Update on the no-kiss guy... more help needed, please!

[smittenkitten]

I decided to start a new topic because I have more questions about the no-kiss guy. This is long, so I apologize in advance!

 

He finally kissed me a few days ago & it was great. He seemed attracted to me, based on certain ‘evidence’ that was apparent when we kissed.

 

However, we went out last night, and when the date was over he jumped out of his car (I’d met him at his house), said goodnight, and went in. Didn’t walk me to my car, hug me, or (needless to say), even kiss me.

 

I just don’t know what to make of this. There are several things going on which I’d like some feedback on, as I’m sure they have a lot to do with the situation.

 

The biggest thing is his ex-girlfriend. They broke up 5 ½ months ago, and although he says he’s over her, he talks about her a LOT. It was OK at first, but now I’m feeling insecure and a little jealous. He’s told me how bad their relationship was, and how glad he is that he’s out of it now, but he also tells me how beautiful she was and how he fell in love with her the minute he saw her, and she was everything he ever thought he wanted. They fell in love right away, moved in together after a month, and a few weeks after that he started noticing that things weren’t quite right with this girl. It turned out that she’s an addict/alcoholic (he’s in recovery); she would lie to him, frequently break up with him, move out (or just not come home) & not contact him for days, then she’d call needing him to come rescue her from whatever trouble she’d gotten into. She tried to get sober but couldn’t do it… she went into a mental hospital & was diagnosed with bipolar disorder & multiple personalities… stayed off drugs for a while but ended up selling her (prescribed) medications for street drugs. She told her therapist he drank & beat her (neither is true), took out a restraining order on him, & tried to get him kicked out of his apartment (his name was on the lease, not hers) so she could live there with another guy.

 

Fun girl, huh?

 

So he finally got out of it and moved to my town to start over. And, like I said, he says he’s over her. But the way he talks about them getting together… how they just “fell in love”, and it was so romantic, blah blah blah… I keep thinking that if he felt that way about me, he wouldn’t be holding back so much. (Ie, not only would he be kissing me all the time, but I wouldn’t be able to get him out of my bed or my house!!!) He admits that the relationship damaged him and he’s scared to get involved again, and he said he’d like to have a healthy relationship this time.

 

He also talks about his ex-wife, and I know he doesn’t want to get back together with her, but again, he talks about how pretty she was, and how great their relationship was before he screwed it up by drinking. He says that if he hadn’t screwed things up they’d probably still be married, because he believes marriage should be forever. However, he also talks about how much she’s changed (she’s drinking now, and he’s been sober for 5 ½ years), and how she’s a different person, and he just doesn’t like who she’s become.

 

He says he still loves both of them and always will, not romantically but the way you do when someone has been significant to you. I get that, but it makes me feel insecure to hear him say it. I feel like I’ll somehow never measure up to these 2 women or be as important to him as they were. I know I don’t measure up to them physically (I’ve seen pics; the crazy girl was “model-hot”, in his words). I’m cute but average, and way more on the “soft” side than these women! He says it doesn’t matter, he’s learned (thanks to Crazy Girl) that looks aren’t everything, and that he’s very attracted to me.

 

And I could handle all this, I really could, if he was telling me I was pretty & if he was kissing me & making me feel like he’s into me. I want to be someone he can tell anything to, and he’s told me that it’s so great he can talk about anything & everything with me and not have to edit what he says. But I’m not hearing what I need to hear from him about me, and it makes me wonder if I’m “just a friend”.

 

The other night when we kissed, he said he didn’t want to rush into anything, he’s not ready to make a commitment, he wants to make sure he’s doing the right thing. He said he wants to make sure he’s not just “rushing into the first thing that comes along” after his breakup; ie, he wants to be able to date other people & be sure. And that’s fine with me; I’ve read “Mars & Venus on a Date” (thank you John Gray!), and he’s clearly in the “Uncertainty” stage. Which is fine. I don’t need a commitment from him right now. I don’t think it’s necessary to make a commitment until I’m sleeping with a guy, and I told him that. I’m all for going slow & getting to know each other & waiting to have sex until I’m sure it’s with the right person.

 

But what is he doing?!?! If he’s feeling the same way I’m feeling (I feel like I’m falling in love with him, and sometimes I think he might be falling in love with me, too, because the energy is there), then he’s putting the brakes on way, WAY too much!!! I’d much rather “go with the flow” and follow the energy of this thing & see where it takes us. It hurts not to be able to touch him. It goes against my instincts.

 

I have a couple of girlfriends who are avid followers of “The Rules”, and they are strongly encouraging me to back off. Not take his calls for a few days, turn him down for a couple of dates, shake him up a bit and give him the space to realize he misses me. That he might be too complacent right now & he needs a wake up call to realize what his feelings for me are. We’re supposed to go to First Night tomorrow with all of our kids (his 2 & my 2). I think it’s a good sign that he wants me to meet his kids (he’s already met mine), but I’m wondering if I should tell him I can’t go, and just be out of reach all weekend.

 

He called me this morning. I haven’t called him back yet because I’m not sure what I should do. He still calls me every day, asks me out, and talks about things he’d like to do with me ‘sometime’ (“we should go to this restaurant sometime”, “we should go see this guy in concert sometime”, “I’d like to take you to such-and-such a place, show you this, do that, etc…”

 

If any of you have any insights/opinions on this, they would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

[ShySoul]

Sigh... you've got yourself mixed up in a tough one here.

 

He's had two relationships that have really warped his mind. The last one especially. It may seem like 5 months would be enough time, but from the sound of her, it will take a lot longer for him to be ready for something serious. She essentially used and manipulated him, made out like she would give him everything he needs, built up his heart, then ripped it apart again and again. Logically he shouldn't like her. He should realize she is crazy and that he needs to forget her. But the heart doesn't speak logically like that. And there is no telling how long it will take for him to get over it.

 

Don't feel like you can't measure up to these women. I don't know you personally, but you would be hard pressed to NOT be better then these women. They both sound very mixed up while you sound pretty much together. As far as looks, everyone is beautiful in their own way. I am sure he finds you beautiful, just as beautiful as the other women and probably lots more.

 

Don't follow these rules. They are games. You pulling away to make him more interested in you. You probably wouldn't do that if a guy did it to you, would make you feel like you is trying to manipulate and toy with your feelings. It's actually similar to what he is doing to you that you don't like. He kissed you. Then he pulled back and just left, no kiss or even hug. Didn't make you feel so good, did it? Made you question things more. Odds are he will do the same. It will make him feel worse and him to question if you are there for him. Maybe he'll think you are doing what they other girl did. Maybe he'll blame himself and start thinking he doesn't deserve you.

 

Talk to him. Explain everything you explained to us. Tell him that you like him and that you want to be with him. Tell him that you don't want to pressure him and you understand if he's been hurt, but that you need more and that you aren't feeling it. Tell him that you don't like to hear about how great other girls are, that you need to hear how great you are. Tell him that as long as he remains fixated on the past, he can never go forward, even though there is a great girl right here who wouldn't hurt him and honestly loves him. Get it all out, for both of your sakes.

 

He needs to show more commitment to making this work. He needs to show that he cares and loves you more. And you have the right to ask. Just do it in a firm, but understanding way.

[smittenkitten]

Thank you, Shy Soul, that makes a lot of sense. I haven't wanted to say anything to him because I don't want to make him feel pressured, and I don't want to assume he's feeling things for me that he might not be feeling. And I want to be there for him, I really do. I get the sense that he really needs to know that there's a woman who trusts & respects & accepts him as he is, who won't get jealous or needy or crazy & make demands on him to change. Then again, I don't want to become his mother or his therapist, either. I want to be emotionally supportive, but not in a way that undermines whatever romantic feelings he might have for me. Does that make sense? I've heard (actually, from the my Rules friends) that being too emotionally available to a man can turn him off & make him think of you as just a friend. But I'm naturally a very loving & compassionate person. I love that he feels safe with me.

 

I know I can handle this, if I can get a sense of what's really going on (ie, whether we're friends or lovers). I'm strong enough & healthy enough to deal with stuff; I'm patient & understanding. Right now though, I'm just not sure of what's going on, and I don't particularly want to get hurt, either!

[Jut]

I think talking about his ex means that he is carrying old baggage into the new raltionhship. ANd this is something that is keeping him from moving on. If you want to stay with this guy then you should subtly drop a hint that its better to move on and you would prefer not to talk about her since u know it hurts him. Along with that both of you need to do stuff together. Go on a little drive to a nearby town to see stuff...ask him to hang out with you for a movie and a dinner. GO to a bar or a club together. Dance with him and make him feel wanted.

But all these things after you drop the hint. You dont want to keep following a guy who is carrying old baggage with him and end up being his rebound. Lots of people need a rebound and lots of times they dont realize that this person they are using is actually a person worth being with and its better to invest in this relationship rather than whine about the water that ran under the bridge 6 months ago.

[ShySoul]

It's interesting. I see so many comments about not wanting to be a person's therapist, that I'm starting to think people are hung up on that concept and are so focused on needing to create emotional distance in some way, that it causes them to lose sight of how important that emotional connection is. Not necessarily with you smitten, but I've seen that in other cases.

 

I may be different then some guys, but I find that when a girl is supportive and understanding of me, that raises my interest in them. I can think of three girls right off the bat who I took more of an interest in once I realized that I could trust them and talk to them about my feelings. As a shy guy who doesn't open up much, knowing I could talk to them about personal made me trust them and start to look at them differently.

 

At the same time though, if him working out his things is just bringing you down or causing you to feel lonely or sad or something, its not good either. There's nothing wrong with being supportive or helping people work out there problems, as long as its a two way street. You need to feel that he would do the same for you. He needs to know how you feel, otherwise you'll probably end up getting hurt, and he may be so wrapped up in his own problems (as mixed up as they are) that he doesn't see it.

[smittenkitten]

Oh for Pete's sake. I went out with him tonight with every intention of bringing this up in a nice, normal, non-psychotic way. And what did I do? (No, I wasn't psychotic!) I talked about working in the swamp in Florida, catching & sexing crayfish, and about these gross black amphibians (Amphiumas... ICK!) that used to get stuck in our traps. (I was an assistant on a crayfish research project. Don't ask me what the point of it was, I have absolutely NO clue!)

 

I'm such a dork! When it was time for me to go (2:30 am, after he said he was tired), I was like, "Well, umm, there's something I wanted to talk to you about butwecantalkaboutitlaterOK?" And he told me to go ahead if I wanted, but I said no, it wasn't urgent.

 

(Aaaagh!!!)

 

Anyway, it was yet another great date. We went to a pub/restaurant that my long-ago ex boyfriend (my first true love & worst heartbreak) & his brother (my first kiss... yes, I live in a small town, but no, not EVERYONE has the same last name!) own. There was a great live band. We talked a LOT (as usual), and drove around and talked a lot more after the place closed (again, as usual).

 

We are so freakin' compatible... BUT... he didn't kiss me, AGAIN! This is now our 8th date. The one and only time he kissed me was on date 6. What the heck?!?! I would seriously assume that we're just friends, but he ACTS like these are real dates.

 

We were talking in his car right before I left, and I mentioned Joe (my long-ago ex), who had come over and chatted with us during the evening. My darling confusing guy said Joe seemed like a really nice guy, and I said "Yeah, I pick good men." To which my darling confusing guy replied, "Yes, you do", while laying his hand (BRIEFLY!) on my knee. Then he added, "Or maybe they pick you".

 

Doesn't that sound like more than a "just-friends" thing to say? Geez Louise! I'm so confused!!!

 

Is it possible that he's too insecure to kiss me again, even though he did it before? Do guys get like that? Like, maybe he's waiting for me to make a move on him this time?

 

I don't get it. I'm gonna start shopping for a habit soon if this keeps up. I'm feeling a strong urge to join a convent!!!

 

(I know, I know. I just have to suck it up and ASK him about it! But YIKES! It's so scary!!!)

[smittenkitten]

Shy Soul- It's good to hear your feedback about the "therapist" thing. I actually believe that fewer people would need therapy if they had a really close friend to talk to about things. (I'm not saying therapy is unnecessary, heaven knows I've been an avid consumer, and I've gotten a lot out of it!) But in general, true friendship can heal a lot of wounds.

 

Anyway, I don't have a problem with being emotionally supportive. I love it. I'm wired that way- it comes very naturally to me. And I love that he talks to me about everything; I don't want to shut that down or make him feel like he has to watch what he says with me. I guess I just need to share my feelings with him, and hopefully get some reassurance that he actually likes me as much as (hopefully more than!) his exes.

 

And he definitely reciprocates. He listens to me very intently when I talk, and he's told me he wants to know everything about me, that he wants to see the "real" me. It's very, very easy to talk to him. We've talked about everything; dreams, goals, god, family, relationships, sex, ethics, values, etc... and now crayfish, of course! It's really, really good.

 

 

[ShySoul]

smittenkitten,

 

I think you are someone I could get along with well if we knew each other in person. Good heart, funny, and upbeat. Don't change.

 

My dad would probably love to hear your crayfish stories. He's a seafood nut. Me, not at all. lol

 

This guy is confusing me as well. He's sending out so many mixed signals its no wonder you feel like joining that convent. Sounds like he things of it as dates and more, but he can't bring himself to actually get to the physical aspects. I would think that after you kiss once, it would be something you wouldn't want to stop. I mean, I was terrified of breaking that barrier. But once I did I felt like kissing every chance I could.

 

Yes, you do need to talk to him. It's alright that you panicked, its ok if you do it again. It takes time. Just keep trying and eventually you will get it out.

 

I agree, friendship is the best therapy. I can't stand the idea of going to a therapist myself, but knowing that I have a couple people who I can talk to about anything cheers me up and helps more then words can say.

 

It sounds like this has great potential, if he can just get over the past and learn to open his heart more to you, letting you know just how much you mean to him. We all need that reassurance, and I hope he starts giving it to you soon.

[smittenkitten]

Shy Soul! Thanks so much for replying. I've been obsessively checking the boards to see if anyone answered me yet. I'm so happy you did!

 

I love your posts! I think we'd get along great, too. You knock me out- you have so much wisdom, and you're so YOUNG!!! (I hope that doesn't sound pretentious- it's just... usually I think of 22 year old guys as a mixed-up ball of hormones & beer! I clearly have to rethink my assumptions!)

 

He's being a little weird today. I talked to him at 5pm, and he said he was going to get his kids dinner & call me back to talk about tonight. It's now 8pm & I haven't heard from him- this isn't like him at all!

 

Yeesh. It looks like my New Year's Eve will be spent on the computer... oh well!

[smittenkitten]

OK, he just called me.

 

Eeek. I'm going to email him about this stuff & then we're going to talk when I see him. I wrote it all out earlier just to get myself clear about what I want to say, but it's pretty good, so I figure maybe it's best if he just reads it first. That way I won't forget anything important that I want to say (plus I won't wuss out!), and he can think about it a little before I see him. I don't want to do an "emotional ambush" on him!

 

Oh my gosh. Wish me luck- PLEASE!!! I've got butterflies in my stomach just thinking about it.

 

Gulp!

[smittenkitten]

Yikes. I did it! I just sent the email.

 

Oh my gosh, I'm so nervous!

[ShySoul]

SmittenKitten!

 

Aw shucks, I'm no more wiser then this next guy. Really, anyone could give good advise or say what I say, we are all smart enough. Thing is I don't think most people believe that about themselves. So must guys are hormones and beer at 22. And for some of them, they are still at that stage years later.

 

You know, I really should learn to accept a compliment without blushing, feeling shy, or trying to gloss over it. Think I'll make it my New Years resolution.

 

Good job writing the letter and sending it (nervewracking though it was). Sending a letter like that is sometimes a good idea when you have a lot you want to say but are afraid or nervous about saying it. I did that a few months ago with a girl I liked. Every time I would try to say what I wanted to her it would either come out wrong, I'd back away, leave something out, end up arguing, or basically not get anywhere. So I spent awhile to write it all out and very slowly pressed the send button. I needed to work out a lot of things with her, and that was the only way I could. To my surprise she called me up and went almost piece by piece through the letter with me. A lot of things got sorted out and we were better for it.

 

I hope something similar happens in your case. I hope you get to talking and things get worked out. I'll be on off and on tonight so maybe you will catch me. And if not, there is always tomorrow.

 

Wishing you luck (I'd be lining up my four leave clover, rabbits foot, etc.... if I had them of course ).

[smittenkitten]

Yay! It all worked out!!! (Doing the happy dance over here!)

 

He picked me up & didn't mention the email for the longest time. The good thing was, nothing was awkward or weird, so it didn't feel like something was hanging over my head. I wasn't even sure if he'd read it. We were driving around & when midnight came he leaned over & gave me a kiss, which was cool. Then a while after that he mentioned my email, and we talked about all the relationship stuff.

 

The gist of it is, he's scared spitless. And he's trying to pace himself & go really, really slowly. (He's succeeding! lol!) He doesn't know if I'm "the one" & he doesn't want to rush it, etc. etc. etc.

 

I already knew all that, so that was fine. The part I didn't know was that he has feelings for me (yay!) & that I wicked turned him on the other night. (Double yay!!) He looked at me like I was insane & was like, "What, couldn't you tell?" And I was like "Yeah, but I assumed that just happens automatically to all guys, and when you didn't kiss me after that I assumed you weren't attracted to me." So he told me that doesn't often happen to him just from kissing, and that I totally knocked him out the other night. (Yay!!!) (We're up to triple now?!?!)

 

It's wicked cute. We agreed that we're going to keep it at a high school level (the way high school was in my day anyway~ lol!), just kissing & that's it. He thought that might not be enough for me but I'm all for it- I don't want to rush this, either!

 

It's funny, too, 'cuz he told me he'd been wondering why I hadn't kissed him. Apparently he likes the girl to take the lead sometimes. Ha ha ha... he has NO idea what he's in for! Lead? Heck yeah, I can lead!!! I had to train myself not to be too forward with a guy 'cuz usually it sends 'em running for the hills.

 

Oh man, this boy's in trouble now!

 

 

[smittenkitten]

Shy Soul- hee hee... I can help you with your New Year's resolution (accepting compliments)- I think you're AWESOME!!!

 

I think your mental 4 leaf clover, rabbit's foot, etc. must have done the trick... thanks for the thoughts!

 

 

[ShySoul]

Whoo!!!!!! New Years may be over, but the party is just beginning!!!!!

 

First, thanks for the compliment (yet another one). I will graciously accept. (that's one time without getting, think I can keep it up all year?)

 

Glad it went over so well. I figured that was what was going on. Sometimes a guy needs a push to get him out of his comfort level. And given what he's gone through, its no wonder he is scared. But he did need to realize that you needed more from him in the way of reassurance, hopefully he starts giving it to you.

 

His, um, reaction the other night when kissing you.... always a good sign. And from what he said, a really good sign.

 

So you are a forward girl? Ahem.... I think he is probably going to end up being very happy with you. Just be gentle with the poor bunny rabbit.

 

Glad everything worked out. Write me sometime and fill me in on the latest gossip.

 

Merry New Year!

[smittenkitten]

Just be gentle with the poor bunny rabbit.

 

LOL! That reminds me of my all-time favorite cartoon line from the old Bugs Bunny series, I can't remember how it goes exactly but there's this big shaggy animal who gets all excited & he's hopping around going "And I'm gonna love him & kiss him & hold him & squeeze him & I'm gonna name him George!"

 

 

[ShySoul]

Lol. I remember that. That was a great line.

 

Remember Tiny Toons (the junior bugs and company), and Elmira, the goal who scared all the animals because she wanted to "hug em, and love em, and squeeze em to itty bitty pieces?"

 

Though I've always been partial to Daffy Duck myself.

[Miss M]

Well, just now I remembered that I wanted to check up on smittenkitten's no-kiss guy... and wow... Oh, this is such a great and fun thread.

 

Congratulations!

 

Happy New Year!

 

Sounds like a party! Yay!

 

I'm so very happy that to know that you two worked that out in such a good way. Good luck, best wishes, and have lots of loving fun! \\