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I also find it crazy that so many of you are saying things like I dont think God .......or I think God.........IF I WERE YOU I WOULDNT WANT TO SPEND ETERNITY BASED ON SOMETHING I THOUGHT, or some gut feeling. I would find out for sure. Even if it took doubting the Bible and Christianity to the fullest. I would want to KNOW FOR SURE AN ANSWER not go based on SOMETHING I THOUGHT, because, as we all have learned I am sure, that we are never promised tomorrow.

I have doubted the Bible and Christianity and everytime I did, it just posed itself a stronger case for me.


this is where it gets hazy. i've heard a lot of believers say this, but honestly, if someone starts believing in god "just in case", then guess what? he's not believing in god truly, and thereforeeee is gong to hell. and i understand why you wouldn't "know it for sure" because nobody does, and nobody can. your pastors do not, i do not, you do not, george w bush does not.


let me also say that i am an athiest who, if i did start to believe in a god again, would do so but definely NOT in any organized religion. i refuse to follow a faith whose doctrine states that my best friend is going to hell because he is gay, or my other friends who are jewish, muslim, and hindu.


and on that note, i am not in this conversation anymore, it's going to get too heated for me.

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Now let me make my point and then its time to go to sleep.

Here we go. There is no point in creating a fued on a subject in which we all can not agree on. The reason for different religions is because we all believe different things.

Here is my point.

God created the bible. His word is the bible. Just as God created the bible he also has the ability to adjust the meaning of his personal word.

God understands a persons heart and it is also my personal conviction that every person will be judged individually. God understands why people do such things. You nor I do. so my final statement is this.


God sees everybody for who they are and will also be very understanding towards the human mind. The bible is not god. He will determine the final and end product.


Now to address the issue of me "THINKING". Yes I do think. I will be the first to admit that I do not know everything. And Acts12 you don't either. Try to be a little bit more open minded to other peoples opinions. You don't know everything about the world. Im not saying this in a mean way. I don't know you personally but from what Ive gathered today, you are very opinionated and quick to say what is right and wrong. Now maybe im wrong but just take it into consideration.


C U Later.

God Bless


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wanderer wrote

here's a gib one:


the bible says god is unforgiving and melevolent to those who disobey him:


"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."


Where's the contradiction? These people disobeyed him and this is a punishment. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say God is unforgiving. You spun that one. Dont say things that arent true if you are gonna argue somthing. Punishment and being unforgiving are two completely different things. You might understand it better if you read the entrie chapter. i.e. starting at the beginning of chapter 13 and read up to the point. It is clearly a punishment.


the bible says god is merciful to all of his creations:


"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (James 5:11)

"For his mercy endureth forever." (1 Chron. 16:34)

"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (Ps. 145:9)

"God is love." (1 John 4:16)


You can punish someone and still have mercy on them. We should all be sent to hell, but God sent Christ to die on the cross to cover our sins. I consider that merciful. I would consider all punishments merciful to an extent. A punishment is an example of discipline. Which is for our own benefit anyways.


Were you trying to say that when God punishes someone He is unforgiving? The two cant even be put in the same sentence or category. Unless you are speaking about hell. But even with that forgivenss is still available. However, once you go to hell, there is no more forgiveness. Once youre in hell the book is closed. The opportunity to be forgiven is lost.


PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.


PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.


I love Proverbs. I'm glad you brought these two up. These two verses together provide some very wise advice.



The first one is simply stating not to stoop down to a fool's level. Simple right?


However, the second one is where it gets confusing. Basically what it is saying is that if you were a fool and I was and I was trying to prove a point to you, and you said something outrageous and didnt make any sense, if I were to repeat back to you what you had said to me, in a way, sometimes that person will realize what they said understand didnt make any sense......after it is said back to them. We do this all the time......even on these message boards. Sometimes we take what person has said, put it in quotes, and answer back to them with that. That is the advice being given here.


One compliment that I have to an Atheist is that is sure does take a lot of faith to believe that there isnt a God.

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Svenman wrote


people can believe what they believe, and I doubt these posts will change anything, so don't get too political... This is just gonna turn into flame wars...


Belief's won't rly change unless something happens in there life...



So just chill acts12


Word.....I agree. Later.

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Jesus didn't die for my sins, if he did...then he just wasted his life. Then again history shows he may not have really died on the cross and may even had pre-marital sex.


Who ever said christianity is the first religion is wrong. Jesus was a Jew, so christanity wasn't even invented until after his death when Paul used his death to market his own religion.


The bible is just a story book. Stories were written 10-20 years after Jesus apparently died. Most people can't write a real-time story 2 days after the event, but 20 years? Don't think it would be that accurate. Since religion is all about marketing, it is fair to say most things in the bible if they really did happen were exagerrated to entice it's readers. Let us also not forget that man has altered the original writings including the 10 commandments.


I had a friend that was a minister, he said it is the best raquet he ever got himself into. He had major black market connections too. Anybody can become a minster and hide their sins.


My future x wife has been saved and just made me live in hell being around her. Infact I was going to smack her minister around one day for making some comments to me. I have no respect for any church, most people who worship them just don't know what goes on behind the scenes. Rabbi's sleeping with prostitutes, priests touching young children, ministers putting their hands in everyone's pockets. It is not bad enough that I have to pay for their church and land through my taxes?


Anyway if believing in Jesus helps you sleep at night go for it. Instead of hiding my sins like the saved people...I just lay mine out on the table, that is the only difference between me and them.



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see...You sound like my dad...My own Uncle use to be a preacher and rigged the money from others...NOT all are like that tho...


My church is a lot more diff than AnY church i have EvEr been too...I very much believen the Bible because it was what Lord had to say to us in order for us to get to Heaven. You can believe whatever you wanna believe...My pastur had a father who was preacher as well ...He YES did sin and he tells our church stories all the time..We know him pretty well..Im friends with his Son and our church is more like a family ...everyone knows everyones business lol...


My pastur is so Stuborn and get's in fights occasionally about this very subjject...SoOo...Sorry lol


But yeah i dont know why i said all that its not changing peoples minds...


Its all good...Goodnight yall


SOrry for the "touchy" topic

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Here's my opinion on the whole thing... As we all know, I'm an atheist. To give a little background I was Catholic for a few years, and went to a few Christian churches because I couldn't find any Catholic churches around after moving... a few years later I decided the people in all the churches I visited are really just hypocrits, and religions aren't fair to others... so I stopped and thought, would I rather go to heaven with a bunch of hypocrits or go to hell with the rest of the world? Then I stopped and thought, will believeing in god make a difference in my life and has the idea proven itself to me at all? My answer is no. I don't find a reason to believe in god because it doesn't make me a better person or a worse person. I decided I think most people believe in religion to make themselves feel better, or as bf puts it, "it gives us faith in the future." Well, I don't need that. I believe in myself and that's faith enough for me. I thought hard on saint Anslm's argument on how god exists, and decided that it's utter BS even though people regard him so highly... etc, at the end I came to not believe in god. I worship no one, nothing, and I believe what I see and can prove. If no one knows I exist I can still push someone off the cliff and take a life. If no one knows god exist then he truly doesn't exist... and believers also have to decide which god is the real one. =/


For those who claim your church is different... I've been to more than a dozen churches searching for a good one... the difference between churches is some are really demented and have trailed off into satanism without knowing... others are decent and still aim at helping others, and some are just the big sinner repenting stations.



Eh.. enough ramble from me. What I think about the whole heaven and hell situation... who's going to hell and who's going to heaven...


this guy says it so well so I'll just post what he said. The original can be found on link removed



#301963 +(2497)- [X]


so, at this college there was an extra credit question "Is hell endothermic or exothermic"

this is what one kid wrote:

First, we postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass.

If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave. thereforeeee, no souls are leaving.

As for souls entering hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to hell. Since, there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to hell.

With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant.

So, if hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose (i.e.,Hell is exothermic).

Of course, if hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, than the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over (i.e.,Hell is endothermic).

So which is it? If we accept the postulate given by Ms.Therese Banyan during my freshman year, "That it will be a cold night in hell before I go out with you," and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having a relationship with her, the second case cannot be true. thereforeeee, hell is exothermic.

the kid was the only one who got credit

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To act:


Bible is all about how you read it. The whole book is actually very controversial.. If you spend some time in the old testiments, then the Christian god is more than just a mass murderer. About your comment on not wanting to spend eternity on something you think... have you proven that other religions aren't real yet? The christian churches are so quick to condamn others to hell... I don't think Dalai Lama has ever made a comment like that.


For the rest of my life I will be an atheist... you might ask me, do I truly believe there is no god? Yes. I believe there's no god... reasons I won't share with you. I don't want to be gunned down on the forum or in private just yet. We're all free to believe in whatever.


You might also ask me if one day one of the religions was proved to be true and everyone who doesn't believe in that particular religion is going to hell, what will I do? Nothing. I won't panick about going to hell. If heaven is such a prestegious place for only the selected few who mostly aren't even good people, then I'll happily go to hell. My heart and my soul will lie with the rest of the billions and trillions of people who did not believe in the religion. Hell isn't something to be afraid of if heaven is an unjust place to be.


Have you heard of Brother Jed? He's a fierce Christian advocate who travels around US to pester college students. He came to my campus and I asked him if he has sinned. He responded with "I have sinned before I was saved, but since then I have NEVER sinned and I live my life by the bible, and that's why I am going to heaven and you are going to hell."


Do you think I was outraged by that? Nope... but I can tell you the reason I asked him that, was because less than 10 minutes before I asked him that, I asked him, "If we murder a homosexual to stop him from disobeying god, what do you say about that?" He answers, "I think that is justifiable homicide, and we should kill of all of the homosexuals if they refuse to repent and let go of their gayness. It's a disease and it's a sin, it will spread and make other people's children homosexual too!"


... I wasn't outraged that he told me I'm going to hell but he's going to heaven. I was outraged that he's a woman hater, homosexual hater, he's racist, he hates other religions, and he's so quick to judge others but never judged himself enough. I'm also outraged that he has 5 daughters and he raised them to be just like him. I pity his daughters.


When a religion is about hate instead of love, I lose all my respect for that religion. When the majority of the people in the religion spend their days thinking about what they have to do to get to heaven before others get there, I lose respect for that religion. When a religion actively make people seek out to pester others into sharing their views I despise that religion. If a religion does none of the above, advocate peace and love but condamns no one, then I think they serve a purpose of giving the people who need faith something to fall back on. Still, too bad, I am a stronger person so I don't need that.


Oh... I said I most likely won't defend my position in public unless if I think it's no big deal later. However, if you pm me I also won't defend myself. We're not going to agree on this issue so it's pointless.

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