Pressures of being a man

[al7]

1. Linguistics club. Environmental club. Art club. People there are very bored (as a result - boring) most have no idea what to do.

 

2. I have been told it is not a good idea to randomw approch girls. So I thought there are some places where girls... well expect guys or at least ok with guys who approach them

 

3. I know once you start doing somthing you will gain confidence. The thing is cannot start: dont know what to say...and as annie noted

in the beginning I'll have far more rejections that are not conducive to gaingin confidence. Got stuck here.

[al7]

I have never drunk properly in a bar I found you gotta be real good at body language since I cannot hear anyone, even myself. So since

I dont have any experience in this realm AND some people say it is even not worth it (they say it is unlikely to meet somebody good in a bar.. even if they are good they are in "other mode")

I guess I dont even need to try that one.

 

I shouldn't worry about bars. Not sure what it's like by you, but around here you'll get to meet people who are very drunk, wear far too much make up, and can barely hold a decent conversation when sober let alone after a few drinks. If you want a one night stand, go for it, but for anything even remotely serious it's not that good an option. In my experience.

 

I guess you are right. Note that bars\clubs are basically teh only place where women would expect men to approach them.

Annie said it is not a good idea to just randomly approch girls everywhere... far more rejections than experience or confidence gained.

What's your take on that? Is tehre any places besides bars where you think women feel more comfortable?

[Iceman26]

1) Not at all. I had a lot of friends, which meant a lot of inexpensive social events (such as parties), which is where I would meet a lot of people. I also worked in places that had a lot of people in my age range at the time. It was no secret that I didnt have a lot of money, but I didnt let that bother me, and to the best of my knowledge, never bothered anybody I dated at the time. I was more focused on what I HAD to offer, and that came accross to the people in my life. I was (and still am) fun to be around and a great conversationalist, a good listener, and a good and loyal friend.

 

2) Simple. If they dont understand, move on to the next one. Rome wasnt built in a day, and neither are we. Are you of the opinion that every girl isn't going to be understanding about getting a PhD?

 

A person getting a PhD doesnt intend to just sit on the degree and do nothing, they are going to make some serious cash. And, as I said earlier, an INTELLIGENT woman will understand that, which is I am sure the type of girl Corvidae would like to date.

 

3) I can tell by his picture hes not an obvious dweeb, and that is definetly a start.

 

I dont know if you live in a biker town Al, but go out to a local mall and see the women walking around with their boyfriends/husbands, and maybe you will notice that dating a tough guy is not the highest priority on a womans list. I dont know many women that like rugged or tough looking guys in particular, from what I know women like a guy that can carry themselves well and protect them from danger, a quiet confidence if you will.

 

For him being of age (26) I suggested the bar scene on Friday as a place to get started, not necessarily where I would (if I were single) go, but as a means for him to practice his social graces, have conversations with women, and get a feel for what kind of woman he would like to date, if he doesnt know already.

[al7]

1. There are a great many women who appreciate a man working towards accomplishing something in their life---even though they've yet to reach their ultimate goal. It seems to me you have a great deal to feel confident about.

 

 

2. Also, women today are much more independent then years past and you shouldnt fall under the impression that a woman is looking to find a man to take care of her. It's enough that you have goals and ambitions and are building a life you can be proud of.

 

 

1. Yes they are.. but it is not somehting that have positive "weight" now.

Who wants to date a guy in his late 20s who is still studying?

I am not sure it is a turn off, it is good, but it actually shows he is not ready for a family, so many many people would think "Why to bother?"

 

2. I guess now when women are more independent what happened is women not only want to be independent financialy themselfs but also want a guy who a) Reached the same or better level of finacial security b) Will accept a woman who works a lot and earn a lot.

In my opinion it doesnt bring more happiness to men, and women themself find more trouble finding a guy who satisfy a) and b). It just adds more frustration for both sexes.

[al7]

It is good you admit what you lack. It is always a good first step: to figure out what you need. I'll give you aqucik analysis: you spent two huge paragraphs describing how bad you feel and why you cannot feel any better (which might be fine...)but.. you didnt even mentined anything that you think you can do, improve or develop.

I am pretty sure there is time fo rthe next step: focusing on solutions.

So far you tend to focus on why you can't have\do what you want to do.

It seems counterproductive. Start thinking in terms of solutions, since you are doing PhD you got brains to take that challenge for sure.

[Caldus]

corvidae, I think that by having a PhD, you already stand out from the rest of the guys. It's not noticed right away but when you tell women that they will think you stand out from the rest of the guys. I think you got a good advantage already. Also, numerous people on here (including some women) have told you that you look decent. I agree with them. Best of all you sound like a very smart and mature guy. I really don't think you'll have much trouble finding the right woman for you in the long run. You probably just need to work on your smile a little more and show these women who you really are. Don't try to act fake in any way. They will detect that in a heartbeat. I agree with al7, focus on the solution, not the problem.

[al7]

1. Got you: parties...I wish I have that opportunity. Parties means having friend who would invite you, right. I dont even know many people who would party. Hm.

 

2. Some women find PhD intimidating, and they prefer a tough guys instead. Some have their own PhD and a job, they want a full package already... some who are young enough to appreciate future PhD, seem do not care about relationships yet.

Sure there are SOME women who do not fall into those categories. But they are quite a few: again, a women in her late 20 alreayd has a job. Sure she expects a guy have a job too and not goofin around being a student. Anyway, it is not like it is the most important thing but it narrows a number your dates tremendosuly... I, myself, in that kinda position.

 

3. Well, you are right about malls. But you simply look from other side...

You look at some other people. I am sure most of those guys a) have Waayy more experience with women b) have a job (maybe not a super job, but they are stable and ready for havinf kids.

I guess it does make a difference.

Even experience only would work! FOr example I have no idea where I can go to parties...so what's left for me is online dating.

 

Some people here do not advice bars at all.. by the way. Partie sosunds much better.

[MetalJoe]

Annie said it is not a good idea to just randomly approch girls everywhere... far more rejections than experience or confidence gained.

What's your take on that? Is tehre any places besides bars where you think women feel more comfortable?

 

I must admit, it's not something I've really thought about, I just take situations as they come. I meet girls at my local snow slope or mountain biking, or at friends' parties, or queued up waiting to pay in a shop, or in cafes, or browsing in a book store, or in an art gallery, or I have friends introduce me to someone - all kinds of places really.

[annie24]

Who wants to date a guy in his late 20s who is still studying?

I am not sure it is a turn off, it is good, but it actually shows he is not ready for a family, so many many people would think "Why to bother?"

 

Ok - so this is interesting. I've read some about this topic. So, I am in grad school, and I am most interested in meeting a guy who is also in graduate school. We are going through the same phase of life. I think this is the way many women feel.

 

However.... I've heard about a lot of men that feel the way Al feels... "Why would a woman want me if I am not "established" yet." Well - women see potential in a man. I've flipped through a book called, "Why man marry" or something like that. It bascially says that a man is ready to get married a few years after finishing his education (hs, college, advanced degree or whatever). He will graduate, buy a new car, start his career, perhaps buy an apartment... Then, he feels he is ready. It quoted several men as saying they thought that the women who dated them while they were broke and "not established" were losers because these women were "settling" for less. However, I don't think the women saw it as "settling" for less - they were with a man who has a plan and will become established in a few years.

 

I don't know.... that book scares me. But, I guess it explains the 50% divorce rate in the US - if people get married within a 3 year time period after graduating - if they just marry the first person who fulfills the criteria during that time....

[Iceman26]

 

Some people here do not advice bars at all.. by the way. Partie sosunds much better.

 

Yes, most people here wouldn't advise bars, but most people here advise online dating, which I dont endorse.

 

My sister met her husband at a bar/club, and the both are of good morals, standards, etc, and have a wonderful marriage. Now I am not saying that a club or a bar is the best place to meet the person of your dreams, but it can happen........but meeting someone online is an option for some.

[annie24]

another option.... this is also a somewhat new thing. "Social Introduction" agency. I saw a special on this on MSNBC. There's Eight at Eight for example. For a fee, the agency will arrange for dinner for 4 men and 4 women at a local restaurant. They are arranged by similar age and at the end of the night, everyone exchanges their business cards. It sounds interesting.

[Iceman26]

I dont know, the fact that you would have to pay to meet people is what would make me cringe, but I guess it works for some.

[annie24]

I don't know what it's success rate is. It sounds interesting though. Some people pay thousands and thousands of dollars for professional matchmakers, but I don't think that that has any better success rate than link removed.

 

But, I don't really cringe at that thought. I mean, yeah, you can pay $20 a month to try to meet new people online. Or, you can go to a bar and throw down $20 for drinks, or pay the admission fee to a mueseum... If you go to a private party, you're usually expected to bring a bottle of wine, so that's $20 right there (if you are bringing the host anything decent - which hopefully you are!)

[Shidoshi]

Corvidae,

 

I thought it was a joke but I was just a little confused by it, lol.

It's like I don't consider myself in the same category as men. It's hard to explain... It's not like I don't have confidence, it's not that I'm shy, it's just I often feel like an alien that landed on Earth.

Interesting....none the less, you seem like an intelligent guy and what your doing is over-analyzing peoples' perceptions of you, and you continue to behave accordingly. You see, these aren't the words of a confident man, you have already defeated yourself by saying things like:

"Perhaps it's more like I don't think women consider me as a regular man." and "It's like I don't consider myself in the same category as men."

 

I have a friend who considers himself to be a genius (although I highly doubt it, but thats another story), and he likes to "analyze" the hell out of EVERYTHING. He is socially awkard at times and I can see how he tries to justify things to make himself feel better, but this doesn't help him at all. He has gotten better, but only after he started behaving in a more "human" way, and not all judgemental about people. I'm not saying you're just like him, but I can see some similarities.

While I was able to be friends with women, they never treated me like I was potential relationship material. Was this my fault? Was it something I said or did?

Yes, but I wouldn't say its a fault, more like an outcome. If you feel you aren't considered a normal guy it will come accross through your body language(most times you won't even be aware its happening). It can be very subtle, but people WILL pick up on it. For the most part, people will treat you the way you perceive yourself.

So what about now? Well, I probably am still my own worst enemy, but in total fairness to me, in all my life so far, no woman has ever made any, not even the slightest, effort with me, and I do resent that.

Its definitely tough, but you have to let go of the past and concentrate on what you want now. It will ONLY get better when you let go of ALL the excuses you have for a lack of success with women. I'm just being real with you, not trying to offend.

 

I'm telling you man...there are some real losers out there with women and it boggles the mind sometimes. It is WAY easier than you think.

[JonnyG]

Im not sure how much this applies to this thread, but 1 thing that worries me these days is how powerful women are getting. I don't have a problem with women being in high up jobs, being physically tough etc, good for them. I think many men will agree its good to see society being less sexist. But I worry how woman will start to feel about the men in this world soon. The fact is that our society believes that the male should be the provider/protector of the family but in todays world, woman are doing better in education and are rapidly catching up in terms of their positions in jobs and their salaries.

 

I just read it in the paper today about how many successful women struggle to find a partner. Men are literally scared of them according to research because they feel inadequate. And these women feel they deserve more, at least someone equal to them in terms of success in life. I personally would be over the moon if my gf (don't have 1 at the mo) got a great job that paid more than mine, it'll be great for her and me if more money was coming in. But how would she feel when she starts bringing home more money than me and started to provide for me instead of the other way round. Suddenly thousands and thousands of years of the norm is thrown out.

 

Anyone got an opinion?

 

hhhmmm, sometimes I really can't tell these days if I make interesting points or if im talking utter cr*p

[annie24]

Honestly, I don't care. It's a very real possibility that I will outearn my husband one day (I don't even have a bf right now - just saying). It's not a big deal to me, just so long as he IS bringing home some sort of paycheck and is contributing (ie, helping the kids with the homework, helping out around the yard...) I can't speak for all women, but it seems like men have a bigger problems with this than women do.

[al7]

Annie said it is not a good idea to just randomly approch girls everywhere... far more rejections than experience or confidence gained.

What's your take on that? Is tehre any places besides bars where you think women feel more comfortable?

 

I must admit, it's not something I've really thought about, I just take situations as they come. I meet girls at my local snow slope or mountain biking, or at friends' parties, or queued up waiting to pay in a shop, or in cafes, or browsing in a book store, or in an art gallery, or I have friends introduce me to someone - all kinds of places really.

 

I see. If you have lots of possibilities you dont really have to think in terms of "where".

My situation is completely opposite: I am in country side area, no one walks here. All people I know are kind of old busy\married people. No parties - just work work work.. I work alone in the lab. So basically if I don't do any effort I might not see people in weeks. And I cannot invite myself to a party Does it look like an adult life? Thats a piece of...

I receall when I was younger I have enough friends, especially in first years of college.

[annie24]

How about the people that you do know? You can ask them to fix you up with a single girl. How many more years until you graduate? I suggest moving to a more populated, young place then...

[al7]

Who wants to date a guy in his late 20s who is still studying?

I am not sure it is a turn off, it is good, but it actually shows he is not ready for a family, so many many people would think "Why to bother?"

 

1. .I've read some about this topic. So, I am in grad school, and I am most interested in meeting a guy who is also in graduate school. We are going through the same phase of life. I think this is the way many women feel.

 

2. However.... I've heard about a lot of men that feel the way Al feels... "Why would a woman want me if I am not "established" yet." Well - women see potential in a man. I've flipped through a book called, "Why man marry" or something like that. It bascially says that a man is ready to get married a few years after finishing his education (hs, college, advanced degree or whatever). He will graduate, buy a new car, start his career, perhaps buy an apartment... Then, he feels he is ready.

It quoted several men as saying they thought that the women who dated them while they were broke and "not established" were losers because these women were "settling" for less. However, I don't think the women saw it as "settling" for less - they were with a man who has a plan and will become established in a few years.

 

3. I don't know.... that book scares me. But, I guess it explains the 50% divorce rate in the US - if people get married within a 3 year time period after graduating - if they just marry the first person who fulfills the criteria during that time....

 

1. I thought about this topic too. Apparently much more than I have to

For example: I would not be eager to date somebody in a grad school.

Why not? I like smart women. I dont like women who earn a lot, but it is not the case here yet. I just dont see any kind of a relationship out of two grad students date each other. Once they are done studying... they apply for a job. He gets in in CA, she gets in NY. End of story?

 

2. Yeah after he's done with buyiing stuff he simply'll get bored and need sombody to have fun with Seriously. I think the problem lies not so much in his "establishability" but in a) his age as some sort of measure of a desire for a relationship b) his desire to be in a relationship c) work situation: if he in school, most like he'll have to move to another state to get a job. If she is in school too, she'll move too. This is not conducive to any serious relationship.

 

3. I have read a book about divore rate in the US. You'll be surprise what they came up with as a reason for the high rate. Martial laws. In different states they are different and correlate with divorece rate directly.

My personal opinion it is not so much about laws. It is about that idea that if you got a job in other state, you'll move immediately. Business you know. Being busy is popular.

And it is about women desire to be independent and educated combined with employment sutuation: if she's got a job she was looking for in another state... and she wants to be independent.. what she'll do?

Stay in relationship and forgets about her "dream" job? No way. She'll move. And he'll move. Most people would trade their good relationship for their boring jobs, just cuz they can make more and have more prestige.

 

I guess this is a big reason of high divorce that that people are not used to think of.

[al7]

another option.... this is also a somewhat new thing. "Social Introduction" agency. I saw a special on this on MSNBC. There's Eight at Eight for example. For a fee, the agency will arrange for dinner for 4 men and 4 women at a local restaurant. They are arranged by similar age and at the end of the night, everyone exchanges their business cards. It sounds interesting.

 

MOre progressive thing is called fast dating.

For $20 you meet about 12-20 single dateale people for 5 min each.

They marks those who they like to meet in tehir own lists. Then organizers compare all lists and anounce matches: they are supposed to go on a date after that.. I guess.

 

If I were not that shy and speak good, I would have been trying that for years already

[al7]

I dont know, the fact that you would have to pay to meet people is what would make me cringe, but I guess it works for some.

 

You gotta come to my area. If you don't know anyone (and you dont) sooner or later you'll pay way more than $20 just to see anyone alive

 

I fyou have a networks of friends and dates and you are a social person yourself.. well...sure you dont see why you have to pay for somehting so naturally accessible.

[annie24]

Well Al... I have to disagree with you again. You know that I'm in grad school, and soooo many of my classmates (a few years older) are getting married to each other! It's almost gross... Yeah, they date for a few years, they fall in love, get married. Very simple. When it comes time for their jobs... they apply for jobs in the same cities, and then go wherever they both find offers!

 

My co-worker will be moving to Canada next year. She got married a few years ago while they were both in grad school. He got this AMAZING job offer in Canada. She has an offer there too, but not as good a job as what she has right now.... but, overall, they decided it was the best decision.

 

I think the example you are talking about is when people date, and it's time to graduate, if they weren't really crazy about each other, they'll just call it quits, and move their separate ways. But if they are really in love, who would really choose a job over their soulmate?

 

3 of my co-workers all recently got engaged in the last month! One is in grad school, he is engaged to another grad student. The other is an undergrad - him and his fiancee have applied to med schools all over the country. The 3rd is an undergrad. Her fiance is a web-designer, so he has told her he'll follow her to wherever she moves for grad school.

 

So, I would have to disagree - lots of people find true love in school.

[al7]

JonnyG,

 

I agree. Look at a different, more developed example: for years african american were severely oppresed by whites. Then suddenly it all changed. Seems good, right? But then sombody realized they lag in education\jobs etc and decided to establish affirmative action kind thing...

and people start to hate each other even more.. of course it is all not politically correct to say (but I dont care).

 

Same thing with women who are getting more freedom. They were oppressed centuries before. Now grow up out of their traditional roles, make more money etc etc. Does it bring happiness to men? No.

To women? no again, cuz they have hard time ti find men they want!

So many many women just stay single, have their high paying job,

enjoy being independent and secretly cry "Why the heck I am so unlucky? Where are all teh good men gone"

[annie24]

As for the book you read on divorce rates and marital laws... I think it's total crap! I remember some religious groups being up in arms about some "Divorce Software." They thought it would increase divorce rates. Seriously... if you want to get a divorce from someone, you will. True, in some states it's easier, in some states, it's harder. But, if you don't want to be with someone anymore, you get a divorce, or you move out and don't talk ever again, but don't bother filing the paperwork. Same thing, right?

[al7]

1. Honestly, I don't care.

2. It's a very real possibility that I will outearn my husband one day

3. (I don't even have a bf right now - just saying).

4. It's not a big deal to me, just so long as he IS bringing home some sort of paycheck and is contributing (ie, helping the kids with the homework, helping out around the yard...) I can't speak for all women, but it seems like men have a bigger problems with this than women do.

 

1. I believe you right now. It is not going to happen tomorrow so really why would you care much about it? Right?

2. I am sure you will

3. Oh so you accept applications for?

4. It seems that we all are good people UNTIL we got into an argument.

The suddenly thing might change. And change fast.

It is very different where you are now and where you'l be in teh future.

Look, no you have you gf in similar social positions. They are young, and most do not have high paying jobs.

Once you got a job, you will not only have money, you'll be older, your gf will be older... all guys will be older. Naturally you might think a man should earn more as well as have large height. I bet we can't explain why the height... and neither we can explain why "more money".

Survival legacy from cave people. We just cannot beat it with our brains.

Instincts are more powerful.