Not supposed to be like this

[Awakening43]

Hello, this is my first post so I am sorry if I ramble - I will try to keep on point and would greatly appreciate any opinions on my situation. Thanks in advance.

 

I am in my late 30s with two kids and a wife three years my senior. We have a great home, great kids, everyone thinks it is perfect except for me.

 

After our first child, things started to go south. My wife (perhaps understandably) became all about the baby. Instead of sleeping with me, she'd sleep with the baby. Instead of dates with me, she'd take the baby and show him off to her friends. Instead of discussions with me about fun things, everything was all about the baby. This lasted well beyond what I would imagine normal time - about 3 years.

 

My wife approached me for a second child. I said no, our relationship was too far off to try that. But she persisted, pointing out that her age was a factor on the health of the next baby if we wait too long. We made a deal - if I gave her the second boy, we would eliminate all the baby-centric focus this time around, work on our life together a bit more, she'd work on losing her baby weight, etc. I am overly trusting and apparently pretty naive so in my mind, case was settled, everyone wins. We had our second son.

 

Very little of our agreement from her end came to life. She ignored her weight issues, she continued sleeping with the boys (oldest is 6 at this point), and at this point was rejecting me constantly for sex. I long since stopped initiating years ago and would only have routine sex focused mainly on her when she would approach, which was about 1-2 times per month.

 

Now, long story short, I would later find out that because of my past as an abused child - much of which I blotted out - I had become entirely co-dependent on her and enabled much of her behavior to me. (This is what I learned when I checked in for counseling.) In other words, this is a 50/50 thing, I do not blame her.

 

I got a dose of self esteem and lost a lot of weight. What a wonderful feeling this was. I begged my wife, who was now approx. 100 pounds overweight, to join me. She found infinite excuses not to join me on this healthy journey.

 

I asked her to go to MC with me. She accepted and we have learned a bit about each other. She is a workaholic, and my counselor believes she is emotionally unavailable and/or depressed. Who knows, I guess, and lord knows I have my issues too. It is like I am an ocean of thoughts and feelings, and she is comfortable to be a shallow pool in this area - so hard to connect - and in my counselor's words, very opposite from most male/female relationships.

 

We do everything separate since I can't convince her of the importance of date nights. I noticed myself talking too deeply with other women, so I stopped going out. (I am an INFJ personality type so I tend to have deep bonding conversations with whoever I spend enough time with.) Took up an on-line activity and now think I am in an emotional affair. Enough is enough, I thought, and I asked for a separation. This was not healthy for either of us and I do not want to hurt my wife.

 

She begged me to stay. She started jogging twice a week which for her is pretty much She has been trying to initiate sex more often. And now, after all these years, I finally have her at the table, so to speak... and I'm completely ambivalent. I haven't been able to get the attraction back to her, and our interests are so opposite. She wants to do volunteer work as a family, I want to lessen the workload and play soccer out back with my boy.

 

She's my best friend and I care for her deeply. It seems like the right play would be to end my EA, and just sit at home and hope she sorts out her issues so that we can get our connection back. But it's so frustrating to have needs, and the only one I can morally get these needs met with is unavailable. I don't think my needs are unreasonable. I need to want to touch my wife and feel like she wants me to touch her too. I need to feel like we can talk about something other than work or responsibilities. I need to feel safe initiating with her.

 

Argh, help, thanks for reading.

[hexaemeron]

Is this a case of "too little too late"? I mean, I'm sure the fact her motivation only manifested when you were on your way out... it didn't really come from her FOR herself, it came from losing you, and if you're not doing things for yourself, it never lasts...

[preciousgirl82]

I dont think you should give up on your marriage just yet. Im not taking sides here because you have needs as well but what she is going through is totally understandable. Everyone says, "having children changes you". She may be suffering from post-partum depression, which many women do. On top of that, marriages do tend to take a back seat when a child is born and you wind up becoming "parents" and no longer "spouses". With time and effort this should change. As the children get older you both will have more time together and she will have more time to put into her looks again. What you are going through is very common but you have to stick it out because im sure she needs your support more than ever right now. Keep initiating date nights and explain to her that in order to be great parents both of you need to have a healthy relationship as a married couple. I would recommend not having anymore children at this time and taking time to build on your marriage. Children really do begin to take top priority, as they should. Your head may turn but remember she's the one who gave you your beautiful children. You cant run because she's not the same woman you married. Things will get better.

[Cognitive_Canine]

Hello and welcome to ENA.

 

I have to admit that while reading this I did feel rather hopeful for you and your wife. Only time will tell how sincere she is about changing and whether these changes will stick. It will take time as it took time to drift apart. You really need to date and fall in love all over again.

 

Seems like you feel burned and jaded when it comes to your wife. I understand your reluctance to trust her again after this whole time of emotional unavailability.

 

However, seems that this EA is getting in the way of your true decision. How real do you think that relationship is? Do you think it might be merely fantasy on your part? Oftentimes, affairs are not something substantial and are not based in reality. If you choose to leave your wife, you should realize that the EA will almost certainly not be an option. You mentioned that you were a Co-dependent. Do you think you've switched your codependency onto this new relationship?

 

It's easy to switch out of the marriage but once you leave it will be near impossible to switch back in.

[Awakening43]

Is this a case of "too little too late"? I mean, I'm sure the fact her motivation only manifested when you were on your way out... it didn't really come from her FOR herself, it came from losing you, and if you're not doing things for yourself, it never lasts...

 

I am too, she has openly told me that "I am running for you, not for me." and also went so far as to say she does not feel like she can say no to me for any reason now since the threat of leaving has arrived. I have told her I don't want this, to no avail.

 

It is pretty frustrating to know that if we have sex, I don't know if she's doing it because she wants me or if she feels obligated to. It's a horrible feeling.

[hexaemeron]

I am too, she has openly told me that "I am running for you, not for me." and also went so far as to say she does not feel like she can say no to me for any reason now since the threat of leaving has arrived. I have told her I don't want this, to no avail.

 

It is pretty frustrating to know that if we have sex, I don't know if she's doing it because she wants me or if she feels obligated to. It's a horrible feeling.

 

Well, I think from what you've wrote, you do know it's not for her. That it IS for you and not herself. And here's what will likely happen. She'll do fine for awhile, but doing things she doesn't want to do will eventually make her resent you and then she'll start putting weird expectations on you because "LOOK WHAT I DID FOR YOU!!!!!!"

 

I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

[SongCoyote]

From what it sounds like, the situation you're currently in has built up over several years (let alone the long-term baggage such as depression and codependency that has affected it). What that means is that there is not going to be a quick fix at all. As hard as it is, if you really want to work on the relationship (and it seems you do) you will have to be patient with both yourself and with her.

 

That said, I think you have a strong foundation to rebuild on. While you are frustrated with the situation, it sounds like you have a strong respect for your wife and a hope that you can find some of the spark that was lost over time. As someone who has spent a lot of time and energy working on their own issues of depression and codependency and has gone through periods of lost spark and eventually regained them, I know for certain that it can be done. But it's not easy or fast, and it requires that both of you be committed to the effort, and not just because one or the other of you wants it (that's codependent thought).

 

The best things I can recommend are lots and lots of communication and getting help with your issues (both of you). One of the things that breaks down in situations like yours is the ability to communicate openly and easily, and rebuilding that will make an enormous difference to both of you and to the possibility of rekindling your relationship. So stay open, be sure to speak openly, listen carefully, and seek clarity before jumping to conclusions. Also remember that you are both hurt and damaged, and you both deserve compassion, love, and care for yourselves and from each other.

 

I wish your whole family well, and hope that your relationship becomes what is best for all involved. Be well and happy, and may love guide your actions.

 

Light and laughter,

SongCoyote

[FarthestEdge]

First off- I'd like to commend you. If more people would put the effort into a struggling marriage as you are, there would be fewer divorces.

 

I agree with those who think you have a good chance of recovering from this. Yes, it took you telling her that you wanted to separate to get her attention...but at least you've got it. Over time, marriage can bring a toxic complacency that 'he'll never leave over a little thing like sex', or whatever- it's easy to dismiss and minimize your partners complaints, when you don't agree with them. Sometimes you just have to 'slap them in the face' (metaphorically speaking, of course) to get their attention.

 

So while Hex's prediction that she'll improve & do things FOR YOU until she thinks the threat is gone MAY be true, it it also possible that she IS serious about making changes.

 

The thing is, if you both tackle this challenge together, you will build MORE strength into your marriage and more incentive to KEEP working at it.

 

A happy marriage is NEVER a "mission accomplished" kind of thing...it is ALWAYS a work in progress.

 

Is it possible for the two of you to take a holiday together, without the kids? There may be a few groans from other posters when I say this (because I ALWAYS ask this question), but a good adventure together, away from all the stressors of everyday life can give you both time to reflect and time to find your desire for each other again.

 

I can see where you are tired of fighting the battle on your own. But don't give up when she's finally just joined the fight. Case in point- her weight loss. If possible- go Jogging WITH her, or get some bicycles so you can go bike riding together, take the kids & dog for a walk after dinner together.. Support her, but stop short of telling her HOW to do it. Tell her you're thrilled she's finally taking steps towards improving her health, and ask her what you can do to help.

 

Keep with the marriage counselling. As you yourself have discovered, there can be a lot of unknown reasons as to why we are, the way we are. Her emotional 'inavailability' could be something that counselling will help her work through.

 

I also agree, that it's taken a long time to get here, so it will take some time for real change to take effect. But if you WANT to want her, then there's still hope.

 

And I can tell you from personal experience, if you DO get through this with your marriage intact, you will find you appreciate all the more. Journeys like this really build on a relationship- even if it doesn't feel that way right now.

 

Take care & keep posting. There are lots of people who will bring differing perspectives to your situation, as well as it just being a great place to vent.

[Awakening43]

Seems like you feel burned and jaded when it comes to your wife. I understand your reluctance to trust her again after this whole time of emotional unavailability.

 

However, seems that this EA is getting in the way of your true decision. How real do you think that relationship is? Do you think it might be merely fantasy on your part? Oftentimes, affairs are not something substantial and are not based in reality. If you choose to leave your wife, you should realize that the EA will almost certainly not be an option. You mentioned that you were a Co-dependent. Do you think you've switched your codependency onto this new relationship?

 

I do feel exactly that way, burned and jaded. I am pretty skeptical about everything and I have begun the downward spiral of seeing the negative at home instead of the positive. I wish I could change that, it just feels like the internal energy is missing.

 

I started playing a video game at night while my wife is playing on Facebook and met a gal and we started talking and such. This probably isn't your common coworker EA since she is accross the country from me, and the likelihood of us ever meeting are pretty slim. But she is there for me, to listen, to joke around with. She makes things fun. Probably in part because we are playing a fun game. I'm not sure if this answers your question. I do understand that the likelihood of us meeting/working out is practically nil if that's what you are asking.

 

Sadly, what I have learned is I am very happy alone at this point, at least I am free from the stress and constant focus on work and responsibility. I can be a responsible guy... when my wife worries about money, I took a second job and work 7 days a week. Etc. But I work to achieve stress-free playtime and this hasn't happened with her in many years.

[Awakening43]

EA

 

One other random thing about this topic, I told my wife about this gal. She knows when I talk with her, there is no secrecy on this point.

 

In fact, when I apologized and told her about crossing into EA territory, she said "I never said you couldn't talk to her about us." and "I guess it's a good thing she doesn't live closer or it'd be even worse." And then I've not heard about it again. I would expect the "normal" response would have been much stronger and pointed than this.

[Awakening43]

Well, I think from what you've wrote, you do know it's not for her. That it IS for you and not herself. And here's what will likely happen. She'll do fine for awhile, but doing things she doesn't want to do will eventually make her resent you and then she'll start putting weird expectations on you because "LOOK WHAT I DID FOR YOU!!!!!!"

 

I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

 

She has already told me things like "I don't know how much longer I can do this" and "I will end up resenting you for all this.", so I think you are exactly right. And I don't know what to do about it, because I need to push to help us grow but she needs to want to do it for her, or at least for us.

[Shortpants]

Hello Awakening and welcome to ENA! Lots of great folks here!

 

I agree with C_C and thing that the fog of the EA is hampering your ability to successfully work on your marriage. As long as you are emotionally investing your time and energy into this other female, you are not investing it in repairing your relationship with your wife. You are so wrapped up in the fantasy of this "perfect" other woman that you have "so much in common with" that you aren't seeing the forest for the trees. Regardless of how far away this EA person is, and regardless of the fact that you will probably never meet, you are still sharing deep, intimate things that you should be sharing with your wife. So to truly try to work things out with your wife you need to go complete NC with the other person to focus only on your marriage and working things out with your wife. Anything less would be a cop out and not giving your all to save your marriage.

 

I also completely understand about feeling the possibility that the relationship is "too far gone" to save at this point. But again, you will never truly know that until you have given it 100%, BOTH you and your wife. This means councelling, both together and apart, this means making the changes in your life to make things better, this means being open and honest with each other about your wants, needs and dreams of the future. I suggest a website: link removed that has some great articles on how to save your marriage and some great articles on how to learn to communicate and how to meet your partners needs and get your needs met also.

 

Good luck sir, you sound like you really want to save things but aren't really sure if they CAN be saved. Stop with the online chatting and invest that time in your family. I wish you the best and please keep us posted.

[Awakening43]

Thank you SongCoyote, I am trying my best. My wife is holding us back since she does not believe she is depressed, she does not believe she is unavailable. She will say, "I don't know why you say you don't feel connected, since I feel very connected to you." Her IC sessions seem fruitless as she says she goes only for me, and doesn't really know what to talk to the counselor about, since she isn't depressed or unavailable.

 

I take 50/50 blame since I bring my issues to the table too, but I seem to be the only one actively working on them.

 

I will keep trying and thank you for your kind words.

[Awakening43]

Is it possible for the two of you to take a holiday together, without the kids?

 

I can see where you are tired of fighting the battle on your own. But don't give up when she's finally just joined the fight. Case in point- her weight loss. If possible- go Jogging WITH her, or get some bicycles so you can go bike riding together, take the kids & dog for a walk after dinner together.. Support her, but stop short of telling her HOW to do it. Tell her you're thrilled she's finally taking steps towards improving her health, and ask her what you can do to help.

 

Keep with the marriage counselling. As you yourself have discovered, there can be a lot of unknown reasons as to why we are, the way we are. Her emotional 'inavailability' could be something that counselling will help her work through.

 

It is odd that you mention the holiday idea. I have, since my first son's birth, begged for an overnight stay somewhere with just her. I would be repeatedly rejected. She'd say "I can't be without my boys at night." Until... one day a year ago, she asked if she could leave the boys with me for 3 days to travel to see her newborn niece. I was stunned. Somehow she couldn't leave the boys to be with me but she could for her niece. (Sorry I guess you hear the resentment bleeding through, lol.)

 

I am trying hard to support her jogging. Her suggestion was to just leave her to it, so I'm trying not to interfere.

 

I will keep trying. She is a very nice, kind woman that I care about very much even through all this, so with any luck maybe the feelings will come back.

[Awakening43]

Regardless of how far away this EA person is, and regardless of the fact that you will probably never meet, you are still sharing deep, intimate things that you should be sharing with your wife. So to truly try to work things out with your wife you need to go complete NC with the other person to focus only on your marriage and working things out with your wife. Anything less would be a cop out and not giving your all to save your marriage.

 

I know you are probably right.

 

The problem is, on its most basic level, is that I can't share any emotional deep things with my wife because she does not like or need or even follow these discussions. So it is hugely frustrating.

 

The other day, we had a discussion about her weight which was very difficult for me. (Her BMI is 41.0.) She did not understand why her weight would affect my attraction level for her. She did not understand why, in her words, I was not letting her take care of her own body. It was not until I said that, based on what I read, that in 7-10 short years, it is possible I'll be 47 or so pushing her around in a wheelchair, and that it is way too early in my life for that and def. not what I signed up for when it is very preventable, that she started to see what I was saying.

 

A few months back, I tried to spice something up by going into her long lost drawer of lingerie and picking something out and laying it on the bed. She saw it and accused me of having an affair because my affair partner left her lingerie on the bed. (?? - It was my wife's lingerie - ??)

 

Just a few examples. My wife is very intelligent but it seems like emotionally-intelligence wise she does not hear or see things. And by no means am I perfect, I have tons of flaws too.

 

So anyway, there is a real draw to talking with someone who you just sort of click with when you go through this day in and day out.

 

I know this doesn't make what you said any less important. I think I'm just venting. Sorry about that. I think the realization I had with my EA is just that cutting her out will either mean talking to someone that doesn't understand me all day or filling the void with some other distraction that doesn't focus on her either.

 

Thanks for listening, this post probably makes little sense.

[Cognitive_Canine]

Actually, cross country EAs are more common. If the person is physically there and available, it's harder to have that fantasy. But, if they are apart, you can sort of fill in the blank without reality getting in the way or it becoming *too* threatening to your morals.

[Shortpants]

Oh no Awakening, I understand all to well where you are coming from. I met my current husband in an online game.... WHILE I was still married to my ex. We were just friends (I know, I know, the ol "just friends" line LOL) but we did "click" as you say. But I will say that when things really went downhill with my marriage, I stopped talking to the other person COMPLETELY. Stopped playing the game we played together, everything. I decided I needed to focus all my energy on saving my marriage without tapping off some energy on other people.

 

It does sound like your wife has her own issues to deal with. Her weight, the lack of putting time and effort into your relationship together, etc. I do reiterate the website I mentioned in my last post, there is an "emotional needs" questionaire that can be very revealing about how males and females differ in how they rank emotional needs. They list off affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation, an attractive spouse, and more and have you rank them based on the importance to you. I suggest filling out this questionaire with your wife and see how they differ. It is quite interesting how females tend to rank things like family commitment, honestly and openness, and conversation at the top of their lists while men list affection, sexual fulfillment, and recreational companionship at the top of their lists. It boils down to different needs. While you may feel that physical affection and sexual fulfillment shows love, she may feel that family commitment and conversation shows love.

 

No problem! Vent all you like!! That's what ENA is for! You need to find that common ground with your wife again, it was there once, and make her your EA partner rather than some stranger on the other end of an internet pipeline. Don't have regrets after the dust has settled that you didn't try everything to fix things.

[Cognitive_Canine]

Your wife DOES sound extremely depressed. You mentioned postpartum depression. I would explore this more with your doctor.

 

With depression and her weight issues, she focused purely on her sons and seemed to forget about herself, including her connection with you.

[Awakening43]

That is pretty interesting about cross-country EAs being common, I never would have thought that but I admit that not chatting in person gives an air of safety about it, so you are probably right C_C.

 

I think something is wrong inside with my wife. I do not know if it is depression, but I did take her to the doctor for that. The problem with depression screening is that my wife works in the health field and she knows what the answers are already. "Do you find yourself overtired a lot?" Answer: No. Yet, she'll go to bed at 8pm and wake up at 7am and say she's still tired. I can lead her to water but I can't make her drink...

 

SP, I will check that link out. I have always found for me (yes, shocking from a guy) that I'd rather have the emotional connection than the sexual one, assuming I could only pick one. I have a feeling everything would fall into place if the walls would go down on her end. But I'm not sure how much longer I can wait. I have been pretty miserable lately.

[mustard1234]

Question...what, ideally do you *want*. What does a happy relationship look like to you?

 

When thinking of this, try not to find the negatives (eg: I want a week to pass when she doesn't XYZ). Think of what a happy, peaceful and fulfilling relationship looks like to you. This will at least give you a way to specifically put your finger on the things that can be changed.

 

Granted, changing them is a whole separate enchilada, as you know. I understand so far that your wife isn't the most emotional type. A few things:

 

-What kind of things did you guys talk about/do in the beginning? Back when skirts were short and conversations were long. Was she more open, vulnerable and communicative like you describe longing for or was that never there and other things compensated? If so, what were those things? There's a reason you guys made it to the altar, start with those inherent strengths and an approach may be to rediscover or enhance those things in your current stage of the partnership.

 

 

-Your wife is, undoubtedly, feeling under a l-o-t of pressure and scrutiny from you right now. You've been careful to announce here on ENA that you're not perfect, it's a 50/50 fight, you want to feel like *partners* here and and you're trying to be supportive of her. This is a great step. Does she know these things? I mean from your lips to her ears direct...unequivocally know them? Not that you're being judge & jury, but just imagine how much trouble you'd have trying to "connect" with someone (esp if it's not your forte as you've described to be the case for her) when they don't like your body, how you make them feel, there are undertones of resentment towards your parenting style and your partner is talking to some random person online!

 

-Not to make you feel bad or responsible for any of those things, again your approach is valid and as civil as one can be in the situation, but in your frustration please take a moment to really see how scary and disheartening and intimidating that this could possibly feel to someone. Not to be extreme, but it's like saying to someone 'Hey. Here's this costume that doesn't fit you. Wear it, right now...and suck in your belly. I'll be grading you on your pirouettes as well. WHY AREN'T YOU DANCING YET?' This is intense. I know you're hurting too.

 

-Have you spoken to your wife about what *she* wants in and from the relationship? You may try non-confrontationally just asking what would make her happy. What does she miss? Does she need something from you? What would she like to see happen between you? This focus on her needs may be welcomed as it's been a lot of what she can do to better herself for you. Again, not saying that she doesn't need to.

 

 

I'm thinking that these things, especially the last one will give you a strong gauge of two *crucial* things:

 

-Do you two both want the same things in a relationship? Are you still on the same page in terms of what the goal is? You can both be playing hard as you can but if it's not clear which endzone is the right one, major trouble can ensue.

 

-Is she motivated to work as a team? Starting 90 days after "Nice to meet you/can I get your number" NOBODY wants to bust their a*s just to please a mate. Period. Nobody. I personally don't even think she's in the wrong for letting you know her true feelings about the last-ditch changes. But on the flip side, a good marriage is about both of you going to the absolute endzone for the relationship itself. That's worth both of you spending every last bit of yourself on.

 

Clearly, I don't know the full story of your wife's background or where her head is at but my God, my God you guys sound just like my parents. Down to minor details, it's freakin' eerie. Where the roads split is you're a dedicated husband trying to make this work. Wanted to take a minute and seriously applaud you for that. It's such a rare, special and wonderful thing to see that is all-too-uncommon in many cases.

 

I hope that you two can sort this out. Glad you're on ENA. We're always here to help.

[Awakening43]

Question...what, ideally do you *want*. What does a happy relationship look like to you?

 

I want a partner that knows the value of play, someone who I have activities in common that I can share with. Someone who really makes me feel like our one-on-one time is one of the most important things to her. Something where we do not stifle but are each other's primary source of companionship.

 

What kind of things did you guys talk about/do in the beginning? Was she more open, vulnerable and communicative like you describe longing for or was that never there and other things compensated? If so, what were those things?

 

My wife was much different than when I met her. To be fair so was I. She was one of the first gals I met after getting out of a relatively LTR with a bi-polar, mentally unstable woman. Bad ending to that one; I felt very low at the time. My wife has a very nurturing, stable, comfortable personality and what a great feeling it was to be accepted again.

 

My wife, meanwhile, had just lost one of her parents to a slow death via cancer. She was much more emotional back then, both with tears and laughter. She was wild and free, a real carpe-diem sort of gal, sexually uninhibited... totally different than now.

 

-You've been careful to announce here on ENA that you're not perfect, it's a 50/50 fight, you want to feel like *partners* here and and you're trying to be supportive of her. Does she know these things?

 

I have tried my best to approach this as a partner situation. I have told her anything from 50/50 to 100% my fault (I still have bad codep. days). I tell her things I have learned from my therapy. I have really really tried to be fair. We cry together, I think we do know deep down inside we both are trying.

 

Have you spoken to your wife about what *she* wants in and from the relationship? What does she miss? Does she need something from you? What would she like to see happen between you?

 

Yes.. She wants us to be partners in the little things in life, from more work around the house, to volunteering in community service, to planning and attending more playdates with the boys. She has become *very* work oriented. Not unrelated, I think, so much so that she is already on permanent blood pressure medicine at 39. I also should point out that pre-kids, she told me my high paying job would take too much time away from the baby, so I found different employment which was much more family friendly. Fast forward a few years, and she's advanced her career to become the President of a small business (and all the extra hours and effort that comes with that.)

 

And yes, I know that this is a common want for women, and I want to say even though I focus on play, I'd like to think I work hard to play hard. I work 7 days a week some weeks because of her financial fears. I do not really think I'm a drink-beer-on-the-couch-every-night guy.

 

-Do you two both want the same things in a relationship? Are you still on the same page in terms of what the goal is? You can both be playing hard as you can but if it's not clear which endzone is the right one, major trouble can ensue.

 

No. This is our biggest problem and I can't get her to understand this. She wants to have many casual aquaintances. I want to have fewer but more meaningful relationships. Right now, things are relatively perfect for her since I'm one of her casual relationships, but I can't go deeper with her.

 

Her biggest fears are dying alone and/or getting judged after her life that she did not do enough for the world with everything she was given. (She is not religious but very spiritual.) My biggest fear is dying without having enjoyed my life. She must work non-stop to satisfy her spiritual outlook - I must break from her spiritual outlook to feel like I can enjoy my life.

 

I asked her once what she wanted with me, and she said, "I want to grow old with you." I probed deeper and asked what we would do on that journey of growing old. She didn't know. She just wants to not die alone.

 

Further troubling is that her most frequent fear about me leaving is "What will I tell my friends? Usually the woman leaves, what will they think?"

 

We have so many problems. I have given up so much (in my opinion) to keep things in our relationship running. I battle internal resentment daily. I have nothing left to give, and it seems like even strangers offer me more closeness than I get at home. But then I see her tears, and I remember this woman helped me through the lowest point in my life. I see my kids every day and I would miss that if I left. I find myself wishing that one day I would either wake up and feel all my motivation back, or find out she was sleeping around just to make this decision easier. Argh. Thanks for reading.

[hexaemeron]

Yeah, I think this is done. You're just a rag doll to her so she doesn't have to be alone. She clearly doesn't care about your happiness or contentment and the fact that she's worried what she'll tell people about you breaking up, rather than the breaking up itself... Yeah, this is done.

[mustard1234]

Now, now, Hex...c'mon.

 

This is a marriage we're talking about here, with children no less...not some co-ed dating scenario.

 

OP, the breakdown of what you want from your relationship was really interesting to read. In all honesty, and this may just be my lamen's eye....you and your wife aren't worlds apart on what you want. At least from where I'm standing.

 

From what you're saying I take it that you want this relationship to work. There's a gap, a big one from your perspective between your ideal relationship and the day-to-day with your family. Can you bullet point precisely what needs to change? I see your pain and discontent but...what *exactly* do you want different?

 

Also, are there some changes (major and minor) that either of you could make for the benefit of the marriage? Random example: In this economy it sounds blasphemous, but maybe one or both of you take a slightly less gangbusters approach to your job? You both sound like amazingly diligent and high-output people which is awesome, but is probably not the best for an already shaky romantic foundation.

 

What if you guys sit down together, whip out a calendar and make time for activities that are important to *both* of you? Pick a weekend to go do volunteering, find a Wednesday night for just the two of you to kick back and have fun, etc.

 

This may be a really great way for both of you to establish some control and investment in setting the direction of the relationship. It may feel forced or corny as you compare Thursday to Saturday to find the best date to go bowling but...really, what do you have to lose?

 

If the idea sounds at all appealing or worth a try in your situation this is also a really, really strong litmus test for her willingness. Just grab a day planner and some pencils and tell her look, this is really very important to me and I'd like for you to help me so we can *all* get what we need and be proactive about making this better. It's important to me that you do this. Or something in that vein

 

Any spouse worth two grams of sugar will sit with you and at least try to hammer this out. Granted, it may not go well. One/both of you may get frustrated. She may not see the point. Fine, that can all be slugged through and de-tangled a piece at a time. But the underlying big neon thing here is...is your wife willing to work *together* with you even in a small way on a concrete plan to get this thing on track. That's the important part.

 

As long as no one's cheating/beating, it ain't over til the fat lady sings. This is the oft-glossed over downside of those vows you guys took (...not that you need to be reminded at all) and from what you're describing BOTH of you want this relationship. I'm the first to admit as a never married kid wheeling about the city perfecting the art of not putting out on the first date, I have n-o-t a clue about how hard this must be. But I do know couples who have made it and I do know he words we say when we get married. It sucks, it hurts but if you're both in it to win then really, this is the time to pull out all the stops and do everything you can to save this marriage that you both want to continue with.

 

Her reasoning may be a little different than yours (To be honest I legit LOL'd when I read the quote about "It's usually the woman who leaves") but bottom line is you're both still here and youre both good people dedicated to your work and the children.

 

It probably doesn't feel like that now, but you guys have a lot of common ground there and are honestly lightyears ahead of many couples that hit this site.

 

This *is* workable, you just have to tease it out.

 

Keep talking to us. We're in your corner.

[Awakening43]

I want to start off by saying thank you to everyone here, I cannot believe the support offered here to a virtual stranger. Thank you!

 

From what you're saying I take it that you want this relationship to work. There's a gap, a big one from your perspective between your ideal relationship and the day-to-day with your family. Can you bullet point precisely what needs to change? I see your pain and discontent but...what *exactly* do you want different?

 

I wanted to say a couple things.

 

First, if you can rely on the last couple weeks of behavior, my wife is totally on board with whatever change I want to make. That's almost a problem in itself! She has said, if I want to move, she'll move wherever I want. She'll quit her job if I want. And perhaps the most troublesome of all (yes, I can hear the snickers but this is a problem in my eyes), she has said, "I no longer feel I can say no to you about anything, including my body, so do whatever you want."

 

No reasonable person says these things, these seem like very reactionary statements out of fear.

 

Really what I want is a real person.

 

For example, her actions are this: For six years, we lived in a virtual sexless marriage. Now, I can do whatever I want as often as I want. What gives? If I am so irresistible that she'll submit to anything, where was this desire when there was no visible threat of me leaving? If she has no desire for me, why suddenly the free reign now? (And yes, her desire is important to me.)

 

I do not trust her. But I badly want to. I just do not let myself.

 

My counselor has told me that her actions (not sleeping in the same bed, refusing sex, refusing to spend time with me, controlling the finances, I could go on...) basic constitute some level of emotional abuse. I found some posts on this site and this is EXACTLY what I worry about:

 

The cycle of emotional abuse:

Step 1: Emotional Abuse

Step 2: Victim gets fed up and finally decides to shut down

Step 3: Abuser panics and makes all kinds of promises to change. Becomes the warm, thoughtful, caring person the victim saw at the very beginning

Step 4: Victim sees the the positive change and once again opens [his] heart

Step 5: Abuser reverts back to the emotionally abusive and distancing behaviors

Steps 6 etc.: Wash, rinse, repeat

 

So, this is sort of what I'm up against.

 

Not only do I not know what her real motivations are, but I have lost all trust in her. My heart badly wants to be with her but my defenses are up so high, I think I am the one who is ultimately holding us back. But I can't get past it. I feel a lot like how Hex has been posting... it's over. But I don't want it to be over, so I stay.

 

Yes, this is pretty irrational and I suppose this just boils down to me making a decision. I think deep down I know this. I just do not know if I have it in me to make another effort at this given that I feel like I can't believe in her sincerity based on past actions. I hope this makes some kind of sense.

 

Thanks again for reading.

[Awakening43]

A quick update...some good news and bad news...My wife and I have had a couple talks, we seem to go around in circles sometimes but I suppose at least we are talking.

 

One of the things she asked for was for more free time for herself. I can do that, I told her I will watch the kids a bit more so she can go out. She seemed happy about that. I have a small concern that this just leads to more alone time for her and more stress for me, but I trust her judgment and hopefully it pays off.

 

Probably my biggest concern is that I don't view her as anything more than a friend/roommate any more. For a number of years, all my efforts in asking for sex, begging, choreplay, etc. etc. resulted in nothing, and after a while on some level I think I just stopped looking at her that way. I can't get the feeling back. She kisses me, and there's nothing.

 

I have identified one of the problems as my wife's general lack of caring about physical appearance. I'm not talking just about weight, I mean the whole t-shirt/sweats thing, I can't remember the last time she wore high heels or lingerie or really anything fetching, or changed her hair, etc.. That probably sounds sexist I guess, I don't mean it to be. I tried to equate men/women issues; saying you view me more positively when I offer to watch the children more, which is not dissimilar from me viewing you more positively when you try to attract me physically. She does not get this concept. "What do I have to weigh to be attractive to you?", she'll ask. I'll say there is no number, it's all in the brain and how you carry yourself. A real bottleneck here and it would probably be pretty comedic as an outsider to listen to me try to explain to my wife what women being sexy is. LOL.

 

One other shocking quote from my wife: "It's sad you would be willing to leave a marriage if I gain too much weight. I would not leave you under any circumstances, even if you weighed 500 pounds." I worry I am fighting a losing battle. I asked her would she feel right leaving if I was abusive or was sleeping around or refused to work... "that's different".

 

I approached her with an offer. I told her I would offer to cut contact with my EA friend and cease my on-line activity (which have become my substitutes) if she would be willing to cut her ties with Facebook and her other distractions such as daily visits by her friends, excessive playdates, and cutting down on family visits (which amount to 2-4 days per week). My thinking was that if we both do this, we'll both be sitting around the couch for a few days/weeks wondering what to do with ourselves, and things would be more clear.

 

She was very happy to see me offer to give up my timesinks but she is unwilling to give up hers. I re-offered the same deal and said Saturday could be our individual day to see friends/family/Facebook, etc. Again, she said no, that I am isolating her. It is disturbing that she recognizes how my timesinks affect her, she does not see how hers affect me equally.

 

We'll see how it goes, not a lot of resolution but we are still talking. We "fired" our MC and have an appointment with a new guy that comes with the reputation of being pretty tough on couples. Maybe just what we need.