The whole cyber flingie thingie... how did we come to this?

[Alea]

This negative attitude about long distance relationships - that it is impossible to love someone before meeting them face to face - seems to be prevalent on most forums, not only this one. It's an attitude that I struggle to understand, and realize that it may be seen as valid because of how the people in long-distance relationships treat the relationship. It is something, however, that bothers me.

 

To share my own story, my fiancee and I met online, with no intention whatsoever of pursuing a romantic relationship. We'd both had negative experiences with online dating, and not only were we not interested in an online romantic relationship, we weren't interested in any type of romantic relationship. We'd known one another for four months before that changed.

 

We had a close friendship based on honesty and shared experience, and found that we had both developed romantic feelings for the other. Somewhat warily, we decided to give an online relationship a try. He lives in Oregon, and I live in Georgia, so the three thousand miles between us certainly encouraged us to be cautious. Despite our intitial misgivings, the relationship became very close.

 

As of today, we've been dating nearly nine months. The first time we met in person was wonderful for us both, and we were pleasantly surprised to find that meeting in person changed nothing about our relationship. The only difference was that instead of longing to touch, we could. He proposed Thanksgiving night, and we're moving in together this Decemeber - and I have no doubt in my mind that I loved him, and that he loved me, before we ever truly "met".

 

Just my experience.

 

EDIT: To clarify, our relationship started in IM, but quickly moved almost entirely to voicechat. This was before we started dating - we were already familiar with voices, faces, etc before a romantic relationship began.

[Baby Carrot]

This negative attitude about long distance relationships - that it is impossible to love someone before meeting them face to face - seems to be prevalent on most forums, not only this one. It's an attitude that I struggle to understand, and realize that it may be seen as valid because of how the people in long-distance relationships treat the relationship. It is something, however, that bothers me.

 

First, why should it bother you what other people think?

 

Second, there's a difference between "loving" and "falling in love". It is fair to say is quite impossible to LOVE someone you've met online, since love is something huge that involves day to day convivence.

 

FALLING IN LOVE, yeah completely possible. Infatuation, fantasies, romance, wishful thinking. All that and more happens when you meet someone online.

 

But it takes more than pretty words and conversations with tons of chemistry to actually get to the conclusion you fully love a person. Why, because as Batya said, there's information that cannot be transmitted thru a chat or a phone conversation, and you NEED that information for getting to kow a person. And for getting to love that person afterwards.

 

If ur story turned out to be great, cool. But I still don't get why are you bugged about other people's attitude (based on their own experiences as well).

 

Maybe this "negative attitude" (I would use the term "realistic" better) everywhere is simply an indicator that, statistically, in most cases, it doesn't work like the Disney love story that we're all expecting.

[Batya33]

My point is that you likely would not have accepted his proposal without dating in person for a reasonable amount of time, first. So, despite your believing that you loved and were in love with him before you met, that did not translate into willingness to make a commitment without spending time in person.

 

I am not negative about long distance relationships. I think they are largely based on fantasy and for some that is good enough for them. Nothing negative there. I also think they can work out as long as the people involved end up living in the same place and spending consistent in person time together for at least 6 to 9 months. Obviously there always are exceptions - arranged marriages can work out great, too!

 

What I do not agree with - and have seen posted here before- is that if you have great intuition and communication you can transcend the need to see each other in person in order to get to know whether you are romantically compatible. Or the implication that those who need to spend consistent time in person are somehow more "shallow."

 

And of course there are factors that affect peoples' willingness to commit including neediness, rebound relationships, biological clocks, etc. So, you cannot generalize.

 

In my experience and in many experiences i have heard about the typical scenario is strong in love or love feeling before meeting in person and then some combination of not clicking in person and/or circumstances that the person could deal with from afar but not up close (like children, ex spouses, financial issues, etc). I have also seen potentially good relationships sabotaged by unrealistic expectations based on typing and talking only.

[Alea]

I don't argue that meeting isn't a necessity - it is. In a relationship where one of the two people is unwilling or unable to meet the other, there is clearly a problem in the relationship (if, in this case, it could be called a relationship.) I do think that it is possible to have a relationship that is solely online, but that for actual love, there needs to be an intent to meet. But I also feel that it is possible not just to fall in love, but to be in love, through long distances. It takes hard work, and it takes two people who are honest, communicative, and devoted to one another.

 

I've seen long distance relationships fail, but I've also seen many suceed. I think that part of why love can be so hard to find at a distance is because of the ease of a fantasy life, which has been spoken about in length on this thread. It is easier to lie to a person, it is easier to make yourself seem to be someone that you are not. It's easy to shield a person from the negative sides of you when it's as easy as flipping a switch. But these things don't make all long-distance relationships invalid.

 

There are actually benefits to beginning a relationship on the internet. The same anonymity that makes it so easy to lie to someone also makes it easier to open up. It makes it easier to tell the truth, because it's easier to run away if someone doesn't like you. The relative emotional safety provided by the internet can make people grow closer, faster. And the emotional closeness provided by the internet, while often misplaced, can be a wonderful thing. Eventually the safety crutches go away as the relationship becomes more intimate, as more personal information is shared. I knew that something had changed the day I realized that I didn't have an online relationship - I had a real relationship with a real person, and the internet just happened to be the way we communicated.

 

However, I will accept that my situation is most likely a rarity. The first time we met, it was intented to be romantic - and it was an experience that we both enjoyed a great amount. I do have to take into account that we were unusually close and acquainted with one another - having spent approximately six hours talking a day for nearly a year. We'd talked at length about meeting, and our expectations from it. We went into the meeting expecting no change in our relationship - we didn't expect it to miraculously bring us closer together, or to drive us apart. And as I stated before, the only difference was the physical.

 

Because of my positive experience, it does bother me when I read or hear negative (blanket) statements about long distance relationships, because it feels as if others are invalidating what I and so many others have found to be valid, healthy, and lasting relationships. That's not to say that I can't deal with it, or that it's emotionally upsetting - just that I feel the need to present the other side of the argumenet. I fell in love over the internet. I stayed in love, still over the internet. And I'm not the only one.

[Batya33]

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There are actually benefits to beginning a relationship on the internet. The same anonymity that makes it so easy to lie to someone also makes it easier to open up. It makes it easier to tell the truth, because it's easier to run away if someone doesn't like you. The relative emotional safety provided by the internet can make people grow closer, faster. And the emotional closeness provided by the internet, while often misplaced, can be a wonderful thing. Eventually the safety crutches go away as the relationship becomes more intimate, as more personal information is shared. I knew that something had changed the day I realized that I didn't have an online relationship - I had a real relationship with a real person, and the internet just happened to be the way we communicated.

 

 

I see a great disadvantage in the emotional safety the internet provides. it isn't real so that if you meet in person you cannot assume that the person will be able to be as articulate, as open, that his or her type of eye contact and body language won't completely change the vibe or energy of the "sharing" - the closeness from typing most often is not the same in person between two people who have never met. I've had long intense conversations on email and the internet and often the phone conversation was a dud and/or the in person meeting was. It also builds unrealistic expectations and an image of closeness when in reality the person might simply feel comfortable spilling his or her guts to an online 'stranger" but in person it simply won't work that way.

 

and I do not think that it's always positive to grow close quickly - because then you do not know the person over time and don't see the person in the myriad of situations that are typical in a relationship - colds, stomach aches, celebrations about work, reactions to family, friends, the bus driver, the plumber, homeless people, etc.

 

sure you can have an on line relationship - i have many online friends. but to have a romantic relationship that includes love and caring requires, to me, consistent in person time together over at least a 6 month period no matter how long you type on the internet.

 

Yes, being honest and effective communicators helps of course to screen out people who aren't potential mates - but I don't think that makes those types any more successful in predicting romantic compatibility through typing and talking.

[silentalways]

if u are actually in complete control of all mental facalties and are actually viewing things as reality [many people go to chat roooms because they are lonely, depressed, and have no intension of actually doing what they are saying, many are simply escaping from something]. i will use myself as an example - i basically chatted with a few people during a time where i was so depressed, addicted, and stressed out that anything i said could not be taken in any way as fact. there is no way in the world i would have met someone else while i was already in a relationship and the very fact i couldn't 'see' what i was actually doing is concerned cheating [even though i believe what i was suffering from is a valid excuse] - i have still accept responsibilty for my actions and i am now living with the result of that. it was a terrible thing to admit and understand but i no longer blame myself in ways that are punishing and i no longer am tortured by the remorse of it. i have paid the price, learned the lessons, and accept the consquences of my actions. that's all i could do.

[Alea]

"Yes, being honest and effective communicators helps of course to screen out people who aren't potential mates - but I don't think that makes those types any more successful in predicting romantic compatibility through typing and talking."

 

This, I have to disagree with. Being honest and effective in communication is not only beneficial to building a relationship from a distance, it is essential to building any relationship intended to last. Being able to communicate on an honest, earnest level is key to romance. There isn't something magical in the physical that changes everything. There's nothing special about being there in person.

 

More than the distance between two people, it is the way a relationship is approached. The amount of intimacy shared. If you look at online relationships that you considerable questionable, and translate them over into real-life, they will still be questionable. Unhealty practices are unhealthy practices, be they online or not. Dependence, fantasies, lies, all of these happen in person as well.

 

You've stated before that you think a person cannot be in love before they actually meet someone, but you have never been in an online relationship. I have, and state that you can love someone and be in love with them before you meet face to face, because to my experience, this is true. I would say that experience trumps theory, but then, I can trust my judgement - you have no basis or reason to.

[Batya33]

I meant on line - if you are only typing and talking to someone you have never met - then being "honest" or an "effective communicator" has little or no relevance to whether you will be romantically compatible in person. I never applied that beyond typing and talking.

 

You are incorrect about my having never been in an online relationship and you are incorrect about my not being able to have an opinion on them. With respect to the latter I don't need to experience typing and talking before meeting in order to have an opinion on it, just like I have a strong opinion on abortion, murder, child abuse, casual sex, illegal drugs and have never experienced any of those things first hand.

 

It is a little silly to say to someone that he/she cannot express an opinion unless she does it first hand. Many friends and people I know of have typed and talked for months to people they fell in love with and then when they met realized that it is nearly impossible to know if you will have chemistry or clicking in person based on typing and talking. All of what i have read on the subject supports my opinion - I have never read any psychologist or other authority who believes as you do - that you can know whether you are romantically compatible based on typing and talking only if you have never met in person.

 

I have interacted on line with men before meeting them - typically for very short periods of time before meeting (once for 6 weeks)- I am very honest and an extremely effective communicator. What I found - and I met over 100 men in person - (what about you? did you come close to that number?) - is that very often the online persona had little relevance to the in person person (and not based on physical looks - I am talking about the myriad of factors that we as humans take in about a person's vibe and energy based on being in person - that can never happen over the internet). We had lovely conversations by email and phone - some very "deep" and in person we could not communicate well because human beings are visual and take in body language cues, etc and this impacts communication.

 

Also the image from on line and the ease of sharing things by typing very often is not what the person is like in real life. I prefer to have my relationships in real life because everything else is mostly a fantasy, so if we could not communicate in real life there was no point in continuing.

 

I strongly believe that on line platonic friendships are possible and wonderful - I have a few - so yes I know the difference, from that perspective.

 

I will add that if you are that effective at communicating through typing I doubt you would have taken from my post that I was talking about communication in an in person relationship rather than purely on line. Kind of ironic ;-)

[Baby Carrot]

What I found - and I met over 100 men in person, is that very often the online persona had little relevance to the in person person (and not based on physical looks - I am talking about the myriad of factors that we as humans take in about a person's vibe and energy based on being in person - that can never happen over the internet).

 

BATYA...

 

Just out of curiosity... How, when, where, why?

 

I don't mean to question you, I'm just wonderin' .

 

Cuz, JFTR, I did the cyber meeting thing 6 times in my life (and one time the guy didn't even show up) and I currently type and talk with one guy I'm not sure I really wanna meet after all, cuz honestly, I had like ENUFF with that 6 and a half experiences... Eek.

 

*Oh, and also, this guy Hartigan is absolutely the last one I'll ever keep in touch with that comes from the internet. I may meet him, or not. But is only this, and I'm staying away from the internet. No more strangers on my e-mail or MSN. For good. No more online mysterious exciting chit-chat. No nothing. There's really no point for me anymore. I'm no gonna continue developing a beautiful close relationship with my keyboard and phone

[Batya33]

BATYA...

 

Just out of curiosity... How, when, where, why?

 

I don't mean to question you, I'm just wonderin' .

 

Cuz, JFTR, I did the cyber meeting thing 6 times in my life (and one time the guy didn't even show up) and I currently type and talk with one guy I'm not sure I really wanna meet after all, cuz honestly, I had like ENUFF with that 6 and a half experiences... Eek.

 

*Oh, and also, this guy Hartigan is absolutely the last one I'll ever keep in touch with that comes from the internet. I may meet him, or not. But is only this, and I'm staying away from the internet. No more strangers on my e-mail or MSN. For good. No more online mysterious exciting chit-chat. No nothing. There's really no point for me anymore. I'm no gonna continue developing a beautiful close relationship with my keyboard and phone

 

I did on line dating on and off for five years - mostly "off." I live in a major city with a vast singles community. My approach was to exchange a few e-mails - sometimes only two so that I could get a phone number to call, talk for about 20 minutes for the purpose of screening out (i.e. could I see myself having a one hour coffee meeting with this person, was there anything unsafe, odd, uncomfortable about him, his voice, his language, etc - I had to feel comfortable that we could "click" over conversation for about an hour). After that we made a plan to meet ASAP (I did meet a few who lived up two hours away but most lived right nearby) and we met.

 

Because I didn't believe (and still do not believe) in typing and talking as a way to get to know whether you will click in person I didn't waste time on that and e-mailing or many phone calls did not raise my comfort level much because I knew the most relevant information would be had in person - his body language, manners, vibe, energy, the way he interacted with strangers, the waiter, etc. I will say that a number of the men I had met before or we knew many people in common. That certainly helped!

 

Why - because hard to believe but a top priority for me has always been (at least since age 19 or 20) to find a man where we could have a happy stable marriage and family together. I also did personal adds in the late 80's and early 90's.

 

For the last 20 years I have mainly been involved in serious, long term relationships - this on line meeting people occurred in between times.

 

And - this is NOT to be conceited - but I was very successful at meeting people. I am reasonably attractive, successful, well-educated, live in a major city teeming with single people, am very warm, friendly, approachable, social and a good conversationalist. I also look far younger than I am (I am now 40). I sometimes would get a little nervous right before but mostly I was at ease on the phone (I would not - with rare exception - IM with anyone prior to meeting - I found that silly given my goal.

 

Did it work for me? Well, not as far as finding someone to marry (I did not meet my current boyfriend on line) but I met some great people, some of whom I am still in touch with and friendly with, it was great dating "practice" and I learned a lot about myself and more about lots of interesting things - the theater, music, creative writing, etc.

 

I had a few war stories, a few bad experiences, a few unpleasant experiences. At those times it was like a part time job but given my goal it was worth it.

 

I am still an optimist about "men" - I treasure my boyfriend and my numerous platonic friendships with men - some who I have dated, some not. I also love working with men (not to generalize but over time I have noticed this).

[Baby Carrot]

Hard to believe but a top priority for me has always been (at least since age 19 or 20) to find a man where we could have a happy stable marriage and family together.

 

So you had a goal, and you just did what you had to do in order to get what you wanted... Great!

 

That´s completely different to any other story of "boy meets girl online and they cyber fall in love.." I´ve ever heard.

 

I mean, in most cases is really really silly... Like "Uh I met this awesome dude and we love chatting and talking, the problem is, we found each other by mistake, just because we were fooling around online one day, and there´s an issue... I live in Tierra del Fuego and he lives in Alaska, and now is a complete heartache, please help!!!"

 

Sigh.

 

So hats off, for being a woman that knows what she wants and what to do to get it.

 

I see now where all ur perspective and realistic attitude comes from. No muss, no fuss... unlike many of us

 

No, really, is not that funny... actually it kind of sucks...

 

Best, Carrot.

[rikka]

My online "dating" experience matches that of Batya's... maybe 1 in 20 actually clicked regardless of how well we "clicked" in IM. I personally don't consider it to be a "real" relationship if it consists solely of online interaction.

 

Now that my current relationship has switched to LD, I can appreciate and experience the VAST difference between being with someone (face to face) and just relying on "talking" (internet/phone etc).

 

I don't know where I am going with this so I will stop. My final thought is I have read a lot of what Batya has to say regarding online relationships, and I whole-heartedly agree.

[Batya33]

My online "dating" experience matches that of Batya's... maybe 1 in 20 actually clicked regardless of how well we "clicked" in IM. I personally don't consider it to be a "real" relationship if it consists solely of online interaction.

 

Now that my current relationship has switched to LD, I can appreciate and experience the VAST difference between being with someone (face to face) and just relying on "talking" (internet/phone etc).

 

I don't know where I am going with this so I will stop. My final thought is I have read a lot of what Batya has to say regarding online relationships, and I whole-heartedly agree.

 

Thanks! My issue is that some would say that the reason we haven't found "love" through solely typing and talking is that we lack the intuition or communication skills the people who do find love "on line" posssess. I think that's silly. What I do think is that - as with all relationships - whether they succeed depends in part on luck and timing. So, for those people who meet in real life to discover that the feelings they had on line are also there in real life, I don't think that's because they were somehow superior in the communication department - it's basically luck that they happened also to click in person. My guess is also that a percentage of people who are willing to spend that much time typing and talking to a stranger before meeting are on the needier side and thereforeeee it's not difficult for them to "click" in person because they obviously want it to work so badly out of neediness that they "click."

[Batya33]

Honestly, I have no time to type and talk to strangers for more than a short while for the purpose of dating. I do love the few on line platonic friendships I have. I just recently met one in person who lives in Europe - we had been emailing for 2 years plus! - and we totally clicked in person! I actually have met on line friends in real life where even platonically we didn't click because they were much better writers than in person communicators.

 

My favorite story is one on line friend -- the first time we met in person was on her wedding day! She is a close friend of mine still.