Just friends or more??

[PocoDiablo]

Yes. I think friendzone is my only option. I replied to her e-mail, but as a friend, not flirty or very funny, just boring. I just have to work with the situation. I'm really infatuated with her, and would be happy just to be around her even as friends - it's better than nothing!

Noooooooooooooooo!

 

This is a common mistake that I see guys making. There are SO many things you are not paying attention to when you say this. It *IS* worse than nothing, because being friends with a woman with whom you have a crush on will guarantee that you will get nothing from her AND nothing from any other woman. I tell you, this is a pet peeve of mine because you're not thinking about the BIG PICTURE.

 

If you hang out with her, you know you like her, and she does too. You will always want more. She KNOWS this, she's not stupid! She will shun you, she will treat you differently than a true friend. She will NOT treat you openly. She knows you are trying to manipulate her - trick her - into a relationship at some point. Your ability to learn how to be with women will be stunted because she will most likely NEVER reciprocate the feelings. thereforeeee, everything you do to try to win her over will fail. You will, of course, assosciate this failure with you being a bad person or stupid or whatever when in fact it's FALSE. Your failure to win her over is simply because you are spending time with a woman who does not like you. This reinforcement of bad behaviors is what will drive you underground with your poor social skills. You will never learn how to meet and talk to new women, you will likely never go on a date with a different woman, and you will likely never even notice other women who ARE interested in you. If you do, it'l be years or decades later. The goal here is to get you INTO the social scene, INTO meeting women who ARE into you, not into some dead end for the next 10 years. (Trust me, I did what you are talking about for TEN years with Becky until I finally got a clue.) She will NEVER like you the way you want, and you will NEVER form a relationship with her. Your social skills WILL suffer for as long as you try to make something work with her, that I can promise.

 

In essense, being friends with her will create your own self-imposed prison. "Golden handcuffs" is what it's called. You're so blindy infatuated that you think that it's wonderful because of silly reason, when in fact you're in "jail" just like everyone else with no social skills. And it's self imposed.

 

Now, from the outside, everyone else can ALSO see that you're stuck on her. And you're being a wussy guy, following her around, kissing up to her, etc. Women do not respect that, they want a mature guy, a guy who can flirt and have fun, a guy who can make decisions. They don't need some clingy puppy-dog like guy who is always underfoot. They don't want to have to worry about hurting your feelings when they go out with some other guy, or having to not say the wrong thing in front of you. They don't want to have to feel pity for you because you're forcing them to be nice to you.

 

Worse, other women who MAY have been interested in you will quickly see that you're not an independent guy, you don't have self-confidence, and you are not a challenge. You're a clingy stalker-like guy, and you're stuck on this girl. What chance do they have? None. In addition, even if other women did like you, it's ovbious you're too blind to reciprocate to them any feelings. So, again, you have created your own prison. And, by the very nature of not talking to and meeting other women, your social skills suffer even more. The confidence you have gained her over the past few days will die a slow death, and you'll be back to the child-like self you were.

 

And you'll likely NEVER get a quality girlfriend because you are not striving to be a quality man! You MUST learn how to become social, become a good partner, be the mature guy women are looking for.

 

The whole point of this is to point out that you MUST stop being a child. You are clinging to this woman like she is your mother. You are the child. She is the mother. You don't want to lose her. See how that works? Look, we were all children at some point, but the only way to become an adult is to learn your lessons and move on. The reason why you have a hard time with women is because no one taught you how to take your lumps and try again - with someone else!

 

At some point you have to understand that women want the guy who takes charge of things. Makes decisions. Knows when things are over. Doesn't delude himself. You're lying to yourself and women don't go for that.

 

So, learn your lessons, and go try again. You've seen link removed, right? As much as I don't ever encourage guys to date online, you could start there by emailing some women and trying to be confident and funny, and strike up some coversations with one goal in mind - to get their phone number and go on a date.

 

What do you think? Good plan? You've got to start sometime!

[shyandconfused]

Really i've learned a lot over the last weeks about women, how to be flirty and funny etc. I feel that being friends with this girl may at least open some doors and maybe i might even meet some of her friends, if nothing happens between us. She hasn't answered me yet. I ended the last e-mail with

 

"There's a concert on in ******** on

**st March but i'm not sure if that will weekend will suit. But if

there's anything else on... ?"

 

I know it's not the right way to ask someone (with the "dot dot dot"), but i'm hoping she'll take the hint and ask me down to her place. I know it's not right to give her all the "power" but...

 

But anyway even if it doesn't work out, i still think i've got some extra skills for future reference.

[PocoDiablo]

First I must say thank you for your thoughtful posts and time that you put into these reflections, it really makes me think and gain a better perspective on my own life.

 

I must ask, if a guy makes a very bad blemish on a friendship by inappropriately choosing the wrong time and the wrong modus-operandi to try and push the friendship into more, is there hope to repair the friendship and then hope ever for the friendship to become more some time in the future?

In my opinion, no.

 

Just like you trust your friend until you catch them stealing money from your wallet, women test a man to see if he's a gentleman. As soon as you prove you're not, they're done with you.

 

Let me explain, friends with a girl for many months

Stop right there. This is a common mistake guys make. The more time that passes without going on a date, the less likely you will succeed. You, as a man, MUST make your intentions clear.

 

You basically must get to know a woman briefly, and then ask her on a date! Period! You make you intentions clear. If she does not want to go on a date with you, move on! If you stick around with her, other single women will assume you like her and won't show signs of interest. Just like if you saw a girl with some guy you'd assume they were together ...

 

Get it?

 

she ignored any kinds of overtures to more closeness and made it clear that she just wanted friendship

What more do you need to know? You've been friendzoned because you did not show her your mature side, your sexual side, your male side. You didn't act like every other guy who asks her on a date so she thinks you're child-like. Most women want to be swept off their feet by a romantic man, and if you didn't start out like that ... you've proven to her you're not that guy. She's still looking - elsewhere.

 

but it is an every day email and many visit type of friendship.

Friendzoned. Email and phone = friends.

 

I am in love.

You're lonely and desperate which is why she won't give you more. You need to be independent and strong, you're clingy and weak. How is that an attractive male?

 

I made an email suggestion that I wanted more (I know, bad to do over email).

Oops. Yeah, really bad move.

 

This is bad because (1) you did it over email and (2) you TOLD her you wanted more. How un-romantic. If you want more, you do it by asking a woman on a date. "Date" says "I want to get to know you better and maybe romantically." Emailing that says "I've got no social skills, no confidence, and I need a swift kick in the teeth." And that's just what you got, wasn't it? Yeah, don't do that again!

 

She got very upset and took it badly. Is there any hope for me to go back to the friendship we had, and she basically angrily said to me in a talk the next day , that she would "never" get into a romantic relationship with me, so I guess my hopes that this could ever get romantic would be foolish, even if I changed?

She's made it clear time and time again, and until you dump her you'll never learn how to be with women.

 

I know I did it all wrong, should have been more flirty and jokey

Correct

 

and never pushed the romance concept until very sure

DEAD WRONG. This is your mistake. By NOT showing the romance concept, you told her you were not interested in her. This is why you MUST ask her on a date. (See my signature!) By not asking her on a date you friendzoned yourself! I bet you didn't know that. Look, most guys ask a woman on a date. That's how it works. If you don't do that, then you're telling her "You're too ugly, to dumb, too fat for me. Or maybe I am gay." None of those are good things, but asking a woman on a date says "You're attractive and I like you" without saying it. And she expects it - from the start - not 6 months down the line.

 

but I have screwed it up, and it would hurt me bad to leave and look for another girl

You're being very foolish here. This is like learning to ride a bike. Until you fall down and learn your lesson, you will never learn to ride that bike. And consider her a tricycle, really. Your first attempt at anything with wheels. You need to grow up, learn to ride a bike, then a mountain bike, then a motorcycle ... like an adult guy. By NOT moving on you are hurting yourself MUCH worse, I can promise you that.

 

(I am so into this girl I probably come accross to her as being obsessed).

Ohhhh yeah that's bad. That's the #1 way to drive a woman away - smother her.

 

Maybe if I change and get some more game things could come together for us in the future? or is it screwed up so bad there is no hope ever?

With all due respect, and please don't take this personally, but if I were standing next to you I would smack you upside the back of your head and say "Dude, she TOLD YOU that she is not interested. What more do you need to know?" I would literally grab you and drag you away from her and force you to walk up to some random woman and say Hi. I would force you to meet more women. I would tell you I never wanted to hear you talk about this girl again, and I never wanted you to talk to her again.

 

I guess staying single and alot of self reflection might be in order. My confidence is shot.

Here's your assignment for the weekend:

 

1. Go to the store - any store, the mall, I don't care. When you see an attractive woman, stand up straight, hold your head up, look her in the eye and as you get closer just say Hi. Use a voice that is loud enough that she can hear. Make your voice deep. Speak slowly. That's it. Nothing else. No big goofy smile, no hand motions, no sound effects, no jokes, no talking about the weather. nothing. Calm, cool, collected. Then see what happens. Does she say hi back? Does she ignore you? Just start keeping track. If a woman does stop to talk to you, tell her that you noticed something about her. She'll ask what. Don't tell her. Instead, tell her "You mean you don't know? Come on! Guess." Make fun of her guesses in a nice way, joke with her a little. Tell her that you're just out meeting new people. When you blow it - because you will - admit that you are just working meeting strangers. Ask her if she knows any place cool to meet people around here, or good clubs or if there are any parties she knows of. You'd be amazed what folks will tell you.

 

2. If you see a girl from afar, look at her as you approach. KEEP looking at her, do not break contact with her. Even if she looks down, I still want you to say hi. Don't smile, just say hi. Don't look or act like some stalker, though, be cool!

 

3. Dress nicely. Don't look like you just woke up or like you just busted out of jail. Be clean. Brush your teeth, comb your hair, all that stuff.

 

When you get done, you come back here and tell us how many women you met, how many were cool, how many were rude, who was interested in you, and who you got phone numbers from. Remember, only ask for a phone number if you have chemistry.

 

Don't make me come out there and drag you to Safeway! I will!

[PocoDiablo]

Really i've learned a lot over the last weeks about women, how to be flirty and funny etc. I feel that being friends with this girl may at least open some doors and maybe i might even meet some of her friends, if nothing happens between us.

That's the only reason why you should be friends. AND you should TELL her that is why you want to hang out. Be VERY clear about it - make your intentions CLEAR. "Yeah, I'd love to hang out. Hey, do you have any single friends? You need to hook me up with someone so I can see if they are cool. Any parties maybe where there are going to be lots of new people?"

 

She hasn't answered me yet. I ended the last e-mail with

 

"There's a concert on in ******** on

**st March but i'm not sure if that will weekend will suit. But if

there's anything else on... ?"

 

I know it's not the right way to ask someone (with the "dot dot dot"), but i'm hoping she'll take the hint and ask me down to her place.

You did not make your intentions clear.

 

I know it's not right to give her all the "power" but...

But what? You want a hint from me, since you did the ... thing? Okay, look, you told us you KNOW it was not the right thing to do. Now next time DO THE RIGHT THING. You'd be amazed at the results you get.

 

You should have said "But next time you're free I'll come down and we can go out to some trendy place and meet some new people." Boom. Simple. You just said you want to come down to meet someone ELSE. If anything, you can go out, check out women together, and get her opinion. You could go to a Starbucks and sit and watch people come in. You could say "Hey, she's cute. What do you think of her?" Get her opinion. If you both agree, walk over to the woman and say "Hey, my friend and I (point to her) have a bet about you. Would you mind telling me what you do for a living? We've guessed your either an office manager or a registered nurse." Get the answer, say thanks and maybe "Oh, that's what I thought!" or "No way, don't give me that line. What do you REALLY do?" and then go back and sit down or make some more small talk. Be confident, hold your head up, look her in the eyes, and speak clearly and slowly. End it after 30 seconds to a minute.

 

But anyway even if it doesn't work out, i still think i've got some extra skills for future reference.

Yes, that's the point. Learn from mistakes.

 

So, what are you doing this weekend? Huh? If SHE gave you her number, call her and set something up to go people watching.

[monsieur]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies Poco, your generous thoughtfulness will come back to you I am sure.

 

I appreciate the assignment, I think I will wait a week or two and maybe try a less daring version of the assignment, I need to get over the emotional stress of this whole thing, just yesterday I was looking at a friendship card she had given me and embarrassing as it is to say I let my emotions get the better of me and tears were streaming, so I guess you can say I am pretty messed up with my lot in life.

 

Thanks again.

 

I am EXACTLY in the same boat as the other guy, where it feels like being friends with her with no chance at anything more yet me being totally head over heels in love with her still feels better than not being around her at all. Emotions suck, knowledge of self limitations sucks, life sucks.

[ShySoul]

To all guys who think being friends with someone is a bad thing and that it will never get you anywhere:

 

I was friends with one girl. Just friends, no more. I started liking her. But for various reasons, couldn't pursue it. We stuck to being friends. She liked that. That I was patient and didn't try anything made her respect and like me more. I patiently let her deal with a situation that had come up involving an ex. In giving her time, trusting her, and showing that are friendship meant everything to be, that increased by chances. She wanted the guy who was there as a friend. So being friends was the best thing I could have done.

 

A few months down the road, another girl and I ended up liking each other. But for various reasons we had to keep it as friends. And she respected and liked that about me. Eventually, that lead to more. So again, being nice and being friends doesn't leave you trapped. It can just as often lead you right into the arms of love.

 

There are no self limitations except for the ones we place upon ourselves. Perception shapes reality. If you believe that being friends with someone dooms any chance of a relationship, you will find ways to make sure that happens. But if you believe that being friends is the way to go (not to get with her but simply because you want to be friends), then you will come off as sincere and genuine (because you are). And that is something that is likely to attract a lady. Should it not work out, it has nothing to do with being friends. It is a matter of not being compatible. It is not your fault. It is simply not meant to be.

 

Do not ask a women to set you up with friends. For one, she may get the impression that you are using her to get to other women. That tells her that you don't really value her friendship and there is a good chance that even if she did know someone, she wouldn't tell you because you hurt her feelings. If she did like you at all, it is basically tearing at her heart. Just recently I heard from a women who had this happen to her. He had been flirting with her and she had gotten interested, though was too shy to say anything. He then goes and mentions another girl, leaving her to cry in hurt. Is that what you want to take the risk of doing to someone that you were just interested in dating?

 

You do not expect that a friend will set you up for someone. The only thing that you expect is that she is a friend. If you are intending to use her to get to other women, that is wrong. Be her friend. Should she decide on her own to introduce you to someone, then go ahead. But do not expect it.

 

friendships and relationships are not about power. It is about love. It is about concern and compassion for one another. It is about honesty and trust. It is about having fun. If you are always concerned with who has the power, then you won't be able to fully enjoy the friendship or relationship you have. It will always be a constant tug of war and struggle. And it will just cause you more worry and stress, always having to meticulously plan out what you are going to do or say in order to maximize your power. Forget all of that and just enjoy what you have. Have fun.

 

If a guy asks a girl out, pushes for more, and it doesn't work... that does not doom the friendship. The only way it dooms the friendship is if he comes off sleezy or insensitive to her feelings. If he is thinking more about himself and his feelings, about getting what he wants and having control and power.... yes that is likely to end the relationship. She won't be able to trust you anymore. But if you are nice and polite about it, making sure she knows that above all else you value and want to maintain the friendship, then the friendship can endure.

 

Let me explain, friends with a girl for many months

 

That was perfect. You took your time to get to know her, just be her friend and see what was there. What cause it to not work was not being compatible, it had nothing to do with how long you waited.

 

And what's with the dual standard? You have to ask her out immediately, but then play hard to get and wait to call her?

 

Most women want to be swept off their feet by a romantic man, and if you didn't start out like that ... you've proven to her you're not that guy.

 

They do. And the most romantic thing you can do is be a friend, listen to her, and be there for her. The fact that I was always there to help and comfort her would be considered not manly, childish. And yet, its one of the things that made her fall for me.

 

Friendzoned. Email and phone = friends.

 

We communicated by email, chats, and phone mostly. And it was much more then friendship. Actually, its been like this for both girls. So those things don't necessarily means just friends.

 

She got very upset and took it badly.

 

Why do you assume it is what you did? Maybe this has nothing to do with you and is about her own fears and issues? Maybe she has been hurt in the past and is reluctant to start anything with anyone? Maybe she panics at the thought of a relationship? Maybe she fears opening up and leaving herself vulnerable? Maybe the hurt she has felt has left her messed up inside to the point that she feels the need to lash out at other people even through they don't deserve it? Hey, maybe she even does like you somewhat, but for various reasons can't admit to it.

 

But it doesn't mean you messed up on everything that you did. To assume that its all your fault is just being unnecessarily hard on yourself and is likely to just cause you more hurt and more problems in the future.

 

Realize it wasn't meant to be. Take some time to yourself. When you meet someone else eventually, don't think about what do to or techniques to follow. Just be you and things will go fine.

 

And now, I'm off to think about the way my baby sounds when she says she loves me....

[monsieur]

Are you really only 23 years old? Most people twice your age aren't nearly as wise. Very thoughtful post and made me reflect and learn... thank you.

[ShySoul]

monsieur,

 

I'm 23 in years, but 53 in spirit. Or at least thats what my friends say.

 

You're welcome. I hope things go well for you.