In this day and age, how does one define "virginity"?

[Taomagicdragon]

A hypocrite will surely find something else to use, when they are no longer fitting within their own views of virginity. No use in trying to redefine it en masse.

[Taomagicdragon]

People would no longer be virginal through skin to skin contact although they would still be virgins if it didn't go further than that.

 

I've have done mental calculations about how boobs and fanny would probably feel like based on information, but have never actually felt them, after all, you cant experience anything through speculation, so thus information sources, like textbooks or pornography is ok for chastity then since you are not feeling anyone.

 

Those who do the action, and those who expend mental energy to get a concrete grasp of the concept are the same. It may not literally be the same, no, but it still carries around the same feelings and personal consequences (if any) as if you performed the thought out.

 

If this weren't the case in modern society, there'd be no such legal actions against conspiracy to commit *insert crime here*.

 

If someone wishes to be chaste, then they must be so in action as well as thought.

 

Whatever connotations one wants to associate with being a virgin, let them. Being a virgin and losing virginity is a personal affair, so the definition of it ought to be personal for each individual.

 

Not to mention, being a virgin is a neutral concept that has positive images in association, but it can also have negative associations in regards to the high-horse attitudes some have with it or a feeling of hypocracy for "doing everything but intercourse".

 

Associating chastity with being a virgin doesn't make virginity good, it just means one of the associations with being a virgin can mean being chaste. If you choose to attribute that word with being a virgin, then go right ahead, but do make sure you don't accidentally infer that having sex with your soul mate makes you less chaste or less pure as sex itself, like virginity, is a neutral aspect given many associations; some good and others bad.

 

When one learns to separate an aspect or manner of being from its many varied connotations, especially when dealing with a something that's of a personal nature, then one will find that it's all neutral, and up to our own individuality to determine how it means to us.

[Luke Skywalker]

Those who do the action, and those who expend mental energy to get a concrete grasp of the concept are the same. It may not literally be the same, no, but it still carries around the same feelings and personal consequences (if any) as if you performed the thought out.

 

If this weren't the case in modern society, there'd be no such legal actions against conspiracy to commit *insert crime here*.

 

Conspiracy to commit crime implies an intent to commit crime. If there is no intent then it may be a good book or movie you are viewing which is also imaginary that may contain criminal elements within the story plot. Does the author get arrested for writing fiction that contains a fictional conspiracy to commit crime by one of the story's characters? Of course not.

 

Since I disagree with the premise of your argument as outlined above, I would like to see how you respond before I answer the rest of the reply.

[valiantv]

Luke, why are you trying to define virginity in such a strict manner? Basically the only people who need to do so are strict religious or moral people, and they have their own consciences / rules to decide whether or not what they did was acceptable...

 

I don't see how being a virgin should matter in any aspect of life, unless you choose to make it one.

 

That is kind of my original point. Once you go beyond the whole religious / moral thing, the word "virgin" is no longer needed, just like other activities don't have words for people who've never done them before, so it should be with sex.

[Taomagicdragon]

I said personal consequences such as feelings you may experience or feelings of guilt, anger, suspense, or satisfaction, etc. The example of conspiracy was only a vehicle of metaphor, not a literal adaptation. I can't speak for an author as it depends if the murder was a passing incident, the main plot, etc etc. Use a better counter argument next time that is specific.

 

It still remains: if your mind is on sex constantly, you're no more "chaste" than a person that sleeps around. Both are still perverts (if you identify chaste as being free of sex).

[valiantv]

It still remains: if your mind is on sex constantly, you're no more "chaste" than a person that sleeps around. Both are still perverts (if you identify chaste as being free of sex).

You are a bit more, since you've "resisted the urge"...

[Luke Skywalker]

Luke, why are you trying to define virginity in such a strict manner? Basically the only people who need to do so are strict religious or moral people, and they have their own consciences / rules to decide whether or not what they did was acceptable...

 

Because if a strict defination is not constructed then it just loses meaning, then the bar can go anywhere. If you really want to go a slipper slope, then real loss of virginity could be defined as the first time anyone had 'good sex' or define it as the first time anyone really 'made love' in the truest sense of the word and count out even technical penetrative sex (i.e. one-night stands, casual hook-ups, escorts, etc....) as well while we are at it. So, now people who have gone with escorts, casual-hook-ups, etc... but never really made love are still virgins now since they never experienced intimate love-making sex but just some technical form of sex which doesn't count for anything.

 

You have extremes of interpretations on both sides. However when I read your view-point, I looked at your post as something to be reckoned with.

 

You see I tend to separate the mind as irrelevant to the actions, despite my own faith teaches that the mind without the actions could be just as important to a lesser degree. Christians on a Christian board once argued that I was not a virgin because I looked at porn, but then I scoffed at that argument because looking at porn and actually experiening a live warm blooded person are two different things entirely and I could not see a correlation.

 

How can anyone create a reliable experience based on fiction? You cant experience something that's imaginary.

 

That is kind of my original point. Once you go beyond the whole religious / moral thing, the word "virgin" is no longer needed, just like other activities don't have words for people who've never done them before, so it should be with sex.

 

Well, the whole religious/moral thing is important, otherwise we are really no better than animals aren't we? (I guess some people would argue the human is an advanced animal, but I'd disagree with that)

[Taomagicdragon]

Religions and morals are not the same thing, so a moral sense and a religious sense of virginity are vastly different. There is no "moral" definition, however, as a virgin just means (mainly) no penetrative sex (or sex of any kind if you wish to phrase it that way) and doesn't hold any moral or ethical connotations, as a virgin can still be a murderer (example).

 

On the flip side, not being a virgin has no moral connotations either, as they can be "sluts" (male and female) or devout to their life partners (hetero or homo).

 

Makes no difference, really. People are mad that hypocrites that have done everything but intercourse can say they're virgins, well, why should it concern you? If they're lying to themselves, it'll bite them back, or maybe in their own mind it's a true definition, you can't say they're wrong (yes I am saying a " * * * *" can be a virgin).

[Taomagicdragon]

You are a bit more, since you've "resisted the urge"...

 

That's assuming there was temptation. A lack of opportunity doesn't mean you resisted anything.

 

Also assuming sex is something to be ashamed of, or something that makes you less pure, other people see it as having no effect on the nature of who you are as a person.

[JadedStar]

People are mad that hypocrites that have done everything but intercourse can say they're virgins, well, why should it concern you? If they're lying to themselves, it'll bite them back, or maybe in their own mind it's a true definition, you can't say they're wrong (yes I am saying a " * * * *" can be a virgin).

 

 

Doesn't concern me in a sense that I lose sleep over it, I think we are all allowed to have pet peeves and not ask permission.

 

I don't go around blowing my top over it, it isn't that important to me. Very few things in life anger me to that extent.

[Luke Skywalker]

Religions and morals are not the same thing, so a moral sense and a religious sense of virginity are vastly different. There is no "moral" definition, however, as a virgin just means (mainly) no penetrative sex (or sex of any kind if you wish to phrase it that way) and doesn't hold any moral or ethical connotations, as a virgin can still be a murderer (example).

 

I've discussed this on other threads under the concept of retroactive infidality, that anyone who has pre-marital sex is cheating on their future spouce because they have not saved themselves for them. Thus, potentially you have cheated on someone you've never meet yet and already you cheated on them. The only consolation to this is your future spouce likely already cheated on you in this type of society so you are even, but two wrongs doesn't make a right.

 

From a religious stand-point, it's all about relationship with God. The Bible says that fornication is not healthy for spiritual growth to a believer in Christ. Obviously, if you are a non-believer, then you have other issues to worry about than if you are a virgin or non-virgin, you have to concern yourself about getting right with God and receiving Christ before it's too late. The Bible distinguishes 'saved' and 'not-saved', and a virgin or non-virgin makes no difference whatsoever in that regard since we are all sinners who need Christ anyway.

 

On the flip side, not being a virgin has no moral connotations either, as they can be "sluts" (male and female) or devout to their life partners (hetero or homo).

 

But some guys like to know they really have gone where no man has gone before rather than one where someone else has gone there before. But you are right, it's sort of carnal if you look at it, sex is also about sharing and love, and if you really love someone you are going to overlook some things.

 

Makes no difference, really. People are mad that hypocrites that have done everything but intercourse can say they're virgins, well, why should it concern you? If they're lying to themselves, it'll bite them back, or maybe in their own mind it's a true definition, you can't say they're wrong (yes I am saying a " * * * *" can be a virgin).

 

Right, that's why I guess the term 'technical virgin' comes up. I have to ask, when they say 'technical virgin' what exactly do they mean? So someone you think is a virgin may have sucked some off.

 

According to the Bible or religious standpoint- oral sex or any form of sexual touching is a 'temple defiling sin' as the body is deemed to be the temple of the Holy Spirit and God's property. As Antiochuh Epiphanes of the Greeks put a pig inside the Jewish Temple at the time of Jewish occupation, or pagans put up idols in the Temple during the prophet Ezekiel, so is the same thing when you do things that are temple defiling. You break a hedge of protection, demon spirits (usually of a lust variety) will start having 'legal rights' when you defile the temple, and will always encourage you to go further and further since it's never satisfied. Thus the 'technical virgin' doesn't exist.

[Luke Skywalker]

It still remains: if your mind is on sex constantly, you're no more "chaste" than a person that sleeps around. Both are still perverts (if you identify chaste as being free of sex).

 

And if you've read a horror/mystery novel or watched a horror/mystery movie than you are no better than some serial killer who is behind bars. That's how I see that argument in analogy.

 

I have a secretary at my office who likes reading murder mystery novels because she likes imagining the gory scenes where people get decapitated, and I'm like 'what'? But that secretary is just a secretary who lives a normal life, but just likes that type of gross stuff. She wouldn't actually go around and chopping people's heads in my office. Most people have a barrier between fiction and reality.

 

People's minds are on allot of things all the time, but unless they actually go to the stage of actually planning to put something into action with an intent - then those thoughts really mean nothing further than fantasy or reading a novel - all fictional.

[Flux]

* Is someone who is raped or molested no longer a virgin?

I think that they are not virgins, but theorhetically I believe that emotionally, they still are virgins... if that makes sense

 

* Is actual intercourse the only act that counts when determining ones virginity?

Yes. I don't believe that foreplay and fooling around, would be virginise someone

* If you willingly engage in other intimate sexual acts but do not have intercourse, is it fair to still consider yourself a virgin?

Yes

* How would you define losing your virginity if you were/are homosexual or bisexual?

Sleeping with a member of the same sex. Though scientifically a woman who had not engaged in heterosexual sex, only homosexual sex, is a virgin. However emotionally and physically she is not

* Is being a virgin based on your feelings, what you do, or is it a combination of both?

Ultimatly I think its a combination of both...

* Is there an emotional component to losing your virginity, meaning if you have sex but don't feel anything is different about you, does it count?

Yes it still counts, losing ones virginity is the physicality of it; you cannot decide to still be a virgin if when having sex it wasnt what it was cracked up to be

* Is the current definition of virginity, and all the social stigma attached to it, biased toward girls? Is this right?

I think the sex-issue is biased towards girls, not so much virginity

* Does the current definition of virginity exclude homosexuals? Is this right?

I think in some aspects it does and doesn't

* Is virginity subjective (based on how the individual views themselves and what they do) or objective (how the situation is viewed by others on the outside)?

 

I think it is very objective, whereas it should be subjective... people are losing there virginities just so they can tell thier friends, and its screwed up..

[Taomagicdragon]

And if you've read a horror/mystery novel or watched a horror/mystery movie than you are no better than some serial killer who is behind bars. That's how I see that argument in analogy.

 

I have a secretary at my office who likes reading murder mystery novels because she likes imagining the gory scenes where people get decapitated, and I'm like 'what'? But that secretary is just a secretary who lives a normal life, but just likes that type of gross stuff. She wouldn't actually go around and chopping people's heads in my office. Most people have a barrier between fiction and reality.

 

People's minds are on allot of things all the time, but unless they actually go to the stage of actually planning to put something into action with an intent - then those thoughts really mean nothing further than fantasy or reading a novel - all fictional.

 

She reads it to get the thrill, many killers do it to get the thrill (especially contract killers and it;s a component in many serial killers). Is she enjoying reading it or is she imagining herself being the killer? There's a difference between reading something, and imagining you are doing the actions Now I said personal consequences, meaning feelings, not necessarily laws or outside consequences. Do I think your friend is a killer, no, but she did get enjoyment out of it, and a thrill... and that's what many killers get after committing the action, so in that aspect they're the same because she's human, and many humans get a rush out of violence, doesn't mean they'd do it in real life, but it means they get a rush out of it. Same story with video games and real crime, just because you would experience similar feelings doesn't mean you'd actually do it, but it also doesn't mean you can hold yourself much higher than a killer morality wise, except you can say you wouldn't actually do it.

 

Thoughts and deeds are separate, but the feelings you get from thinking and doing similar things are, indeed, similar. Whether or not you'd ever do it, is a different story.

 

However, we're talking about sex. Most people that think a lot about sex, want sex, so you're thinking about something that you are waiting for a chance to do, I doubt your secretary friend is waiting for a chance to commit murder so your analogy falls apart right then and there. Sorry.

 

As for porn, I view it as pathetic (personally) and lacking of appeal. Then again, I'm also asexual so that should be taken into account on that part.

[Luke Skywalker]

Same story with video games and real crime, just because you would experience similar feelings doesn't mean you'd actually do it, but it also doesn't mean you can hold yourself much higher than a killer morality wise, except you can say you wouldn't actually do it.

 

Right it may desensitize people to violence, but when it happens to someone you know or gets personal, then that's a different attitude. I would think that people are desensitized - and not due to movies or books, but because you see it all the time on the news of something going wrong.

 

Thoughts and deeds are separate, but the feelings you get from thinking and doing similar things are, indeed, similar. Whether or not you'd ever do it, is a different story.

 

But how can you get feelings of having sex if you never actually have sex. Basically, that means the feelings are based on an incorrect experience based on a speculative premise. There may be a zillion calculations of how sex may feel like - all of which are wrong - all you can get is a simulation, thereforeeee the feelings based on the simulation have to be wrong, and that's why you cant experience having sex with mental calculations if you never had sex.

 

For example, when I was a two year old, I believed women had penises like guys did, until I found out later they had a different organ altogether. What ever masturbation I may have done when I was two years old was based on anal tranny sex - at that age, because I didn't have a clear concept of the female anatomy. When I grew up a bit, I had to up-date the simulation. I've always masturbated since I was a kid and dont seem to know why I have this problem. I just remembered that something didn't feel right when I did so back then but I didn't know why. One thing I did remember is what whenever I did that, I believed the girl was a blone white Greek caucasian girl - ironically, when looking at escort ads - 'greek' is a code term for anal sex. Interesting correlation - but the point is - what I know from 2 years is not much different from what I know now without actual sex.

 

So, if I never experienced sex, based on that example, how can I create a simulation of how it feels like. I've pieced to gether lots of information of how it's probably like, but the simulations will never be accurate as to actually experience it. So, I would still see a dictinction that I dont have carnal knowledge just a data-bank of information that's always updating itself.

 

However, we're talking about sex. Most people that think a lot about sex, want sex, so you're thinking about something that you are waiting for a chance to do, I doubt your secretary friend is waiting for a chance to commit murder so your analogy falls apart right then and there. Sorry.

 

Or I may just be making hypothetical calculations since I'm an analytical type with low energy or looking for a pressure release valve for built up semen.

 

But there is nothing that I see wrong with losing your virginity in the context of marriage, so I mean, having a chance to get married and experience sex is something within the established confines of both my moral and religious beliefs.

 

As for porn, I view it as pathetic (personally) and lacking of appeal. Then again, I'm also asexual so that should be taken into account on that part.

 

Well, I look at themes and messages from the porn as well. For example, I may look at 'skin pigmentation contrast' on ethnic porn, and watching women in various stages of undress and mapping body parts, ... or what's called 'escort porn' that is viewing ads of escorts (which often have softcore nude shots) because they give an illusion that they are available if you have money and you can re-calculate it to lowest common demonators, etc....

 

Without a theme - porn lacks any appeal to me too. But I realize that there is something wrong - I'm just hoping it's a phase and i lose interest in these particular fetishes.

 

But again, it's just information, you cant get any experience from just viewing porn.

[Taomagicdragon]

I don't see porn as wrong, personally, just pathetic.

 

A consenting (hopefully) adult (hopefully) is showing off her assets to the camera in order to entice an individual. She gets paid (most likely) and you get your enticement; perfectly okay.

[Taomagicdragon]

Also, as to why I'm debating:

 

I'm bored and love to debate.

[Luke Skywalker]

Ok, I had this argument before on a Christian board that you cant lose your virginity by imagining you are losing your virginity (surprizingly one person claimed my porn viewing is sort of like that but I disagreed). You are saying there is no difference between thoughts and actions - and in a sense, that's what Jesus also says - but however I believe that leads to a paradox because you cant experience something you dont actually know so I'm confused of how the thoughts and actions would be linked. Nevertheless, sure, I dont think it's a good idea to look at porn, I know how a woman's anatomy looks like from childhood, looking at porn is to get some sort of thrill or rush on a particular fetish - which I dont know why I have them.

[Taomagicdragon]

Never said you'd lose virginity, I did say that it lowers your "chastity" value.

 

I separate virginity from being chaste, the two are not synonymous.

[Suesser Tod]

Virginity is...

 

 

Well, virginity is...

 

 

Eh, does it actually exist?

 

 

Well, they tried to come up with a definition of what it was. However, the real reason to come up with it was because it was the only way to make sure a woman wasn't pregnant.

 

Back in the old ages, marriages were arranged to continue bloodlines and protect wealth (money, as usual). The only way to make sure that you were going to inherit everything to your child, was to make sure it was actually YOUR child. Without pregnancy tests, nor DNA paternity tests, the only way to make sure you'll have your own child was to marry someone that hadn't had sex before, so it would be impossible for her to be pregnant with someone else's child. Then proceed to knock her up ASAP, the wedding night and honey moon.

 

That is also one of the reasons why the first born was the "valuable" child who inherited everything (tough luck if you got a girl). As once the woman wasn't virgin it was not possible to prove it was your child.

 

Also that is why virginity has always been a big deal for women but not for men.

 

IMHO, the virginity concept is obsolete, as it was only a way to prove a female couldn't be pregnant. Nowadays, there are several ways to make sure of it, we are no longer getting into arranged marriages (well, mostly western cultures) and if you end up having trust issues, you can always get a DNA test.

[MissyM]

In fairness, I suppose I don't really see the need for any kind of label.

 

If you love someone and care about them, why would you need to give them a label? Unless it was a religious belief, it doesn't really matter whether someone is a virgin does it?

[Papillion]

Apologies in advance for the rather crude and blunt post, but there's no other way of answering the question.

 

My off-the-cuff answer is that a woman remains a virgin until she has had a penis inserted into her vagina, and that a man remains a virgin until he has inserted his penis into a womans vagina.

 

But then i thought, what if the woman has a penis inserted into her backdoor? And what about the guy who inserts his penis into the backdoor of either a man or woman? Are they still virgins? I guess not.

 

So i would extend my original answer to include anal.

[Papillion]

As for whether virginity can be lost by burglary - i would say unfortunately yes.

 

Rape is a terrible thing, but by my reckoning you would still have lost your virginity even if consent was witheld.

[valiantv]

Because if a strict defination is not constructed then it just loses meaning, then the bar can go anywhere.

 

What bar? Why would you want it to have meaning? What exactly does being a virgin qualify you for?

 

What I'm trying to say is if you take out religion and morals then the word virgin becomes defunct, it's just an ambiguous (as we can see by this thread) word to try and describe whether or not someone has experienced sex.

 

Well, the whole religious/moral thing is important, otherwise we are really no better than animals aren't we? (I guess some people would argue the human is an advanced animal, but I'd disagree with that)

 

But you're right we must put back in religion and morals.

 

First of all religion.

 

Now there is an important need to define virgin on religious grounds because it defines what God thinks is OK. But for that, the term virgin can easily be defined by consulting an authority in your particular religion. Does God think it's OK to look at porn? Does He think it's OK to do anything sexual with a girl before marriage as long as it's not penetration? Is it OK to wear white at your wedding having given a blow-job?

 

Second of all, your own personal morals. Here I think it's far less important. Simply because it's up to you to use your moral judgement as to whether what you did is right or wrong. Before you press play on your porn video, you should not be making your decisions based on the definition of the word "virgin".

You should be deciding whether this action is right or wrong based on why it is right or wrong.

 

However, the real reason to come up with it was because it was the only way to make sure a woman wasn't pregnant.

Does this mean you regain your virginity after 9 months?

But I agree with your post really...

[Luke Skywalker]

What bar? Why would you want it to have meaning? What exactly does being a virgin qualify you for?

 

Because that's the purpose of this thread, is defining what virginity means in this modern day and age.

 

To me, the concept just means that you have had the self-discipline and better sense to save yourself for someone that you marry and really care about. It would also tie in to a concept of cleanliness because then I would know there are no STD's involved, etc....)

 

Furthermore, I think that if a virgin is a virgin because he/she saved himself/herself for someone and if their potential partner did not, then that would not seem fair since it wouldn't be a fair exchange.

 

Now there is an important need to define virgin on religious grounds because it defines what God thinks is OK. But for that, the term virgin can easily be defined by consulting an authority in your particular religion. Does God think it's OK to look at porn? Does He think it's OK to do anything sexual with a girl before marriage as long as it's not penetration? Is it OK to wear white at your wedding having given a blow-job?

 

The term seems to bear no relevace to males, but to females there is a reduction in value in the Old Testament. But sure, being a virgin or non-virgin, etc... doesn't seem to mean anything much in the big picture of things, what matters is if you are saved or not saved which is an entirely different matter. But it still goes without saying - do not have sex with someone you are not married to - I think viewing porn (in a limited occasional way being softcore photos) and masturbating is different than having illicit sex with another person - and a better option of relieving sexual tension than actually going all the way. Semen builds up every 48 hours and needs to be released.

 

Of course there is more than one commandment. If for example, one killed someone and then think that's ok because one never stole anything in my life then that wont wash, there are many different types of sins, not just one binary sin. I never think I said that.