Pressures of being a man

[al7]

1. Would you mind sharing how did you do that and being broke at the same time?

 

2. Man... you want women to undersatnd?? Dont you want too much?

It is like you went to a store, pay you money, but a sales person says Oh well... Mr. Iceman, you'll get your TV later.. When? Maybe in a couple of years. It is how women feel. You want them to understand and wait isntead of finding a guys who have evything right now?

 

3. How do you know... you have a microscope? What

I see on his pic is that he obsiously not rugged or tough looking guy. And that alone is a turn off for women.

Just curious: that how you did have women before: some drinks and then talk to women? I am not saying it is bad or anything: as soon as you can make it work and get women: that find. I just want to underatnd how you did that.

[al7]

With women's lib, and us having jobs and being financially independent, we're in a much different position than our grandmothers were. We don't have to find a man to support us. If we want children, we don't have to get married, we can just be single moms. I do agree with I love rain .... Mate selection for females is driven by many more factors than "who is big and strong and can take care of me." Now, quirky sense of humor and love of kung-fu movies can also be reasons for mate selection.

 

What I see is mate selection for women works in a build up direction:

every generation of women acquire more finacial power\opportunities, more freedoms...It might look good at the first look.

But really women become pickier and picker... is it good?

I dont think so. This concept might hurt women themselves: more freedom - more pickiness - more frustration due to being unable o find a man who meet ALL requirements... And a number of the requirements grows evety day...

Obviously men dont like this either: women become picker and pickier...

So yes, women can live, have kids by themselves.. who the amount of happiness in the world becaus eof it is decreasing.....

[al7]

I see on his pic is that he obsiously not rugged or tough looking guy. And that alone is a turn off for women.

.

Why are metro sexuals so popular then?

 

As far as I know metrosexuals are guy who care a lot about their apperance. They might be handsome and might be ugly.

We have no idea if he cares A LOT about his looks\clothes\etc.

Moreover I suspect he doesnt that much to qualify to be a metrosexual.

[al7]

The important thing is to be honest. When you date girls, don't put on a show. Just show who you are and what you are interested with. Respect the girl and be gentle, but don't be afraid to be who you really other. There is nothing as bad as two people who have entered into a relationship with a misunderstanding of thier partner. I mean, if you like bowling and the girl doesn't like it, atleast be honest. With out honestly, no relationship can survive. And let girls see you as you are now, not what you might become in the future.

 

Honest is not exactly the word to use in this context.

Should you be honest about you shortcomings? And state them right away? "Here I am.. poor, pessimistic student... take me or whatever..."?

You gotta put on a a new show, that will become you new _premanent_ life: positive outlook, focusing on advatanges instead of negative stuff,

joking instead of complaingin... etc etc.

Not a show, but far from being honest.

[al7]

1. i never said corvidae was a metro sexual, i was just talking about the statement.

 

2. i could be wrong. But You give the impression you think women are really shallow al7 by the way you talk?

 

1. I am sorry, I thought you meant corvidae.

Why women like metrosexuals? Hmm...I would guess because of their improved looks: better clothes, better grooming. Simple, right?

 

2. Shallow is not a word I would use, it just doesnt reflect the idea.

(Besides "shallow" is labeleed as bad word. I'll try to avoid it then)

 

Women are more wired with society. And society is a huge generator of stereotypes. So I can conclude women are practically speaking wired with steretypes. Some stereotype are good: being polite for example.

Some are not. Some are neutral.

But what amazes me is that how hard it is to understand women because of those stereotypes: women sometimes can't figure out why they are doing this or that themselves...and obviously men cannot do either.

[al7]

 

1. I dont really understand what you are saying about stereotypes

 

Personally I dont think men and women are that different when it comes to what we want from a partner. Ideally we both want the same thing, someone we click with, someone we can have fun with, someone who will love us the way we are, and someone that appreciates us.

 

1. Sorry I was not clear.

I mean: women act on sociey stereotypes. It is like a manual for every women to read and act on it. Men obviously read that manual too, but they are more independent and may think more freely...with more logic\common sense that do not involve stereotyping.

Maybe it would help?

 

2. Oh no way....Lets assume a woman found that guy with whom she clicks... she is 5'10'' and he is 5' 3''.. and opps he doesnt have a chance.

Or he is a truck driver and he is a PhD.. bye-bye love...

Men are not that picky: if she is taller, well, not many men would mind...

if she is smarter in term sof degree... again, not many men would mind..

Some do of course, but not the majority I guess.

 

So yes we all want somebody to click with.. but we have looong lists of what ELSE we want.....

[al7]

1. Stereotype is something that is not true (anymore).

We all know in women prefer taller men. Moreover ALL women PREFER taller men, since yu woman PREFER a man who is shorter than her.

Ask ANY woman about guys' heighet: ANY women would say: TALLER!

 

Now, it is a stereotype - women's stereotype that roots in that cave hunting period of time when a taller man was stronger so he was better equipped for survival. So I sure described a stereotype. But it is not my stereotype. It is a steretype women have.

 

Smarts: ask a PhD women what kinda guys she prefers, I am guessing most likely she'll say somehting like" It doesnt matter what kind of degree he has as long as he has something comparable to mine".

Why is that imporatnt for women - would they love to talk about their work at home with their men? I dont know...but it is again a stereotype.

 

2. All women I know. For some reason I think it is a big enough number for me to believe it is true.

 

3. I am not saying it is "fair". It is how it is in real life. And life is not fair at all.

 

4. Ha! I agree with you on that.. almost.

Men do want women who are attractive with big boobs. Yes they do.

But why they are bastards???

 

5. Big boobs are attractive, but not a somehting really crucial.

I would say men like big boobs.

Being attarctive, good lokking in general is crucial. So men just want attractive women. What kind of stereotype is that? do you want men to be attracted to unattractive women?

 

6. Well.. if I say women can think freely (as good as men can or better) genrally speaking do not act on it, would you feel better?

Look, be honest: society pressures women into wanting some kind of a man who is 1.... 2... 3... 100...1000... and this list doesnt have an end.

If you got a guy who is shorter you own gf would tell you right away.. you you will feel pressered immediately. So you would rather choose a tall guy, so you can show off a bit with him.

Society. Pressures.

 

Men are pressured too, but a bit less: if he has a good job "He is a MAN!" otherwise..so men bear with their jobs.. and trying to brag about it, even if they dont like it.

But when it comes to dating men doent care about what other think (i.e society) as much as women do. FOr some reason it is extremely important for a woman to show off to OTHERS their guy...Most women do that. And just a few guys would do the same.

This is just an example.

So please ask youself and you sisters: what is a prefereble hieght for a guy? what is a prefereble degree for guy?

Share those answers with us...do you mind?

[MetalJoe]

I think we're moving off the point. I really want to know if other men feel that same kind of social pressure that I was talking about.

 

Personally, I've not felt any kind of social pressure, but then again I don't try to conform, I'm not one for macho **** and I just try to be myself.

 

Cars don't interest me, except on a race track, so I drive an old tin box on wheels. I had a well-paid job about a year ago, which I used to enjoy but ended up hating (mainly because of certain managers) - so I jacked it in and became a snowboard instructor on minimum wage, and loved it. I did it for me alone, but I earned a *huge* amount of respect and admiration from people, friends and strangers, for doing it.

 

I'm back to finding a well-paid programming job again, but won't give up the instructing part-time. I need to pay the bills, eventually be able to afford to buy a house, and I enjoy programming anyway - which is the most important thing for me. Should Miss Right ever turn up and I get to start a family, the money will definitely be needed ;-)

[Alabama]

I've felt that kind of social pressure. I have no desire in searching for love, but so many people ask if I have a girlfriend and are surpised if I don't. I've also had offers of setting me on dates. So your not alone...I try to ignore it, but know it's not going away anytime soon...good luck!

[corvidae]

Er...God, so many posts....

 

1. We're not monkeys and neither are chimpanzees. We are both apes. Yes, that's right, humans are apes. No, we don't occupy a complete and novel sector of the animal kingdom, we are lumped together with gorillas and chimps, and that is based on comparison of DNA. I should know, I'm a geneticist. And no...I don't want to here from any creationists. CHIMPS ARE NOT MONKEYS.

 

2. No I'm not a 'metrosexual' thank you very much. I think I'm best described as a gentleman. Al7, you're right I don't look 'rugged' or 'tough' but be careful judging people. I've seen people much bigger than me in my gym who struggle doing half the weights I use, and I've trained in MMA for years. Just because someone is well-spoken and dresses well doesn't mean they're weak. Shaving your head and having tattoos doesn't do much for strength, fitness and striking power. How many brawlers do you see win the UFC? Even Tank Abbott never won one. People seem to forget that.

 

3. The subject of stereotyping genders has, predictably, come up in this thread. I never mean to suggest that women are all shallow or that I felt that I HAD to have material goods in order to be attractive, but simply that it's something that I feel has been programmed into me. I never even consciously thought about it until the speed-dating idea came up. When people bring up the idea that women don't go for short or poor men, they are generalising yes, but also what they say is, generally speaking, true. Women can reply by citing an example of one friend who goes out with a shorter guy, or when they once dated someone who was unemployed, but these tend to be the exceptions, not the rule. As a percentage, how many women do you know with shorter men? Is it statistically significant? i.e is there a clear pattern, even taking into account the exceptions? There are general unspoken rules in our society, and I feel that the need to feel socially successful is one men have placed upon them.

[annie24]

the best advice i ever got from an AP biology teacher was "marry a very smart man.. because if he isn't exactly successful then, he WILL be." oh so true. if you're doing PhD then you're obviously very intelligent, and that is possibly the most important thing to me in a guy. and i second that, that if that's you in your icon, what are you worried about?! you just need to believe in yourself, no matter how cheesy that sounds. you're intelligent and you obviously care about yourself. trust me, that's more than i could ask for from most guys! which is another problem all in itself.....

 

I'm surprised that the advice your biology teacher didn't give was to study hard and become successful yourself, so you don't have to worry about who you marry.

 

I cant agree: if you study hard, yes you'll make enough money not to care... but the thing is would that make you happier?

More independent - yes. More money? yes.

More choices? Definitely.

THough when it comes to mate selections you automutically raise the standards and find a good, decent man that would not only earn more than you, but also has a similar degree... well, you add some frustration here: by getting say PhD you exclude many many other men who do not have it. (I dont care I am work on PhD)

The smarted you are, the more you earn, the higher degree you have.... all that makes dating harder for women.

Not that they cant get dates, just teh opposite: but they have to be even more selective....

 

AL!!! I just can't believe that the best advice a teacher would give is to "marry a smart guy." Much better advice from a teacher is to become a smart, hardworking person yourself!

[annie24]

1. Would you mind sharing how did you do that and being broke at the same time?

 

2. Man... you want women to undersatnd?? Dont you want too much?

It is like you went to a store, pay you money, but a sales person says Oh well... Mr. Iceman, you'll get your TV later.. When? Maybe in a couple of years. It is how women feel. You want them to understand and wait isntead of finding a guys who have evything right now?

 

3. How do you know... you have a microscope? What

I see on his pic is that he obsiously not rugged or tough looking guy. And that alone is a turn off for women.

Just curious: that how you did have women before: some drinks and then talk to women? I am not saying it is bad or anything: as soon as you can make it work and get women: that find. I just want to underatnd how you did that.

 

1. If any man thinks he can't get a woman because of lack of money, he is SERIOUSLY fooling himself. How many times do I have to say it? It just not that important to every woman!!!! I know lots of guys who are in college and grad school. Student = broke. However, they are sweet, or they have charisma, or fun, or whatever. Let me assure you, on friday and saturday nights on college campuses throughout the world, there ARE men going out on dates!

 

2. I honestly don't believe that most women look at men the same way they look at a TV set they can't take home quite yet. But, if a woman meets a smart man, who seems in control of himself and "has a plan," yeah, lots of women date him because they know eventually, he'll rise to the top. For example, Bill and Hilary Clinton. Met while in school. She obviously saw something in him, while he was still a student, before he became a lawyer and politician and then leader.

 

3. I personally think Corvidae's photo is cute. If he asked me out, I'd date him!

[FuriousSam]

Survival of the fittest is the key here. We are programmed through millions of years to seek out the best and to have offsprings with him/her so our children will survive. Why do women seek someone that's good looking, successful, tall, smart, etc... The same goes for men who seeks the 0.7 (Or something like that) ratio.

 

On your very first post in the last paragraph you asked about how we can't shake our primal instinct even though we are more intelligent than chimpanzees. Have you heard of the theory about the Triune Brain? Primal drives has been with us for millions of years while society and even civilizations are a recent development compared to it. When you talked about how there's an unspoken rule in our society, it's more like this primal drive within all of us.

 

There was a thread a few days ago discussing about nature vs nurture and although I believe that nurture is more important than nature, we cannot shake off what was given to us at our births.

 

One note that I do have to point out is that in our society today, there seems to be more of a "confusion" in gender roles. Guys don't know how to be men and women becoming more manly if you will. And that is the conflict between society and our primal instincts. My guess as to the origin of this would be that of the media and how they "pussified" men and confusing the women as well. But there are others who thinks that the women's rights movement has something to do with it.

 

An example of this would be we see how men try to get girls in the movies or soaps (Wine them, dine them, buy them gifts, sing to them, etc...). Then when we do this, we get a completely different response from them and we are left to wonder what happened. Of course a lot of girls will tell you that they love those things if you ask them and that's because they have been poisoned by the media as well.

[al7]

1. Of course not ALL women are like that. Besides nothing is wrong with steraotypes, though sometimes they, stereotypes, might be really unusual and obscure...

 

Ok, see here is the trick: what I asked you to do is to ask your fellow gf\sisster abotu their preferences. I am 100% sure they will say

"a taller guy".

In real life you can find some rare case when a guy is shorter.

But all women prefer atller guys and the majority of women go out with taller guys. Some women of course are exception. But again I am sure: ask them - they prefer a taller guy.

 

2. I do not add antyhing to the existent women stereotypes. I simply stated the fact. Sure it sounds like a stereotype because it is a women stereotype. I am very surprised you dont believe me about the major fact: women do prefer taller guys.

It is obviously a steretypes, since it has no practical purpose... it came from the cave age survival era.

 

3. Yes, sure compatibility is very important. But it comes next after guy is tested for decent height, potential earning power, maybe style...

First impression is alway very superficial for all people: we look at the surface: is she cute? (that what's men do)..

women: is he handsome? has a style? earn enough? ...

only after that personality tests kick in.

 

4. Oh yes, some men are like that. In my opinion it is a small minority

of men. Definitely not most men.

Ok, to illustrate: i think about 20% of men would care that much what other woult htink about his gf to the point of rejecting her.

And about 80% of women what jreject a guy if he is not something they can show off to their gfs. Just a personal opinion. Not a fact.

[al7]

I think we're moving off the point. I really want to know if other men feel that same kind of social pressure that I was talking about.

 

1. Personally, I've not felt any kind of social pressure, but then again I don't try to conform, I'm not one for macho **** and I just try to be myself.

 

2. Cars don't interest me, except on a race track, so I drive an old tin box on wheels. I had a well-paid job about a year ago, which I used to enjoy but ended up hating (mainly because of certain managers) - so I jacked it in and became a snowboard instructor on minimum wage, and loved it. I did it for me alone, but I earned a *huge* amount of respect and admiration from people, friends and strangers, for doing it.

 

I'm back to finding a well-paid programming job again, but won't give up the instructing part-time. I need to pay the bills, eventually be able to afford to buy a house, and I enjoy programming anyway - which is the most important thing for me. Should Miss Right ever turn up and I get to start a family, the money will definitely be needed ;-)

 

1. We may feel the pressure in some dating situdation. Not just everywhere...

 

2. So if you got a date, how does she feel about you tin car? About you job which you enjoy but as you saing is not paying much? She is ok with that? You didnt feel ANY pressure?

[al7]

I've felt that kind of social pressure. I have no desire in searching for love, but so many people ask if I have a girlfriend and are surpised if I don't. I've also had offers of setting me on dates. So your not alone...I try to ignore it, but know it's not going away anytime soon...good luck!

 

Just curious: man, why dont you instead of indulging yourself in frustration about not gettng enough/any dates, just think in terms how, what you can improve to get some?

You said "I try to ignore it". Hmm??

IMagine: you r learning hwo to drive, ok. And suddnly you figured out Oh well I cannot do parallel parking good enough. What would be your reaction? "I try to ignore it" thing? I dont think so. I believe you will do the dam* parking until you do it well enough to past the driving test.

Now back to dating: you cannot get enough of good dates. and you simply slip in "I try to ignore it"? Why is that?

[annie24]

4. Oh yes, some men are like that. In my opinion it is a small minority

of men. Definitely not most men.

Ok, to illustrate: i think about 20% of men would care that much what other woult htink about his gf to the point of rejecting her.

And about 80% of women what jreject a guy if he is not something they can show off to their gfs. Just a personal opinion. Not a fact.

 

Al, you can't just go around tossing numbers like that without hard core data to back it up. 100% of women this, 80% of men that.... If you give something as your personal opinion, you can't really start trying to make it look like real data of a large number of people surveyed!

[al7]

2. Sorry that was a misunderstanding from my side.

 

3. I dont judge you at all: I just say what I see at every of your post.

You choose that particular pic, I am just saying what I see.

 

In my opinion nowdays power, strength etc has a little weight in being rugged. In fact it is enough just to look rugged/tough, you dont need to lift any weight to attract women. Moreover, I guess some (many?) women would happily accept your effort in different direction: rugged style, maybe even some cosmetics to look better, i.e more rugged.

 

4. I totally agree: we men feel lots of pressure from society. MOstly becasue society induces some gender stereotypes in us (mostly in women) and women pressure men with those stereotypes.

So men have not only their own stereotypes, but also they are getting

some more stereotypes from women...

We can feel that nowdays especaiily clear cuz the direction is up: women are getting more freedoms and they are allowed to openly state their prefernces in men and even add some more: there is no end to such a list...that keeps growing in any industrialized, developed society.

 

From the other side, men sure have their own preferences in women,

but that list is very small and it is not increasing at all.

[al7]

AL!!! I just can't believe that the best advice a teacher would give is to "marry a smart guy." Much better advice from a teacher is to become a smart, hardworking person yourself!

 

Hmm ok, maybe it makes more sense. I dont argue.

Just I see that the teacher did eveything according to gender stereotypes:

the advice was given to a girl: "Marry a smart guy" (it is new, before the teacher would say "wealthy" but it is not politically correct to say that out loud).

Job, career had not been a primary goal for women until recently. Marriage, famile - was. I think the teathcer is not very young and feministly oriented...

[al7]

1, 2. I think in the long run it is true. It is possible to find a woman who dont put that much strees on money, especially if people are relatively young.

Though there is a problem: majority women are not like that. They have their goals and their "wants" in a guy.

Besides a guy has his own preferences in women too: he may just not like any women he met who were ok with his financial staatus.

Moreover if you are older, thing chage sudennly in your later 20s when women assume you are lazy (crazy?) if you dont have a good job, since many women of that age do have a job (it doesnt have to be a high paying at all).

So yes, basically... if a guy knows hwo to deal with women, he doesnt need money. The problem is many academically smart guys have no idea how to communicate with women.

If I were a president...no, a minister of education, I would include many

required classes in college and in high school regarding gender communication.

 

3. It is very small (hard to say.. I cant believe you can see anything there without a microscope), but yes looks good: average or above average. Although it is not rugged at all: it is a turn off.

[al7]

An example of this would be we see how men try to get girls in the movies or soaps (Wine them, dine them, buy them gifts, sing to them, etc...). Then when we do this, we get a completely different response from them and we are left to wonder what happened. Of course a lot of girls will tell you that they love those things if you ask them and that's because they have been poisoned by the media as well.

 

You blame the media for that? They didnt originate it, they simply

offere what is popular for women as they are a majority of soap operas

consumers.

The media is like amirror: it reflects demands of society.

And nowdays women say more loudly what they wanna watch.

 

So.."pussification" of men happens not cuz of the "bad" media.

The media is just a carrier of info that many consumers wants.

I guess since women were oppressed before, some are very happy now with this "pussification" process as it draws power from men and directly gives it to women. Same analogies can be found with any oppressed minoroties: for examle african americam minority was very oppressed before 50s.

[al7]

4. Oh yes, some men are like that. In my opinion it is a small minority

of men. Definitely not most men.

Ok, to illustrate: i think about 20% of men would care that much what other woult htink about his gf to the point of rejecting her.

And about 80% of women what jreject a guy if he is not something they can show off to their gfs. Just a personal opinion. Not a fact.

 

Al, you can't just go around tossing numbers like that without hard core data to back it up. 100% of women this, 80% of men that.... If you give something as your personal opinion, you can't really start trying to make it look like real data of a large number of people surveyed!

 

Yes. I cannot. Thats why I stated "Personal opinion", never mentioned any surveys. Although I believe it is not hard to find some surveys that would clearly show some simple gender stereotypes: women prefer tall guys, with good earning power, and older than they are.

Men prefer... just cute girls

 

What's the point in stereotyping now? There is no point, a cute girl doesnt gurantee you a good relationship, a tall guy doesnt have any advantages at all... still we follow out cave like sterotypes and would point to anyone who doesnt follow them.

[annie24]

Well, as a PhD student, you should know that you can't say anything without pointing to a study to back it up. Whenever I say to my advisor, "Most of the protein is in this area," she just yells at me, "How much? 80% 70%, 65.4% ??? Annie, you can't just make up numbers!!!"

 

You're right - there is no point in stereotyping. True, I think in general, you can say that most women like tall men. However, if you are 5'5", there is nothing you can do about it. But, a woman who is in the minority might think that you are very handsome, and when it comes down to it, you are looking for just ONE woman, right? One is all you need. Not EVERY woman.

[al7]

 

1. Well, as a PhD student, you should know that you can't say anything without pointing to a study to back it up. Whenever I say to my advisor, "Most of the protein is in this area," she just yells at me, "How much? 80% 70%, 65.4% ??? Annie, you can't just make up numbers!!!"

 

2. You're right - there is no point in stereotyping. True, I think in general, you can say that most women like tall men. However, if you are 5'5", there is nothing you can do about it. But, a woman who is in the minority might think that you are very handsome, and when it comes down to it, you are looking for just ONE woman, right? One is all you need. Not EVERY woman.

 

1. Well if it is a report I have to submit, I cannot just "express my opinion". But here it is not even close to any report. I just expressed the propotion that I thought would reflect the actual distribution of men\women who are severely affected by sterotyping.

We all affected but some - severely

 

2. Yes, just one. And you know in oder to find just one person you havte to talk, befriend with maybe hundreads of people.

Sereotypes just do not give say a short person a chance (I amnot short though). He would have VERY HARD TIME finding, inetvoweing and dating his 100 women in order to find just one.

[annie24]

Well, most people start dating as teenagers, and then they get married in their late 20s or 30s, so by then, they have literally met hundreds and hundreds of people. No, they haven't dated that many, but they've met and interacted with that many. Either way, we agree that it's a numbers game...