Fair Expectations vs Unfair Expectations

[BellaDonna]

If women want to be taken seriously in the workplace they have to start to pull their weight outside -

 

I agree with that 110%.

 

What good is equal rights and rights "at work", if this is what you'd end up coming home to after the workday is over:

 

 

a man to have a wife who is obedient, barefoot and pregnant and whose primary job is to cater to him and his children

 

and this is how you act when you go out:

 

a woman earning the same or more than her partner to expect him to subsidise her.

 

 

That is not true social progress, IMO.

 

BellaDonna

[Batya33]

I don't see anything wrong in one person in a romantic relationship accepting offers to pay from another person no matter what the other person makes or has. To insist on paying one's own way in the face of a sincere offer to treat can be offensive to the other person and patronizing - who am I to say to the other person that he doesn't have the capacity to decide how to spend his money? In my case, my boyfriend takes great pleasure in treating me to dinner and events, refuses my offers to pay and lets me pay about 30% of the time (and I also sneak in treating by buying tickets on my credit card in advance, things like that).

 

I rarely ask him to carry packages - I do just as he would if I cannot handle it on my own. Rather, being the gentleman and lovely person he is, he offers to help and I accept his offer. If he did not offer instead watching me struggle with heavy packages I would find that rude. I offer to help others and him with packages - it's called common courtesy.

 

If I thought he was so gullible as to let himself be taken advantage of by me or by anyone else, I would not be with him - that sounds fairly spineless and naive to me. I do know women who take advantage of men for free meals and other "treats" - I know I am not one of them and more importantly, he knows I am not one of them. He loves that I am a financially independent woman with a successful career and shows this in so many ways. That he also likes to have the gentlemanly/traditional male role when it comes to matters of the heart is perfectly consistent with that.

 

He would be offended - this I know - were I to insist on paying my own way each and every time and splitting the bill. When he won't let me do that, he is very firm on that point and to challenge him would make him question why I am not willing to accept his generosity. Same as I would be offended if he tried to pay his "share" of what I pay my laundry and drycleaning service for his clothes, or for the food I buy or take out to prepare meals, or that I keep his favorite sodas and treats stocked in my refrigerator. These are some of the things I enjoy giving to him in our relationship. He has tried to pay me back when I get tickets for us to the movies. I don't let him and he accepts that offer.

 

I expect - and get - equal treatment in the workplace - that has to do the work I do and the agreed upon compensation for the work I do. If I dated someone who kept an account of who paid what or wanted to split everything evenly to the penny I would find that cold and impersonal. I am not like that with most of my friends, either. We take turns treating and I am sure in some cases I pay more often and in others they pay more often. I don't care - it's a friendship and that's part of being friends and being giving and generous.

 

If I get married, I am all for things being fair. One problem is how to quantify child care and how much that is "worth." I am fortunate that since I have saved $ for many years because I would like to be able to stay home with a child and still contribute my fair share to the family income, my staying home for awhile likely will not impact the family income. I do not expect a man to shoulder 100% of the financial burden particularly at my age.

 

I know we will continue to disagree. Honestly, I have to wonder where your strident tones come from when you present your views on women and how we have to be ready to accept "equality" (whatever that means to you - still unclear) in a relationship if we want equality in the workplace. It seems to come from a begrudging or resentful place and that is sad.

[BellaDonna]

I would never think it was "ok" to pay women less or treat them unequally based on how they choose live their lives outside of work.

 

I expect - and get - equal treatment in the workplace - that has to do the work I do and the agreed upon compensation for the work I do

 

Exactly.

 

However I do believe that for true social progress, I have to be an adovocate in all areas of my life. That means at home, or out, I expect the same equal treatment as I would in the workplace. For me, part of that equal treatment means taking out my wallet and paying half of the time, and taking out the garbage too.

 

BellaDonna

[Batya33]

I would never think it was "ok" to pay women less or treat them unequally based on how they choose live their lives outside of work.

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

However I do believe that for true social progress, I have to be an adovocate in all areas of my life. That means at home, or out, I expect the same equal treatment as I would in the workplace. For me, part of that equal treatment means taking out my wallet and paying half of the time, and taking out the garbage too.

 

BellaDonna

 

 

Yes and that is where we disagree. I don't think equal pay for equal work can be compared to how men and women choose to relate in their personal/private relationships. If a man chooses to reject my offer to contribute half to our dating activities my alternatives are to accept his offer, reject his offer and write a check if he won't take the $ (I have tried this - the check never got deposited), or refuse to do the activity unless he accepts my offer to pay which seems in most cases like a lose-lose. Or I can only date men who will accept my offer to pay my own way all the time no matter what. I have yet to meet a man like that in 25 years of dating.

 

In short I don't think that form of "equality" - splitting everything neatly down the middle - makes for a healthy relationship where it is done in the name of "well since you want that in the workplace you'd better pay half of every meal we share and let's keep a running tab of who spent what." For example, how does that work where the woman or man orders a more expensive dish? Who gets to take the doggy bag home? What if she buys icecream but he eats more than half? (this is a paraphrase of a scene in the movie the Joy Luck Club). At work it is cut and dry. You're not supposed to be doing social activities or personal activities together as part of your job, and when you are social, typically the firm will pay for it, or a client - anything else is personal time not work time.

[BellaDonna]

I don't think that's healthy, and it's certainly not the way things are done in my relationship. When my husband and I were dating, we were both kids with tight budgets. It was important for me not to let him pay all the time just because he was male. If he offered, I would not argue with him to take my money- but I would be the one to offer to pay the next time, and I would not let him give me his money either. It just seemed like the "right" thing to do. I wouldn't feel like I had a spine if it was any other way. No one keeps tabs.

 

I guess what I was trying to say before was, if I'm a strong well-paid woman at work, then I also want to be a strong woman at home. I'm not too good to do dirty work at home or pay for my guy. I'll take out the garbage, lift heavy items, etc. I'll hold the door for him. I would feel like a walking hypocrasy if I was one way at work and another way at home.

 

My sister is the opposite of me with her BF- she uses the "woman card" to her advantage, always letting her BF pay, being too girly to carry a box when she moved into her apartment and watching him do it. That kind of existence would NEVER work for me.

 

Ultimately everyone must do what feel right to them in their own relationship.

 

BellaDonna

[ImThatGirl]

I just don't get it. If women want to be treated equally in the workplace, they should be treated equally in personal life.

 

Some things can still be traditional. My guy is fairly traditional. I have offered to pay for dinners several times and he's only allowed me to once or twice. When we go shopping, I always attempt to pay and he lets me get away with it now and then. He sometimes picks stuff up from the store that he knows I need (without me asking,) and won't allow me to pay him back.

 

On the otherhand, if trash needs to be taken out, I just take it out. I don't leave it sitting until he does it.

 

One thing I've noticed is that if women want to "be" in the workplace and be treated equally, men aren't understanding about accepting or sharing the other responsibilities in the household and caring for the children.

 

In today's world, it's not really an option of whether or not the wife can return to work. It's expected. That leaves less time for the mothers to do "everything" else expected. How exactly is that equal or fair?

[Batya33]

The issue is that according to some, if you let your boyfriend pick up the tab you are taking advantage of him in some way. That is what I do not agree with.

 

In my field, the child care issue is one women and men face. For example, if a woman with no children has a social plan - maybe family related, maybe not, and a woman with children wants to go watch her son's soccer game and one person needs to work late, who gets priority? Particularly for single women, their dating needs - i.e. trying to find a husband -- might be seen as less important than a woman with children wanting to go to that soccer game, ballet recital, or other child-centered events. I am specifically excluding child-related emergencies because I think we all have to be flexible about family emergencies which all people face. Now, if the woman with children has chosen a flex or part time schedule then she is entitled to leave early to attend to her children because she has agreed to the lower salary in exchange for that time. It is when two full time people are involved - whether male or female.

 

It also depends on whether you see the decision to have children as one that should be supported by employers and if so, how much. To me, it is a choice whether to have children and in many respects a privilege and a blessing so there are times when I would prefer not to be burdened with extra work simply to allow a mother to go to that soccer game. There are times when it is fine with me. It's complicated!

[ImThatGirl]

RRRrrrrrr....... Just a quick check.

 

My bf and I have been getting along after a much needed talk a week or so ago. I've not been worrying and he's been doing great - back at being attentive, sending emails, text messages, calling me.

 

So - yesterday I receive an email stating he's going by the store, let him know if I need anything and that he'll call me after bowling.

 

No call after bowling.

No text this morning.

No email this morning. (He read the one I sent to him.)

 

I know this may seem a little demanding. But - If he contacts me often on a normal basis, unless something is wrong, do I have a right to be a little upset that I haven't heard from him?

[Batya33]

Yes, I think you do unless there is a reasonable excuse. I'm not good in general with unreliable people, boyfriend, friend, colleague, otherwise.

[Skippy]

expectations changes as the relationship moves on.

The differences in expectation in a new relationship and a married relaionship is totally different and it is different from person to person and couple to couple..

I expect my girlfriend and i to see/talk to each other eveyday when she or i are on a business trip. It is my requirement, it keeps us communicating and also allows us to share but from her perspective, it can be draining.

 

So it is something to be negociated about, neither is right or wrong.

There is no simple answer