Religions, spirituality, mysticism... Speak your mind...

[OmegaMan]

Well, many members here are aware about my thoughs the mysticism part of religions. I was wondering if you thought that spirituality and religion are automatically tied together?

 

Please be open-minded and respectful in your replies, and firm in your convictions.

 

Are you for or against instituted forms of religion (Christianism, Buddhism, Hinduism etc..)? Do you believe in a higher being? Do you believe praying is the only way to communicate with supernatural powers?

 

Do you believe that the spiritual man is he who has learned and accepted his own spirituality rather than following one already in place? In other words, do you believe that he who is spiritual reaches a point that he can go on in life without the help or some organised religious group? Is a man more courageous is he lives his life without the help of the supernatural?

 

That's only part of the questions I've been asking myself. I'm looking for some replies with conviction and self-confidence in one's beliefs.

 

Thank you

 

Omega Man

[routerx]

Good topic..

 

First.. no.. I don't believe a man or woman who is spiritual can survive. God decides, not man. A man/woman must recognize the God from the Bible, a gift from God sitting right in front of our face.

 

Let me preface this by saying that I believe all religions are on the right track to God.. but no "formal" religion is closer to God than Lutherans. Even Lutherans have 2 sects... I'm Lutheran Missouri Synod because I believe strongly they are closest to the scriptures.

 

I walked away from God.. I walked back to him. I believe there is only one God and he is the God who sent Christ to die for us.. to live amoung us.

 

The Lutheran Church believes that the relationship between you and God is based on faith alone. You can't just say you are Christian... you can't just believe you are saved.. you can't just attend Church or volunteer.. you have to have faith.. and God knows if you do. That has nothing to do with SAYING you are a Christian. God knows if you are by your heart.

 

You do NOT have to go through the church to connect to God. God is there for you ALL the time. He walks with you all day, sleeps with you all night. The church and your Priest or Pastor are NOT your connection to God, you heart and mind are.

 

Church is a time to accept communion and worship with others to give thanks and publicly declare your faith, but God is in your daily life, so you are to confess daily, pray daily, and keep your heart open.

 

Thanks for asking this question. I'm glad to have the opportunity to speak about it.

[Buddafly]

OmegaMan,

 

I've just really begun my spiritual journey. But one thing I know is true, and that I have out grown conventional Christianity. For some people, they never really out grow it, and what I mean by that is, not out growing God, for I firmly believe that He exists, but that the whole church institution doesn't fit me anymore. If i were to go to a church and tell them some of my beliefs, they'd think i were crazy or something to that effect.

 

I believe that there is a whole area in life that the church just cannot explain away. All the phenominal sightings, and stories... that the higher power that I call God is bigger than the church.

 

For me religion has been a catalyst for my spirituality. And that, with so many people in the world, one religion is almost fool hardy to think that they are the only right way.

 

I believe that there are many ways that God can communicate with you, if you are willing to listen. For instance, i do believe that tarot card reading is can be quite effective sometimes, and very insightful. But i like praying... it's kind of like meditating, only i don't yet have the patience for that yet. But when i pray, it's a comfort to me.

 

The supernatural, as you call it, is all around us. And I believe that, we can't live without them, because we need them. Whether we like to admit that or not. There's a lot more to life than people would like to admit it seems. And i think fear is the basis of that, and i know that there are still a lot of areas in myself, and my spirituality that i am terrified. I only hope that i will find the courage to face that.

 

Anyhow, I hope that made some sense... talking spirituality when sleepy isn't the brightest thing i've done

 

Good luck and peace on your journey.

[routerx]

I wrote something more.. but forget it for now... I'd like to hear what others have to say.

[ShadeOfGreen]

I hope I don't offend anyone

 

I have a firm disbelief is organized religion. This is not to say I do not believe in the teachings and philosophys of these religions because most of them have a positive message. Its just something about the zeal people have over their religions that i find bothersome. I grew up in an Irish catholic household and my aunts (who are pretty old) will do anything the church says. They fail to have beliefs of their own formulation. Its like TV to me. Both have the power to control your thoughts if you let them. A philosopher once said that 'religion is the opium of the masses' and I must say I agree. Except now, for most people religion is a totally superficial institution that they had passed down to the from their parents. I can't honestly say I have any friends who truly know what their religion is all about. But I can think of seven who claim to be very strong in their beleifs of those religions.

 

I personally follow a little more on the buddhist philosphy. This is because as an adult I have read and absorbed the text of the buddhist teachings and can honestly say that I like what I hear and believe that the philosophy is something I can admire. I have also read much of the bible and spent 16 years of life going to church and all. I don't think that the church holds strong the things that I believe in so I don't. This is how a decision on religion should be made. As an adult you can understand. When you are raised to be in a religion you will usually not understand it.

[Cid]

I beleve there is a God but you dont have to be apart of an relagion. I is my beleve that god will love me and take me in NO MATTER WHAT I DO. Some people say "so god will take you in if you kill someone" I respond saying "yes but I would never do such a thing" this beleve have helped me alot. You can say what ever you whant to about this you cant hurt me.

[OmegaMan]

Ok, time for my reply has come, I'm glad so many of you participated, and I hope they will reply with arguments of thier own.

 

First.. no.. I don't believe a man or woman who is spiritual can survive. God decides, not man. A man/woman must recognize the God from the Bible, a gift from God sitting right in front of our face.

 

But do yo not think this is depressing a thought, that God decides of everything and that you have to submit to his will? How is the bible a gift from God, if it was invented by man? Wouldn't you say something is human and natural, and so unsupernatural, if created by man? Why can't the bible like any other books? Why can't it be a book filled with constructive philosophies (and not so constructive ones) to be read for spiritual enlightment like any spiritually enlightning book? And you mentionned must, what do you think happens if you don't?

 

I walked away from God.. I walked back to him. I believe there is only one God and he is the God who sent Christ to die for us.. to live amoung us.

 

But what about other religions? Don't they exist too? Couldn't they be different interpretation of the same mystical being? Why must there be only one God? Why must we limit our interpretation of the mystical (supernatural, unexplained, faith in a higher being) to one interpretation, in your case, the Lutherian one? I can't wait to read your answers.

You do NOT have to go through the church to connect to God. God is there for you ALL the time. He walks with you all day, sleeps with you all night. The church and your Priest or Pastor are NOT your connection to God, you heart and mind are.

 

Then, knowing that, what is the point of churches, of pastors and priests? Aren't they both human invention in the first place, just like the biblie is? Can a human invention, which is natural, can lead to the surnatural?

 

Church is a time to accept communion and worship with others to give thanks and publicly declare your faith, but God is in your daily life, so you are to confess daily, pray daily, and keep your heart open.

 

But why do you have to confess so often? Will you punish if you don't? Wouldn't that be a contradiction with the ever loving and forgiving god?

 

The questions have been asked Router, now is your turn to answer I'm glad you had the courage to share your thoughts.

 

Buddafly:

 

I've just really begun my spiritual journey. But one thing I know is true, and that I have out grown conventional Christianity. For some people, they never really out grow it, and what I mean by that is, not out growing God, for I firmly believe that He exists, but that the whole church institution doesn't fit me anymore. If i were to go to a church and tell them some of my beliefs, they'd think i were crazy or something to that effect.

 

So you would say that someone who is advanced spiritually comes to the point where he outgrows organised religious groups? But why do you have such a firm believe that God exists? How can you be sure of something that cannot be interpreted by any of our senese?

 

For me religion has been a catalyst for my spirituality. And that, with so many people in the world, one religion is almost fool hardy to think that they are the only right way.

 

Which means you and Router think quite differently, as he mentionned there is only one God, which, I supposed, is the one in his religion.

 

But i like praying... it's kind of like meditating, only i don't yet have the patience for that yet. But when i pray, it's a comfort to me.

Wouldn't you say that praying is actually just like any kind of mediation (yoga, relaxation, reflexion) just to ponder about things in your life? Why do you need the mystical part of it?

 

The supernatural, as you call it, is all around us. And I believe that, we can't live without them, because we need them. Whether we like to admit that or not. There's a lot more to life than people would like to admit it seems. And i think fear is the basis of that, and i know that there are still a lot of areas in myself, and my spirituality that i am terrified. I only hope that i will find the courage to face that.

 

How can I call it differently ? I am referring to things that cannot be perceived by one's senses, thus supernatural (beyond nature). But why can't we live without them? I know many who do not believe in the surnatural, yet are happy, happier than believers in the surnatural sometimes. I actually believe that fear is what leads us to believe in the supernatural, fear of reality as it is.

 

Thank you Budda, I hope you will rejoin the debate to explain further your opinion.

 

FOR All actors in the debate, I've already posted this quote be here it is again, as I believe It to fit quite well with my the subject we are discussing:

 

A mystic is a man who surrendered his mind at it's first encounter with the minds of others. Somewhere in the distant reaches of his childhood, when his own understanding of reality clashed with the assertions of others, with the arbitrary orders and contradictory demands, he gave in to the craven a fear of independance that he renounced his rational faculty. At the crossroads of the choice between I KNOW and THEY SAY he chose the authority of others, he chose to submit than to understand, to BELIEVE rather than to think. Faith in the supernatural begins in faith in the superiority of others.

 

Do you agree with this quote?

I hope I don't offend anyone

This thread is for debate, as long as it's respectful, you have the right to think diffeently.

 

I have a firm disbelief is organized religion. This is not to say I do not believe in the teachings and philosophys of these religions because most of them have a positive message. Its just something about the zeal people have over their religions that i find bothersome. I grew up in an Irish catholic household and my aunts (who are pretty old) will do anything the church says. They fail to have beliefs of their own formulation. Its like TV to me. Both have the power to control your thoughts if you let them. A philosopher once said that 'religion is the opium of the masses' and I must say I agree. Except now, for most people religion is a totally superficial institution that they had passed down to the from their parents. I can't honestly say I have any friends who truly know what their religion is all about. But I can think of seven who claim to be very strong in their beleifs of those religions.

 

Everyone agree with this?I do mostly (Marx mentionned your quote, the one about opium).

 

Cid

I beleve there is a God but you dont have to be apart of an relagion. I is my beleve that god will love me and take me in NO MATTER WHAT I DO.

 

How can you be sure of that? Is it because the opposite would be too frightening?

 

Some people say "so god will take you in if you kill someone" I respond saying "yes but I would never do such a thing" this beleve have helped me alot.

 

As you've mentionned. But what would god do? Send you to hell? As you'Ve said, this belief has helped you, just like my belief that we are our own god as helped me, but aren't they both just beliefs, not religion?

You can say what ever you whant to about this you cant hurt me.

 

Well, it was never my intention, nobody wants to hurt you I think. I jut expect you to be open minded about opinions different than your own, and to think about it.

 

Thank you Cid.

 

Join in the debate... remember the quote...

 

Omega Man

 

`

[Buddafly]

OmegaMan,

 

I have to admit, that this is kinda fun for me. It's been a while since i've been part of a debate, now let's see if i can hold my own.

 

For your first question, yes, to me, it seems that a spiritual person can outgrow organized religion. I have noticed that the church has a tendency to live in the past, and to thrive on tradition. Doing things one way just because we've always done it that way, sucks. People change, beliefs change, time changes. What was good for someone then, isn't good for someone now. This is one reason that i think Christianity is have so much difficulty, they're just not changing fast enough. That, and i don't have faith in the catholic church at all... their history just seems really shaddy.

 

But despite the church, i believe that there is a God. There have been insidences in my life that just can't be explained away. I firmly believe, that i am alive today because something supernatural helped me out. And this supernatural being, i have labeled God. But he is so much more than just a label... the label is just because of a lack for a better word. Also, if you take a look at life, at the science of life, at how everything, left alone, perfectly balances... and i mean everything on this planet... it's like wow. There has to be an organization to all this... it couldn't have happened by chance.

 

Router, and I do think differently it seems. And i used to think just like him. But, when you step out of church, that little box you go to on sunday, and talk to people of different nationalities, some of the parallels are uncanny. Buddhism, and the natives, and other peoples, have been around a lot longer than christianity. With out our belief in God, did they all go to hell? Also, in a way, I almost feel hypocrytical following any church because of what has been done in God's name. How many people have died just because they were in a differect sect of Christianity?

 

Why can't God be bigger than Christianity? If i were a Jew, would that mean that i'd go to hell? But then again Jesus was a Jew. There are too many over lapping theories, for just one to be correct.

 

Prayer... i love to pray. I believe that God hears us, our calls, whenever, and all the time (the poor Guy). And prayer, for me is a time where i calm down, a time when I know He's listening, if only for that psychological comfort. But you are correct, prayer could be a type of meditation... it all depends on how you use it, i guess. You could use prayer to convey special wishes for God to hear... or you could use it to calm down.

 

Just because people aren't aware of the supernatural, it doesn't mean that they are living without them. I mean, if i stoped believing in science, would gravity stop holding me down? And i think those that choose to ignore all this, are more afraid of things than they realize, like turning a blind eye to everything that's going on around us. Fear, fear of the afterlife, fear of just living, is probably what's motivated all of us in the beginning. They fear most, not being able to understand. Trust me, i am terrified of my organic chemisty class... for the one reason that I don't really understand any of it. It is almost beyond my comprehension.

 

We can live without them, because they are around us regardless. And i don't know how to explain them to you because, they just are.

 

The quote that you put up, to me, just screams of conforming. That this man conformed to the other minds... and it is probably these other minds that called him mystic. I think that it is great to use other peoples ideas... if only to question them, to change them, to play around with them. But to just adopt these ideas without questioning them... that is fool hardy.

 

 

Well, it seems that i have run out of steam, lol. I really should answer this stuff when fully awake. Any other questions, or if you want me to explain my views more, just ask... next time, I'll try and be awake. ^_^

[Kitty Gadol]

I believe that spirituality and religion can exist as two separate entities, or as one combined. For me personally, my spirituality was awakened 18 months ago. By 'spirituality', I mean I became aware of my inner self. I started to realise that in every negative situation, there is a positive one and I started to see, and appreciate, the beauty of nature all around me. I finally opened my eyes!

14 months ago, I met my current partner who is a necromancer. I appreciate that everyone has freewill, and is thereby entitled to believe in whatever they choose. I am a practicing witch (Pagan - Wicca) and I do not share very many of his views, but we respect each other's differences.

We both believe in the same 'Higher Power' and we both believe in reincarnation. Neither of us believe in 'God' by that name. I worship various Gods and Goddesses, my partner worships the 'Lords and Ladies'. I don't pray, but I do meditate. The reason we don't choose Christianity is because we feel it is wrong to claim to be the 'Only Way'. We have freewill, and nobody has the right to try and take that in any circumstance. Also, I need a flexible religion. One that I can feel comfortable with, without having to make regular visits to a temple or church and feeling obliged to make regular financial contributions. Our temple is in our basement, and bringing up four children on the money we have, it is spent wisely.

A religion is a belief that one or more people share....and the world would be a boring place if we all agreed on everything.

Maybe we should all celebrate the differences?

Love, Kitty Gadol xx[/b]

[Kitty Gadol]

When I say I do not pray, but I do meditate, what I am saying is I find time to be still and quiet to get in touch with my inner spirit. I do not ask for anything during this time, or thank any 'one', nor do I speak to any 'God' as I see them. I am simply relaxing. Hope that makes sense!

Love Kitty Gadol xx

[Cid]

How can you be sure of that? Is it because the opposite would be too frightening?

 

Well Good question how can I be sure I cant but that is what fath is about, no not too frightening but some things cant be expland so we gess there is a god and if he is not true then we have nothing to lose when we die, I gess the thought of it brings hope to us.

 

As you've mentionned. But what would god do? Send you to hell? As you'Ve said, this belief has helped you, just like my belief that we are our own god as helped me, but aren't they both just beliefs, not religion?

 

Humm I think he would forgive me and let me go into heaven if it exsist, religion is over rated, dont get me wrong religion is a good thing but it is not my cup of tea if you know what I meen.

[Genesis]

I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to just say that the bible was "just" a book made by man then we can also make that same conclusion with every other religion that their is . I only believe in one true God and I feel that the only way a person can have eternal ever lasting life is to be saved & baptized. All religions do not lead to the same goal, so that is a very deadly conclusion to make! All religions that believe in giving your life to God and becoming saved, are the only religions that amount to the same goal. So the denomination really does not matter from Catholic, Baptist, and Methodist ect., we will all go the heaven.

 

I can not stress HOW important the Bible is! That is where all the answers to life are! Sometimes people do rely too much on what a "MAN" or pastor may say to them. The Bible even speaks out against false prophets, and tells us when we can not figure out a problem we should get our answers to lifes questions from the "WORD". Every question I have ever had in life I have gotten my answer from the Bible, not from what some preacher says, even though they are also very helpful to answering questions. The objective of going to church is for it to be a SCHOOL of Gods teachings! The Bible is the "text book"to life. For example, if you never study outside of the school, you will most likely be a poor student. So thereforeeee, how can one expect to gain anything from going to church if they never read their bible. So if you are wondering why you seem to not obtain any information or clarity by going to church, maybe it is because you do not read your bible very often? I use to be that way, and when I began to read my Bible more, church became more enjoyable and understandable for me. I feel as if, people these days are just to lazy to read their Bibles!

 

The Bible was a book that was written through the assistance from God, it was not a book that was just made up for any reason, or by any man's own will. The Bible tells the stories of who, how, when, and why each person was choosen to write each book of the Bible. If a person has never really read the Bible which most people have not, then they would not truly understand all that it has to offer or how it was created. The Bible is the most detailed and accurate form of religious documents in the world, no other religious book compares to the grandure of the Bible. Now people can go to the store and buy Bibles that are translated in modern English, so there are no excuses for not reading a Bible.

 

The reason you cannot worship other Gods is because "other" God's did not create you, and it is against one of the ten commandments. The Bible does say that people will go to hell if they do not convert and that is a fact, it is not something that I am saying to be mean. We all have plenty of time to see the errors of our ways and to give our lifes to Christ. The Bible says that before the 2nd coming of Chirst, the whole world will have had the opportunity to have the word of God preached to them, so there will be no excuses to not be a Christian by then!

 

I think that people do not know much about God, and for some going to a church is best and for others studying at home is the best. For me I am a member of a church, but I visit churches all over the country too. I READ the Bible that is the only way one can truley have an understanding of what it says. I have a Life Applications Bible which is written in modern English. I have learned more by reading my Bible on my own time. The purpose of churches are so people can have an outlet to praise God every week. Just think if there were no churches some people may never pick up a Bible on a weekly basis or even a monthly basis. A pastor is a teacher of the word of God, DUH. Just like we all went to school to learn, we must also know that learning the word of God is a life long educational process. My greatest wish to all those who have turned their back on the Lord is that they will one day see how great God is and give their life to Christ.

 

By the way: Witchcraft is an abomination to GOD, and a form of worshiping according to the Bible.

 

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 Let no one be found among you who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or cast spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is destestable to the LORD....

[Cure of Ars]

I firmly believe that He exists, but that the whole church institution doesn't fit me anymore.

 

 

This is interesting statement. If I believe in God and truth is it not my job to try to conform to God and Truth and not the other way around and have God and truth conform to us. To me if you are not submitting yourself to something transcendent that is calling you to change what is the point? You are not being challenged, and if we are not challenged do we ever change for the better?

 

I think religion is essential for our spirituality. We are not made to find God by ourselves. We need other people. Religion helps us break through to the transcendent. It connects us to our ancestors and their wisdom. It gives us forms and rituals to help us recognize and search for spiritual experiences. It helps us to see. To not tap into this wisdom would be like saying that I am going to make my own car, instead of relying on the advances and technologies that people in the past have made in building cars, because I want it to be my own thing. To me this is silly. God bless

[faeriechyld]

First of all, I would like to remind everyone that the original poster requested respect from all who replied. Enotalone will not tolerate any judgemental or discriminating terms or references. If anyone posts in a way deemed as judgemental or harmful, their post will be deleted or edited for disrespectful content.

 

Now, on to the topic at hand. I believe that religion is something to help people feel as if they are not alone. It gives us something higher than ourselves to believe in and that makes life easier. Having said that, I do have a religion that I believe in very strongly. I do not believe it is the right or wrong way, I believe it is a way for me. I do not follow it because I am lazy or ignorant, I follow it because I believe in it. It's really simple. I do not believe there is only one true way to the divine, I think it's great that so many people have so many different paths to spirituality.

 

Even though I am not a christian, I don't believe that the bible is just a book invented by man. What I do believe, however, is that the bible was passed down to man from divine powers and that through the translations and the like, the bible changed to become less of what was originally told and more of what man created, purposefully or not. Thomas Paine said it best in his book the "Age of Reason" as he said that a true "revelation" could only come from God himself to the person having the revelation. Once that first person tells a second person, the revelation then becomes hearsay. I agree with that. When we were kids, if your parents told you that they were buying you a hot new toy, and then you went and told your friends and they were like "yeah...right..." thereby what your parents said becomes hearsay to your friends.

 

That might not be the best example, but I hope you get the gist of what I'm saying. This is an interesting topic and I look forward to replies.

[OmegaMan]

Wow, I really enjoyed the last few posts, even got one of them moderators to join

 

I will write soon, I was waiting for posts just like the last one to prove ONE important point. Keep checking this thread, I will soon give you another opinion.

 

MODERATORS

 

I understand this is quite a touchy topic. I've mentionned that opinions were meant to be made in the most respectful manner, and I hope it remains that way. Howerver, it is a debate and some people might disagree with Christianity or Witchcraft or other beliefs. I just hope that as long as they say it in a respectful way, ALL points of view will be allowed to be posted.

 

Thank you for this great intellectual experience.

 

Omega Man

[Cure of Ars]

I do have a religion that I believe in very strongly. I do not believe it is the right or wrong way, I believe it is a way for me.

 

 

I have heard this a lot that there is not a right or wrong way. Each person has his or her own way. This has some truth to it in that we are all called as individuals to God in different ways. But to say that there is not a collective truth that we all must conform to, I would strongly disagree with. Although all religions have some truth to them they are not all equal in truth. Some are more true than others. It's all about truth. We should be willing to follow truth where it leads. For example, if your religion and/or spirituality rejects one of the cardinal virtues then it is not the right way. The Cardinal virtues are wisdom, courage, self-control, and justice. It seems to me there are some who want to follow their own way because they do not want to follow the cardinal virtues, especially self-control. Those with the spirituality that says "if it feels good, do it" are an example. But this quasi-spirituality is defiantly wrong and should be rejected. The wise prefer the good. The fool prefers the pleasant. These two positions are not the same thing. And the biggest area that our culture rejects the cardinal virtues is in regards to sex.

[faeriechyld]

Hello Cure of Ars,

 

I agree with your point, that every religion should follow the cardinal virtues, for if a religion doesn't have basic beliefs in those virtues, it doesn't seem much a religion at all. However, I do differ somewhat on the views of the "truth" and some religions being more "true" than others, simply because that is left up to individual interpretation and perception. What may be more true to you, may not be so true to someone else. No one can decide which religion is more true or "right" for someone else. Spirituality is a very personal and individual matter. Like I said though, I do agree that there are certain beliefs that should coincide between each religion.

 

Very insightful post. Good job.

[OmegaMan]

I've found some time to type my thoughs, pure and honest about organised religions, no more indirect messages, the whole truth, or as you will, MY perceptions of what truth is

 

What was good for someone then, isn't good for someone now. This is one reason that i think Christianity is have so much difficulty, they're just not changing fast enough. That, and i don't have faith in the catholic church at all... their history just seems really shaddy.

 

Pay much attention to this reply Genesis, as it gives you a hint as to why I believe organised religions have a tendency to outgrow their power. I don't know if you remember that, but the pope actually asked for forgivness concerning a few things the Catholic Church has done to the world. I think the very worst thing that happened in the Catholic church is the Witch Burning, the Spanish Inquisition. Thse people, who burned innocent women with no reason at all but their blind fanatism, their refusal to think, were so convinced that they held the TRUTH, that they there was only one god, they were blinded by certitudes and thus did what would be considered unthinkable nowadays.

 

This Genesis, is why is it dangerous to think that you hold the one and only truth, it leads you to the unacceptation of different spiritual beliefs than your own.

 

Do you know how to identifiy wether something is the truth or not? There's ONLY one judge who can do that, REALITY. If I say the sky is pink and you say it's blue, you WILL have the proof that I'm wrong and you're right, that you have the truth concerning this aspect of life. How can you say that you have discovered the one and only religion when it's not something that can be proved by cold hard facts that can be perceived by the human senses? This is why you cannot make a that statement. You have the right to your opinion, but saying you hold the truth according to something that cannot be proved is essentially wrong.

 

But despite the church, i believe that there is a God. There have been insidences in my life that just can't be explained away. I firmly believe, that i am alive today because something supernatural helped me out. And this supernatural being, i have labeled God. But he is so much more than just a label... the label is just because of a lack for a better word. Also, if you take a look at life, at the science of life, at how everything, left alone, perfectly balances... and i mean everything on this planet... it's like wow. There has to be an organization to all this... it couldn't have happened by chance.

 

That is your right. But there are perfectly logical and scientific explainations as to why there is life on earth, without the need for the supernatural. I think humans turn to god to explain things to which they can't find no answers. Remember when Copernic said the Earth was round? The Catholic Church threatened to burn him if he didn't change his statement, even if what he said could be proven by facts, wether what the church said couldn't be proven at all! In what kind of world would we live in if we explained everything and did everything according only upon our opinion withthout any facts, based only on things we invented out of our imagination?

 

Just because people aren't aware of the supernatural, it doesn't mean that they are living without them. I mean, if i stoped believing in science, would gravity stop holding me down? And i think those that choose to ignore all this, are more afraid of things than they realize, like turning a blind eye to everything that's going on around us. Fear, fear of the afterlife, fear of just living, is probably what's motivated all of us in the beginning. They fear most, not being able to understand. Trust me, i am terrified of my organic chemisty class... for the one reason that I don't really understand any of it. It is almost beyond my comprehension.

 

AH, but this where I can you're wrong my friend. You see, gravity can be calculated, it can be felt, this proves of it's REALITY. Where are your proofs that the supernatural exists? Have you seen it with your eyes, heard in with your ears? Touched it with your hands?

 

Remember how Marx sais that Religion is the opium of the masses? Well I think people believe in the surnatural because they are afraid to death to face reality as it is, just plain reality. Would it be that bad though? If there wasn't any god? I enjoy my life as it is, and I don't believe in the surnatural.

 

We can live without them, because they are around us regardless. And i don't know how to explain them to you because, they just are.

 

But how can you be so sure of something if you don't have any proofs? I just don't understand it, it's illogical!

 

Let me requote that part of Rand's Book:

 

A mystic is a man who surrendered his mind at it's first encounter with the minds of others. Somewhere in the distant reaches of his childhood, when his own understanding of reality clashed with the assertions of others, with the arbitrary orders and contradictory demands, he gave in to the craven a fear of independance that he renounced his rational faculty. At the crossroads of the choice between I KNOW and THEY SAY he chose the authority of others, he chose to submit than to understand, to BELIEVE rather than to think. Faith in the supernatural begins in faith in the superiority of others.

 

Ok, now on to Kitty's post:

 

I believe that spirituality and religion can exist as two separate entities, or as one combined. For me personally, my spirituality was awakened 18 months ago. By 'spirituality', I mean I became aware of my inner self. I started to realise that in every negative situation, there is a positive one and I started to see, and appreciate, the beauty of nature all around me.

 

I am so glad to read this You have changed your thoughts patterns so you could live in a happier and more constructive kind of way.

 

The reason we don't choose Christianity is because we feel it is wrong to claim to be the 'Only Way'. We have freewill, and nobody has the right to try and take that in any circumstance.

 

YES! That is so true! You have left the cavern (Platon's allegory), to reach for your own sun! In other words you have learned to think by yourself. I believe that a time will come, according to the way you evolved spiritually, when you will appreciate life as it is, without any form of supernatural beings higher than yourself. Man is an

end

in itself, period.

 

religion is a belief that one or more people share....and the world would be a boring place if we all agreed on everything.

Maybe we should all celebrate the differences?

 

Maybe we should, but part of being an individual is to debate with others in order to find his own personnal truth, his own personnal way. How can two people follow the exact same religion when they are both perfectly different individual??? Shouldn't they follow their own values, their own virtues, and not something that's imposed to them from their birth?

 

When I say I do not pray, but I do meditate, what I am saying is I find time to be still and quiet to get in touch with my inner spirit.

 

Hmm... is the term Spirit that I disagree with.. why not just medidate to make reflections as to how modify certain of our behaviours to make mus happier. Why the NEED for the magical, the mysticism, the surnatural. I just don't understand it...

 

 

CID:

 

Humm I think he would forgive me and let me go into heaven if it exsist, religion is over rated, dont get me wrong religion is a good thing but it is not my cup of tea if you know what I meen.

 

This saddens me, I think. You first mentionned that religion was firmly anchored into your beliefs and then you say religion is not your cup of tea?! If someone is religious, shouldn't be HIS cup of yea?? I don't see the coherency...?

 

GENESIS:

 

guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to just say that the bible was "just" a book made by man then we can also make that same conclusion with every other religion that their is .

 

Sure, my point exactly, why not? Religions WERE invented by man, unless you can prove otherwise.

 

only believe in one true God and I feel that the only way a person can have eternal ever lasting life is to be saved & baptized. All religions do not lead to the same goal, so that is a very deadly conclusion to make! All religions that believe in giving your life to God and becoming saved, are the only religions that amount to the same goal.

 

Argh.. ok. I respect that you think differently than I do... BUT, ponder on this. What would be the point of living, if you were to spend your life not on yourself, but on something that we aren't even sure exists?? Doesn't this sound life a blasphemy to life? Why should we any different than any other animals? Do you see them going to church? Of course not, they live for themselves, period. Why should we humans, as animals, be any different? I can only hope you can live for yourself someday, as self-sacrifice is plain wrong whatever the reason.

 

Catholic, Baptist, and Methodist ect., we will all go the heaven.

 

AH man, but don't you see? Hell and Heaven, it is sooooooooo simplistic. How could a god ever do something as childish as separate the good from the bad guys?? Some go to hell and others to heaven, this is obviously the invention of some guy who wanted other guys to behave better or go to Hell. And according to which criteria is someone good and evil?

 

I can not stress HOW important the Bible is! That is where all the answers to life are!

 

Oh really, how do you explain that I'm a happy successful man and I've found my own answers in life?

 

Sometimes people do rely too much on what a "MAN" or pastor may say to them.

 

And yet you are doing the exact same thing by following to the letter what someone else wrote. Did you realize that?

 

So if you are wondering why you seem to not obtain any information or clarity by going to church, maybe it is because you do not read your bible very often? I use to be that way, and when I began to read my Bible more, church became more enjoyable and understandable for me. I feel as if, people these days are just to lazy to read their Bibles!

 

I know it might sound like that, but I'm not trying to force your mind. I just want you to think, that's all. Question yourself, certitudes drive men BLIND. Remember what René Descartes said: I think thereforeeee I am. To be honest I'Ve read the bible and it felt like a fantastic novel to me, with angels with flaming swords and demons and a 9 headed dragon, I didn't enjoy it. As for church, the churches in my part of canada are desterted.

 

The Bible was a book that was written through the assistance from God, it was not a book that was just made up for any reason, or by any man's own will.

 

Ok, if I said that dog can fly, would you ask me to prove it? Prove me that the bible was written through the assistance by god. I want a cold hard fact that proves this.

 

The Bible is the most detailed and accurate form of religious documents in the world, no other religious book compares to the grandure of the Bible.

 

Oh really, tell me, what do you know of other religions? What about the Torah? How can you be sure of that? How can you make such a statement, have you read every single religious text on the face on the earth? No? Well you can't say that (fact).

 

The reason you cannot worship other Gods is because "other" God's did not create you, and it is against one of the ten commandments. The Bible does say that people will go to hell if they do not convert and that is a fact, it is not something that I am saying to be mean. We all have plenty of time to see the errors of our ways and to give our lifes to Christ. The Bible says that before the 2nd coming of Chirst, the whole world will have had the opportunity to have the word of God preached to them, so there will be no excuses to not be a Christian by then!

 

But Genesis, did you ever question what was said in that book?! I can only hope you did. Have you read where god turns the city of sodom to salt because the presense of homosexuals (thus killing them) Oh righteous is that? If the bible said jump down a cliff, would you do it?

 

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 Let no one be found among you who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or cast spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is destestable to the LORD....

 

Well, if the Catholic God is so close-minded that he hates those who practive different religion, if he kills homosexuals and send people to a place of infinite suffering, I'm much better than him and I don't want any of him in my life. I don't believe everything that I read and hear, that's because I'm and I think by myself.

 

I think religion is essential for our spirituality. We are not made to find God by ourselves. We need other people. Religion helps us break through to the transcendent. It connects us to our ancestors and their wisdom. It gives us forms and rituals to help us recognize and search for spiritual experiences. It helps us to see. To not tap into this wisdom would be like saying that I am going to make my own car, instead of relying on the advances and technologies that people in the past have made in building cars, because I want it to be my own thing. To me this is silly. God bless

 

Here's how I would build my car. I would look at all of the models out there, take what FITS my needs, discard what doesn't and build my own, custom made car that would fit me and no one else. How does that sound?

 

Faery

 

First of all, I would like to remind everyone that the original poster requested respect from all who replied. Enotalone will not tolerate any judgemental or discriminating terms or references. If anyone posts in a way deemed as judgemental or harmful, their post will be deleted or edited for disrespectful content.

 

Here's a definition of Judgemental to make judgments, especially moral or personal ones: a marriage counselor who tries not to be judgmental.

 

I'm afraid that considering such a personnal and moral subject as religon and spirituality, judgements will have to be expected. But, is it such a bad thing? Don't we all judge, interpret, think? This, in my opinion, is just so interesting, I enjoy reading other people opinons, thoughts. Even of one of them call me stupid, so what? Have we got fragile to the point that we crumble when someone call us names? I prefer a sometimes aggressive Freedom of speech to the absolute annihilation of censorship.

 

Now, on to the topic at hand. I believe that religion is something to help people feel as if they are not alone. It gives us something higher than ourselves to believe in and that makes life easier. Having said that, I do have a religion that I believe in very strongly. I do not believe it is the right or wrong way, I believe it is a way for me. I do not follow it because I am lazy or ignorant, I follow it because I believe in it. It's really simple. I do not believe there is only one true way to the divine, I think it's great that so many people have so many different paths to spirituality.

 

That is very wise, I agree with that. I'm actually glad you're admintting that religion is for you some creation to make you feel better.

 

Even though I am not a christian, I don't believe that the bible is just a book invented by man. What I do believe, however, is that the bible was passed down to man from divine powers and that through the translations and the like, the bible changed to become less of what was originally told and more of what man created, purposefully or not. Thomas Paine said it best in his book the "Age of Reason" as he said that a true "revelation" could only come from God himself to the person having the revelation. Once that first person tells a second person, the revelation then becomes hearsay. I agree with that. When we were kids, if your parents told you that they were buying you a hot new toy, and then you went and told your friends and they were like "yeah...right..." thereby what your parents said becomes hearsay to your friends.

 

This proves, that through the translations, the bible has become a collection of hearsays, agreed? Should we believe in hearsays?

 

Although all religions have some truth to them they are not all equal in truth. Some are more true than others. It's all about truth. We should be willing to follow truth where it leads. For example, if your religion and/or spirituality rejects one of the cardinal virtues then it is not the right way.

 

And how did you come to decide that? According to which criteria?

 

The Cardinal virtues are wisdom, courage, self-control, and justice. It seems to me there are some who want to follow their own way because they do not want to follow the cardinal virtues, especially self-control. Those with the spirituality that says "if it feels good, do it" are an example. But this quasi-spirituality is defiantly wrong and should be rejected. The wise prefer the good. The fool prefers the pleasant. These two positions are not the same thing. And the biggest area that our culture rejects the cardinal virtues is in regards to sex.

 

Good positive or desirable in nature

 

If I do whatever feels good, doesn't that make me seek what is desirable in nature? Am I not a good person if I do that?

 

Please define good and pleasant.

 

This is my post. It will surely shock many many people and may sound harsh. This is because I believe in my ideals, I have my own way of thinking and I am passionate about this subject. If you feel upset, don't. This is a debate, and a hot one too.

 

Now is your turn to reply. Bring me rock solid arguments, prove me wrong, are you up for the challenge? Defend your beliefs just like I defended mine.

 

Omega Man

 

PS: Give me liberty or give me death.

 

PPS: Please do not modify this post. I've taken so much time to express my thoughts.

[Genesis]

The Bible states that not every person will come to God. Not even the prophets were able to convince some people to become Christians. The day of judgment will come, and it will be on that day that we must accept the decisions we made in life. I hope that you will choose God. My point to you is to try to testify why I love God and believe in Him. I cannot control the thoughts or actions of any man, all I can hope is that more people will come to God.

 

I do not hold the theory of, if I cannot prove it then it does not exsist. I know that there are plenty of things that exsist that have yet to be proven, but do exsist. We have feelings do we not? Who is to say one persons feelings is more intense than anothers, or how do you prove feelings? Only the person can know what their true feelings are. I can smile at you but really feel sad, how can you prove that I am happy? That is how you prove religion. Religion is what it makes you feel. I can not prove to you that I am sad or happy, but I know how I feel inside. I know in myheart that by worshipping God it makes me feel so good, and it brings me so much joy! I know in my heart, that there is a God and that is all the proof I need! A perosn with out God could never experince the joy he brings, because you are with out God thereforeeee you can not prove he exsist. I however can prove that he exsist, because I can feel him in my soul and evey inch of my body.

 

You seem to confuse the actions of others as a representaion of all Christians. First of all I am not Catholic, I don't know nothing about the Catholic church. All I know is what I have taught myself and what I learned in church. All men sin, so to say just because the Catholic Church burned witches all Christians are bad is not a true statement. That would be generalizing, Christians today have nothing to do with the actions of some Christians of the past. I also know that it said in the Bible "no witch shall live", so I guess they took that to heart and killed them, but "thou shall not kill" should have over ruled that statement. They are men and men sin, men make errors in judgments. All men will fall short of the glory of God. Even if a man has done something wrong in the name of God , a thoughtful Christian will already know this is wrong, just by what the Bible says. Even thought I disagree with those who practice witchcraft, I would never want anyone to hurt or harm them just because of their poor choice in religion.

 

You should not live your life just by what feels good for the moment. Gods laws were created for us to live a successful life and to create offspring that may pass on our values, morals, and blessings. God made us so that we can create families that are good. Living an unholly life only causes pain in th end. God wants husbands and wives to love one another to stay faithful to each other. The family is the nucleus to all good things. A family without God produces, infidelity, which produces divorce, which produces, poverty, which produces crime. Crime is sin, the product of Satan and all destruction of anything good. Doing what ever you want and when ever you want is not always the best thing. Those who choose to have sex with many people may also get AIDS( condoms are not 100% effective). The act may have been fun for the moment but their actions resulted in the negative results. Choosing to not worship God is the same way, you may think that you are living and enjoying your life now, but what will you do when it is time for God to judge your actions? I guess you believe in no religion at all but that is your choice. I however think that your analysis of religion is only based on what you know in the natural world, but religon is constructed from the spritual world. That no human would be able to understand.

 

Sure, my point exactly, why not? Religions WERE invented by man, unless you can prove otherwise.

Quote:

 

The fact that you can not prove something does not mean that it does not exsist. There are thousands species of animals that have been discovered that we knew nothing of until we "proved" that they exsisted, but that still does not mean that it was never there in the first place, just because we could not "prove" it at the moment. If we look through out history we have made many discoveries that other wise seem unlikely to comprehend. God said that he will "prove" that he exsist on judgment day, so wait then to find out your answer. God will never be seen by the human eye, so you will not get your proof. He will come like a thief in the night, so you better get ready! He has even been described as being so magnificent that his image is even not know by the angels. God proved his exsistance by sending his son here to preach his word and to heal the sick. My brother is a doctor, and studies show that those patients who believe in God recover from deadly illnesses more often than those without faith. There are many people who have had been healed from their sickness, when the doctors said that they would not live. The are many books that give accounts of witnesses of angels. I truly believe that I have witnessed an angel myself, there is no other explanation for what happened to me( it is just to eerie) and can not be explained by any man! Angels come to visit us in the forms of humans, so you never know who you may be talking to! Just because you do not believe in God does not mean he does not exsist. Just because there is something that you can not see, smell, or hear does not mean that it is not present.

 

 

 

Argh.. ok. I respect that you think differently than I do... BUT, ponder on this. What would be the point of living, if you were to spend your life not on yourself, but on something that we aren't even sure exists?? Doesn't this sound life a blasphemy to life? Why should we any different than any other animals? Do you see them going to church? Of course not, they live for themselves, period. Why should we humans, as animals, be any different? I can only hope you can live for yourself someday, as self-sacrifice is plain wrong whatever the reason.

Quote:

 

Just because I believe in God does not mean that my life is not being fulfilled. My life has been filled with so many blessings that I cannot thank God enough everyday for my life. No, this is not a blasphemy to life because being a Christian has made my life the more better and peaceful. My life was painful when I was without God, my mother died and I gave my life to christ , and God took all my pain away. What do you think living is, living from one quick fix to the next? I think my life being a child of God is wonderful, so I would not trade my life for the world! If you did not realize we are humans and not animals, we have a higher ability of thinking then they do. A animals life cannot effect the world as much as a humans. Its offspring does not commit crimes, kill, rape, or come from broken homes without morals, to breed and create more broken heartless thoughtless people who do the same thing generation after generation. Populating our world full of valueless people with out morals, and discipline.

 

My large extended family is truly blessed with a line of people with no divorces, alcoholism, poverty, or abuse of any kind. I contribute my families happiness and peaceful life to being worshipers of God. God gave us the abiility to choose right from wrong, he gave us the will over our own minds. The tree of knowledge Adam and Eve!God gave us exactly what you preach about so much, free will, and the million dollar question is who will we choose when judgment day is here? That is what he wants us to do, you are so rigth, he wants us to think! He wants us to choose, he does not want to cherish and protect anything that does not want too be, on judgement day. So if you "choose " to be without God on judgment day that is your fatal choice and yours only. If you live for yourself how do you know that you are not putting your family in jepordy, for being without Chirstian morals. I really do not see how your life without Christ forms some higher ability of thought than any other person who chooses to worship God. I am not saying Christians are better I am just saying that we all are created equal, so your assessment of Christians as being people who cannot think for themselves is wrong.

 

 

AH man, but don't you see? Hell and Heaven, it is sooooooooo simplistic. How could a god ever do something as childish as separate the good from the bad guys?? Some go to hell and others to heaven, this is obviously the invention of some guy who wanted other guys to behave better or go to Hell. And according to which criteria is someone good and evil?

 

Religion is not about who is better than someone else, it is about who is with God and who is without him plain and simple( The saved vs. the un-saved). You become saved by confessing all you sins to God, and asking for his forgiveness. Then you are baptized and you will have ever lasting life with God. To your comment: I guess we should set all the prisoners free, because it would be "childish" to let people who deliberately murder and steal from others people live among law abiding citizens. Why would you want a murder who still has the same evil mind frame living next door to you? God does not want wicked people in heaven messing up things for everyone else? If the prisioner or "bad" person "served his time" then yes he can be let out. The same thing goes for a person who is a unbeliever, if he gives his "life to God" then yes he go to heaven!

 

This is black and white, with no gray areas in between Good vs. Evil. When judgement day comes you will have to make that choice too, do you want to folllow God or follow Satan. The criteria of who goes to heaven is based soley on if you have been saved/ Heaven or unsaved/Hell . So if one chooses not to give their life to Chirst at one point or another, or at judgement day( God will give all people one more chance to choose him or Satan at judgement day), then it may be likely that they will go to hell. God will be the final person to judge us all.

 

 

 

Oh really, how do you explain that I'm a happy successful man and I've found my own answers in life?

Quote:

 

Being an unbeliever who is happy now, has nothing to do with what will happen to you if you choose not to be with God at all. The Bible says that our life is like a breath of air here one moment and gone the next. You should be thinking about the happiness of your eternal life as well. The point is to follow guidlines to become Christ like, and to also have a peaceful eternal life. The Bible says that sure you may have a nice life here, but all your riches/wealth do not matter, because you choose to not be with God, and your enternal life without God will be much worse than any happiness you experienced while living here on earth. Your life here is only like the blink of an eye it is short, however your afterlife will be forever. The Bibles says that it is easier to find a needle in a haystack than for a rich man to go to heaven. So you may be happy now but what about later, you can have success here and also be a Christian too.

 

So your enjoyment will not be for long with out God. You are only living in this moment, so who is to say what your life will be like tomorrow without God. There are things such as generational curses( alcoholism, abuse, incest, infidelity, divorce) and who is to say how your children's life my turn out since you did not raise them to love and fear God. Your family may have generation after generation of some type of debilitating sin which cause them to never achieve happiness. You have not found all your answers because you are still without God.

 

Just as there are bad doctors, lawers, teachers, and what ever occupation one has choosen, there are those who do not do the job well. There are also bad pastors, preachers etc., that however does not negate or take away the importance of going to a good church. Like I said before one must read the Bible on their own time to become a better Christian in addition to going to a good church. Just like a teacher cannot make you study for a test. A preacher can not force you to know more about God unless you choose to.

 

I

know it might sound like that, but I'm not trying to force your mind. I just want you to think, that's all. Question yourself, certitudes drive men BLIND. Remember what René Descartes said: I think thereforeeee I am. To be honest I'Ve read the bible and it felt like a fantastic novel to me, with angels with flaming swords and demons and a 9 headed dragon, I didn't enjoy it. As for church, the churches in my part of canada are desterted.

Quote:

 

Just because you have not been to a church that has captured your attention does not mean that all churches are the same. I went to at least six churches in my home town before I found the one that I wanted to become a member of. The fact that you live in a town with no strong churches justs lets me know, why you are lost from God, and the type of influences you have around you. I want you to think also, that if you are so quick to defend other religions, maybe you should look more into Chirstainity. Why defend one more than the other? What parts of the Bible have you read or have you read the entire Bible? Please elaborate. I would like to know where you are having concerns.

 

Ok, if I said that dog can fly, would you ask me to prove it? Prove me that the bible was written through the assistance by god. I want a cold hard fact that proves this.

 

How can you prove any of the other "religions" that you may believe in? Can you prove that you will not die tomorrow or the next week? No, but you know that it is likely to be true that you will die someday. Just because you do not know who, when, or how, the orgins of Christainity took place does not mean that it takes away from its truthfulness. There have been reports in England of fish falling out of the sky, so who knows maybe a dog will fly if that is what it takes for you to believe in God. How can you prove that you will not be judged for you lack of faith?

 

 

 

Oh really, tell me, what do you know of other religions? What about the Torah? How can you be sure of that? How can you make such a statement, have you read every single religious text on the face on the earth? No? Well you can't say that (fact).

Quote:

 

I know a few details of other religions through studies from school, but I still choose not to follow any religion that is not of God. The fact that I have faith in God, and that he is all knowing and powerful makes me know for a fact that all other religions are false. By faith is where I obtain my truth.

 

 

But Genesis, did you ever question what was said in that book?! I can only hope you did. Have you read where god turns the city of sodom to salt because the presense of homosexuals (thus killing them) Oh righteous is that? If the bible said jump down a cliff, would you do it?

Quote:

 

The city of Sodom was destroyed because it was filled with an overwhelming amount of sin, not just because some of its citizen were Homosexual. The price of sin is death. If you drink to much and die in a car crash your choice to sin and drink to much caused death, if you sleep around and get AIDS the price of your sin is death. The city was filled with unlawful sexual acts, adultery, greed, filth among all people not just homosexuality. God was displeased when he sent his angels to save Lott from that wicked city, his angels were almost raped by these men. Who would have the nerve to try to rape an angel? God loves all people even those who are gay, but these homosexual men wanted to rape his angels. Rape is a vile act of crime on any type of person gay or straight. That city was destroyed because those people were full of wickedness, and not one person who lived in that city had any good in them. So I would not accuse God of being a homophobe. He hates the sin not the person honey!

 

God is the only one who can judge a person and determine their fate, not you so who is to say he was not justifed for getting rid of a breed of people who would only create more vile and wicked sinful people. If God felt those people could be saved or change from their immoral ways, he would have spared them. It was not like they did not have the chance to change, they chose their own fate. Those people were not the only ones who have been killed due to their wicked actions. I do question everything that I hear and read, so for you to think that those who choose to obey God are not thinking for themselves you are wrong. Every cause has an effect, and if a person chooses to behave in a manner which is harmful to themselves, or others they will have to pay to consequences.

 

 

 

Well, if the Catholic God is so close-minded that he hates those who practive different religion, if he kills homosexuals and send people to a place of infinite suffering, I'm much better than him and I don't want any of him in my life. I don't believe everything that I read and hear, that's because I'm and I think by myself.

 

God does not hate anyone. If you were a parent, and your child was on drugs, you may hate that they are on drugs but you still love them. God loves the person, but does not like that persons actions. God Loves ALL people he just hates that they choose to worship false Gods and Satan or disobey him by sinning. Would you want your children to leave you to adopt other parents? God is our father he can provide us with our every need. We are all his children, he gives us enough love, time, attention, affection, food, and money. He does not need someone else looking after his flock he can take care of all our needs and his own! He is not some teenage girl who has to give her baby away b/c she can not take care of it. He can provide and take care of us, why would he want to give up his children to inferior parents "other gods"? A child is the parents responsiblity not any one elses, a parent should raise their own children not someone else. Just because we may have made bad choices in the past does not mean we will be damned for life. All people can repent of their sins, and ask for forgiveness. The point that you misunderstand is that people have choices and there choices may effect the outcome of thier life for good or bad.

 

You can choose to do what is right and what is wrong, and even if you are walking in darkness now does not mean you will not see the errors in your ways later in life. God does not kill homosexuals or hates them, he dislikes the lifestyle that they choose. It is called disliking the actions not the person. [b ]Look at Leviticus 18:1-29, sexuals sin do not just apply to those who are homosexual, they apply to everyone. [/b] If you may be gay, I am sorry that you feel like God hates homosexuals, because he does not, HE LOVES THEM, he hates the SIN of homosexuality. Just like he hates when a guy goes out to a bar and brings a girl home to have sex with her, if they are not married. God does not like that act of a man being with a man, and woman being with a woman, because he created man,and woman to be together to create children. God does not kill homosexuals, he wants them to obstain from sex with their own sex. He wants them to stop sinning and change their life , just like he wants everyone else to. He wants me to change , he wants you to change , he wants everyone to change, because we all are not perfect! It is just as much a sin for heterosexual people to have sex without marriage as it is to be gay. God wants us all to follow his laws when it comes to sex, so we will not have to fear his judgment. When the day of judgment comes he will know what to do with those who choose to not follow his laws.

 

You continue to say that you "think for yourself" but my question to you iis why do you assume, that Christians are not having happy lives just because they choose to worship God. I think that you have misunderstood Christainity from a human standpoint to from what God wants on a spirtual standpoint. All men will come short before God and will all sin, so no one is perfect. No matter what you say you cannot change the mind of many strong Christians. Your lack of faith and disbelief have not proven anything to discount my belief in God.

 

Take care and God Bless! Omega!- God is the Alpha and the Omega. I hope that you will one day try to find a new beginning to your life instead of being traped at the end.

[OmegaMan]

Thank you for replying Genesis, you proved some points to which I agree to but also made a few incorrect assumptions that I will correct in order for us to understand each other better.

 

First of all, here's a quick definition of religion, just so we all understand one another:

 

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

 

I guess you believe in no religion at all but that is your choice.

 

Quite true, it is entirely my choice. It will also remain that way, hell or not. I am sometimes tempted to believed in a higher being in some way, but then I realise it is because I am sad and trying to create myself that does not exist.

 

I however think that your analysis of religion is only based on what you know in the natrual world, but religon is constructed from the spritual world. That no human would be able to understand.

 

You seem to have the little habit of contradicting yourself, Genesis . If no human can understand religion, how can you?

BOOya!

 

The fact that you can not prove something does not mean that it does not exsist. There are thousands species of animals that have been discoved that we knew nothing of until we "proved" that they exsisted, but that still does not mean that it was never there in the first palce just becuase we could not "prove" it at the moment.

 

I completely agree with that statement. But what you are doing right now is a sophism (A plausible but fallacious argument. Deceptive or fallacious argumentation) You are referring to species, correct? Does this not belong to the realm of the natural? This is why this argumant isn't reasonnable, simply because you are trying to compare the discovery of new species (a completely logical and reasonnable explaination) to the discovery of something supernatural.

 

Just because you do not believe in God does not mean he does not exsist. Just because there is something that you can not see or smell or hear does not mean that it is not present.

 

Well, it does, at least for me. I believe to be rationnal to consider that something exists if it can be perceived by man in some way or another. How could I think otherwise?

 

Just because I believe in God does not mean that my life is not being fulfilled. Being alive and not dead is the true defintion of "living." No this is not a blasphemy to life because being a Christian has made my life the more better and peaceful. What do you think living is?

 

You said, and I quote, Giving your life to God. This, this sentence means that you've given your life to god doesn't? To me, it sounded like sacrificing your life to god. By sacrifice I mean leading a life only based on the concepts of your religion.

 

If you didnot relize we are human and not animals, we have a higher ability of thinking then they do.

 

But we are animals, what else could we be? We used to be monkeys, now we're intelligent monkeys. Sure we can think more than they can, but we're still animals, wether you like it or not.

 

According to your logic, you stop being an animal when you're intelligent enough, thus are allowed to religion. How about animals, do they go to heaven to? If not, why? Because they're not intelligent enough? If some out-of-this-world specie came to earth, and they were more intelligent than we are, would we still have the right to god or would we become animals to them? I can't wait to see how you are going to defend yourself against this argument.

 

I really do not see how your life without Christ forms some higher ability of thought than any other person who choose to worship God or not worship him.

 

How? Maybe because I listened to what the Catholic church had to offer, and I decided to Think. Why don't I follow what is right for me, instead of taking the whole deal? Maybe because as an individual, I have my own values I choose to follow, my own virtues. This, my friend, is my spirituality, my inner self. And as you can see, there isn't one bit of mysticism to it. I have decided to live my life without having to lean on some invisible force. This is why I have a higher form of though than those who blindly follow organised religions.

 

Religion is not about who is better than someone else, it is about who is with God and who is without him plain and simple( The saved vs. the un-saved).

 

Ok. So an assassin, a man who burned innocent woman because it was the right thing to do, because he did it for god, will go to heaven. Tell me sir, how does this make any kind of sense?

 

I guess we should set all the prisoners free, because it would be "childish" to let people who deliberately kill and steal from other people live among law abiding citizens.

 

Another contradiction. Ok: Do you realise that you are comparing a human invention, the carceral system to a supernatural, omnipotent way of dealing with the departed? Do you realise that the concept of heaven/hell is so simple it screams human invention, much like the carceral system screams human invention? Do animals go to heaven/hell? Would an handicapped human, who is less intelligent than animals still go to heaven/hell? If God loves everyone, why would he send anyone to hell? Shouldn't he forgive?

 

When judgement day comes you will have to make that choice too, do you want to folllow God or follow Satan.

 

But what happens if I don't choose either? Do I wait in line ? Well you certainly seem to understand a lot for someone who says no one can understand the spiritual world.

 

So if one chooses not to give thier life to chirst at one point or another, or at judgement day then It may be likely that they will go to hell. God will be the final person to judge us all.

 

You know, God would go to hell if he was a mortal. Who is he to tell you: You either believe and me and do as I say or you throw you in a fiery pit. Ever heard of freedom of thoughts, God? I will choose who I want to follow, I will never sacrifice my right to make my own decision.

 

That has nothing to do with if you are happy "here" or not. The point is to follow guidlines to become Christ like, and to also have a peaceful eternal life. The Bible states that "sure" you may have a nice life here, but all your riches/wealth do not matter, because you choose to not be with God, and your enternal life without God will be much worse than any happiness you experienced while living. Your life here is only like the blink of an eye it is short, however your afterlife will be forever. The Bibles says that it is easier to find a needle in a haystack than for a rich man to go to heaven. So your enjoyment will not be for long. You are only living in this moment, so who is to say what your life will be like tomorrow without God.

 

LOL, but how can you know that? This is what is so absurd about the whole catholic story, how come can those who have read the bible suddenly know how it is supposed to work up there? And also, why would it be something so ridicously simple. Shouldn't something that is complicated be beyond human understanding?

 

Just because you have not been to a church that has captured your attention does not mean that all church are the same.

 

Indeed. Well Canadians Church are deserted (in Quebec that is).

 

What parts of the Bible have you read or have you read the entire Bible? Please elaborate.

 

The Genesis, the Apocalypse, that Ezekiel bit, I think that's about it. It was interesting, I was amazed as to how those were all metaphors who referred to our reality. Alas, what is said in the bible is often taken to it's first meaning. Did you know that there was once a battle on a plain, called Armageddon. Two armies fought there. Isn't odd that the battle of Armageddon in the bible has the very same name that this ancient battle. Why don't you draw your own conclusions?

 

How can you prove any of the other "religions" that you may believe in? Can you prove that you will not die tomorrow or the next week? No, but you know that it is likely to be true that you will die someday.

 

But I don't want to prove any religion at all. I don't believe in organised religions. I respect some of them because they make some people happy, like you Genesis, and as long as they don't touch my freedom, I don't see why they shouldn't exist. If religions innoculate values and virtues to some people that makes them happy, good for them. But don't they dare to cram my head with some pre-chewed thoughts, that would be an insult to my intelligence, to my right to have my own thoughts.

 

Just because you do not know who or when does not mean that it will not happen. There have been reports in England of fish flying out of the sky though. How can you prove that you will not be judged for you lack of faith?

 

You're right, I don't know when I'm gonna die. But I don't see why you bring this up, what this has to do with religion.

 

The fact that I have faith in God, and that he is all knowing and powerful makes me know for a fact that all other religions are false. By faith is where I obtain my truth.

 

Let me define Truth actuality. [/b]

 

You are allowed your truth, but as it doesn't prove in any way that it is conform with reality, no matter how much faith you have, it cannot be an universal truth, sorry.

 

I do question everything that I hear and read so for you to think that those who choose to obey God are not thinking for themselves you are wrong.

 

I'm glad to hear that, there may still be hope But you're not thinking by yourself, you are applying what some other man wrote down in a book.

 

All people can repent of their sins, and ask for forgiveness.

 

Ok, let's say I was a serial killer. But then as I was dying of old age, I would ask for forgiveness to god and live the rest of my life with him. Would I go to heaven? You seem well informed about the Judgement proceedings, please clarify this for me. Because God would forgive me as he loves me. Just because I had made bad decisions in the past would not mean I would be damned for eternity would it? I don't think you can answer this, because the bible is filled with contradictions and open to all kind of interpretations, opinions, no fact, just thoughts like that, out of thin air.

 

If you are gay, I am sorry that you feel like God hates you because he does not.

 

Nah, I'm not gay, I've had sex without marriage though. Does this mean I'm doomed to hell?

 

but if you want to change then I would pray to God to give you anwers

 

I would not need that. Don't you see? I can find my own answers, this is why I'm free of organised religions!

 

You continue to say that you "think for yourself" but my question to you why do you assume, that Christians are not haivng happy fulling lives just because they choose to worship God.

 

Actually, that's not what I think. I'm glad christians are happy. I don't agree with their need to rely on something other than themselves, but that's their life, not mine. What I don't agree with is when Christians prevent themselves from doing something, even if they think it is right and they want to, in the name of God. This is what I am against.

 

What is your belief or do you not have any type of belief at all?

 

I believe in my own values, virtues, in my home made code of conduct. And so will my children I hope, I would be devastated if I heard they became Catholic, that theu surredered they right to make their own code of life instead of it being dictated by a book or pastor.

 

No matter what you say you cannot change the mind of many strong christians

 

TAM TAM TAM TAAAAAAAMMM! BINGO! You have just proven my point. You say, change the mind of Strong Christians, and what is that, my dear, oh so dear Genesis, but a complete and utter refusal to question your beliefs, You, my friend, are refusing to think! You are saying that no matter how much I say or many proofs lay under your eyes, you will still clutch to your old beliefs like a drowing man to a sinking ship. Why do you create yourself this barrier, fear?

 

Your lack of faith and disbelief have not proven anything to discount my belief in God.

 

You say lack of faith? I have faith, in what? In me, only me and my loved ones. My disbelief, true, I refuse to belief what cannot be supported by reason or fact. BUT, should there ever be any proofs at all, I will praise god for the rest of my life. I am ready to think.

 

As far as you saying I don't have any faith and only show disbelief, doesn't the bible say not least ye be judged?

 

Omega Man,

 

I AM MY OWN GOD.

[Cure of Ars]

OmegaMan you gave a long post which would take a long time to address everything so I am not going to. I am just going to address your main arguments. You are right that there have been times when Catholics have not followed Jesus and have done some evil things. But this does not prove that the Catholic Church's teachings are not true. There will always be people who act like Judas in the Church. There will always be weeds among the wheat in this world. And just because something can be misused doesn't mean that we should not use it. The Holier something is the more it can be used for evil. This is because the corruption of the best is the worst. Religion is a holy thing and it can be used for great evil. So basically your answer to evil is to throw the baby out with the bath water. But to throw out the holy only leaves room for nothing, which is evil, because evil is the absense of the good.

 

Let me give an example how your logic is wrong. Our government has done some evil things in the past. For example America used Blacks as slaves and killed Native Americans. Does this mean that we should throw away all government? Do we stop being Americans and be anarchist?

 

Copernic??? I think you mean Copernicus and he said that the earth went around the sun not that the earth was round and the Church did not have issues with this. It was Galileo that the Catholic Church had issues with because he forced the issue into theology. Here is a web site that gives the Catholic perspective:

 

link removed

 

 

 

Remember how Marx sais that Religion is the opium of the masses?"

 

Actually Marx stole this saying from Heinrich Heine. I personally think that Communism is the opium of the masses. Marx actually believed that if you took away class struggle by taking away private property that it would make a utopia. Historically just the opposite happened. Communism killed more people that religion during the past century. It's ironic that you quote him. Not using religion did not make communism any less bloodthirsty.

 

 

 

Here are some questions that I would like you to answer. You say that you only believe what you can prove. I want to test this idea. Scientifically prove to me that burning witches is wrong. I bet you cannot do it.

 

Also you sound like a materialist because you don't believe in spirit. If this is the case do you view the love that you feel for your family as only chemicals in the Body. Is love to you on the same level as any other material bodily function like passing wind? If you give it any more meaning you are entering out of the natural and into the supernatural. If love is not spiritual but only material how much does it weigh? How much mass does it have? What color is it? What are it's physical properties?

 

I look forward to your answers. God bless

[Genesis]

Hello Oemga ,

 

I updated my other post a little bit so check it out.

 

 

Quite true, it is entirely my choice. It will also remain that way, hell or not. I am sometimes tempted to believed in a higher being in some way, but then I realise it is because I am sad and trying to create myself that does not exist.

 

If you are so sad why do you question something that makes others so happy! My God makes me happy and family my happy! We are blessed with more than the average American family. We are a family of doctors, lawyers, teachers, government Official, Engineers, and preachers. So I am sure we are capable of thinking or we would have not become successful in our careers. I am sure If you visited the Denver area and my brother were to operate on you, and you were dying you would not turn him away because he is a Christian and "cannot think for himself" sorry. Would you not want a Christian to pull you out of your wrecked car if you crashed, or are we just to dumb to think to know what to do? That is a very generalizing statement.

 

 

You seem to have the little habit of contradicting yourself, Genesis . If no human can understand religion, how can you?

 

I do not think that I am controdicting myself at all. It is not that a human can not understand religion, it is that we do not know all about the supernatural. The Bible was written as history. Like I said before many people have witnessed accounts of the supernatural. I think the purpose for the supernatural world is for the living to not understand how it works.

 

 

I completely agree with that statement. But what you are doing right now is a sophism (A plausible but fallacious argument. Deceptive or fallacious argumentation) You are referring to species, correct? Does this not belong to the realm of the natural? This is why this argumant isn't reasonnable, simply because you are trying to compare the discovery of new species (a completely logical and reasonnable explaination) to the discovery of something supernatural.

 

There are books about the supernatural effects of good and evil spirits. One book about demonic possessions( non-fiction), is very interesting and talks about an exorcism that took place in the 40's. It is the diary of a Catholic preist who performed this real life exorcism. This person who was possessed by demons, is still living today and lives a normal life now. This book can give you plenty of accounts of the supernatural. I have not read it yet( Possessed) , but I am really excited to, when I get a chance! There are plenty of books on angels and angels work. I fell that God has sent his workers or angels to help me!

 

One day when my father and I were driving to my families house in Augusta, Ga. Our car broke down on the deserted highway with hardly any cars on it at all. We sat outside looking at the cloudy skys for hours until it was almost dark. A man and a women stopped to help us. The man just happened to be a Honda dealership owner and he fixed our Honda Accord! His wifes name was Rose, which is my dead mothers name too. She was very kind and she gave me a one of those "What would Jesus do?" bracelets. She said that something in their heart told them to stop to help us. I think it was a message from God, most people do not stop to help people on the road when it is almost dark outside. Most people just drove by without even a glance. This all happened on the day of the anniversary of my mothers death, August 9th, when I meet a woman named Rose, (who has the same name as my dead mother), who helped me when I was in need. After we drove off, there were rays of sunlight bursting through every cloud as if heaven was shinning down on us. The weather changed in the blink of an eye. I felt as if these people were sent by God to help us. I also have survived two head-on car crashes which to this day I do not see how I survived, both crashes were by the fault of other drivers. My life has been spared many times by the grace of God. You may not feel that these testimonies mean anything to you but they mean the world to me.

 

 

You said, and I quote, Giving your life to God. This, this sentence means that you've given your life to god doesn't? To me, it sounded like sacrificing your life to god. By sacrifice I mean leading a life only based on the concepts of your religion.

 

Yes, I have given my life to God. The concepts of my religion are the foundations for any person who wants to become a person of integrity, character, and with values. A person who looks at how their life effects others and their families for generations to come. You act as if a person who chooses not to live in a wild manner is some how missing out on something. By me making the right choices I fell that I am doing more great things for my life rather than harmful things.

 

 

 

But we are animals, what else could we be? We used to be monkeys, now we're intelligent monkeys. Sure we can think more than they can, but we're still animals, wether you like it or not.

 

That is your opinion. I do not think we are animals or decendants from monkeys. I thought that the Cromagnants were decendants from moneys, but they are extinct, and not decendants of humans? I am faulty on my science facts, but that is what I saw on Discovery channel hehe.. . I forgot what the special was called, I think Cromagnant man Vs. ? man. I am not sure, I will have to research that. hehe... so much for that matter. I still do not think we are animals. Our race of people were not descendants of them (cromagnants/monkeys) they were a different species, and I do not think that were derived from monkeys. We are humans that is what we are, not animals. God gave us dominion over animals. I hope you think more highly of yourself than just being a monkey that talks. I think the age of the monkey man died along side with the Dinosaurs and every other extinct species.

 

According to your logic, you stop being an animal when you're intelligent enough, thus are allowed to religion. How about animals, do they go to heaven to? If not, why? Because they're not intelligent enough? If some out-of-this-world specie came to earth, and they were more intelligent than we are, would we still have the right to god or would we become animals to them? I can't wait to see how you are going to defend yourself against this argument.

Quote:

 

Yes, there are animals in heaven. Read the book of Revelation. So if you think that there are beings from outerspace then why can there not be a God? Some feel that there is life on other planets. We have the same amounts of odd proof of their exsistant as we do of God? Sightings, crop circles, abductions. We can just say that these people who see aliens are crazy but , how would we know if we were not there with them? I believe that as we learn many new things about the outerlimits of space, why can we not learn new things about the supernatural. If people have claimed to see spirits, and have encounters with the dead then anything is possible.

 

 

How? Maybe because I listened to what the Catholic church had to offer, and I decided to Think. Why don't I follow what is right for me, instead of taking the whole deal? Maybe because as an individual, I have my own values I choose to follow, my own virtues. This, my friend, is my spirituality, my inner self. And as you can see, there isn't one bit of mysticism to it. I have decided to live my life without having to lean on some invisible force. This is why I have a higher form of though than those who blindly follow organised religions.

 

I am not a Catholic so maybe you need to go to a different church, if the Catholic churches are not meeting your needs. Just because you are not a member of a church, does not mean you have a higher form of though. Following virtues that are away from God, does not make you some how the more wiser. If you can tell me something that will change my opinion for the rest of my life, which you have not, I do not see were you are coming from. I do not see how your "proclamation of yourself as God" makes you some how more inlightened. Some of the most brilliant people in the world were are Christians. Albert Einstien was a Christian and I do not think he had, an defective mind!

 

 

Ok. So an assassin, a man who burned innocent woman because it was the right thing to do, because he did it for god, will go to heaven. Tell me sir, how does this make any kind of sense?

 

I also answered that question on my other post it was updated after you wrote me back. If the man had been studying the virtues of God, he would know that he must control his anger in order to not bring himself to murder anyone. He would know that by having God in his life he can control his wicked thoughts by praying for clarity of thoughts. If he was already saved, he would not murder in the first place because he, obeys the word of God, which forbids him to murder. It all depends on 2 things: 1. God only can be the final judge, so it all depends on what he knows to be true of a persons character. According to the Bible if a person truly repents of their sins, and becomes saved then yes they will go to heaven if they commit such a wretched crime. (OR) 2. I do not think a person like this will be let into Heaven, if they are just using this as an excuse to commit murder, and they are not really sincere about their repentance. God knows if a person is sincere or not about repenting their sins.

 

 

Another contradiction. Ok: Do you realise that you are comparing a human invention, the carceral system to a supernatural, omnipotent way of dealing with the departed? Do you realise that the concept of heaven/hell is so simple it screams human invention, much like the carceral system screams human invention? Do animals go to heaven/hell? Would an handicapped human, who is less intelligent than animals still go to heaven/hell? If God loves everyone, why would he send anyone to hell? Shouldn't he forgive?

 

What else would could you compare it to? What would you compare it too? So are you saying that their should not be prisions? Are you saying that there is no right or wrong. If someone killed one of your loved ones would it not be wrong? So since their is no such thing as right or wrong this person should be set free? Why would God want anyone who is evil in his kingdom? If you had read more of your bible you would see that, yes people who are mentally unable to think for themselves do go to heaven.

Yes, there are animals in heaven, read to book of Revelation.

 

 

But what happens if I don't choose either? Do I wait in line ? Well you certainly seem to understand a lot for someone who says no one can

understand the spiritual world.

 

How cute, well It is not up to me God is the person who will judge you so he will decide, since you choose not to use your mental capabilties to make a choice. The Bible says that even those how choose God on judgment day, in the end may still not go to heaven. I understand alot because I read my Bible, and you can have the same knowledge that I know, if you ever choose to read yours more often. The bible tells us all of the preparation for judgment day how exciting!

 

 

You know, God would go to hell if he was a mortal. Who is he to tell you: You either believe and me and do as I say or you throw you in a fiery pit. Ever heard of freedom of thoughts, God? I will choose who I want to follow, I will never sacrifice my right to make my own decision.

Quote:

 

No, God would not go to hell because, he is not a mortal never has and never will be. He is of pure Love and Goodness! All things work together for good in his kingdom. So if your children wanted to trash your house, steal your money, disrespect you, be on drugs, and not follow the rules of your home because you did not want to infringe upon their freedom of thoughts, then that is ok because it is wrong to give a child displine? What if your childs thoughts are to not listen to anything you say, and raise hell? You must have not read the book of Genesis very well because God gave us the freedom of our own thougths, you do have the right to make you own decisions? He gave us the right to choose. You made your choice to not believe in him.

 

LOL, but how can you know that? This is what is so absurd about the whole catholic story, how come can those who have read the bible suddenly know how it is supposed to work up there? And also, why would it be something so ridicously simple. Shouldn't something that is complicated be beyond human understanding

?

 

You answered your own question!!! yeah!!!! They know how things work up there is, because the testiment of those people who have been there are in the BIBLE! Read the Book of Revelation! Maybe the detials of heaven ARE more complicated than we think, but God has to placate its explanation to us, so we unknowing humans can understand, that is my theory. It is like teaching children, you have to teach things on their level so they can understand. If you were to learn a new langauge , one would not expect you to be fluent right away, you would have to be taught at a level in which you understand.

 

 

Indeed. Well Canadians Church are deserted (in Quebec that is).

 

I guess I should write to some ministries to, try to bring more conventions to Quebec. If they can not get you to become saved, maybe they can get others!

 

 

The Genesis, the Apocalypse, that Ezekiel bit, I think that's about it. It was interesting, I was amazed as to how those were all metaphors who referred to our reality. Alas, what is said in the bible is often taken to it's first meaning. Did you know that there was once a battle on a plain, called Armageddon. Two armies fought there. Isn't odd that the battle of Armageddon in the bible has the very same name that this ancient battle. Why don't you draw your own conclusions?

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I am glade that you have read those books, now it is time for you to read more! Did you also know that the Bible was translated from Hebrew? So some names and locations were given more English sounding names , because other names could not be translated or hard to pronounce to the average English person. The King James version of the Bible was translated by people of English decent. Have you not ever heard that some words can not be translated form one language to the another? Do you really think a man from that region of the world at, that time would really be called Matthew or Timothy their names have been changed to common English names? Even the name Jesus is a translation for the Hebrew word Massiah.

 

But I don't want to prove any religion at all. I don't believe in organised religions. I respect some of them because they make some people happy, like you Genesis, and as long as they don't touch my freedom, I don't see why they shouldn't exist. If religions innoculate values and virtues to some people that makes them happy, good for them. But don't they dare to cram my head with some pre-chewed thoughts, that would be an insult to my intelligence, to my right to have my own thoughts.

Quote:

 

That is exactly what the Bible says that Satan wants people like you to think. You have no desire to seek God thereforeeee you are already very pleasing to Satan. Satan likes to disturb people, to knock them off their path to obtaining all the virtues of God. You on the other hand are right on schedule for Satan's plan, your soul is lost right now, without any wish on your part to change your destiny. There is alway time to change your mind, maybe not today, but one day you will see how good God is! Again, God gave you dominion to your own thoughts so there again you are wrong!

 

 

You're right, I don't know when I'm gonna die. But I don't see why you bring this up, what this has to do with religion.

 

You have brought up so many off they wall things, that do not relate to religion so, I guess I would too!!

 

 

You are allowed your truth, but as it doesn't prove in any way that it is conform with reality, no matter how much faith you have, it cannot be an universal truth, sorry.

 

It is not an universal truth to a person without faith but to a Christian, it is more truthful than anything that you or anyone else who is without God has to offer. The whole world does not need to believe, it is stated in the bible that not all will believe. So a truth for you may not be a truth for me.

 

 

I'm glad to hear that, there may still be hope But you're not thinking by yourself, you are applying what some other man wrote down in a book

.

 

Just because I worship God does not mean I do not think for myself. Please tell me how your "thinking for yourself" makes your life any different than mine? None. I am sure that you donot know anymore than anyone else, depending on your study skills, an what you learned in school, sorry. Everything you know can be learned at the local Library. So who is to say you some how do "more" critical thinking than anyone else?

 

 

Ok, let's say I was a serial killer. But then as I was dying of old age, I would ask for forgiveness to god and live the rest of my life with him. Would I go to heaven? You seem well informed about the Judgement proceedings, please clarify this for me. Because God would forgive me as he loves me. Just because I had made bad decisions in the past would not mean I would be damned for eternity would it? I don't think you can answer this, because the bible is filled with contradictions and open to all kind of interpretations, opinions, no fact, just thoughts like that, out of thin air.

 

If you were with God in the first place your soul would not be conflicted with demonic spirits that encourage you to kill others. You would be a person who is filled with peace, love, and slow to anger. Most of all you would have the Holly Spirit in you, which would tell your conscious that murdering is wrong. You would be consumed with guilt from the Holly Spirit if you acted out those vile crimes. Just like the basketball player from Texas, who killed his team mate was filled with guilt because his mind could not get rid of the guilt. The only way to relieve his pain was to CONFESS his Sins! If your are a Christian you can not run away from your duty to do what is right. You can not run away from your conscious of the sins you commited, because your heart would always be longing to do what is right in the end.

 

Yes, people who commit crimes may go to heaven if they sincerely repent of their sins. I am a member of a church that ministers to men and women who are in prision, as a part of our missionary program. I am not God and only he can make the final judgment of your character, but yes if you repent of your sins and give your life to Chirst you will go to Heaven. Saul who later changed his name to Paul, one of the most respected men in the Bible had an unfavorable past. He killed thousands of Christians in wars before he converted to Christianity. Then again Paul was called to preach specially by God, so who knows if God will use the same standards to judge Paul as he does for a serial killer. Paul wrote several books in the Bible. I am sure that he is in Heaven. There are no contridictions to that, If you REPENT of your SINS yes you will go to Heaven if, God permits. The point that the Bible makes is that you should follow the laws at all times so you should not have to question your salvation. If you obeyed God's law you would not have to worry about, if you will or won't go the Heaven, because you will go to heaven fo being obedient. The point you do not understand is that the people who will go to hell do NOT repent of their SINS, they DO NOT ACCEPT CHRIST AS THEIR LORD AND SAVIOR.

 

Nah, I'm not gay, I've had sex without marriage though. Does this mean I'm doomed to hell?

 

No , not if you repent of your sins and give your life to chirst.

 

 

Actually, that's not what I think. I'm glad christians are happy. I don't agree with their need to rely on something other than themselves, but that's their life, not mine. What I don't agree with is when Christians prevent themselves from doing something, even if they think it is right and they want to, in the name of God. This is what I am against.

 

Please tell me what Chirstians do that they want to do but can not do? I do not understand what you are talking about? I do everything that I want to do, so I do not have that problem.

 

 

I believe in my own values, virtues, in my home made code of conduct. And so will my children I hope, I would be devastated if I heard they became Catholic, that theu surredered they right to make their own code of life instead of it being dictated by a book or pastor.

 

Question: Would you rather have a child who is a Christian with a happy succuessful life. Or a child who is non-Christian who's life is in chaos due to a lack of structure? I am not saying only non-christians are in chaos, but that sounds like you a "contradicting" the very point you are tring to make? If one should seek out what makes them happy then why, would you not want what is best for your child, what if your child said that religion is best for me? You would be surprised to know that some of the best preachers come from families where the word of God was not taught at all! So there is a possibilty that you may be the Father of a child who brings many people to christ. If your child wanted to become a pastor would you frown upon him, thereforeeee taking away his right to choose?

 

The Catholic church is NOT the only church in Christianity. So why do you put so much blame on them, when they are not the only church which represents christians? I am not Catholic, I am a Missionary Baptist. That does not mean that I do not admire or respect the Catholic church, because we are all brothers and sisters in the kingdom of God. You do not make sense at all, if you care nothing for religion then why are you taking away your childs right to choose it? Are you not taking his/her rights away by telling him/her that they cannot become a Christian if they choose too? Are you not in trying to take away his power for choice and "independent thinking"? I independently choose to worship God. I have ande my choice and it is to worship God. Is religion not something that you have to think about independently and choose to join in the first place?

 

 

You have just proven my point. You say, change the mind of Strong Christians, and what is that, my dear, oh so dear Genesis, but a complete and utter refusal to question your beliefs, You, my friend, are refusing to think! You are saying that no matter how much I say or many proofs lay under your eyes, you will still clutch to your old beliefs like a drowing man to a sinking ship. Why do you create yourself this barrier,

fear?

 

You my friend have not PROVEN anything. The only thing that you have proven is that YOU choose for yourself not to believe in God. You have not proven that I do not question things, because I do. You have also not proven that a Christian is not an independent thinker. Just because you question something does not mean that ones opinion will change. So I pondered about the exsistance of God, and I still came to the same conclusion. I BELIEVE IN GOD. Innocent until proven guilty,you have not proven anything! The only thing you have shown me is that you do not know as much about christainity as you think, not enough to try to dispute its exsistance, or to make someone not believe in God. You have not proven that God does not exsist. All you have shown is based on YOUR theory of, if you can not see it, thereforeeee it is not real.

 

That however is only YOUR OPINION. I do not believe in that theory, because you can not prove emotions or feelings of others than yourself, you can only prove what you see on the exterior of a person, not what they are actually feeling on the inside. That does not mean what you see is valid, I may be smiling at you from the exterior prospective, but I may feel really sad on the inside. How can you then prove to me that I am happy, I am the only who knows the truth to that question. The only thing you have shown is that you choose not to believe in God. What may be clear proof of exsistance for me may not be that for you. thereforeeee I believe what I believe, and believe what you believe. The verdict is still up in the air!

 

You say lack of faith? I have faith, in what? In me, only me and my loved ones. My disbelief, true, I refuse to belief what cannot be supported by reason or fact. BUT, should there ever be any proofs at all, I will praise god for the rest of my life. I am ready to think.

 

Well I am glad that you will be joining us on Judgment Day in the line to heaven, because you WILL get your proof then, and you can praise God to the fullest!

 

As far as you saying I don't have any faith and only show disbelief, doesn't the bible say not least ye be judged?

 

I am not judging you, I am just telling you about my religion so that you may one day consider joining!

The Bible also says: Proverbs 27:6- Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses!

 

Which means that a person who is trying to help you, for your best interest may give you unpleasent advice at times, for your own good. An enemy on the contrast may whisper sweet words to flatter you and send you on your way to ruin! Jesus after all was betrayed with a kiss!

 

I know more people who are without Christ and their life is in shambles, than I do Christians. So that motivates me to follow God.

 

I AM A CHILD OF GOD.

[OmegaMan]

Thank you to Genesis and Cure Of Ars for replying.

 

Cure of Ars

 

You have brought some very good arguments, and I am glad that you did. Some of them made me change my perceptions on a few things, which was why I created this thread in the first place.

 

You are right that there have been times when Catholics have not followed Jesus and have done some evil things. But this does not prove that the Catholic Church's teachings are not true.

 

I am not saying that all the of the Catholic's teachings are untrue. As I've mentionned in the last post:

 

If religions innoculate values and virtues to some people that makes them happy, good for them.

 

And just because something can be misused doesn't mean that we should not use it.

 

Yes, I agree with that.

 

So basically your answer to evil is to throw the baby out with the bath water. But to throw out the holy only leaves room for nothing, which is evil, because evil is the absense of the good.

 

I wouldn't go as far as saying that though. Although I have decided that the Catholic church and to be unfit with my life, I don't think it means that I am evil, just that I've decided to follow my own path in life, to create my own spirituality, which consists of what I believe is right and wrong, my values, my virtues, my perspective on life, my life philosophy. I'm not sure If that's what you meant though, please clarify if my answer did not fit your expectations.

 

Let me give an example how your logic is wrong. Our government has done some evil things in the past. For example America used Blacks as slaves and killed Native Americans. Does this mean that we should throw away all government? Do we stop being Americans and be anarchist?

 

Well, here's how I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your Government in the States has changed over time, hasn't? I don't think the laws are the same as they were at the times of slavery. My point is, the government evolved, modified itself to better fit it's people's need, yes?

 

This is why I don't think you can compare the governement to religion, you know, I don't want to make some factual mistakes like I did In my previous post, so I'll limit myself to the Catholic church.

 

Isn't the bible the same old static thing? What I mean, is contrarily to your example with the Government, why did it not modify itself, why weren't corrections made?

 

So as far as your question goes, I don't think we should throw down all form of government. I think that we should constantly modify it though, so that if something immoral should be done, It could be corrected (just like the two examples you mentionned). I believe this answer this issue.

 

Copernic??? I think you mean Copernicus and he said that the earth went around the sun not that the earth was round and the Church did not have issues with this. It was Galileo that the Catholic Church had issues with because he forced the issue into theology. Here is a web site that gives the Catholic perspective:

 

Well, it's Copernic in french, Copernicus in english then. I have checked your link and read the whole story. If eveerything said here is based on facts, I gave another perspective on things. I'm glad you provided this link. I believe I stated what I had always thought to be fact in my mind, whereas It wasn't.

 

Actually Marx stole this saying from Heinrich Heine.

 

I did not know that, again, you've turned my head in the right direction

 

Here are some questions that I would like you to answer. You say that you only believe what you can prove. I want to test this idea. Scientifically prove to me that burning witches is wrong. I bet you cannot do it.

 

I cannot prove it from a scientifical point of view. I believe that facts should be used to judge any kind of situation. Burning witches is wrong because it is killing a human being without tangible proofs, more like actually burning someone to death. Isn't that a proof on it's own? I don't think can be judged on the ground of science. I believe it can be proved wrong on the ground of morality and what we have instituted as laws, which is my opinion, is a form of science.

Also you sound like a materialist because you don't believe in spirit.

 

I know you've made this assumption based on my posts, but you couldn't be farther from the truth. I don't believe in Spirit from the Mystical point of view. I do believe in a rationnal, personnal code of honor of some sort, constituted with virtues and values. I believe that what I call my code of honor is my spirituality, the equivalent of the spirit free of mystical and the surnatural.

 

If this is the case do you view the love that you feel for your family as only chemicals in the Body. Is love to you on the same level as any other material bodily function like passing wind? If you give it any more meaning you are entering out of the natural and into the supernatural.

¸

 

I believe love to be linked with our own personnal psychology. I don't see how it could be otherwise. I think the human psyche is natural, not surnatural.

 

GeNeSiS:

 

If you are so sad why do you question something that makes others so happy!

 

What I tried to say was that on the occasions that I was tempted to believe in a higher being, was when I in my period of sadness. Any clearer?

My God makes me happy and family my happy! We are blessed with more than the average American family. We are a family of doctors, lawyers, teachers, government Official, Engineers, and preachers. So I am sure we are capable of thinking or we would have not become successful in our careers.

 

I'm honestly happy that it does. I do refer to thinking by yourself on the first level. Please answer this: How young were you when you joined your religion?

 

I am sure If you visited the Denver area and my brother were to operate on you, and you were dying you would not turn him away because he is a Christian and "cannot think for himself" sorry. Would you not want a Christian to pull you out of your wrecked car if you crashed, or are we just to dumb to think to know what to do? That is a very generalizing statement

 

As I've mentionned, I haven't said that you cannot think, I am referring to the concept of thinking for oneself in contrast to thinking as a collectivity, which is what organised religion are for me.

 

LOL, I can't believe you thought I said Christians we dumb! That would've been so stupid of me! Of course not, check out Cure of Ars's post, that guy is obviously quite intelligent. So was Martin Luther King (Cure Of Ars, correct me on this one ). I am not questionning your intelligence at all. I hope this is clear, am I apologise if this insulted you in any way.

 

I do not think that I am controdicting myself at all. It is not that a human can not understand religion, it is that we do not know all about the supernatural. The Bible was written as history. Like I said before many people have witnessed accounts of the supernatural. I think the purpose for the supernatural world is for the living to not understand how it works.

 

Well, as I've said, how can you explain to me how the last judgement goes and hell and heaven and so on? Isn't that the surnatural? How can you explain it? Because It's written in a bible? I thought the Bible and Jesus was reknown of his allegories and paraboles (I don't how this is sais in english)? Do you honestly think that everything in the bible must be taken per se? Do you not think that you should question and wonder what is really meant by each sentence in that book?

 

Please admit that this is a contradiction, it wouldn't be the end of the world:

 

1. You explain to me things of the surnatural: Heaven, Hell, Last Judgement, Angels (we do agree this is the surnatural)

 

2.You mention that we cannot understand the surnatural, Well, how then can you explain it?

 

There are books about the supernatural effects of good and evil spirits. One book about demonic possessions( non-fiction), is very interesting and talks about an exorcism that took place in the 40's. It is the diary of a Catholic preist who performed this real life exorcism. This person who was possessed by demons, is still living today and lives a normal life now. This book can give you plenty of accounts of the supernatural. I have not read it yet( Possessed) , but I am really excited to, when I get a chance! There are plenty of books on angels and angels work. I fell that God has sent his workers or angels to help me!

 

Are you aware that just about anyone can write a book on just about anything? Do you think that everything that is in a book is automatically true? This is what thinking by yourself means, reading something ans questionning wether or not it's true. This argument isn't solid.

 

One day when my father and I were driving to my families house in Augusta, Ga. Our car broke down on the deserted highway with hardly any cars on it at all. We sat outside looking at the cloudy skys for hours until it was almost dark. A man and a women stopped to help us. The man just happened to be a Honda dealership owner and he fixed our Honda Accord! His wifes name was Rose, which is my dead mothers name too. She was very kind and she gave me a one of those "What would Jesus do?" bracelets. She said that something in their heart told them to stop to help us. I think it was a message from God, most people do not stop to help people on the road when it is almost dark outside. Most people just drove by without even a glance. This all happened on the day of the anniversary of my mothers death, August 9th, when I meet a woman named Rose, (who has the same name as my dead mother), who helped me when I was in need. After we drove off, there were rays of sunlight bursting through every cloud as if heaven was shinning down on us. The weather changed in the blink of an eye. I felt as if these people were sent by God to help us. I also have survived two head-on car crashes which to this day I do not see how I survived, both crashes were by the fault of other drivers. My life has been spared many times by the grace of God. You may not feel that these testimonies mean anything to you but they mean the world to me.

 

But why can't it be probabilities, albeit small one? I do agree this is a lot of coincidences though. But you know how sometimes you become so sure of something that it alters your perception, that you pay more attention to details, to what you want to see. That part about the sky and the light is a proof of that I believe. You saw and interpreted what you wanted to see.

 

act as if a person who chooses not to live in a wild manner is some how missing out on something.

 

OH wild manner is it? Define this with words please.

 

That is your opinion. I do not think we are animals or decendants from monkeys. I thought that the Cromagnants were decendants from moneys, but they are extinct, and not decendants of humans? I am faulty on my science facts, but that is what I saw on Discovery channel hehe.. . I forgot what the special was called, I think Cromagnant man Vs. ? man. I am not sure, I will have to research that. hehe... so much for that matter. I still do not think we are animals. Our race of people were not descendants of them (cromagnants/monkeys) they were a different species, and I do not think that were derived from monkeys. We are humans that is what we are, not animals. God gave us dominion over animals. I hope you think more highly of yourself than just being a monkey that talks. I think the age of the monkey man died along side with the Dinosaurs and every other extinct species.

 

If I scientifically proved to you that we are a form of evolved animals, would you finally admit it or would you still refute it?

 

Yes, there are animals in heaven. Read the book of Revelation. So if you think that there are beings from outerspace then why can there not be a God? Some feel that there is life on other planets. We have the same amounts of odd proof of their exsistant as we do of God? Sightings, crop circles, abductions. We can just say that these people who see aliens are crazy but , how would we know if we were not there with them? I believe that as we learn many new things about the outerlimits of space, why can we not learn new things about the supernatural. If people have claimed to see spirits, and have encounters with the dead then anything is possible.

 

I haven't said I thought there was thing from outer space. If I did though, it would still belong to the realm of the natural, the physical, the real. I don't think we have to be next to someone to believe what he said. I would be tempted to agree with your argument about your comparison with a life in outer space and the surnatural.

 

I am not a Catholic so maybe you need to go to a different church, if the Catholic churches are not meeting your needs. Just because you are not a member of a church, does not mean you have a higher form of though. Following virtues that are away from God, does not make you some how the more wiser. If you can tell me something that will change my opinion for the rest of my life, which you have not, I do not see were you are coming from. I do not see how your "proclamation of yourself as God" makes you some how more inlightened. Some of the most brilliant people in the world were are Christians. Albert Einstien was a Christian and I do not think he had, an defective mind!

 

A higher form of thought, again we would have to define what we mean by that. My proclamation as god must not be taken to it's first meaning. What I mean by that is that Man is an End in himself, period. And so the only form of God I must give my life to is me.

 

Albert Einstein was a genious in physics (correct me if I'm wrong). He discovered something new that made the science of physics evolve. I am searching the world of spirituality, the world of organised religion to find an evoluation in my own spirituality.

 

Just because someone is a genious in one field of life does not make him a free thinker. Take the Nazis for example, for them to have succeeded (I don't like the word either) they had to have some extremely intelligent people in their ranks. And yet they did not think by themselves, they thought as a collectivity. Do you understand now what I mean by thinking by one self ( not to be confused by intelligence).

 

I also answered that question on my other post it was updated after you wrote me back. If the man had been studying the virtues of God, he would know that he must control his anger in order to not bring himself to murder anyone. He would know that by having God in his life he can control his wicked thoughts by praying for clarity of thoughts. If he was already saved, he would not murder in the first place because he, obeys the word of God, which forbids him to murder. It all depends on 2 things: 1. God only can be the final judge, so it all depends on what he knows to be true of a persons character. According to the Bible if a person truly repents of their sins, and becomes saved then yes they will go to heaven if they commit such a wretched crime. (OR) 2. I do not think a person like this will be let into Heaven, if they are just using this as an excuse to commit murder, and they are not really sincere about their repentance. God knows if a person is sincere or not about repenting their sins.

 

You know what bothers me about redemption? It's too easy. People used to buy redemption at some point !! Or simply go to church, confess something, say a prayer and be automatically cleansed. Do you honestly agree with that? Maybe, as Ars said, this is just another wrong conduits of something that is fundamentaly good though. You tell me.

 

What else would could you compare it to? What would you compare it too? So are you saying that their should not be prisions? Are you saying that there is no right or wrong. If someone killed one of your loved ones would it not be wrong? So since their is no such thing as right or wrong this person should be set free? Why would God want anyone who is evil in his kingdom? If you had read more of your bible you would see that, yes people who are mentally unable to think for themselves do go to heaven.

Yes, there are animals in heaven, read to book of Revelation.

 

There should be prison, this is the current solution to some aspect of our criminalitym the human solution to it. There is a right and a wrong, which differs from each person but must sometimes be treated as a collectivity in order to assure functional societies.

 

Why would God have something so simply human as Kingdom, so simply human as one way for someone who is good and the other who is evil? Even we human know that a person is not as simple as either one of two entity, good or evil, why would god be even more simplistic than we are? Why should the realm of what is beyond us, be undestandable by us, by our our own human concepts? How can something so... huge.. so.. beyond the beyond that would be the concept of afterlife be understandable by our intelligence? Why would god think on the same terms than we do? Does he have a human brain? Answer these questions and I will join my nearby church.

 

How cute

 

Hey thanks, hope you are not coming on to me though.. you what happens with that.

 

You answered your own question!!! yeah!!!! They know how things work up there is, because the testiment of those people who have been there are in the BIBLE! Read the Book of Revelation! Maybe the detials of heaven ARE more complicated than we think, but God has to placate its explanation to us, so we unknowing humans can understand, that is my theory. It is like teaching children, you have to teach things on their level so they can understand. If you were to learn a new langauge , one would not expect you to be fluent right away, you would have to be taught at a level in which you understand.

 

I don't see how I've answered my question!? Yeah! Well that is your theory. Those who wrote the bible were men weren't they? Have you thought that maybe, just maybe they wrote the bible so that it you can see beyond the words and make your own interpretation. Isn't that the reason spoke in allegories all the time?

 

That is exactly what the Bible says that Satan wants people like you to think.

 

So Satan is trying to make me believe something, does this mean I'm possessed? Please explain, I'm as good an interpreter of the surnatural as you are.

 

You on the other hand are right on schedule for Satan's plan, your soul is lost right now, without any wish on your part to change your destiny. There is alway time to change your mind, maybe not today, but one day you will see how good God is! Again, God gave you dominion to your own thoughts so there again you are wrong!

 

But I do more for my community than most people that go to church! I volunteer quite a lot and help my loved ones so much. How can you say that I am on Satan's path? While you are in church I'm probably xoing therapy with alcoholics!

 

You're right, I don't know when I'm gonna die. But I don't see why you bring this up, what this has to do with religion.

 

 

You have brought up so many off they wall things, that do not relate to religion so, I guess I would too!!

 

C'mon now, that's weak, you can do better than that

 

It is not an universal truth to a person without faith but to a Christian, it is more truthful than anything that you or anyone else who is without God has to offer.

 

As you say, to a Christian it is your truth, but not the universal one. I'm glad you're finally admitting that one .

 

So a truth for you may not be a truth for me.

Music to my ears, pure music.

 

I am sure that you donot know anymore than anyone else

 

LOL, oh really? Well, we've known each other for so long, I guess you are entitled to say that! LOL!

 

Everything you know can be learned at the local Library.

 

LOL! How can anyone say that? LOL! So everything I know can be learned at a local library, right? Is this humor or what?

 

So who is to say you some how do "more" critical thinking than anyone else?

 

Well for one thing I don't pretend that you know what you've learned at a local library and that you don't know more than anyone else. In my code of honor, this is called Respect. I consider disrespectful in a debate when someone make such statements, I'm not a catholic, but I respect my fellow man enough not to make such unfounded statements. How's that for a spirituality?

 

demonic spirits that encourage you to kill others.

Demonic spirits? Please explain.

 

No , not if you repent of your sins and give your life to chirst.

 

But I enjoy having before marriage, I don't want to repent. So I'll go to hell because I didn't repent for loving someone so much that we united ourselves in a night of passionate love before marriage? Well then I'm guilty.

 

Or a child who is non-Christian who's life is in chaos due to a lack of structure?

 

We both know there are millions of people out there with a lot of structue without the presense of religon in their life.

 

If your child wanted to become a pastor would you frown upon him, thereforeeee taking away his right to choose?

 

I would be disapointed. But I would accept his decision over time I suppose, as I love him/her.

 

Are you not in trying to take away his power for choice and "independent thinking"? I independently choose to worship God. I have ande my choice and it is to worship God. Is religion not something that you have to think about independently and choose to join in the first place?

 

As I've said, I would allow it, but I would be devastated.

 

You my friend have not PROVEN anything.

 

Haven't I?

 

The only thing that you have proven is that YOU choose for yourself not to believe in God. You have not proven that I do not question things, because I do.

 

Then why don't you question wathever is written in books as not being essentially the truth.

 

because you question something does not mean that ones opinion will change. So I pondered about the exsistance of God, and I still came to the same conclusion. I BELIEVE IN GOD. Innocent until proven guilty,you have not proven anything! The only thing you have shown me is that you do not know as much about christainity as you think, not enough to try to dispute its exsistance, or to make someone not believe in God.

 

Maybe you're right. I know enough to have made a decision though.

 

You have not proven that God does not exsist. All you have shown is based on YOUR theory of, if you can not see it, thereforeeee it is not real.

 

I can't prove that God doesn't exist, nobody can. I can mention the reasons why he doesn't exist though. Reality is what can be felt or perceived, to me nothingness is the equivalent of non-reality.

 

That however is only YOUR OPINION.

 

Indeed it is, much like what you said is YOUR OPINION (like you say, all in capital letters).

 

The only thing you have shown is that you choose not to believe in God. What may be clear proof of exsistance for me may not be that for you. thereforeeee I believe what I believe, and believe what you believe. The verdict is still up in the air!

 

And always will be. Yet we managed to write 6 pages long of reply about it. I, however have changed some of my percetions on religions, and I'm glad for that. I just wish through everything that was said you could have modified your thoughts a bit, but I think you are thinking the exact same way as you did in the beginning. That is your right, but what is the point of discussing anything if you are not open to change some things about the way you think?

 

This is how I see discussion, as an occasion to grow spiritually and intellectually by listening what the other has to say. If you prefer a more static form of thoughts, that is fine too.

 

Well I am glad that you will be joining us on Judgment Day in the line to heaven, because you WILL get your proof then, and you can praise God to the fullest!

 

Actually, after everything un-catholic I've written here, I'll probably be burning in the flames of hell.

 

I am not judging you, I am just telling you about my religion so that you may one day consider joining!

 

I consider judging when someone tells me that everything I know can be learned from a local library. But that's just me.

 

Which means that a person who is trying to help you, for your best interest may give you unpleasent advice at times, for your own good. An enemy on the contrast may whisper sweet words to flatter you and send you on your way to ruin! Jesus after all was betrayed with a kiss!

 

Yes, I suppose. As our views on religion are diametrically opposed. Is there anything that I've said that made you modify just about anything about your views on your religion?

 

Take Care and reply soon.

 

Omega Man,

 

Man is an end in itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've searched for a definition of the Catholic Church:

 

The faith, doctrine, system, and practice of a Catholic church, especially the Roman Catholic Church.

[Cure of Ars]

You are a good person to talk to. You are honest and you take my arguments seriously. I respect you for this. I have also learned some things from you. I had thought that it was mostly Protestants that burned witches. I was wrong on this point.

 

I wouldn't go as far as saying that though. Although I have decided that the Catholic church and to be unfit with my life, I don't think it means that I am evil, just that I've decided to follow my own path in life, to create my own spirituality, which consists of what I believe is right and wrong, my values, my virtues, my perspective on life, my life philosophy. I'm not sure If that's what you meant though, please clarify if my answer did not fit your expectations.

 

My argument's goal are more modest at this point. I am just trying to get you into organized religion. The Catholic Church as one of the religions to consider will come later. We were not made to have an individualistic spirituality. We were made for community and our spirituality should encompass every aspect of our life. It should not be something that we hide in the closet. Our spirituality should also link us to the Historical past and our ancestors but at the some time connect us for those who will be in the future. Without others as part of our spirituality we become self-centered and our spirituality dies.

 

 

 

I want to challenge you on something. You make it sound like you are the source of truth and reality. You say, my right and wrong, "my values, my virtues, my perspective on life, my life philosophy". Truth is Truth no matter what your perspective is. Truth is not dependent on us. Our job is not to be God and try to fit reality to us but the other way around. We are to conform ourselves to truth. I want you to try to imagine a world were virtues were dependent on you. And lets say you do not like the Cardinal virtue of courage. Can you imagine being cowardly and this being virtuous? Can being a coward ever lead to the good? If not then virtues are not dependent on you and your perspective. They are a part of natural law.

 

 

Well, here's how I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your Government in the States has changed over time, hasn't? I don't think the laws are the same as they were at the times of slavery. My point is, the government evolved, modified itself to better fit it's people's need, yes?

 

Our government is still made up of imperfect humans and it will abuse it's power because of this. The US has developed in a lot of ways and it has a lot of good things going for it. But I would argue that the US kills more innocent people today then the Catholic Church did 500 years ago. I do not want to get sidetrack on this though.

 

I find it interesting that you see the improvement based on "people's needs" and not on natural law. Slavery did profit the people of America at the time if you were white. If morality is just social constants that is made by government and that there is not an absolute moral law apart from it then the US was not wrong for slavery. I hear this belief a lot. That right and wrong is just made by a particular culture and society and that there is not an absolute right or wrong. But if this is the case then the US was not acting immorally. This perspective of moral relativism is basically "might makes right". It is in fact a very dangerous perspective because anything can go depending on who is in power.

 

 

Isn't the bible the same old static thing? What I mean, is contrarily to your example with the Government, why did it not modify itself, why weren't corretions made?

 

Not quite. The Catholic position on this is that we have a deposit of faith. That is what God has revealed to humanity and we have access to this deposit of faith by apostolic tradition and sacred scripture with teaching authority of Church guarding this deposit. Now this deposit of faith can never change. But our understanding of it does grow and develop. It technically does not evolve because then it would mean that the deposit of faith has mutated into something that it did not originally have. I view it kind of like human life. At conception all the DNA mapping is present for the whole person but at that point it is only one cell. Over time the DNA does it thing and the person develops into childhood, adulthood, and then old age. It is the same person through out the life span but it develops and looks different through time. An historical example of this is the Canon of the Bible. The early Church did not know what books were inspired. This issue was not settled and defined by the Church until the year 390 at the council of Hippo.

 

I think that the fact that the people in the Catholic Church has done some evil things keeps us in touch with reality that our Church is not perfect and that we need to work to make sure that we are being faithful to Christ and not selling out His truth.

 

 

I believe love to be linked with our own personnal psychology. I don't see how it could be otherwise. I think the human psyche is natural, not superrnatural.

 

 

I want your response to the following quote.

 

"Nature is quite powerless to produce rational thought: not that she never modifies our thinking but that the moment she does so, it ceases (for that very reason) to be rational. For, as we have seen, as train of thought loses all rational credentials as soon as it can be shown to be wholly the result of nonrational causes." (C.S. Lewis, Miracles, pg. 37)

 

God bless

[Genesis]

Hello Omega,

 

Here is my post again. I am sorry if you felt that I was insulting you in the last post. That was not my intention.

 

I'm honestly happy that it does. I do refer to thinking by yourself on the first level. Please answer this: How young were you when you joined your religion?

Quote:

 

I have gone to church since I was a young girl, but I gave my life to christ at the age of 15. I went to church for many years without listening to any of the messages. When my mother died, I was angry at God for taking her away from me so, I did not go to church for a couple of years. Then one day my father asked me why have I not given my life to Christ yet. I told him because I was not ready yet. My father is a man who many consider manly man. A man who is 6'2 230 pounds, a former college football player, a former nuclear weapons officer in the Army, and engineer.

 

I have never seen him emotional before but he cried about me not being saved. He wanted all his children to be Christians, and I was the only one who would not join the church. I have never seen him cry before, he even keep his emotions inside at my mothers funeral. To see someone have such strong emotion about me becoming a member of the church made me think about joining my church. A year later I decided to give my life to Christ. It was my choice to join the church.

 

 

As I've mentionned, I haven't said that you cannot think, I am referring to the concept of thinking for oneself in contrast to thinking as a collectivity, which is what organised religion are for me.

 

I do think for myself. You can not prove in anyway that I do not think for myself. People of the church do not all think collectively so there again you are wrong. Christians all have their own opinions about the text of the Bible. Your are just making a generilzing statements, because you do not know enough about the Bible, to support your argument.

 

 

Well, as I've said, how can you explain to me how the last judgement goes and hell and heaven and so on? Isn't that the surnatural? How can you explain it? Because It's written in a bible? I thought the Bible and Jesus was reknown of his allegories and paraboles (I don't how this is sais in english)? Do you honestly think that everything in the bible must be taken per se? Do you not think that you should question and wonder what is really meant by each sentence in that book?

Please admit that this is a contradiction, it wouldn't be the end of the world:

 

As I said before the preparations for Judgment Day are written in the book of Revelation. Your opinions of the Bible are not all accurate, because you have not read enough of it to know what is going on. The Bible is not a book that is JUST filled with Jesus making parables through out the entire book. The Bible is broken up into the Old Testament (39 books) and the New Testament (27 books). The Bible begins with creation, and then speaks about the events and lives of many people, that spans out for thousands of years before Jesus Christ was even born. Jesus' life is not discussed in the Bible until the New Testament. The Bible was being written thousands of years BEFORE Jesus was born.

 

Yes Jesus, is known for his parables. You are presumptous to think that people DO NOT, question every sentence in the Bible. The mistake that you make is that you think Christians do not analysis and debate the meaning of every sentence in the Bible, they DO. There have been debates about the meaning of every sentence in the Bible, in order to preach to Christians the true meaning of each text. Christains also must read their Bibles, and come to their own conclusion about what the text means to them, in addition to what they have been taught. The factor that you cannot understand, is that even if Christians question the meaning of each sentence in the Bible, that does not make them stop BELIEVING IN GOD.

 

1

. You explain to me things of the surnatural: Heaven, Hell, Last Judgement, Angels (we do agree this is the surnatura l

)

2.You mention that we cannot understand the surnatural, Well, how then can you explain it?

 

Like I said before I do not think that the supernatural is meant for the living to understand only the dead. Just as we live in this tiny solar system there are solar systems, and galaxies light years away, that we can never understand or learn more about because we are not capable of doing that right now. We know that they are there, we just cannot explore them to detail.

 

Yes, heaven and hell are supernatural . Like I said before, if you have never experienced the supernatural then you could not believe in it, I have. I have experienced the presense of an demonic force trying to enter my body. The demon spoke to me in Latin and some foreign language. I could not see anything but I felt its presense, it was like cold air flushing over my head. The spirit tried to push itself into my body, I felt the pressure of its force. It was trying to force itself into me to no avail. I rebuked the demon in the name of Jesus Christ, and I have never heard from it since. It may sound odd or crazy, but I really experienced this. I never would have believed that something of that nature could be possiable before, until it happened to me. I consider myself as a person of a sound mind; I am not crazy or have schizophrenia. So I do not want to hear you reply with maybe your crazy. The fact that this is my experience alone makes me believe in the supernatural. I questioned demon possession too, I felt like it was just made up for movies. Just a form Sci-Fi to entertain us, but now I know that there are demonic forces in this world.

 

 

Are you aware that just about anyone can write a book on just about anything? Do you think that everything that is in a book is automatically true? This is what thinking by yourself means, reading something ans questionning wether or not it's true. This argument isn't solid.

Quote:

 

Yes, anyone can just write anything. Some people do just write anything you have to judge what you think is real and what is not real. The fact that I have been approached by an evil force, makes me see how this book about an exorcism may be true.

 

But why can't it be probabilities, albeit small one? I do agree this is a lot of coincidences though. But you know how sometimes you become so sure of something that it alters your perception, that you pay more attention to details, to what you want to see. That part about the sky and the light is a proof of that I believe. You saw and interpreted what you wanted to see.

 

When too many coninidences happen at one time, I would think that there is a reason behind this occurrence. That is my belief. I know that these people were guided by God. The "details" of the experience were not something, that I would think would happen to too many people.

 

 

 

 

OH wild manner is it? Define this with words please.

 

I do not know you tell me? You said that Christians could not do what they wanted to do, what do you mean by that? By wild I just mean having no direction or discipline in ones life. I am not saying you live this way. I am talking about people who are so out of control that they are harming themselfs.

 

 

 

If I scientifically proved to you that we are a form of evolved animals, would you finally admit it or would you still refute it? 

 

I never said that animals have not evovled. I just do not believe that humans are animals. I do not believe that we come from moneys. when I was college I did research on human/animal testing and many things about the makeup of moneys and humans are not the same. The theory of Evolution still has not been proven to this day.

 

.

Albert Einstein was a genious in physics (correct me if I'm wrong). He discovered something new that made the science of physics evolve. I am searching the world of spirituality, the world of organised religion to find an evoluation in my own spirituality.

 

How can you say that you are searching for something when you do not take the time to fully research it? I understand you do not believe in religion but how can you obtain an understanding of something that you choose not to do the proper research.

 

Just because someone is a genious in one field of life does not make him a free thinker. Take the Nazis for example, for them to have succeeded (I don't like the word either) they had to have some extremely intelligent people in their ranks. And yet they did not think by themselves, they thought as a collectivity. Do you understand now what I mean by thinking by one self ( not to be confused by intelligence).

 

You are still SOOO wrong the fact that I practice something thats teachings do not cause ME to physically harm another human being, is much different from a person who chooses to kill millions of people. You are mistaken. Comparing God to a human dictator is not the same.The foundations of Christianity are Good. A man is prone to sin, a man is prone to a conflict of thoughts and opinions. God is never changing and all knowing. You still do not understand that people of religion do think for themselves. Your misconception is that if a person does not agree with what you think, then they are not thinking, but that shows that you have faulty areas in thought too when it comes to that issue.

 

 

You know what bothers me about redemption? It's too easy. People used to buy redemption at some point !! Or simply go to church, confess something, say a prayer and be automatically cleansed. Do you honestly agree with that? Maybe, as Ars said, this is just another wrong conduits of something that is fundamentaly good though. You tell me.

 

Yes I do. God knows the true character of each person. If you think God is so bad for wanting his children to be the best that they can by not sinning. Then why now are you mad at God, who loves us so much that he is willing to forgive any wrong doing that we commit if we are willing to change our lives for the better? Does that not show to you how accepting and loving God is, that he loves us so much that, he will take us into his kindom if we are willing to admit to him that we made mistakes, and we want to be forgiven to become better people. If you have an argument with a friend do you not want them to apologize to you. It is in human nature that our PRIDE may prevent us from apologizing or accepting the apology in some cases. Some people are stubborn and my be enemies for life.

Quote:

 

There should be prison, this is the current solution to some aspect of our criminalitym the human solution to it. There is a right and a wrong, which differs from each person but must sometimes be treated as a collectivity in order to assure functional societies.

 

The same thing holds true for heaven? Have you not heard of Lucifer/(Satan) the archangel of light? Lucifer was kicked out of heaven because he like you , did not want to serve God. He said he would rather reign in hell than to serve God in heaven. The angels who followed Lucifer's theory were sent to Hell "prision", a place God created for those who disobey. Satan and his demons rome the earth causing human to commit evil acts. Did you know that MOST of the people who are in prision are unsaved? The fact that these people had no direction in their life caused them to live a life of wickedness.

 

Why would God have something so simply human as Kingdom, so simply human as one way for someone who is good and the other who is evil? Even we human know that a person is not as simple as either one of two entity, good or evil, why would god be even more simplistic than we are? Why should the realm of what is beyond us, be undestandable by us, by our our own human concepts? How can something so... huge.. so.. beyond the beyond that would be the concept of afterlife be understandable by our intelligence? Why would god think on the same terms than we do? Does he have a human brain? Answer these questions and I will join my nearby church.

 

Would you want someone who steals, murders, rapes, lies, and abuses you live in your home? Would you want someone in your house who you KNOW for a fact WILL NEVER change their destructive behavior. I know that you a well roundend person with good judgement, would not allow such a person to live in your house. This is how God feels too about his perfect kingdom. When the final day of judgement comes, He will know that true character of all , and will send people where they need to go. We will have to give an account of our actions in life to God, and why we should be let in to heaven. If God can send angels to hell, I am sure he has no problems with sending humans too. God also knows that we are not that simple, that is why we have the choice to ask for forgiveness and become saved. If he judged us without the option of repentance then we would all go to hell!

 

 

In marketing the bottom line is finding your target market. To do this you have to appeal to your segment group. God wants all people to go to heaven, so he must appeal to all! If he made his religion so complicated to understand, then people would not want to follow it. Have you ever come accross an older person who is afraid to use technology? The reason they do not want to learn is because they find the task to intimidating. They think that the task will be to hard to understand, so they avoid it. Why would God want to try to teach a religion that only "smart" people can understand, if his goal is to apeal to all intelligence levels? Your theory sounds as if you are saying that only intelligent people should go to heaven or understand religion, but those with good hearts and souls with lesser intelligence should not go or understand religion. God wants everyone to become saved so he makes thing easy for people to understand. A 2nd grade teacher cannot teach her class Trigonometry, if all the students are not at that level yet. God is the same way, we are so below his level that he has to come down to our level to make us understand. God is not human he is made of spirit. The bible says that we were made in his image, from the dust of the earth.

 

 

 

I

don't see how I've answered my question!? Yeah! Well that is your theory. Those who wrote the bible were men weren't they? Have you thought that maybe, just maybe they wrote the bible so that it you can see beyond the words and make your own interpretation. Isn't that the reason spoke in allegories all the time?

 

Again you are wrong to think that those who read the Bible do not makes their own conclusions about what the text says. You are just making assumptions and generalizations.

 

 

So Satan is trying to make me believe something, does this mean I'm possessed? Please explain, I'm as good an interpreter of the surnatural as you are.

Quote:

 

No, if you were possessed, a demonic spirit would have entered your body to take control over you. The nature of man is to sin( Genesis), once Satan tempted Adam and Eve. Satan temps us all to do what we know is not right, that does not mean you have been possessed just presented with temptation of some type.

 

 

But I do more for my community than most people that go to church! I volunteer quite a lot and help my loved ones so much. How can you say that I am on Satan's path? While you are in church I'm probably xoing therapy with alcoholics!

 

That is good! I am glade that you do so so much for your community. The fact that one is not saved , makes them on the path to Satan. It does not mean that they are bad or evil, it just means that if you never become saved and serve God, the end of the road leads to Satan.

 

 

Demonic spirits? Please explain. Quote:

 

Demons are fallen angels who live in hell. Demons rome the earth to cause chaos. Some possessed people commit murders and vile unthinkable acts. There have been many accounts of exorcisms. I visited a church one time where the preacher gave an account of an exorcism he performed on a woman. He said that the woman was in her home one day, when she was sitting in her living room, she heard foot steps in her home. She looked everywhere and could not find anything in her house. The foot step came closer and closer to her, and she said that she felt something enter her body. The pastor went on to tell that this woman called his church about a week later to speak to him. When he went to visit her, she told him that she felt as if she was possessed by a demon.

 

He asked he why did she feel this? She told him that since a week ago she has been acting in the most odd ways, she has been saying the most vulgar and vile statements uncommon to her personality. She also told him that she felt that she was capable of commiting cold blooded murder without caring at all. He opened his Bible and began to ask the Demons it's names to cast them out. He said several prayers and chants to the woman. The woman began to convulse, and she began to speak in a demonic low voice saying "I hate you" . The woman said she could feel the demon leaving her body. The pastor said that she did not Believe in demons before but after that she did. She gave her life the christ.

 

He also gave an account of a man who continued to harass the pastor every where he went in town, saying that Satan is more powerful than God. He also played the tape of the church service in 1971 when that same possessed man entered his church, and began shooting saying that Satan is more powerful than God, and I will prove this to you. The church members chanted out I rebuke you in the name of Jesus. The man did not kill the pastor like he wanted, and he was wrestled down to the ground. He was sent to jail released and hanged himself a week later. This Pastor is a trusted Man who has been in the ministry for over 30 years. I would not see any reason for him to lie about his accounts of demonic possession. I listened to this sermon 6 months after my encounter with the evil spirit not before, so you can not say that this sermon caused my encounter.

 

 

Reality is what can be felt or perceived,Quote:

 

As I told you before. I feel the spirit of God within me, so what I feel cannot prove anything to you. Just like I said. Your cannot prove some ones feelings or have the same experiences as someone.

 

You have NOT made me change my mind about Christianty in anyway. The things that you use to support your theories have an answer to negate its truth. To make the poor assumption that Chirstian do not not think for themselves is wrong. The point of proving something means that you have assessed all of your data, in all areas of the objective that you are trying to prove. The fact that you know SOME of what the Bible says but not ALL of what the Bibles says proves to me, that you cannot prove your theory of there not being a God .

 

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