Nutz Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Those links I posted earlier spells it all out. All this talk about gender, being in the right or wrong, it's essentially moot as your thinking about it in the wrong context. I go out several nights a week and touch women all the time. You just have to know how to escalate. A little tap on the forearm with the back of my hand/knuckle is a good way to start. You can't just walk up and put your arm on the small over her back. That comes later once she's comfortable with your touch. After about 30 minutes of talking and escalating my touching with this girl by the end of the night we stood there my arm around her with my hand on her hip and us talking in each other's ear cheek to cheek. I started a little too quick and had to read her body language and reaction and saw I moved a little too fast, so I slowed it down and did more of the little stuff eventually getting her comfortable and us having a great time together. Think of touching women like it's a form of foreplay. You have to work up to the big stuff and can't just dive in. Women need to be primed first. In many respects with touching guys are the same way. When women walk up and are all touchy grabby it's weird and off putting. When you work up slowly you can go a lot farther. For the guys, read the links I posted above, and then read this. It outlines the steps to proper escalation: link removed Link to comment
servedcold Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Look, you want to go up to strange women and touch them, then women have every right to just say no. She wasn't rude, she didn't go off on the OP, she was just straight forward and didn't waste anyones time. Yes, she was rude. Cutting people off before they complete a brief introduction and "shooing" them away is rude. I can think of few exceptions, maybe if a telemarketer calls someone at home, but the environment is completely different. Also, it is certainly her prerogative to be rude, as it is anyone's, but it is still rude behavior nonetheless. It sucks for the OP but there's nothing worse than having people you just aren't interested in pawing at you. Tapping someone's shoulder or touching their arm to get attention in a loud or crowded environment is not the same as "pawing," or grabbing breasts or butt. Women can't expect to carry some "magic bubble" of total protection around with them into any environment they choose to enter. If you are going to a loud, crowded place, you are going to get touched. Interestingly enough, if the "right" man comes along and touches an arm or shoulder to get a woman's attention in a loud or crowded place, suddenly lots of hyper-sensitivity to touch goes out the window. There is no way for a man to know whether he is the "right" man or not, we are not psychic. I suspect the touching in OP's situation was not what triggered the rudeness, but that it was just an example of the rude ways men approaching women are often treated. Women aren't held accountable for this rudeness, so it continues, hence some of the blame is on men for accepting such behavior. Link to comment
Cognitive_Canine Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Rarely are men ever afraid of a woman overpowering them. As someone who has been touched inappropriately by men at bars, I will continue to turn down unwanted attention or touching. It's extremely scary being in that situation and I really don't think you can appreciate that. I believe that that girl was not rude and was simply not okay with the way the OP approached her. Link to comment
servedcold Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Rarely are men ever afraid of a woman overpowering them. and outside of old Jodie Foster movies, no women I know are afraid of being "overpowered" by a man in a crowded bar or club. It's extremely scary being in that situation and I really don't think you can appreciate that. If it's that scary to be in a crowded bar or club where a man might touch your arm or shoulder to get your attention, then maybe you shouldn't be going to those kinds of places. No, sorry, I can't appreciate that, and based on years of experience, men are generally in much more danger of being subject to unwanted and unexpected violence in bars than women are, usually started by the "wrong" woman coming onto them. Link to comment
Cognitive_Canine Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 and outside of old Jodie Foster movies, no women I know are afraid of being "overpowered" by a man in a crowded bar or club. If it's that scary to be in a crowded bar or club where a man might touch your arm or shoulder to get your attention, then maybe you shouldn't be going to those kinds of places. No, sorry, I can't appreciate that, and based on years of experience, men are generally in much more danger of being subject to unwanted and unexpected violence in bars than women are, usually started by the "wrong" woman coming onto them. Having a guy about 100 pounds heavier than you grabbing your crotch will leave you a little jaded. And the sad thing is, this is common. Link to comment
servedcold Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Having a guy about 100 pounds heavier than you grabbing your crotch will leave you a little jaded. And the sad thing is, this is common. Wow, sorry you have experienced this, I've never seen it though, maybe I've just led a sheltered life. Can you see the difference between crotch grabbing and tapping someone's shoulder or touching their arm to get their attention when they aren't facing you though? Link to comment
Cognitive_Canine Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Wow, sorry you have experienced this, I've never seen it though, maybe I've just led a sheltered life. Can you see the difference between crotch grabbing and tapping someone's shoulder or touching their arm to get their attention when they aren't facing you though? When you've been grabbed by anyone, it makes all unwanted touching feel just as threatening. And, that wasn't the only time. It was the worst though. My butt is usually what gets grabbed. Typically in crowded areas is where it is most prominant because guys can just say it was an accident. Most of my bad encounters happened in crowds of concerts. A lot of them are just drunken incidents too. The guys didn't mean to make you feel uncomfortable. They just brought on an unwanted advance that seemed to them like a playful introduction to them. Like a "hey there" kind of touch that soon turns to "oh, I'm sorry" kind of look when they get your reaction. I honestly believe that most guys just weren't thinking when they grabbed. Link to comment
Kiteless Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 My initial reaction when being touched, when I am not expecting it, by someone I don't know even if it IS in a bar is just as, or even more rude. You should ALWAYS make eye contact with someone before you even THINK of touching them. Last time I checked I am not public property. I shouldn't have to submit to be touched just because I am out at a bar. Link to comment
agent1607307371 Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Last time I checked I am not public property. I am constantly amazed at how many people just DON'T get that. Link to comment
l0vel0rn Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 SO does everyone get shut down at one point, no matter what you look like or say to someone? Yes....... Link to comment
servedcold Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 I am constantly amazed at how many people just DON'T get that. I'm amazed at how certain people consider getting tapped on the arm while out as equivalent to being treated as "public property." Sounds like just another hyper-dramatic and untenable radical feminist position. As stated previously, if it's Brad Pitt doing the arm tapping, suddenly there's no issue, and therein lies the inconsistency. Link to comment
D_Lish Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 My initial reaction when being touched, when I am not expecting it, by someone I don't know even if it IS in a bar is just as, or even more rude. You should ALWAYS make eye contact with someone before you even THINK of touching them. Last time I checked I am not public property. I shouldn't have to submit to be touched just because I am out at a bar. Yes I agree. Nothing worse than having some strange guy 'paw' you.. Back to OP, yes we all have been turned down at one time or another, we have all suffered rejection at some point in time. We can't be everyones cuppa... Link to comment
agent1607307371 Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 I'm amazed at how certain people consider getting tapped on the arm while out as equivalent to being treated as "public property." Sounds like just another hyper-dramatic and untenable radical feminist position. As stated previously, if it's Brad Pitt doing the arm tapping, suddenly there's no issue, and therein lies the inconsistency. No one has said that. Also, you lose points for blaming "teh craxy feminists". Of course, maybe being English I just have a completely different view of what constitutes acceptable social behaviours. And yes, if it's Brad Pitt then of course it's different. He's hot and rich and that's all that matter. ~rolls eyes~ Link to comment
Darkness_Falls Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 It's interesting that its pretty much all the women who say that men invading personal space in any way is a no-no and the men then say that us women shouldn't go to bars if we don't like being touched or are afraid. It comes down to the fact that men do not understand how it feels for a woman when her personal space is invaded. It feels so threatening even if it's just someone trying to get my attention. There is no need for it if you don't know me, if you don't know me then don't touch me. That's how I see it. And I mean that men shouldn't touch a woman if they are trying to chat them up, if they are trying to get past and it's accidental or whatever then fine. Otherwise, make eye contact and speak to me. And it makes no difference who it is. It can be the hottest guy in the room and I still have the same reaction. Link to comment
servedcold Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 No one has said that. Last time I checked I am not public property. I shouldn't have to submit to be touched just because I am out at a bar. Also, you lose points for blaming "teh craxy feminists". I am a "feminist" where equal treatment under the law and elsewhere is concerned, just not a radical, man-hating one, and the "poor weak me scared of men in public places" argument is archaic, anti-feminist, and just doesn't hold water where we are talking about touching someone's arm to get their attention in public. Sure, in private or secluded places, pull out the mace and blow the whistle, and sure, if a guy "grabs" or "paws" you sexually anywhere, this is wrong, no issue there. The issue I have in the thread is that OP walked up to a woman, touched her arm to get her attention, and any rude behavior of the woman after that is instantly justified because of his supposedly "offensive" touching. To play the same hyperbole game you all are playing, would she have been justified to throw a drink in his face or spray him with mace? Of course not. But when called on it, all of you resort to the hyperbole of past experiences of being sexually grabbed or of men not understanding that women can be fearful of contact, neither is relevant in OP's case. What's really going on here is that women will rationalize til the cows come home in justification of treating men rudely who approach them in places where many people are there to socialize. It's bad behavior that women aren't generally held accountable for, but bad nonetheless. Are you obligated to socialize with a man who walks up? Of course not, but shooing someone away or cutting them off rudely is not justified either just because they touched your arm to get your attention in a place that is likely loud and crowded. If the man persists, of course it's OK to get rude, but nothing OP posted suggested any untoward behavior on his part. Link to comment
lost1607307474 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 It's interesting that its pretty much all the women who say that men invading personal space in any way is a no-no and the men then say that us women shouldn't go to bars if we don't like being touched or are afraid. It comes down to the fact that men do not understand how it feels for a woman when her personal space is invaded. It feels so threatening even if it's just someone trying to get my attention. Exactly. This is what I was trying to say earlier. For a woman to be touched by a strange man it is a lot more threatening that if a woman touched a man. And women have the right to feel threatened by a strange man touching them, as the statistics of sexually harassment towards women has skyrocketed in the past decade... and so you can understand why it would be more threatening for a woman to be touched by an unknown person in public. Link to comment
D_Lish Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 It's interesting that its pretty much all the women who say that men invading personal space in any way is a no-no and the men then say that us women shouldn't go to bars if we don't like being touched or are afraid... Perhaps some men should stay away from the bars, if they have no control over their actions and think that they have personal access to a woman, ie: touching her up. Link to comment
servedcold Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Perhaps some men should stay away from the bars, if they have no control over their actions and think that they have personal access to a woman, ie: touching her up. Yet more hyperbole. Nothing OP posted suggested either a lack of control, that he had assumed "personal access" (whatever that is), or that any "touching up" (whatever that is) took place. Link to comment
D_Lish Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Yet more hyperbole. How rude. I am entitled to my say, as you are entitled to yours... Im sure we can do it, without resorting to insults....theres a good lad Link to comment
Kiteless Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Oddly enough, I'm not remotely a feminist, I just really don't dig being touched by random people, dudes or chicks. Oddly enough, it seems a whole lot of women agree with me. This is what so confuses me. Women are telling you guys, "Hey we don't dig it when you come up to us and touch us without at least making some eye contact." You, as guys, are trying to date us, supposedly. Wouldn't you WANT to act in a way that women react to in a positive way instead of telling us it is OUR problem and to get over it? O_o That just makes my brain itch in ways I'd really rather not even experience. Link to comment
l0vel0rn Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 O_o That just makes my brain itch in ways I'd really rather not even experience. I LOLed IRL. Link to comment
Nutz Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 How in the world did this thread go from a guy walking up, tapping a woman on the shoulder to get her attention, and then being all about sexual assault or whatever it is this progressed into. Getting back on topic, to the OP when that happens, read those links I posted earlier. The reaction you got is very common and the key is to be unphased by it and plow forward. If you get that kind of reaction a lot, then you're probably telegraphing the wrong things. Work on the vibe you project and make sure you're looking happy and like you're having fun so you don't make people put off by your approach. There are a ton of things you can do to improve how others perceive you. Link to comment
Cognitive_Canine Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I don't want to be touched by strangers. End of story. Link to comment
servedcold Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 How rude. I am entitled to my say, as you are entitled to yours... Im sure we can do it, without resorting to insults....theres a good lad Equating touching a woman's arm in a bar to "feeling her up" is hyperbole, not insulting, not rude, simple fact. Link to comment
servedcold Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 This is what so confuses me. Women are telling you guys, "Hey we don't dig it when you come up to us and touch us without at least making some eye contact." You, as guys, are trying to date us, supposedly. Wouldn't you WANT to act in a way that women react to in a positive way instead of telling us it is OUR problem and to get over it? O_o That just makes my brain itch in ways I'd really rather not even experience. First of all, I'll bet it isn't OP's standard practice to walk up and touch women he doesn't know. Is it the best way to start a conversation? no, is it understandable in certain situations? yes. Second, I don't ever touch women first, they touch me plenty without my needing to , but if I wanted to get someone's attention in a loud or crowded place, I wouldn't hesitate to touch a woman's arm, just as I would touch a guy's arm. It's... just... not... that... big... a... deal, and certainly not grounds for a rallying cry against harassment, abuse, groping, grabbing, molesting, stalking, and other miscreant acts. OP hasn't been here for some time, so the fact that this has gone on so long is funny in itself. Link to comment
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