Dehumanizatiton.

[waveseer]

Very profound words in bold, and I agree wholeheartedly that this is how it works for many people. So, in what way are you honoring the one you love when you remind her (even gently) in which ways she is not matching your physical ideal?

[Lucius]

Very profound words in bold, and I agree wholeheartedly that this is how it works for many people. So, in what way are you honoring the one you love when you remind her (even gently) in which ways she is not matching your physical ideal?

 

This is my response to your question: it honours both of us to share in the nature of our partner - even when it's uncomfortable for our egos to do so. It honours me to know what she likes, because it's a sharing. It honours her to know what I like for the very same reason. Dishonour arises when the sharing becomes imposed, rather than engaged in. Respect and sensitivity is always key, as is understanding the emotional needs and disposition of one's partner.

[WomanWriter]

On the flip side, if you really loved your partner, you would not expect her to

do something like this.

 

If I don't get a breast implant for a partner, that has nothing to do with loving him. I wouldn't want to be with anyone who would expect it of me.

Not if I was a person with self respect. The point is not the breast implant...it's them expecting me to do somethingfor THEM that I personally don't value.

 

BTW, the difference for me is EXPECTATION vs. PREFERENCE. If someone just prefers something, I will consider it. But if they expect it, I won't because it's a demand/condition as opposed to unconditional love.

 

Women dress to please their men all the time. I know a girl who got breast enlargement just to please her boyfriend. These things are trivial compared to other things women - who are in love - will do to please their men.

 

.

[Imprecision]

On the flip side, if you really loved your partner, you would not expect her to

do somethnig like this.

 

If I don't get a breast implant for a partner, that has nothing to do with loving him. I wouldn't want to be with anyone who would expect it of me.

Not if I was a person with self respect.

 

Well, you can't deny the fact that many, many women do this for their partners.

 

The question is not whether they should do this, or whether their partners should ask them to do this - but why do they do this?

 

The answer is the solution to the OP's hypothetical problem.

[Imprecision]

BTW, the difference for me is EXPECTATION vs. PREFERENCE. If someone just prefers something, I will consider it. But if they expect it, I won't because it's a demand/condition as opposed to unconditional love.

 

Well, I assumed, in the OP's question, that it was a preference, not an expectation.

[WomanWriter]

Well, you can't deny the fact that many, many women do this for their partners.

 

The question is not whether they should do this, or whether their partners should ask them to do this - but why do they do this?

 

The answer is the solution to the OP's hypothetical problem.

 

I think they do it because they are disrespecting themselves. I let my ex tell me what to do, so that was my own fault. But still, it was not good of him either.

[Imprecision]

I think they do it because they are disrespecting themselves. I let my ex tell me what to do, so that was my own fault. But still, it was not good of him either.

 

Well, it's your prerogative to see them as "disrespecting" themselves.

 

But they probably don't see it this way.

[WomanWriter]

Well, it's your prerogative to see them as "disrespecting" themselves.

 

But they probably don't see it this way.

 

If they didn't see it that way, there would not be this thread and there would be no conflict of interest. People would have no problem doing whatever the other person wanted, but obviously that's not the case, even if they go along with it.

[Imprecision]

If they didn't see it that way, there would not be this thread and there would be no conflict of interest. People would have no problem doing whatever the other person wanted, but obviously that's not the case, even if they go along with it.

 

Some people see it as "disrespecting themselves," while others see it as "pleasing their partners."

 

For instance, one girl I know asked her boyfriend several times whether he would like her to get a breast implant. In the end, he said no - because, even though it would look better, the touch would be different.

 

But she was obviously into it. She took pleasure in pleasing her man.

 

A man asks a woman not to cut her hair - Some women would resent this, whereas other women would be pleased.

 

The question is: Why the different reactions?

 

My solution is - In the former case, the woman does not completely trust the man. In the latter case, the woman trusts the man - She has completely fallen in love with him.

[Seraphim]

Some people see it as "disrespecting themselves," while others see it as "pleasing their partners."

 

For instance, one girl I know asked her boyfriend several times whether he would like her to get a breast implant. In the end, he said no - because, even though it would look better, the touch would be different.

 

But she was obviously into it. She took pleasure in pleasing her man.

 

A man asks a woman not to cut her hair - Some women would resent this, whereas other women would be pleased.

 

The question is: Why the different reactions?

 

My solution is - In the former case, the woman does not completely trust the man. In the latter case, the woman trusts the man - She has completely fallen in love with him.

 

It has nothing to do with trust. Trust and love having nothing to do with telling a person how to be when they do not want to be it.

[WomanWriter]

My solution is - In the former case, the woman does not completely trust the man. In the latter case, the woman trusts the man - She has completely fallen in love with him.

 

OR the change he/she is requesting is not something that the woman really cares about in the first place. Did you ever consider that the woman maybe doesn't even really care about getting a breast implant? Maybe it doesn't even bother her, not because she "trusts her man," but because it's not a deal breaker.

 

With your logic, then, a woman would hypothetically jump off a cliff for her boyfriend.

 

A person has to have a bottom line. For some women, breast implants may not be that big of a deal. But if you asked her to shave her head and paint her face blue, I doubt it.

[waveseer]

This is my response to your question: it honours both of us to share in the nature of our partner - even when it's uncomfortable for our egos to do so. It honours me to know what she likes, because it's a sharing. It honours her to know what I like for the very same reason. Dishonour arises when the sharing becomes imposed, rather than engaged in. Respect and sensitivity is always key, as is understanding the emotional needs and disposition of one's partner.

 

Good answer. I hope this topic will serve as enlightenment for those who need it that their partner might not want to hear their preferences at the time they are making decisions about their appearance and maybe their partner would rather reserve the preference discussions for other circumstances lest they be mistaken for attempts to mold them into an ideal.

[Imprecision]

Also, it does not have to be about appearance.

 

For instance, I know this one girl (actually, a cousin of mine), who resented school as a kid. She never studied. She never read. She certainly would not have done extra-curricular studying or reading on her own initiative.

 

Then came a man. She fell in love with him. He was a serious man - stern, authoritative, not talkative. Within a few weeks of knowing him, she started reading textbooks on her own all the time.

 

Some women give up their nationality, ancestry, or family for their men.

 

It's natural for a woman to change herself for a man - if she's in love.

 

Resentment is never over specific differences in opinion. It is about the underlying dynamic. The underlying dynamic is - How in love is she with him? This question is also - Does she doubt him?

[Imprecision]

OR the change he/she is requesting is not something that the woman really cares about in the first place. Did you ever consider that the woman maybe doesn't even really care about getting a breast implant? Maybe it doesn't even bother her, not because she "trusts her man," but because it's not a deal breaker.

 

She was enthusiastic about it.

With your logic, then, a woman would hypothetically jump off a cliff for her boyfriend.

 

A person has to have a bottom line. For some women, breast implants may not be that big of a deal. But if you asked her to shave her head and paint her face blue, I doubt it.

 

Hmm, you have a point.

 

There might be limits.

[WomanWriter]

That's ridiculous. Some women change because they WANT to, not because the man expects them to. That's my whole point. If they do it because they WANT to, they aren't changing for their partners, they're changing for themselves.

 

When they do something that only their partner wants...and EXPECTS, that is where the disrespect comes into play. Big difference.

 

 

 

Also, it does not have to be about appearance.

 

For instance, I know this one girl (actually, a cousin of mine), who resented school as a kid. She never studied. She never read. She certainly would not have done extra-curricular studying or reading on her own initiative.

 

Then came a man. She fell in love with him. He was a serious man - stern, authoritative, not talkative. Within a few weeks of knowing him, she started reading textbooks on her own all the time.

 

Some women give up their nationality, ancestry, or family for their men.

 

It's natural for a woman to change herself for a man - if she's in love.

 

Resentment is never over specific differences in opinion. It is about the underlying dynamic. The underlying dynamic is - How in love is she with him? This question is also - Does she doubt him?

[Seraphim]

Also, it does not have to be about appearance.

 

For instance, I know this one girl (actually, a cousin of mine), who resented school as a kid. She never studied. She never read. She certainly would not have done extra-curricular studying or reading on her own initiative.

 

Then came a man. She fell in love with him. He was a serious man - stern, authoritative, not talkative. Within a few weeks of knowing him, she started reading textbooks on her own all the time.

 

Some women give up their nationality, ancestry, or family for their men.

 

It's natural for a woman to change herself for a man - if she's in love.

 

Resentment is never over specific differences in opinion. It is about the underlying dynamic. The underlying dynamic is - How in love is she with him? This question is also - Does she doubt him?

A woman should change who she is because she fell in love with someone?? A bit presumptious isn't it? It is natural???? Why ? Are our own personalities and interests and opinions less than a man's?? Whoa

[agent1607307371]

It's natural for a woman to change herself for a man - if she's in love.

?

 

 

As a woman, I am saying it is not.

 

Everytime I've known a woman who has changed herself for a man, and a man only, it has been because she is insecure and wants to "keep" him.

[Imprecision]

That's ridiculous. Some women change because they WANT to, not because the man expects them to. That's my whole point. If they do it because they WANT to, they aren't changing for their partners, they're changing for themselves.

 

When they do something that only their partner wants...and EXPECTS, that is where the disrespect comes into play. Big difference.

 

Well, what if it's because the man likes a particular style of outfit, and the woman starts wearing that style everyday?

 

What would be your analysis of this?

[WomanWriter]

This thread is starting to scare me because my ex used that logic to justify telling me what to do. He said I didn't "trust" him if I didn't do what he wanted. I could never get him to understand otherwise. This feels like a justification for abuse!

[waveseer]

Also, it does not have to be about appearance.

 

For instance, I know this one girl (actually, a cousin of mine), who resented school as a kid. She never studied. She never read. She certainly would not have done extra-curricular studying or reading on her own initiative.

 

Then came a man. She fell in love with him. He was a serious man - stern, authoritative, not talkative. Within a few weeks of knowing him, she started reading textbooks on her own all the time.

 

Some women give up their nationality, ancestry, or family for their men.

 

It's natural for a woman to change herself for a man - if she's in love.

 

Resentment is never over specific differences in opinion. It is about the underlying dynamic. The underlying dynamic is - How in love is she with him? This question is also - Does she doubt him?

 

And I will quote my opening post...

 

"Definition of dehumanization: To deprive of human qualities such as individuality, compassion, or civility."

 

Is that what you think women should be willing to do for the man they love, give up their individuality?

[Wolf_22]

For example: When my partner tells me not to cut my hair because he likes it better long I feel dehumanized, like he cares more about my hair than he does about my happiness.

 

I think you might be over analyzing a bit.

 

For example, are we really talking about your partner's reaction toward you cutting your hair, or are we instead talking about your partner confining you to a basement cellar where their way is the only way or else you get no food or water...? See me?

 

Now on the other hand, if, for example, this "partner" is using sex as a weapon to make you comply with the wish of not cutting your hair, then you may have a relationship problem--but a dehumanizing problem!?--I think not...

[WomanWriter]

Well, what if it's because the man likes a particular style of outfit, and the woman starts wearing that style everyday?

 

What would be your analysis of this?

 

She wants to please you BUT most likely doesn't have any problem with the style so sees no problem taking your suggestion (so she is, again, doing it for herself because she feels good with the suggestion...she's not just doing it to please you at her expense)...OR

 

She is wishy washy and hasn't let learned how to respect her own needs.

[Seraphim]

Love and trust have nothing to do with making someone be how you want them to be. That is called control. Control is not love.

[Lucius]

Everytime I've known a woman who has changed herself for a man, and a man only, it has been because she is insecure and wants to "keep" him.

 

Well said. Positive change comes from a self-motivated desire. Change that comes from fear has nothing to do with love; indeed, it is love's opposite.

[waveseer]

This thread is starting to scare me because my ex used that logic to justify telling me what to do. He said I didn't "trust" him if I didn't do what he wanted. I could never get him to understand otherwise. This feels like a justification for abuse!

 

I would venture to guess that more often than not, subtle or not, communication of these "preferences" are veiled attempts at control which carries the implied threat of disloyalty if you do not match their ideal which is pretty much emotional blackmail.