rich 1517 -

[rich_1517]

i need feedback. not on what i want to say, but whether to call. a friend pointed out we are doing Exactly what made us fail, one waiting for the other. i think i should call. like soon. like now. this really is what we do, and why things dont progress. i cant move without her saying something but she wont, she wont move becuase she is a waiter. this has to be addressed before we lose it.

 

if you want to understand why see my latest posts.

 

I found the words i need to address what i want

 

"im sad right now. im looking at how our story is ending, or whatever it is and its just like how we were for the last year. each is waiting for the other to do something, so nothing happens. thats where the passion goes. everyone plays it safe and no one wins. you said you wanted to fight for what you needed.

 

well this is exactly how the two are linked. we cannot just live a neutered non friends non lovers way, there has to be more or less. more i dont know what that looks like, less i do, it means take what we had and call it a day. accept the loss of each other and that love and understand that friends will be something else, sometime else.

 

or.. get in the ring and find where the passion lies, becuase passion like anything else in life is about fighting and risk taking, trust me on this. i live it. my passions have been my best attribute and worst enemy, but its always about risk of being hurt in some way, it wouldnt be pasisonate if it wasnt, safety sometimes has to take a back seat to desire

 

well there it is.

[GeeCee]

Rich

 

You should call her. You have played her game and made your changes. You have played your game and made your changes.

 

You should call her - this waiting game is not doing you or her any good. If it was part of the problem of your previous relationship, make a change and break the cycle. Talk to her.

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

ok i made the call. funny how your fears get you. i used the laptop as an excuse. she is going to her moms for the weekend. its in the middle of nowhere.

 

so here we go does anyone have a problem with what i want to say? or want to add to it?

 

she will probably stop by on her way home from playing hooky today from work with her son.

 

man this makes sense, but the question is will it make sense to her? well its time either way, there will certainly be a little more clarity.

 

i think i make a dinner, we play a game of gin, and then i talk. then say think about it. no rush. ill be here. (LOL)

[strong1]

I've reached the same point you're at and it seems the cycle can go on ENDLESSLY.

 

I vote you try option #1 ...."im sad right now. im looking at how our story is ending, or whatever it is and its just like how we were for the last year. each is waiting for the other to do something, so nothing happens. thats where the passion goes. everyone plays it safe and no one wins. you said you wanted to fight for what you needed. "

 

But watch your tone when you say it..keep it even...not ANYTHING she will take as being harsh or yelling. Make it a very, reserved and controlled tone.

[strong1]

GOOD FOR YOU. One more thing..once you finish your little speech. Just stop talking. Don't say anything...And then..if there's still silence do your 'give it some thought' thing...but then don't say ANYTHING else to try to convince her..or you'll lose all your steam and she'll get defensive. The most important thing is your tone tho. Keep it soft. Yet reassured.

[rich_1517]

thanks strong one. dont worry i am my old self, been waiting for this conversation for a long time. this isnt an angrytype of thing now. i realised that we really are repeating our pattern, and hers.

 

i will say it, tell her to think about it. be prepared to here nothing now, or even for a while. it has to be a combination of this is the line, but here is a solution before we cross it.

[Mar]

I completely agree, Rich, and you know very well how I feel about this situation. If she's still waffling about how she feels or how much or how little she wants to commit, after basically telling you she's willing to give it a try-THIS ISN'T "GIVING IT A TRY." This is her sitting on her butt and waiting for you to YET AGAIN somehow "prove your sincerity" in this relationship, and nevermind what she might have to prove as well.

 

Stop being so passive and roll-over on this one. You've been letting it slide and letting it slide and letting her call all the shots, to no avail. When is enough enough? Are you finally at the point of admitting that you're giving about 90% more than she is? If so, I applaud you. I sincerely hope you can see what you're missing and what you can potentially GAIN by being firm in your decision and talking to her about what she's doing, or NOT doing. And yes, you can figure it out for yourself what I mean.....lol

 

 

Mar

[rich_1517]

heres a refinement.

 

we arent friends, but we arent lovers either. i have no idea how to treat you. i dont see you being very interested in seeing me, its kind of going through the motions from my perspective. i need to see interest from you if you want to see me.

[DaisyB]

Ah, the time has come. I hope it goes well. Good for you for identifying that this has been a constant problem for the two of you.

 

You know what you need to say better than the rest of us do. Just make sure your tone is calm and straightforward -- try to stick to what you feel, rather than putting words in her mouth ("I don't know how to treat you right now" instead of "you don't seem interested in our relationship"). Then say what you need to say, confident that you've done as much as you can to make this relationship work.

 

Good luck. I'll be thinking about you.

[rich_1517]

ok well she is exhausted and really tried to find a way to come by. she has her son with her. i let her off the hook, its good that i want resolution but pushing too hard will bring a bad result. she had to drive basically five hours to pick up her brother, son and go to the amusement park and get home. but she did want to do it. i said nah.

 

she lives an hour away and said "its my turn to drive to you" for sunday. so she is willing to make efforts now. thats good.

 

she doesnt know by the way that a talk is coming. i think my not calling is having some effect, and my lack of pushing may be also. im not rushing to make anything happen.

 

so we have aimed for monday.

 

i feel little crappy about seeing the other girl tomorrow but maybe its exactly what i need.

 

she is really being supportive towards her ex husband right now. he leaves for mexico to take a vacation but he has to be out of his house by the 29th. she has offered her couch if he doesnt find a place. then he leaves to be with the "love of his life" in chile. uhm, she said stable is a high priority, he may be working her codependant side.

 

this one makes me nervous. he was jerk in their marriage, lately he has been trying to be a "nicer" guy. not that i can see. her family likes me, thinks hes a jerk, big time. i want to ask her but maybe better to be a better competitor, but i could ask "is there anyone waiting in the wings?"

 

anyway, her tone was very upbeat she was glad to talk to me, and wants to get together. i just said hey dont overdo it this week will be fine. i need her open and happy for this. not in fear or reactive.

 

i really want to do this now, but perhaps a couple days will allow me to face some things. and say what i need to with love in my heart.

[strong1]

BRAVO! Excellent move to wait until she is better rested and less stressed. That shows you're getting centered. Proud of you!

[rich_1517]

ok so it is time for honesty, but also some tactics wouldnt hurt either.

 

the more i think about it her resolve and barriers have been pretty up. i dont know all the reasons. and maybe her ex is part of it but i cant dwell on that or it will just knaw at me.

 

so a winning hand that also includes my needs. and my needs would be:

 

1. knowing that she wants to try for real even if its just dating

-> i can relax and enjoy it more

 

2. that she will tell me what she needs as we move forward

-> i know that as things come up we can resolve them or not

 

3. if someone else is in the picture we agree to say so

 

4. that if passion happens she will not fight it

-> this allows me to work that side

 

5. that if we succeed at dating for some length of time we will committ

 

6. that she will tell me what she is feeling more

-> this about the trust that i have told her she doesnt have. if we can succeed at this many other barriers will drop.

 

obvously i will not come to the conversation with demands like that. it will be the ones on the first post. as suggestions. these would follow should she want to proceed.

 

so yeah its about barriers now, she has demonstrated something in showing up and hanging on as long as she has, as have i but its that next step. tactics would say more value must be seen and some longing. i suppose my implied ultimatum will supply some of that.

 

the end of the conversation has to be just calm. let her sit with it. i have to prepare for an answer i may not like, and tactics again would say dont give a yes or no choice, open the door but dont slam it. I dont know if there is room in here for that. but laying out what i need doesnt necessarily close the door, it implies she will lose me but doesnt say it. she will figure out over time that if my needs arent met i cant do this.

 

and i really cant, last saturday tore it for me. no more paltonic dates of ambiguity. if we are to date, it has to have something more to it. but what separates platonic from more in early dating? the option for me to seduce her slowly without active resistance. hell that doesnt even require kissing right away.

 

i know how to do it if she is open to it. its create mystery, and use my darker and mischevious side but for a good cause. she just has to be open to it.

 

your thoughts?

[rich_1517]

its actually good we did not connect or that i told her why beyond her computer. somethings changing not sure what. obviously she was thinking already becuase of saying its time she drove to me. thats good. more then you know. i used to blow off going to her house a lot. i had the better place, yada yada. but i have made great efforts to things in her town, at her house. change. her saying come to me, means it had an impact.

 

ok team. i need your help. i want all sides i can hear from, from the shes not worthy of you to the play the game longer to the tell the truth.

 

i realised i am rushing to understand instead of listen. have to stop.

 

i want to make sure i am not just telling her, but talking to her about what i need and what i see, then leave it alone, then listen or be prepared for whatever comes back.

 

on one hand things could be getting better. i probably could have wiated this out, knowing now what her plans were.

 

with her seeming to be positive its diffcult to pull the trigger on this, i also dont want to spend lightly the emotional capital i may have created in her. the value of me.

 

but.. i need to clear up that this is doesnt seem like friends or lovers and my fear is that friends will be damaged if im taken for granted and lovers or partner cant grow because i dont know how to treat her if she sees me as a friend. nothing can grow, nothing can change. i dont have this answer yet. it could be just saying "you dont seem that interested"

 

but.. this leads into whats good about us (see short list here) and that the investment we both have could be lost.

 

we havent lost any contact since breakup, what are we doing? no one seems to be in a rush to go anywhere. is there something we are both waiting to have happen? some change or feeling? it sounds familiar doesnt it?

 

this leads to "is it possible that you and i are repeating the same pattern that may have caused us to fail? that we are both watching for the other person to do something? if you want to know where the passion went thats it, but its both of us. i waited for you to change as well and witheld those things that could have made a difference.

 

i cant ask you to fight for something you are unsure of but if i felt this had to be considered before we get to far apart from a lack of communcating. i have been very careful not to analise you or this (to her anyway) because i misused those skills before, but i though it was time we tried to maybe understand each other again and what we want.

 

but is it possible that we cant build a bridge or truly find what we ahve as long as neither of will take a risk? passion is all about risk."

 

(still under construction, more to follow)

[rich_1517]

jeez. i think im gunshy right now. she called while i was out to say hi. i dont want to call back. i am out of sorts. man this has to change. but nothing will be hurt. ill call later when i know she is out of range, say hi sorry i missed you have a great weekend.

 

boy i need to get out more!

[DaisyB]

I would go ahead with the talk, even after she's shown a few positive signs. Those positives are good, but they don't solve the bigger issues. However, don't forget about the things she has done -- if it's a big deal for her to have invited you to lunch or driven to your house, don't trivialize those things. Just tell her that you're not sure where your relationship is right now, and you're worried about getting into the same pattern that you were in before you broke up. . . then you could talk about taking risks.

 

Make sure you really do listen, and be prepared for her to say, "I just don't know right now." If that's what she says, then don't press the issue.

 

As far as her ex-husband goes -- I wouldn't worry about him for now. Because of their child, he's always going to be a factor in her life. But she doesn't seem to have any feelings for him that would threaten how she feels about you.

 

If she says she doesn't know, or that she needs more time, what will be your response? Total withdrawal? More of the same game?

 

I admit -- even though I would probably do the conservative, long-term plan, I'm ready for someone to pull something really crazy. What about telling her you love her but you aren't waiting around forever, then packing your bags, selling your house, moving to Tahiti, and getting a job giving foot massages and tattoos to beautiful women?[/i]

[rich_1517]

You go daisy

 

excellent advice. i started having a very very depressed moment. and couldnt figure out why. then it hit me, i have given this too much effort of thought and compromise.

 

two things are potential with that fact. one i could really blow it by it just being to much for me and saying too much.

 

the other is that i am tired of it, of the game, the ambiguity, lack of emotional gratification, lack of being desired, it has eaten at me to have someone i have loved trivialise me by their actions.

 

so its anger and depression, i will go on my date tonight and keep it simple, ilike this other girl but i think she will still be alittle distant from me dumping her. i realise im not quite ready to date a whole lot yet, its almost like i want someone to climb into bed with me to make me feel better. (a little lovin)

 

but i hope that by morning i am back on track for the conversation, becuase one part of me just wants to be polite hand her the laptop and say nothing, walk away. make no comment. i need time to see how much of that is really true or just the moment.

 

but i am very close to being done, and its sad, she has no concept of the damage she is doing with this ambigous approach. its killing a friendship and love at the same time.

 

I do not think i have the reserves without encouragement to go a whole lot further. if she cant accept me on some level now, then she never will.

 

at the same time i may come back around and continue to try and win her over, but the taken granted part has to go. there must be some essensce or words that say "your losing me" even its only a small message, its time becuase i will start to date with the goal of getting attention and affection.

 

thing is we may be taking too long to repair this, too little clarity that others become a more attractive option in the face of nothing.

 

at the same time this energy may be exactly what this situation needs. its like the job thing, the time to ask for a raise is when you are ready to leave.

 

i can also say nothing. and do nothing. just withdraw and have my say when she calls. or wonders whats up. i feel this path is wrong when you consider a loving relationship. it rules out saying why i am brushing her off. im not really brushing her off, but i am headed towards other women.

 

yeah thats where i am at. i hope i can pull it together by monday.

[rich_1517]

ok heres what i have come with as a revised

 

"i have been thinking about what you said three weeks ago, I mean what you wanted to try. and unlike other times i have taken some time to think about it before i say anything.

 

this is friends/dating thing is unclear, i leaves me not know how to treat you and well if this about turning me into just a friend its pissing me off, whether its real or perceived.

 

fact is i cant be a real friend or lover this way, as a friend i show up but i like you more than that. as a lover i can do nothing until i get a signal from you do i can affect that not at all.

 

its my opinion and im prepared for you to not agreee that we are repeating exactly what caused us to fail, we both are waiting for some sign from the other person about whats up.

 

i think we failed becuase at least in my case i didnt acknowledge the efforts you would make, like driving down here today, or suprising me with lunch last week. which is appreciated and feels good. but i think we both expected some sign or recognition but neither one of us tried to really change, changes we are making now for ourselves anyway.

 

I think it was that lack of risk taking by us both, that lack of acknowledgement by both that lead to us failing and thats where the passion went. i dont think our choices are bad, but perhaps our willingness to be less stubborn, becuase the truth is you have said you want to change things about yourself that i felt i needed, and i am changing those things about myself that you needed. funny huh?

 

for me at this point there needs to be some direction on this, some idea of what you want for me to stay in it. three years and the last few months neither of us has gone very far, its also a lot memories and investment to let go. we have the same wit, intellect, spiritual beliefs, values, hell we even break up fair, honesty, trust and love. i still believe its a hard combintation to beat.

 

but thats where the fighting for it comes in, either we both take the risk to save it or we both dont. but i also believe that passion comes from there too. seeing and feeling someone taking a chance and willing to try and make it work.

 

passion i understand, I came back to the table willing to say i would accept less, you syuprised me by saying want more, im just not sure if i agree with why you think it left. but i do understand wanting becuase i want it for myself.

[rich_1517]

hmmm. still needs some revising i think.

 

i cant help but think of the game, the strategy. what would happen if i just went a little flatter? you know not pushed or as part of that sounds plead?

 

i suppose some could be said without a hard line, and then still pull away and then come back and give her hope, then pull away. Beec? or anyone else in the tactics department have a thought on this?

 

i know you cannot talk someone into love or passion, just doesnt happen that way. hmmm must be something that works beyond leaving her to feel life without me.

 

actions do speak louder and the more i grow and stand on my own feet with this (im actually excited to have a date tonight) the more she will sense the loss. said or unsaid. i just dont know. but i will.

[Mar]

You know what I've noticed throughout this whole thing, Rich? You've made up these letters, these hypothoses, several times, yet never really applied them, because you were always looking for the end of the rainbow. When's enough going to be enough? If I'm reading it right, you're now taking a positive in the fact that she's taken the initiative for ONCE to come to you, instead of you coming to her. Big deal. That doesn't signify commitment. That signifies a slight obligation. NOT to say it's bad, just that it's NOT the sign you're looking for in making this relationship work, much as you'd like it to.

 

Rich, her driving to meet you is NOT a sign of commitment or moving forward, I hate to tell you. Heck, I split up driving to my friends' houses all the time just so they're not the ones travelling to see me all the time! You see what I'm saying here? This isn't forward movement......this is LATERAL movement; sideways, in other words.

 

You haven't gotten the REAL signs, and you're building up false hope with these signs you perceive as her moving forward, when she's really not. She's not moving BACKWARD, she's just not progressing the relationship any. Heck, I tell my friends I'll drive to them all the time......they're just friends, and people I enjoy hanging out with.

 

Do you see what I'm saying here? I'm not trying to be cruel, more just trying to point out that you're grasping at straws and reading into things that aren't there. You need to have "THE TALK" with her, NOW. Not tomorrow, not next week, not when you think she's sliding a bit more away from you. Now.

 

 

Mar

[rich_1517]

jeeez, i like coffe but maybe not that strong!

 

fair enough, i asked for it and i got it. and you are right. i have been playing a game based on hope because that is all i have had.

 

and its why on some level im almost prepared to play by her rules. say nothing, date others, cut her off completely. no relationship is no relationship.

 

it doesnt require me to say a damn thing. nothing does. im still going to ping pong on this but doing nothing, ignoring her might be better than once again exposing my feelings and giving them away. i have shown up for something that doesnt currently exist. in that you are correct.

 

if i do nothing i dont have to face it either. i can just use her rule of letting go, do nothing. dont wait for the phone or the date just move on.

 

if i am the only one who wants to save this, then whats the point of the conversation? i dont think it makes me a coward or dishonors my own feelings. hell it might just drive her nuts. but that hasnt been my style really. but you know i really dont want to hear "i just want you as a friend".

 

thoughts on that?

[rich_1517]

well i hope someone comes in to offer a glimmer of hope to Mars hard light. but well its true and its not true. she is not moving is real the truth. but the one i have to look at is she isnt moving towards me.

 

tonight was what i needed. i was a little concerned that this girl (2) would be cautious or still angry with me. nope. we were laughing immediately and there was chemistry the moment she walked in the door, by the end of the night i had to say hey its late, i had massaged her, stroked her hair and damn near went right over the line. told her it was late to end the night. but being able to physically pay attention to someone was awesome. she was very appreciative. so i guess shes not angry.

 

but i am sad, and maybe the truth is its time for the truth. that i am waiting for something that will not happen or it will but not from me waiting for it to.

[rich_1517]

there are a couple of factors here, but Mar is correct there is no movement and lack of respect for my feelings. this could be anything thats going on and the reason for it, but its death to let it continue and yeah maybe the best way to save it is to drop it. i have lived with the gut feeling that she is done she just cant face it either.

 

on the other hand, we havent gone a week without contact in three years. well actually ten days on my saying i need you to not call.

 

but we arent dating we dont have real planning interactively or including each other in our lives in any meaningful fashion. but here we both are. and yes she is not moving towards. but i can tell by her tone she is losing some of that confidence she had. now its up to me to make sure that it doesnt return, its hurtful and well its draining.

 

so i guess its down to my needs and not my wants. more later.

 

man did i learn this from women, get someone else in the picture it helps. this other girl makes me feel like im special again, she needed attention and for me sharing those things i have learned with someone who appreciates them is awesome. i slept very well. i know that i will be able to bring her into things if i choose but i have to be honest about where i am. in the past she has been ok with no committment but i have to tell her the truth and let her decide.

[rich_1517]

well i will just keep sorting out here, then pick through the threads.

 

im now at this

 

"for me to continue to date you i need you to show some active interest. else there is someone i want to date, its not my first choice but i do know where i stand with her."

 

and not tell her who i think or maybe i will. she used to come by and watch me go away for weekend with the other girl while i was dating them both. i suppose competition is a legimate tool. she used to visit my roomate, her friend and would come by while i was with the other girl. i had suggested she call first while we were dating so we could avoid that.

[DaisyB]

Happy Easter, Rich. . .

 

I'm glad your date went so well!

 

Before bringing up the other girl with your ex, I'd examine your reasons for doing so. . . are you trying to get a response from her? Make her jealous? Mentioning the other girl seems like manipulation to me. . . maybe it's not, but it comes off sounding that way.

 

I think the best thing the other girl can do for you is give you some internal motivation for having this talk with your ex, and for withdrawing if your ex says she can't date you right now. If your ex presses you about why you need her to make a decision, you can mention wanting to date others. If she presses you on that, you can mention the girl -- you catch my drift.

[rich_1517]

Hi Daisy

 

my motives for brining it are crappy ill admit it. i just am frustrated and venting here. competition is a reasonable way to get someone to realise their loss, without having to say it.

 

i think im having a reaction to Mars post. she can be umm direct, and nothing against her but she sees it one sided. what i am not getting and not doing. its hard for people to see what the past is here or even the texture of a relationship when posting, but it still got to me.

 

i really dont know yet what i want to do. it has to change, and what i say has to come from the heart either way. i just need to find what it is i can handle and how much to walk and how much to hope.

 

i really dont want to get hurt again, im tired of seeing it so close up, at the same time if there is something here to be saved then i am all for it.

 

so strength and hope, tough one. but keep it coming.