Passion paradox

[Clementine orange]

I just read about this on wikipeida

 

link removed

 

But what on earth is one supposed to do about it?

 

I am doing this weird dance with my recent ex while we both try to figure out what we want to do. The balance keeps flipping back and forth. For most of our 1 year relationship I was the one who was "up" but now because she dumped me, I am the one who is down. Except that later (meaning now) she is regretting the dumping and is semi freaking out so now I'm up. I don't feel "up" though as I am finding myself kind of needy and over-analyzing things. Not good

 

I want to win her back but my confidence levels regarding her are shot. We are communicating by phone and email but she really wants to see me but I know I will be a nervous wreck. I know that one of the things she really liked about me was my self-confidence and "coolness" however don't really have these things anymore so my best weapon is unavailable.

 

](*,)

 

I mentioned that she seems pretty calm and cool, I pointed that out but she denies it - she's a better actor than me I think.

[jettison]

Clem,

 

I own this book, and you probably know that I recommend it to people on these boards all the time. It can be quite an eye opener. Once your broken up, it is REALLY hard to employ any of the lessons learned to get her back.

 

Part of being a 1up is that you are making her unsure and puting her on edge to a degree. That's just the nature of it. However, when you're doing this to your ex as an ex then they are less likely to keep pursuing and more likely to just give up because it feels too difficult or even cruel. They are more likely to say "I just give up because this is way too hard, hurts to much, and I think he's moving on anyway."

 

The rouse is that my ex-GF will only tolerate our ex-relationship as a 1up. If she's feeling like the 1down then she's likely just to cut off contact because she can't deal. In fact, she can't handle being the 1down in any of her relationships or friendships.

[Jake11]

I have never read this book, but I understand the theory behind all of it. Is there anything in the book that states that a person does better, or more accurately, is more likely to stay with someone if they are actually the 1 down?

[Shin kensen]

Passion Paradox. Think of love as a material object - say a ball or something. You give a child the ball and he will not take it, you take away the ball and all of a sudden they want it.

 

Anyway I think it's a pretty vague and the only other reference except from that wikipedia article I found is the book : link removed

[jettison]

I have never read this book, but I understand the theory behind all of it. Is there anything in the book that states that a person does better, or more accurately, is more likely to stay with someone if they are actually the 1 down?

 

If the 1down isn't secure enough being a 1down, and are used to being the 1up in a relationship, then he/she will fight, claw, scratch, throw fits, and just generally act like a complete %^$# until they've gotten their rightful position back as 1up. And by that time, they've usually managed to torch the relationship completely.

[Beec]

If you want to change this, and according to the langauge above, then you need to accept the 1down position without trying to change it.

 

I think this is going to have to do a lot with how ready you are to give without expectation of a return. A gift is not really a gift if an exchange of equal or similar value is expected. You will both need to give in this way, in order to have a real future. You will also both need to forgive. But someone needs to start.

[Clementine orange]

If the 1down isn't secure enough being a 1down, and are used to being the 1up in a relationship, then he/she will fight, claw, scratch, through fits, and just generally act like a complete %^$# until they've gotten their rightful position back as 1up. And by that time, they've usually managed to torch the relationship completely.

 

UH oh, I think I might be one of those peeps who absolutely HAS to be 1up. This might be why I am having so many problems dealing with the idea of "getting back with my ex". Even though she is showing signs of being 1down. I wonder if both people can be same?

 

I suppose in part this is what NC give you - you take your attention away from the person who left you in order to try to get some 1up back.

Well, it kinda worked for me but ....

[Clementine orange]

If you want to change this, and according to the langauge above, then you need to accept the 1down position without trying to change it.

 

I think this is going to have to do a lot with how ready you are to give without expectation of a return. A gift is not really a gift if an exchange of equal or similar value is expected. You will both need to give in this way, in order to have a real future. You will also both need to forgive. But someone needs to start.

 

Yes, you're probably right. Pride however....it's got that sting.

[Beec]

Yes, you're probably right. Pride however....it's got that sting.

 

No question about that, and there is someting to the adage "once bitten twice shy."

 

But there also must be something that each of you have in wanting to not entirely lose the other.

[Clementine orange]

No question about that, and there is someting to the adage "once bitten twice shy."

 

But there also must be something that each of you have in wanting to not entirely lose the other.

 

Yes there is something but we don't know what and I don't really want to get hurt all over again. She is sending me mixed signals (and I probably am too). She is saying "lets be friends and stay in contact until we can figure out what we want" but I'm like....that is hard. I'm not really a let's be friends type of person.

 

I can tell you plainly - NC was way easier than this. Sure it hurt some but at least I wasn't analyzing every single little detail and/or waiting on email or phone call responses.

 

Last weekend she wanted me to come over and watch TV and cuddle on the couch. Does that sound like what one does with one's friend. I said "no" because I was pretty sure things would go from there. The thing is, I'm not sure if she doesn't secretly hope things will "go from there". We are both playing out cards really close to our chest.

 

I think my NC (30 days) really hurt her and I know she really missed me. I'm think she is a little worried about scaring me off.

[Beec]

You know when you reach an impass like this, you need to think of a few things:

 

1. Is there a way that you can get past it without a major confrontational move; and if not,

2. Can you handle the confrontation?; and if so,

3. How to best handle it?

 

I don't know enough about how you got to this point to help you answer those questions, and I can only say that 3 really needs to consider what she will react best to.

[beebee]

orange... this is where all this bs drives me nuts!... ask her!... * * *!... if she gives you a stupid answer that you cant decifer, then ask her again until she answers specifically, yes i want a relationship with you, or no i dont, i just want to mess with your head...

 

to raymond, the love of my recent life, in my dreams, the "perfect" man... lol... wth is all this about one up and one down?... you mean "ive got the power" in the relationship?... ive noticed that in relationships ive been in, the power shifts... personally, i like to have all the power and be queen of the prom... will you be my king?... lol... no?... didnt think so... bummer...

 

God bless... beebee

[beebee]

omg!... ive switched topics... what a turncoat... oops... my fault... i was checking to see what raymond was saying... silly me... now im lost... doesnt take much to make an airhead get confused...

 

im looking at the map of the maze... ill find it... dont worry...

 

God bless... beebee

[tiredofvampires]

I have not read this book, okay.

 

But I have been in enough relationships to know that this dynamic DOES in fact exist. I have been at various times the 1up, and 1down, though usually the dance seems to be that I at the beginning am the 1up (and not even by my own hand, but the hand that lifted me so high up into the sky I was afraid of falling) and by the end, the 1 downdowndowndowndowndown (by the same hand that lifted me up, now smashing me down because I am no longer valued for the things I was once upp'd for).

 

So I know this inside out. I might pick up the book just to reinforce what else I know --

 

That I want NO PART of a relationship that is based on a 1up-1down dynamic. Not at the beginning when we are courting, (ah, "The Rules", another fantastic book about smoke and mirrors as a way to grab the "reaction" you are after), not in the middle when the honeymoon is mellowing, and not at the end, when we find ourselves in a years-long love affair.

 

I know that what I want is out there -- I've seen couples doing it. They are EQUAL. They are both in love and committed to the relationship because it is something they both treasure. Sure, there are days that one person gets resentful and pulls a power or control move, or the other way around, but to me, the HEART and SOUL of good communication is the commitment to being straightforward, direct, clear, open, honest about what you are feeling, vulnerable, laying your hand out for them to see -- not 'playing close to your chest.'

 

And because both have agreed in this commitment to DOING THE SAME, and want it as much, the heat will fall on them at different times to give all that in return. So with small vascillations, there is no "1 up" and "1 down." There are just two people who want to communicate in the best interests of getting unstuck when the relationship is stuck. It's not a competition, it's not a game, it's not a matter of who has the most self-control and restraint and who is going to cave in sooner, harder and faster. Pride and ego: are these things to foster in a relationship or try mutually to overcome? "Pride goeth before the Fall." The Passion Paradox is based on pride, plus a sense of inflation and deflation of one's perception of self-worth.

 

I do not want to be in a relationship (ever again) where my value is called into question because I love with all my heart and soul (and being someone who does so without reserve, for a person with a 1-up mentality, I will in the end always be screwed; not just because I will repeatedly find myself in the demeaning one-down position, but because I will start to have to distort myself to play right back, and try to be an 1-upper too, just to try to even the score, which is unnatural to me and self-aggrandizing, so I will feel my integrity compromised by being drafted into the game, too). I do not want to be in a relationship where my perceived value to my partner has the fickleness of the stock market, and I have to keep my eye on the numbers. What you describe, Clem, is the misery of this arrangement. The constant hypervigilance, the constant tab-keeping on your image and performance, the temperature-checking, the wondering how you came off, the withholding then giving on cue, the carrot-and-stick, emotional punishment-reward, the second-guessing, every move. I have been there, and yes, it hurts my head, my soul and my heart -- it hurts because not only is it energy-draining, but it is a cloud of insincerity in motion. It's governed by who's hurt more and how not to be "it", rather than to fix the imbalance that started because of something more fundamental. Imbalance doesn't just ARISE out of nowhere, it arises out of a problem with the relationship, and instead of trying to address squarely where that went wrong, this uses gimmicks instead to minuette around the issue itself. It really gets to the heart of nothing, and what is really wrong; it only creates power trips and more grief. It is a playact, not a solution. If one person is not being loved enough, they should leave, unless the reason for this disconnect can be identified and dealt with. Vice versa if one is pulling away, the cause of that needs to be addressed. Maybe there is too much suffocation, not enough independence, too much pressure of some kind from one or both people, and the relationship is surviving on low quality fuel. Then feed it with something more nourishing, even if that's more space to breathe.

 

Excitement doesn't need to be concocted this way to cement things. Eventually, this will lead to the demise of a relationship, I believe, because it's a symptomatic treatment of as I said real disconnection. I don't think this dynamic has to be a byproduct of and LTR. And no one should EXPECT it to. I don't think it's a fact of life, or a basic rule of nature. Well, it is, that we have these tendencies -- market value, perceived value, scarcity and demand determining a sense of "need". Sure, we can appeal to those animal instincts, as love IS a need. And in this theory, devolves into a commodity.

 

I find this an incredibly demoralizing view of love and its potential and most of all, the goals of reciprocity and mutualism. Two people shouldn't be fighting for who is top dog position to create excitement or a bond in the relationship. That is an artificial connector. The love should be the connector, and it should be reciprocal and mutual, desired equally by both. I do not want to be in a relationship where one person feels they are being neglected and having to almost beg some of the time. Eew. I'd rather not be in a relationship than live through this kind of "acting". Which is part of this thread: "she is a better actor than me." You see, you even say, Clem, you are so tired of trying to figure out your next play.

 

It's exhausting. I played this with my last ex, even though we both wanted eachother as much. Which is why this is such a phony way to aspire to living. Because even though you want someone, you are pretending things, in order to get a "rise" or desired reaction. This, my friends, is called: manipulation. Do we want to choose manipulation as our modus vivendi? Or do we want to choose "what you see is what you get", clean, pure relating that chooses to COMMUNICATE the TRUTH of the feelings and one's needs at the time, rather than having a bush beaten around and hurt feelings? I do not want to make my partner insecure to secure their love. And I do not ever want to be put on the receiving end of that in order to empower someone else's security (and eventual contempt.) I feel my love is precious, it's not a toy, and it should be treated that way. With appreciation, honor and respect. The person who receives my love is LUCKY, and I am LUCKY to have my beloved's love. That is how it should be viewed, and how we should be treating eachother. Humbling ourselves enough to say, "I am lucky to have you" and to make that pre-eminent in the relationship dynamic, to renew it when it falters. Not play hard-to-get games to insure you've still "got it."

 

I want to live every last day of my life, once I find the one for me, with a mutual feeling of "how did I get so lucky?" No up, no down, just walking on the same level of hallowed ground.

 

I repudiate having to acquiesce to this "pecking order" vision of love. People. Leave it to the cynics and those who need excitement more than they need actual LOVE.

 

Okay...someone get me a ladder so I can step down from this soapbox, now. Lol.