut down my ideas. But don't feel I am better then them. I just see things differently and won't back down from who I am. I know that I am not perfect, admit it, and try to work on my faults. I am doing things useful with my life. I am about to graduate with a 3.9 GPA so I've put alot of time into studying. I am community service officer for a club so I do plenty of volunteer work. And the top quality I've always said about a true nice guy is honesty and admitting our faults. It is the "jerks" who talk about playing games and holding things back, not being completely honest or admitting there mistakes.

 

I say this clearly: NO ONE IS SUPERIOR. Everyone has the same potential. It's just that in generally nice guys, true nice guys, treat people better. But all to often the nice guy gets taken advantage of because he is nice and because others are only interested in what they want. Or these "jerks" try to put the nice guy down to make himself feel better. If that happens enough, even the strongest of us will feel hurt and discouraged. Then a nice guy will need to vent and express how he is feeling. It's not that he feels he is better, its that he is tired of feeling like nothing goes right even when he is doing the right things. He lets his frustrations get the best of him, showing he is not perfect, and generalizes about girls going for jerks. But he should realize that this isn't true and that nice guys not only finish first, they finish best.

[Shidoshi]

Very well spoken Corvidae. The terms "nice guy" and "bad guy" have been taken out of context......period.

[I_love_rain_hugs_and_you]

The fact is that almost every single guy who wants to find a girlfriend will find one. In other words, as long as you are not gay, you will probably find a girlfriend (and remember even some gay guys have girlfriends before, but I won't get into that...). When it comes to finding a girlfriend, every guy is a winner. Its not like playing the lotto, where only a few people win and most lose. Every guy who wants a girlfriend will find one. Its just that some people find a girlfriend sooner than others. So if you want a girlfriend and haven't found one yet, then you shouldn't be inpatient. You WILL find a girlfriend, sooner or later, and it will probably be sooner than you think. But whining about nice guys being sideswiped by "jerks" is a waste of time and does more to inhibibit your chances of finding a girlfriend soon than it does to improve them. Now say that the girlfriend you want it is like a yummy buffet. There is a line up, and you like everyone else, has to wait a little while before you eat. Sure, a few "jerks" might cut in line...all of us would want to. But would you whine about it like a three year old? Or would you look ahead to the prize? The girl is the price, and when you find her, you will find that she was worth waiting for.

[corvidae]

You're simplifying the situation far too much. The fact of the matter is that getting a girlfriend is nothing like waiting your turn in a queue. It's based on many interlinked and complicated factors to do with your own characteristics, the characteristics of the women you are after and also certain societal constraints. A 30 year old man who's never had a girlfriend is probably doing something 'wrong' as regards one of those factors. To tell him that it's a matter of time and he doesn't need to change is silly, and will lead to him becoming a 50 year old, 80 year old and then a dead man that has never had a girlfriend. If you have a problem, not just with women, but really any sort of problem, the best thing to do is to analyze the causes and try to sort it out. There are people on these forums who are almost forty and who have never had a relationship. Will they have one at 50? Well so what if they do? The end result does not make up for all those previous years. Do you want to be one of them?

 

We analyze relationships and make observations about women's behaviour, such as the observation that women prefer 'jerks', so that we can better understand them. There is an element of complaint, but then to vent your frustrations and to talk about problems is healthy, and is why we have these forums. To say that to complain about an issue is 'whinning like a three year old' is an exceptionally tactless, useless and poorly thought out comment. It is only through determination and being proactive that we solve our problems. No one would suggest that someone that had been unemployed for twenty years didn't have a problem, or that they shouldn't analyse what they were doing 'wrong', and the same applies to relationships.

 

It is quite feasible to spend your whole life and never have a relationship. In fact it's easier. This nonsense about everybody finding someone is, well, nonsense. It is quite possible you will spend the rest of your life alone.

[spatzcolumbo]

Shysoul,

 

or putting down jerks

 

just a thought, but calling someone a 'jerk' is kidna putting them down from the start!!

 

As Corvidae keeps saying, you can't simplify these things into just a few words - it is all so much more complex than that!!

 

You might think someone is a jerk, but i might consider them a really nice guy. At the same time, someone you consider to be a really nice guy, i might find reason to call a 'jerk'

[Mun]

Someone made a good point about how we should analyze why some guys don't have girlfriends. We can complain all we want about looks, but truth is I've seen ugly people in relationship too.. so we can't exactly say " Im single cuz I'm ugly"

 

If we figure out the WHY maybe we can do something about the HOW ( to get a gf)

[ShySoul]

Your right muneca, its the why we need to look at. I think generally the why is because the person simply haven't found someone with whom they share that level of connection with. It isn't about looks, money, status, "game," etc. It's mainly about timing and finding someone with whom a relationship is possible. I think the how to get a girlfriend is simple: be yourself, be a friend, and if you are right for each and its meant to be then it will happen. Relationships aren't something to get, there something that happens.

 

spatz,

 

I think I've made it clear in past posts what I mean by jerk. I mean someone who uses other, places themselves first, intentionally pulls away or plays mindgames, etc. I just don't feel like having a paragraph each time to explain that so I use the word jerk to save time. Most people on here should know what I mean by now and everyone else should be able to figure out my main points from the rest of what I say. And I'll also say again that its not the person who is the jerk so much as it is that they are doing jerk-like actions. Love the sinner hate the sin, don't hate the player hate the game.

 

I think it is pretty simple once you get clear what a true nice guy is and what a true jerk is. The whole argument really stems from misconceptions of what those terms mean. When people say nice guy all to often they think things like: whimp, no confidence, geek, inexperienced, overly sensitive, clingy, desparate, etc. Thats not a nice guy. As I've mentioned before a true nice guy is merely someone who constantly treats others with respect, places the needs of others first, and does the right thing for no other reason then because it is the right thing. On the other hand a jerk is viewed as being: confident, strong, wanting and getting everything his way. But when you think about it, people who best be described as jerks are like bullies, weak individuals who make themselves appear to be strong just to mask their own insecurites. Once you see those misconceptions, the entire debate takes on a whole new light.

 

I get that one person may appear to be nice to one person and a jerk to another. I see that all the time, especially being the quiet one I hear everyones opinions that they speak behind each others backs. Usually when someone calls someone else a jerk its because of a misunderstanding or a bad experience with the person that could be explained in some other logical way, eg. the person was having a rough day. Were all good people at heart, its just that some people tend to not be as nice or respectful to others, for whatever reason. When they do jerk-like actions repeatedly, then it is fair to label them a jerk because that is how they act.

[ShySoul]

I_love_rain_hugs_and_you,

 

Read what I wrote earlier. It's not that people are whining, it's that they are frustrating and are venting. When nothing seems to go your way, its only natural that you get frustrated. A little emotional outburst is healthy. I'm sure the vast majority of people aren't sitting around all the time saying only jerks get girlfriends. In my experience the thought crosses your mind when your upset over something, stays there for awhile until you cool down, then you realize that "jerks" are the ones who lose out in the end and that being a nice is not a weakness but your greatest strength.

[Shinobie]

But its a fact that people look at looks at least for the deciding factor.There are some girls that are really ugly and i can see that and i can see that prolly about myself.Nobody wants to go out with somebody who is pretty darn ugly.And thats what i see myself as so i shouldnt really care though now back to music

[ShySoul]

There are some girls that are really ugly and i can see that and i can see that prolly about myself.Nobody wants to go out with somebody who is pretty darn ugly.

 

Whose to say what is ugly or not? Someone you find unattractive I could find gorgeous. No one wants to go out with someone who is ugly, which is why they go for someone beautiful. But what a person finds to be beautiful varies.

[Shinobie]

Ya i find people who people find ugly pretty darn gorgeous too.

[Mun]

The last guy I dated, his ex wife told him he was ugly, he believed he was ugly. I didn't think he was ugly, I loved him. I wanted to be with him the rest of my life.

 

I think he really felt un-lovable..or maybe afraid to be rejected again? He didn't allow himself to get too close to anyone. He acted a bit arrogant at times ( overcompensating maybe?) and so his attitude made him un-lovable . It became a self-fulfilling prophesy .

 

Don't let this happen to you. What you believe of yourself you will make true.

 

If I shut myself in a hole because I felt un-worthy other people would start to believe it too.

[its_just_me1607307236]

Okay....I read everyone's comments and want to give you some more food for thought.

 

* People are not who they appear to be. They are who they are. People can project anything they want to get what they want or behave in a certain way and you can 'know' them for what they show the world, but that might not be their 'authentic self'.

 

* Some of the most beautiful people I know are more beautiful on the inside than on the outside.

 

* The true 'test' of a person's persona, if you will, is how others view them, not how they view themself. If someone tells you I am REALLY a nice person....watch out.

* ALWAYS trust your gut. If you think something done or said doesn't seem to 'jive' don't dismiss it because you think the person is a 'nice' person.

 

One last pearl of wisdom I want to impart is a hard lesson I just learned. I thought a good friend of mine was one of the nicest and MOST honest people I knew. I could not have been more wrong. This person was a camelion. I found out after it was too late. Everything that I thought this person was, was an outright lie. I was hurt because I felt given our level of friendship there was no need or reason to not be honest. I was never so wrong. The topper is this person owes me money and swore it would be paid back which was also a lie since I have to file in small claims court to collect the debt. I guess George Castanza had it right, 'it's not a lie if you believe it'.

 

me

[ShySoul]

it's_just_me,

 

Nice advice. I pretty much agree. Just some other thoughts to add on:

 

* "A person isn't who they are in the last conversation you had, they are who they've been in your entire relationship." People can project certain images of themselves, but they can't hid their "authentic self" forever. It shows through. Be aware of that and pay attention to who the person is at all times, don't be caught up in who he is at certain moments, but who he is in general.

 

*True beauty is within. Most true statement you'll ever here.

 

*A truly nice person doesn't feel the need to say he or she is nice, their actions speak for them. Though it is vital for the person to believe he is a nice and good person so he won't give up or feel discouraged about himself. But it is also possible for people to convince themselves they are nice when they are not, or to use being nice as a way of getting what they want. Again, be aware of who the person is in general, you should be able to usually tell the difference. That's the difference between someone who cares about appearing nice, and someone who is truly nice.

 

* Trust your gut is right. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... it's a duck. Be careful. But don't get so suspicious that you expect someone to appear nice but not really be nice. There are plenty of nice people out there who are how they appear. Don't go to the extreme of dismissing rude comments because he is "nice" but don't go to the other extreme of assuming the person is faking being nice and wants something out of it.

[Mun]

*A truly nice person doesn't feel the need to say he or she is nice, their actions speak for them.

 

So, so true. I have a friend who tells me.." I'm so nice blah blah".. and she has made comments at times that just floor me. Now I'm just really cautious with her.

[its_just_me1607307236]

Unfortunately, there are some lessons that cannot be learned by reading a book or listening to someone recount their experiences, BUT once you learn about deception, lying, whatever term you want to use, it is a lesson that you will always remember. Loosing your 'innocence' is tough, but it is a part of growing up. That doesn't mean holding on to negative feelings. Take the lesson; leave the experience. I'd like to think that what goes round comes around. You get out of life what you put into it.

 

I think the word 'nice' is a relative term. That being said, I think there are some very nice people in this world, but it is balanced by the not so nice ones. That just makes us appreciate the nice ones all the more!!!

[ShySoul]

I don't think you have to lose your innocence. Growing up means becoming more aware of things but you can still keep the wide eyed innocence of a child. It's finding the balance between naive and gullible, and bitter and cynical.