Did I blow it? Long talk with the ex...

[GeeCee]

LostinVan

 

I have to be honest. I would not say what you are describing. The problem, as I see it, is that you are both hurting for your own reasons. She is not doing the internet thing to hurt you intentionally. This is about her and stroking her own ego.

 

Couple of things could go wrong for you here - firstly she may well think that you have been snooping on her and that would nto be a good thing. Secondly, she may well feel that you are trying to control her, and that would not be a good thing.

 

One thing that I am learning now, is that we have to put our own ego and desires aside in the short-term to gain benefit in the long-term. That is not to say, that you tell her you applaud her involvement on the internet. But, at the moment, I think that you are in a precarious position, and should not be trying to make waves. I am sorry, but at the moment, I think that you have to put aside your needs (this hurts), to look at the bigger picture.

 

In the long run, if she stops this internet thing of her own accord - it will be her decision. Not something that she has done out of guilt or because she felt she had to. It's almost like the no-contact rule. When we break the NC rule (and I am the biggest criminal), we force our exes to speak to us - we have almost taken away their right to chose. And we do feel better when they contact us of their own accord.

 

I really think that you have to both be more secure in your new relatinoship before you make any demands, however, gentle those demands are.

 

I know that this tears you up, but it could be worse - as far as you know she has not acted on anything. Look on it as a fantasy that you know about. And I don't know about you guys, but most of us do not actually realise our fantasies - they are too elusive and dangerous.

 

G xx

[LostinVan]

Hi Gee Cee.

 

You said a lot of things that are right (sigh, when will we men realise women are right a lot of the time so I'm not going to approach it.

 

Could you and other women on the board help me though... help me understand what my ex *may* be thinking right now about the following.

 

1. She most likely knows that *I know* she's on a specific dating board. I had to set up a profile to see her account, so I did, and I made it obvious in my description etc who I was (at least to her eyes reading it), even my name tag is obvious. On this particular board, you can see "who is viewing my pages", and she's not stupid. She will see that. Also yesterday in our talk, she made a slight comment: "hey, it's probably not a good idea to be asking about me to friends and family". I thought it was because I had a good heart to heart with a good friend of hers a few days ago. Now I'm thinking she thinks I asked around to her brothers etc about the dating board.

 

So, what do you think is going through her mind right now? Fear? Worry? Laissez Faire? Defensiveness? Caution? All the above? If you were in her shoes (and you knew I wasn't a jealous guy; you also knew I haven't brought it up, which may be a surprise to you), what's going on?

 

(sidenote: it would be soooooooo cool if she contacted *me* through this board, asking for some online sex, a casual date, or even an IM chat!!! How weird is that?)

 

2. I noticed just a couple of minutes ago that she hasn't accessed it since yesterday AM (when she was here at the house with broadband connectivity - where she's staying she has no internet access, and she's been going to a lot of internet cafes to check email, etc etc). On this particular dating board, I can see when she last logged on, and she hasn't visited in 24 hours. Good sign, I guess.

 

3. She has made her profiles unviewable, either as a) only viewable when she's online, or b) unviewable for the moment (these are both options with one's profiles - in my case, I have it set to "view anytime"). This could be a reaction to her discovering me on the board though. What to make of this?

 

4. If she knows I know, but I never bring it up, what do you think her ongoing mindset will be? Again, she cares about me still, she said (a couple of weeks ago now) that she still loves me and will always love me, and she said she doesn't want to hurt me anymore (which I believe, but she also thinks that if we get back together, she will continue to hurt me, hence the break).

 

5. She is still carrying on email convos with guys from the board, and she IS definitely going on dates with a couple of them now. Again, now that I know, and she probably knows that, what is her mindset now about me knowing "word got around that I'm available again" means "I put the word out very quick that I'm available".

 

It would really help me to get the female perspective from all of this. In the meantime, I'll still try to give my upbeat, male perspective in your threads

 

LostinVan

[GeeCee]

Hi Lostinvan

 

This is a tricky one. You have asked for a female perspective. I cannot give you that, because I cannot speak for all women, but I can give you my perspective.

 

I have to say (and this is not what you want to hear), if I was in a secure relationship, I would not be involved in any kind of internet relationship, no matter how elusive. If I was in a relationship that I was trying to fix, I would hope that I would not be indulging in it either. I guess in some way, she is testing the waters, finding out what/who is out there. Now this might not be as bad as it seems, at first L. You see, what she might find is that no-one compares with you, and to be honest, at the moment, she will be comparing every guy she 'talks' to and meets with you. So, actually, this could put you in a better position than you think. But what you MUST do is portray yourself in a favourable light.

 

I would say that you MUST end the emotional conversation. Again, I am guilty of this. When my ex told me that we were finished, I told him that I loved him (thank god, no pleading, crying, begging), but still a form of emotional blackmail on my part. There was no need to say this, but I put my needs before his. I vividly remember saying to him, I want you to know this, I want to say it: I love you. The only purpose it served was my own. Ex did not need to hear that at that particular time.

 

So conversations with you ex need to be light, not laden with guilt-trips. We all know this L, but sometimes our own emotional needs drive us to say things that our exes know anyway.

 

Your ex is flirting - she has been hurt - I hurt - you hurt. We all deal with this hurt in a different way. I, at one point, thought about going and shagging a really good friend (who would oblige - thank goodness for good friends), just to fill a physical void. But how long was that going to last? I didn't, in case you wonder!!

 

She might be wondering why you are not saying anything, if she is sure that you know. Yes, you are right, it would be a really cool thing if she approached you through the internet chat. Very cool. I need to think this through some more, and maybe there needs to be a little more time, but maybe you should think about making this approach yourself. What better way to start a 'new' relationship.

 

Honestly, L, she clearly has a need for you - don't make that a need to assuage her guilt, because she will not stay in the long-term. Try and give her the space to get this out of her system, remain a constant emotional fulfillment for her, upbeat and optimistic. In short - everything that you are finding difficult at the moment. L, it is a fantastically difficult thing to do, but you have to look at the long-term gain.

 

Not sure whether i have answered your questions here, L, and not sure whether you will like my answers.

 

Contact me, either on here, or by PM, if I can help any more.

 

Talk soon.

 

G xx

[LostinVan]

GeeCee, the voice of reason!

 

Okay. Here's today's tally, which is brief, then some thoughts.

 

The ex forgot that she was going to come over "for lunch" because I bought some halibut over the weekend, fresh off the boat, and when I mentioned it to her yesterday, she hinted she'd like some, so I said "well, I could wait until lunch tomorrow, cook some, and you could have some!" She agreed.

 

But today, by 1pm, she wasn't here. I called her cell phone (GSM type, which lets you "send to busy" when you see the caller id) and sure enough, after two rings, she "sent me to busy"... (it normally rings 6 times). So I left an okay message: "Hi, I wasn't sure if you were still coming over for fish for lunch; I'm going to cook it up now, give me a call if you'd like", and left it. She didn't call back.

 

2:50 pm, she shows up. I'm taking a break from work and playing a video game. She comes in, says hi, has brief words (says "sorry, I forgot lunch"), smiles, then goes upstairs for, you guessed it, computer time. I don't see her again until 3:27, when she comes back outside to go to her classes she's teaching (I'm outside, working on the back deck), ready to teach. I smile and say nice things. I say "I hope you've had a great day! (with a stupid ass smile on my face. Grrr), and she said "I have a break between 5 and 6, if you would like to spend some time talking?" I said "well, if you're hungry, there's still a couple of filets left. I could toss them on the bbq for you", and she was sort of receptive, smiled and went to work.

 

So, some thoughts...

 

First, yeah, I'm pretty aware that she would be comparing me to any guy she meets. That's partially what worries me. I have to admit I've become sedentary in my life (ie, more than a few pounds around the waist), and I am self conscious about it. I know its superficial, but at times I wonder how the hell I could compete with guys who are a) good looking AND b) telling her all sorts of flowery, nice things!!! (as a side note, I'm on Atkins, have been since before our break, and I've dropped about 20lbs. But as a bad thing, she hasn't said a word about noticing it - even though my pants are slightly loose these days).

 

Second, end the emotional convos. I know it. You know it. We all know it. It's so damned hard!!!! SO DAMNED HARD! But yeah, I have to do it. I know it. My heart needs to comply.

 

third, re, me hitting on her via the dating web site. I've thought about that for a few days. Thought when (and if) I'm ready with myself to ask her on a date again (ie, I have a personal committment to myself not to ask her on a date again until I know that I will be different in a new relationship with her), I would possibly use that avenue. If she didn't know I knew about the web dating site, I probably wouldn't... too much of a shock. But since she knows I know (most likely), could it be considered "cute"?

 

Re, she has a need for me. That is true. Problem is, at times I think her need is to feel better about herself, so by talking to me and being nice, she has less guilt about the break. It's like she has this duty, and she's trying to fulfill it. So at times, I think she's using me.

 

If that's true, what to do with it?

 

LostinVan

[GeeCee]

Hmmmmm - you are asking some tricky stuff here, L, and I don't have all the answers, some opinions I will share tho.

 

Firstly, no matter what the circumstances, to accept a lunch date and then not show?!?! Very &^$£ing rude. There was no need for that, and I have to say, I would have said something.

 

Regardin the comparing you to other guys thing. Ok, this is difficult - we are all older and not as gorgeous as we once were - her included. Your self-esteem is not sky-high at the moment - congratulations on losing the weight - bad on her, again for not noticing this. Physical attractiveness ... hmmm ... always a tricky one - there are gorgeous, dynamic, confident, intelligent men and women out there who are single. You are not, keep working on your physique and your self-esteem.

 

Don't send her anything via the internet yet - this is too precarious a situation at the moment. I would find this cute - she might find it an invasion. She might also be embarrassed. Not the time to make this move yet, I don't think.

 

Hope this helps.

 

G xx

 

P.S. Really - the lunch thing was very rude - and fresh halibut!! There really is no excuse for that sort of behaviour!!

[strong1]

I'm guessing her missing lunch was a bit of a power play on her part. Doesn't make her bad..it's just human nature sometimes. She might be having mixed feelings about you..(like liking you more again!) and took back a little of her power by blowing you off. That's one theory anyway. Glad you handled it cooly. It's a delicate balance between being 'there as a friend' and there for them to use as a doormat. Good to let it slide this time. Next time...we'll have to talk. For now..you handled it like a pro.

 

You haven't talked to her about her internet stuff..right? If you haven't...I wouldn't bring it up. Honestly, I don't think you are ready to deal w/that whole can o' worms. You've done so well up until this point...your bringing it up could shame her..and women (as we tend to be nurturers) take shaming badly for some reason. I don't agree w/what she did..but, still...you don't want to blow it..you're doing SO WELL. Don't cross any bridges until you're ready to..and some bridges..well, it's sometimes better to just plan a whole new route.

 

You are doing so great! Congrats!

[LostinVan]

Thanks to the new women in my life

 

Another update. Not a good one, though you tell me if I handled things well.

 

5:30, starting prepping the meal. I decided to have lox as an appy (with cheese and some thin breads) - something I've never made before.

 

Meal went good. We sat outside to do it, and all the talk was "how was your day, so and so's doing this, oh that's good, this sounds good, joke, laughter, smiles, nice, etc etc"... but there was some tension in the air, obviously from her side.

 

After dinner, we went to go sit in the remaining sun. We chit chatted a bit more, then she said "I have two questions for you, and you probably won't like them."

 

I said "what are they? I might surprise you".

 

First was the mortgage on this house. She felt I should pay for it all right now since she's not staying here. I said "well, your place of business is here, and you have all your stuff here, and you do spend several hours a day here most days; I will agree, however, to paying 75% of the mortgage this month and the following month.." She didn't like it much, but said okay.

 

Second question: "I'm afraid I'm going to have to put you on a deadline for when you are leaving the house so I can move back in. I need you to set a date, then stick to that date."

 

before I get into my reply, I told her a couple of days ago that because of the two major stress events in my life recently that I had no direct control over (Mom's death, breakup), and a third major stress event coming up (trade show, I'm heavily involved with giving lectures, etc), that I would not start looking for a place until early May. I told her then I would try to make June 1 a goal for moving out, but no guarantees.

 

So, I didn't reply right away when she asked for a deadline. Then I said: "you know what I said a couple of days ago. This still stands. Right now, one element of stress I can personally control is moving. So I've decided to not even think about it until May. I am using this time to heal and feel better about myself. There is no malice here on my part, but I do need to remind you, you were the one who left, not me. I'm doing what I feel is reasonable for myself, then you."

 

She *did not* like hearing this. She said "you're just being manipulative, trying to control me..."

 

I said "I'm sorry you feel that way, but nothing is further from the truth. Right now, I'm trying to heal myself as best I can from two devestating events in my life. I am mainly concerned about myself right now, making myself happy again, and making myself into a better person. I'm not going outside of myself to find happiness (uh oh, I put in a "dig" against her finding other guys), I'm finding it within me. There's no thought of manipulation in my mind when it comes to my decision to put off moving until May or June." (and there isn't, btw).

 

She went quiet. I said her name. She said "yes ______" without looking. I said "talk to me, please." She said "I have nothing to say". So I said "well, thank you for having dinner with me, I really enjoyed it and I mean that", got up, and went to do the dishes. She went into her class room. Came into the house a couple of minutes later and said, with a pout, "it was very rude of me to leave you to do the dishes. Thank you for dinner" and she did some cleanup.

 

She went upstairs, then came back downstairs. I said "Could I tell you one thing? If at any time you do want to talk about anything, feel free to do it - I may very well surprise you with how I react or what I say". She said okay.

 

One postscript which aint good. Remember how she said she resents the dogs? Another thing I've never liked about her. When she's frustrated, she takes out her anger on the dogs, hitting them, etc etc.

 

Well, I was outside with our youngest dog, playing, and she came out to go to her classroom again. Our dog bounded after her with joy. She yelled at the dog, and slapped it on the side of the face. I calmly and directly said: "please do not hit my dog again". She went into her class.

 

I probably won't see her again tonight. Sigh.

 

So, did I do good? It's so soon after this happened, but I think I did, and I think also I made her realise she was being a schmuck by

 

a) making assumptions

b) being mean

c) hitting the dog

 

Perhaps it was too much, but I was angry with her for a moment when she hit a dog that was nothing but happy to see her.

 

LostinVan.

[strong1]

I've got to admit that I find you 'mixin' it up a bit' by being her buddy..then not putting up w/too much crud...INTRIGUING. I think it's a method that works for both guys and gals too actually. You have set some limits. And that's good for your self esteem and the relationship.

 

Once you've made an 'in' w/her..as you seem to have...and gotten her interested and opening up again a bit...you've managed to get some power back. Your sticking to your guns (and not doing it in a power struggle sort of manner) RE: not moving until May..and then telling her not to slap the dog. Genius I'd say. That dog slapping...definitely her projecting her somewhat ticked off emotions with you at you at the dog. If the dogs are very well mannered about her..she has no reason to do that.

 

You are getting GOOD at this! : ) I can see you getting stronger by the day. Very proud of you!!!!

[LostinVan]

Then why do I feel like crap

 

Last update on the day, then some thoughts...

 

After she was done teaching, she came in the house. I was in the living room, playing Bond, James Bond on the PS2 (just bought it, cool game. I'm not a gamer, but I like Bond). She said hi, went up stairs (you guessed it, computer again) for about 20 mins.

 

A couple of days ago, I asked her for help cutting the nails on our oldest dog, as she's blind and finnicky about it. I took the opportunity to go upstairs after about 20 mins and just start doing it. I even asked the ex "where's the dog's nail clippers?". She told me where, but that was it. I started clipping, ex went downstairs, did something, then called up 'I'm leaving now..." I said "okay, have a great evening, drive safely!" with a smile in my voice. She said 'yeah..." and was gone.

 

Some thoughts.

 

Today for the first day, I was kind of sorry for the ex, and also a bit mad at her (first time since the break). The dog hitting bugged me; I had flash backs to how she took out her aggression on the dogs in the past.

 

I also saw that she sees *no changes* in me at times (her perspective)... as in she thought me staying was somehow trying to manipulate her into moving back. This isn't the case, and I hope I made it clear to her, but I could see she wasn't in a mood for discovering things could be different today (not that I manipulated her very much in the past, IMO; but her perception may be different).

 

It did feel good today to gently (I hope) put my foot down and let her know that, hey, you're the one who left, don't expect me to always bend over backwards for you and take it up the heinie... but I'm guessing she didn't see it this way.

 

Sigh. The rollercoaster continues.

 

LostinVan

[LostinVan]

Another couple of thoughts, and a cry for opinion...

 

First, well, she logged onto the dating / sex chat website again today, probably this evening.

 

Second, I've now gotten the hint accross twice "I'm finding a happiness for myself inside of me, without relying on others, I'm pretty sure that's true, not superficial". I said once to her "I am worried about you and you finding happiness. I hope you'll take the time to find it inside of you instead of around you."

 

So, I'm not going to mention this stuff again to her. But I'm not entirely sure she gets the drift.

 

What I *want* to say to her is that I am getting to the point where I can truly provide her with an environment where she can be happy, can be satisfied, can be fullfilled. I know I'm getting there. I'm able to do it for myself in spurts. I know I'm babysteps away from being able to provide the seeds for her too. But I don't know how to say that without scaring her off, or how to do things to convince her that its not a lie.

 

I guess... I guess still being the happy self around her (I have been making an effort to be more happy around her, laugh at her jokes, tell my own, tell interesting stories about what happened during my day, etc). But I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. For all the activity today, I feel like I've taken major steps back.

 

Maybe I feel like I've taken steps back because today's the first day since the break that she hasn't given me a hug or even touched me (she likes holding hands).

 

LostinVan

[GeeCee]

Lostinvan

 

You have made a lot of comments here. Am really busy today, but will come back to your thread tonight.

 

You are doing good, honey, real good. I know you feel like crap. It's hard work. But you are doing good.

 

Talk later.

 

G xx

[LostinVan]

AY Carumba, batman!!! This woman is soooooo confusing!

 

This morning... a good morning. (also a good morning to you all).

 

I have a major trade show coming up in a few weeks. The ex went with me last year to it, and she had a great time. Major ego stroking is what she got, and she truly enjoyed it. My, uh "fame" preceeded me, and by virtue of her being my spouse, she was automatically treated like a VIP... then her personality and engaging behavior won over more points.

 

This year, I brough up the subject of her going again, but she's constantly turned it down since our break (and before the break) because a) she's already travelled a lot in the last few months (she has, cuz of my Mom) and has lost a lot of work, and b) our obvious situation.

 

This morning, she is over here and she's taking care of bills, correspondence and such. We had some good light hearted convos, and I said at one point "I'm getting a lot of emails from folks now about the upcoming show, and everyone's asking if you're going (most of these folks don't know about the break up). I told the ex I've been replying saying no, she has done so much travel recently, she can't spare the time any more for fear of damaging her job..."

 

Then the ex surprised me. "what's the dates again of the show... (I told her)... she looks at her calendar and says "what if I don't go the same time you do, but I do go for Friday to Sunday?, would you mind?"

 

.... would I mind???!!!!!!!!!!?????? would I mind!!!!????? Lessee. U. Me. In a very cool town. In the same hotel room (I have a suite booked, also have the option of two doubles or one king size, but also a pull out couch)... hanging out. Going to dinners. Having a good time. Soaking up some adoration from people who respect and like me. Having you witness me in at my absolute best. Would I mind?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I kept it cool folks. I said "I think that would work for me, and I sure could use your help. But this year, I'll totally give your independence to do your own thing...."

 

She started looking at flights

 

Now, there's a potential down side to this. She was hit on A LOT at last year's show. I'm not assuming she's going this year to get hit on and have one night stands, but I also assume she'd want me to present her as an assistant or helper or whatever at the show, and probably make it clear she's an ex. So now I'm all paranoid and stuff about that

 

But.... this is a major change. I can't figure out this woman!

 

LostinVan

[strong1]

Look at this as a positive!

 

You can intro her as 'your friend.' That will make her think! Play it cool and keep her wondering!

[GeeCee]

Ooooooh - your hard work - and boy is it hard work - is coming to fruition methinks?!?!??!

 

G xx

[LostinVan]

Okay, so the day is over with the ex, and it's what I would call a GOOD day, though I'm still wary of being too positive about her yet, and I think I should look at things from an objective perspective.

 

Had lots of tiny interactions during the day. I went out to do some shopping, get a hair cut, get some dog stuff, visit a client. I got back home at around 4:30, and the ex was sleeping........ in our bed! (WTF?). She woke up when I called her name, and she was obviously embarrassed and jumped out quickly, also straightened up the bed. Turns out she had a migraine (she gets these occasionally, and yes, I do fret about them all the time), and just kind of zonked out for an hour or so (I was gone for half the day).

 

She was late for her next class, so she quickly headed out. I had bought a few minor things for her while I was out shopping (nothing major - grapes, some dried mango, some sinutab for her current cold, etc), and decided to drop them off in her class a couple of times so she could eat and also pop some pills.

 

She came in after teaching, went upstairs and actually paid attention to our oldest dog (yeeehah). Mind you, I did ask her if she could check out or oldest and clean up the dog's nose (long story). But that was hours before.

 

Then, well, the computer for about an hour. But I've resolved myself to NOT CHECK THE INTERNET DATE / SEX WEBSITE any longer for any of her activity. So I didn't log back on to see if she surfed it this evening.

 

When it came time to leave, I'm most likely wrong on this, but there was a scant element of "hesitance" in the air from her. Probably wrong on that . But one big body language event. I had some cheery talk with her, asked if her headache was gone (yes, and she thanked me for the vitamins and ibuprophen I gave her)... and we were about a foot away from each other, and I swear for a split second, she went to do something that used to be natural... kiss on the lips... but she quickly turned it into a good hug and kiss on the cheek.

 

Other minor things from today: I had a short episode of tears about my Mom (still comes in spurts)... ex mentioned something about my Mom and it just happened, ex immediately hugged and said comforting words. Even said "Wow, you went from an excited and cheery person to this in a literal blink of the eye..." (which means she's noticing my cheerful demeanor, which wasn't even faked today). Later on, she saw I bought kettle popcorn (barely Atkins level...) and did a bit of a "swoon" as in "I love kettle corn!". I gave her a couple of bags to take with her, and she was visibly and audibly grateful in a very cheery way.

 

Okay, now some thoughts.

 

1. The trade show. I have no illusions, at least at this time, that she's coming to be with me. She's going to help me in my jobs because she still enjoys that. She's also going because she has awesome memories of last year's show. In fact, she said "I hope people don't think of me as a show rat!". But we went from her not even seeming to consider it to her really considering coming for at least part of my time there.

 

2. I don't want to be overly optimistic about today... yes I'm extremely happy and feeling good tonight, but I want to also think about today's events with sober reflection, and still take things slow.

 

All in all, a great day, and wow, quite a change from yesterday, huh? I wonder if my two "stand up for myself" events did something. I should note again... I am a strong willed person, very much an A type personality. In the past, I would have stood up for myself and been a dink about it too... this time, I stood up for myself, but was calm and reasoned. That IS a change. Maybe she noticed that. Maybe she even believes me that I am not trying to manipulate her vis a vis putting off moving.

 

LostinVan.

[GeeCee]

I am busy busy busy today (again), but wanted to post a reply.

 

Real quick.

 

I had bought a few minor things for her while I was out shopping (nothing major - grapes, some dried mango, some sinutab for her current cold, etc), and decided to drop them off in her class a couple of times so she could eat and also pop some pills.

Lostinvan - this woman is a madwoman!! Leave her immediately!!! Forget jewels, fast cars, fast sex etc. These are the things that women need!! (Well don't forget the fast cars, fast sex, jewels, but give us sinutab and grapes too, yeah!! )

 

I did ask her if she could check out or oldest and clean up the dog's nose (long story). But that was hours before.

You have hinted that your ex is resentful of the dogs - so maybe your expectation of her responsibilities towards them are too high. You love your dogs - maybe you should clean their noses and clip their nails? Just a thought.

 

You need to continue what you are doing and have faith in what you are doing. It is going well - she is noticing things that she would not have noticed a week ago.

 

G xx

[LostinVan]

Another yo yo, rollercoaster day for me. Mainly it's me.

 

My contact with the ex today has been generally good if you were an outside observer. But I'm depressed as heck today, I'll explain below.

 

First, re the dogs and cleaning noses... She always took on that job because she seemed to be able to handle it better... and when I asked her, it was in the phrase of a joke... "so and so's nose is really bad right now, could I ask you to take a look at it? I'll take care of her opposite end (said with a grin, and she laughed - don't ask me to explain more!).

 

Today... ex didn't come over until about a half hour before her work started (just to refresh, she works from this house). We talked a bit, then she said to me, re the trade show: "please don't think I've said yes. I said I'm considering it. My sister is coming back two days before that and I'd like to spend time with her" (my brain's screaming - but your sis is now STAYING in town, she's coming back to STAY!!!! The show is only once a year!!! please go!!!!!)... but that's what I thought.

 

I said "I understand... family is important! But I hope you'll still consider it..." and left it at that.

 

She goes to teach. We had tiny interactions. She also replied to a long email I sent last night (a first! more on that below) during one of her breaks... so when she came in to have some computer time, at least I know a portion of her computer time was spent writing something long to me, not perusing dating and sex chat websites!

 

About those emails. She's someone who loves exchanging letter with others. One thing she didn't like about me... I'm not much of a social writer (heheh hehe hard to believe, huh)... the fact is, because of my businesses, I get about 1300 emails a day. 1200 or more are spam (don't ask...), and about 100 or so are legit emails. I usually answer most with canned responses, and the ones I do have to answer are usually short and to the point. I also ignore, or put aside (then forget) many emails.... including a lot of hers. I found out thru a friend this has always bothered her.... sooooooo.

 

The last four days, I've taken to sending her long emails, light, talking about my day, talking about stuff I read, etc. She finally responded to one of them today... and her response was long and nice, though she reinforced her thoughts about the trade show visit... ie, not sure, worried about my expectations, etc.

 

Okay, last interaction I had with her... (she's still here, but teaching right now). She came in as I was talking to a friend and client. At one point, the ex was upstairs, and my friend asked "so is so-and-so coming to the trade show?" I told him I'm not sure, and decided to tell him that me and the ex broke up... she walked down during my side of this, heard me sort of whispering, and went by me quick and SLAMMED the door going outside. Uh oh.

 

So I wrote my reply email to her, talked about new things, quoted some Yeats I've been reading recently, then in a light way said "oh, I also was on the fone with so and so, and I decided to tell him we were broken up... because he asked if you were going to be at the trade show. He's sorry to hear it, but wishes the best for both of us."

 

Also another thing has me down today. I asked her if she could stay after her teaching (she's done at 7pm) to get caught up, and she was "sorry, got plans". I know she's seeing some guy now... it's KILLING me. I said "oh, okay, well, I hope work goes well this afternoon."

 

Sigh.

 

LostinVan

 

PS... here's the Yeats quotes:

 

Happiness is neither virtue nor pleasure nor this thing nor that but simply growth, We are happy when we are growing.

 

and

 

Think where man's glory most begins and ends, And say my glory was I had such friends.

[LostinVan]

A tiny update

 

I broke a rule I had (we're sad, ain't we and went to the web dating board.

 

She didn't log on to it at all today!!! Last log in was yesterday! At the very least, no checking it out today!

 

And one other tiny sign of hope. She emailed me and said she was looking to get "The Art of Happiness" by Dali Lama. Both her and I have been into reading Zen lately. I read a portion of that book last week. It's a good start. Now if I could get her somehow interested in reading "How to Change Your Life and Everyone in it"... which is all about positive reinforcement, putting the past behind and finding solutions for the future... and written by the author of Divorce Busting and Divorce Remedy...

 

Still, with this good news, I'm on a downer today. Just my rollercoaster emotions.

 

LostinVan

[strong1]

Hmm. Some good moves on your part (longer emails to her.)

 

The 'door slamming' could have been because you are telling ppl that you two are broken up..and now she's not so sure she made the right decision...and thinks...oh my God..he's telling ppl...and I may have made a mistake...my doors are closing!' (or slamming as the case may be) : )

 

I bet she mentioned that she might not go to that trade show to get a little of her 'power' back. 'I.E., listen mister....I may or may not go....so don't assume anything.' She'll go. Just watch.

 

I think she's wavering on the breakup. Seems obvious to me anyway. GOOD FOR YOU!

 

Ok, sleepy time too tired to type coherently...Have a good Friday!

[LostinVan]

Hmm. Some good moves on your part (longer emails to her.)

 

The 'door slamming' could have been because you are telling ppl that you two are broken up..and now she's not so sure she made the right decision...and thinks...oh my God..he's telling ppl...and I may have made a mistake...my doors are closing!' (or slamming as the case may be) : )

 

I bet she mentioned that she might not go to that trade show to get a little of her 'power' back. 'I.E., listen mister....I may or may not go....so don't assume anything.' She'll go. Just watch.

 

I think she's wavering on the breakup. Seems obvious to me anyway. GOOD FOR YOU!

 

Ok, sleepy time too tired to type coherently...Have a good Friday!

 

Ulp. I'm pretty sure she's not wavering on it. She's intimated to me a couple of times that she's not thrilled that I haven't told certain people yet (yesterday, a mutual female friend saw her, and asked where my ex's engagement ring was (do women notice this all the time????)". My ex told her we were broken up. Mutual friend was shocked. I last talked to mutual friend a couple of days after I got back home from my Mom's funeral, and didn't mention it to her then.... my ex asked me why I didn't tell mutual buddy (in a slightly irked way).

 

Also got another major backslide today... another mutual friend had coffee with the ex this morning. mutual friend came by tonight to have a chat with me. Said the ex :

 

- is doing a LOT of thinking lately, a change from the last time she saw my ex (a good thing I think... if I think positive. the cynic in me says its bad)

 

- has not given any indication to mutual friend that there's any hope of reconcilliation (a bad thing)

 

- told mutual friend that she is "now seeing someone else"... left it at that. a VERY bad thing

 

- here's the weirdest one... told mutual friend that she (my ex) has no jealousy. Even went so far as to say this "if, 5 years ago, I walked into the house one day and found (LostinVan) in bed with another woman, I'd just shrug and go about my work or watch TV, not being worried about it".

 

Here, it gets weirder. When the ex was over her this afternoon, the subject came up, and she said exactly what she said to our mutual friend - she told me the same thing I would later hear from mutual friend.

 

I said to her "I worry about hearing that. What it says to me is that your concern about betrayal or infidelity is non-existant - and it would work both ways - if you didn't care that I was sleeping with someone else, then you might think subconsciously that you could sleep with someone else with no worry?". Ex said "I don't think so, it's mainly how I feel about others. I wouldn't do it myself (which is a bit of a lie - she's been on the infamous web board, asking for "sex chat" for a couple of months).

 

As a side note, and some levity... you don't think she has swinger blood in her, do you? (don't answer that!!!).

 

Anyway, today was a really down day for me. I found out something new. This one's kinda cold, but maybe I'm just reading it negatively.

 

When I was going through so much pain and hurt while accross the country with my Mom (while she was still alive but not doing well at all), my ex, then my spouse, was with me, but she left on a Saturday (leaving me back east); at the airport, she saw how much pain I was in, how hurt I was, how much I needed her by my side. But I also knew my spouse had to get back home because her biz was reallly, really suffering, so I didn't object too much to her leaving - well, I tried hard NOT to lay a guilt trip on.

 

So she goes home on a Saturday? On Sunday, she modified her web dating account to add new profile changes for her intimacy and dating portions.

 

To me, that reeks of coldness. But maybe I'm just looking at it with heavily biased eyes and mind.

 

LostinVan

PS... I was upbeat today... tonight I'm very down. Sorry...

[LostinVan]

Today's update - and it's a big one. I could really use some feedback on your interpretation of the events.

 

Last night, I had a moment of clarity. I've been reading zen readings as of late, without any real reason other than it helps me to clear my mind and think in new ways. But I discovered why I was reading it last night... it came to me all of a sudden:

 

True, real love means accepting the person for what they are and not trying to change them.

 

I didn't even fathom the meaning behind these words until last night. It doesn't mean you shouldn't gripe about your spouse being late, or procrastinating or using foul language, etc. You can (and should) still do that if it causes conflict.

 

It means that you fell in love with a person because of what they are. If from the get go, you didn't like certain things about their demeanor or way of living life, but tolerated, that isn't real love (IMO).

 

But if you did fall hopelessly, totally in love with someone, you accept all that they are, warts and all.

 

I did with my ex. For a time, I forgot that. And the more I thought about it, the more I knew she was in love with me, hopelessly, totally. What did the relationship in was me forgetting (or not realising) this, and trying to change her intrinsically at times. Deep changes, not superficial stuff.

 

Like..... WOW.

 

So today. This is on my mind. Do I bring it up? I'll wait, I think.

 

Lots of interactivity with the ex today. She was here in the AM. We had very nice chats. She brought up some interesting stuff about how she perceives herself. "if people were looking at me, I'd wonder what was wrong with me. I couldn't imagine they may like looking at me or thinking I'm in any way attractive. And I realise I don't feel that way about myself" she said. We did some exploratory talk.

 

I said "I always thought you were beautiful to me, and I've told you countless times, but now something makes sense. I slowed down my telling you this as the years went on because I saw the reaction over and over again - you being uncomfortable hearing it."

 

Then the phone rings. She sees the number and immediately excuses herself in the middle of this deep convo. From what I could hear, it's probably the guy she's seeing now, reminding her about lunch. She says "in 30 minutes okay? Whatever he said, she said "okay, okay, I'll leave now, see you in 10". (I'm angry about her seeing another guy, but happy to see that maybe he's being a demanding dink so early on).

 

She went out, I went out. She was back at the house first. She was teaching, then had a break about an hour after I got back. We sat in the living room talking again, first light talk, then more serious. My clarity moment from the evening before was burning a hole in my head. She must have noticed... "penny for your thoughts". I said "well, I'm not sure if you want to hear this, it's pretty intense". She said "you pique'd my interest - what is it..." I said, "are you sure you're ready for something big?" She said yes in a good body language voice.

 

I told her. Told her my thoughts on true love. Told her I dropped the ball, but it never left me. I just forgot to exercise it.

 

She smiled. Then became pensive. I said "what are your thoughts on that. "

 

She said "I'm happy for you that you have realised this. I'm also sad. (I asked why), she said "because it's too late now."

 

I said "it's never too late as long as I have lungs in me breathing. I realise this powerful thing now, and it's going to change the course of my life in any relationship I may develop in the future." She smiled at that and her body language was good.

 

Then we moved onto lighter things and started talking about the trade show again. Get this. After the bomb, she's talking like she's GOING. Not only that, but she started rambling off other trade shows in this calendar year that she's now excited about. She wants me to do up new business cards for her even!

 

So how do I read that. I'm not foolish enough to think "wow, my moment of clarity has turned the corner". It hasn't. Not yet. But it's shown her an element in me that she hasn't seen for years. I hope even now, as she's heading home, that she's thinking about it. The question is, what to do the next few days with it?

 

Minor items to finish off. Some quirky stuff happened - like she left laundry in the dryer (she brought over stuff to wash today) and I offered to fold it for her and she was forcefully adamant about not letting me do it. What, is she doing the other guy's laundry already? She took all of it unfolded when she left.

 

Second - she's obviously hesitant to stay too long after her work is done. Like she has some place to go. Constantly.

 

Third - slightly disturbing - she hasn't answered any of my emails from the past few days where I asked specific (but none-too-deep) questions.

 

BTW, sorry all for the way I ramble on. It's hard to get my thoughts accross while keeping things clear and concise.

 

LostinVan

[strong1]

Ok..I give UP trying to do quotes...so I'll just have to recap stuff.

 

When she said that she thinks others would look at her and think there's something wrong w/her..she doesn't feel attractive. It just reeks (as I guessed) that she has self esteem issues. She may not have had that in the past. But as you two drifted apart...she kept trying, I'll bet, to get noticed by you, wasn't...and that drove her further down. I'm telling you this for a reason..not to make you feel bad. I've been in her position before...and am sometimes now. And it just starts to close up your heart bit by bit until one day WHAMMO. You just don't care about the person you loved anymore. BUT, this can change in a woman. But it's going to take time on your part...so get ready for a bit of a ride.

 

You can't press her too hard or say you've changed, etc. As she'll think you are just panicking..and she'll probably also, even when she loves you more again (she does love you now somewhere..she's just stuffing it down) want to punish you a bit for what she feels you have done (not loved her enough.) You'll have to slowly win her back. No sudden movements! No flowerly declarations of love. SHOW her you love her now..doing thoughtful stuff like when you bought her some stuff when she wasn't feeling well. If you come out and tell her you love her...she'll just say stuff like 'too late now.' What DOES help is to tell her she looks nice on a particular day. Or 'wow, is that a new skirt? I like that one, etc.' Perk up her confidence a bit. She might not even say 'thanks' or could deny that she looks good..but those are the little things she'll remember.

 

And, you know...don't always be too available for her either. Mix it UP mister! See, hate to say I told you so..but I TOLD YOU SO about your trade show. She'll go! : )

[GeeCee]

Hi Lostinvan

 

Hope that your day is going a little better than yesterday.

 

A couple of thoughts regarding your situation. I think that you need to mix it up for a her a little. And this may be difficult, given that she works out of your home, and you seem to work from home a lot. My perception, rightly or wrongly, is that you have made yourself readily available for her. She knows this and you know it. You do it, because you want to give her emotional fulfillment, and you are seeking it from her as well. However, I am not sure that she is ready to do that yet. If, as you say, she is suffering from self-esteem issues herself, then she cannot be expected to stroke your ego at the same time. In generic terms, this is part of the problem with relationships, women make too many sacrifices, men don't realise, women get resentful, men realise, whoops!! The damage has been done. And then it is an up-hill battle to regain soemthing that has been damaged. I am not suggesting that this is what has happened in your case - but there are clearly issues.

 

You described, somewhere on this site, the pattern of your exes relationships. Well ... that seems to be a similar pattern to most men I know!! She goes from one relationship to another - however, you pointing that out to her, is not, I don't think, going to be received very well. You might well be further ahead than your ex in terms of your self-discovery, but she has to be allowed to make that journey for herself. I don't think that you can lead her in any direction in this respect. And so, of course, this is going to cause you huge emotional pain.

 

Some of what you are doing is having a positive effect - I think that she will go with you to the trade show. I think that she will probably enjoy it. You need to as well. But, perhaps, you need to also take a step back and let her catch up with you a bit. You need to not always be around, fending for her when she comes to the house.

 

Lostinvan - tell me to butt out - this is just my opinion.

 

G xx

[Beec]

 

I said "it's never too late as long as I have lungs in me breathing. I realise this powerful thing now, and it's going to change the course of my life in any relationship I may develop in the future." She smiled at that and her body language was good.

 

 

LostInVan,

 

From this and your other post, it is pretty clear that you see the hole you dug. You know what happened and you know you did this over a long period of time. Changing how she sees you, if you can, success is not guaranteed, will also take a long time. Most of what you need to do is show her, not tell her, how you have and are changing.

 

I was at first shocked by reading what you said above. Until I finished the sentence. You are letting her know you want her back, which for now is good. But there also must be a chance, in her head, that you will not take her back or be there when she wants back, if she does.

 

You do need to give emotional fulfillment and then withdraw it, but that will be tough in you situation. You also need to understand that she does get her self-esteem from her man, and for a long time you did not give it. One of your big jobs is going to be feeding her self-esteem not just as a friend, but as a sex object. Most of us say we don't want to be sex objects, but we lie. We want to be sex objects, we want to be physically desired. But we do not want to be just that.

 

I think you need to try and be her refuge at times, now. Then be the guy who has no time to talk to her when she is at your place. Also, you need to find a way to make her feel desirable and desired by you physically. One of my favorite things to do is to call a woman "Gorgeous". When I see her I give a flirty look and say "Hi Gorgeous, how are you?" Then drop all conversation into friend mode.

 

You should not do this yet. She first needs to feel secure, but when you see she does, move in this direction. For now compliment how she looks when she appears nice, relatively. "Hey, that looks good on you." Nothing sexual about it. Make her feel appreciated for her appearance. Especially try to get one in when you think she will be seeing him the same day. You want to be the contrast to him not saying it.

 

You also cannot be there for her to talk to whenever she wants. You must at times withdraw, like what GeeCee said.

[LostinVan]

Solid advice, both of you, and I thank you both for it. I'm taking it to heart. I only wish I had read it before this morning.... had a backslide big time.

 

Three days ago, I said "I need to get some spring clothes and value your opinion, could you come with me to go shopping for an hour?" She said no to Thursday. I said Friday? She said no, but I have time on Saturday. I said okay, that works for me - after you're done teaching? Yes.

 

So this morning. I get my morning work done, then she comes into the house and says hi, I gotta do this, gotta do that, yada yada, then I gotta go.

 

I said - well, there's one other thing you forgot.... drew a blank look. I said "helping me shop for some clothes?

 

And she blew me off. I tried to keep my cool and said "don't worry about it, I valued your opinion but you have things to do...." but I guess my actions and face said more. I finished getting ready to go, she asked me another question about something else and I was polite but short in my reply, and she said "now you're upset with me". I said "no, you have your life to live, I understand that" and headed out the door.

 

But I'm reading over your comments Beec and Gee Cees again and again now, and I'm taking them to heart. I should go to the office more (yes, my company does have an office I should, at this stage, be available a LOT less to her. I should not be so accessible to her when SHE wants to talk. At least at this stage. I've laid some heavy groundwork, and it's probably time to step back now. If anything for my own sanity. I'm really burned about today. It's the second time in two tries by me to get her to do something (the lunch thing last Monday was the previous) that she's blown me off.

 

This brings up something. I asked her to help proof some documents that are urgent and pressing and need an evaluation. She asked me yesterday and today if they were ready. I said "still working on it". I think I will tell her next time I see her that to never mind it, I've found someone else to do it (and I gotta find someone else now!

 

Second thing. I arranged for, uh, some media exposure for her that's coming up on a specialized subject. I was asked to do it, but it's in a different language and I decided to see if she wanted to do it. She said yes and has delved into it a LOT (in fact, she's getting almost egotistical about it). But she needs coaching from me on things to say. I was intending on doing it tomorrow. Question - if I make myself unavailable for it, is that bad or not? This is a unique situation - she could "take a fall" if I don't coach her. But if I don't coach her, will she regret our sitch or be resentful because I didn't coach her.... sigh.

 

LostinVan.