Being a " F Buddy"

ShySoul · December 31, 2004

Just thinking, are you "30, single, and lost love a few times with no love in sight," or something similar? If so then maybe that's why your taking this attitude. You want love so much but are discouraged by not finding it. So you allow yourself to settle in order to feel something other than the cold lonliness. I can see where your coming from. At 21 and never having even held a girls hand, don't you think I have my weak moments were I want to leap at even the slightest hint of a relationship. There are times that I would like any relationship just so I can feel something and say I've been there. But I won't do that. I believe that all the waiting and all the lonliness and emptyness will be worth it when I do find someone who truly loves and cares about me.

One of the things I was always taught was to never settle. We each deserve the best. Settling for anything less is just throwing in the towel and giving up the fight.

the_tiger_striped_cat · December 31, 2004

god help you man you are clueless...a big part of making a woman happy is not making her feel like an object, like her feelings matter more than her parts do.

What made you think that I make women feel like objects, what makes you think that this girl isn't happy? Couldn't I ask these questions even though she's very satisified? Isn't it possible.

If this is truly your attitide towards sex, it's no wonder you fail at keeping a woman happy for a long period of time.
Who said I keep failing? Ever wonder hear of talking hypothetically?

Tickle don't get mad. I post all over the place here. I've switched names so many times in the past. Just because I'm curious, just because I say different things doesn't mean I'm having problems. The reason I'm so confident after some of the things you've responded to here is because you have no idea how wrong you are. Just keep reading.

the_tiger_striped_cat · December 31, 2004

Just thinking, are you "30, single, and lost love a few times with no love in sight,"

Your way off base. None of it was true. I'm not close to 30. I hope not!

the_tiger_striped_cat · December 31, 2004

By saying nothings wrong with enjoying sex because its there, you lowering the significance of the whole act.

How so? Some may say I'm actually learning more about it for my future partner.

You may actually be making it harder on yourself to find that perfection.
Why commit to a real relationship and everything that comes with it when you can have sex with no strings attached?

Ha ha. You act like I'm a sex addict. Why commit. Because I missing love. That's a great reason to commit right?

And when you do find the perfect person for you, are you going to recognize her, or are you going to be thinking about sex?

Believe it or not, I don't objectify women. I don't even look at them that way. I happen to be with a friend and we both like to have sex, so we do.

A leopard can't change his spots and change is difficult for people. Are you really going to be able to change this attitude and stay faithful or are you going to try to justify sex on the side claiming that you care about the other person so nothings wrong with it. I'm not saying your going too, but that's what you have to consider if your going to treat the topic of sex so carelessly.

The leopard has no spots, your just seeing floaters. I would argue that I'm actually more commited than you are. Not only do I have a gorgeous girl thats a friend that I care about deeply, but I am still mature enough to realize that she is not the one. I need something more. Something that I am willing to wait for, something that makes me not get attached to this girl.

I like some Mint Chip ice cream every now and then. But I usually wait long periods of time before having it.

So it's ok if I wait long periods of time. Well we are sorta doing that actually.

That way when I do have it's a special treat and I can savour it that much more. It's the waiting and anticipation that makes me appreciate and enjoy it so much. If I had ice cream all the time, even the generic brands, it wouldn't taste as good because the rareness of the event is gone. Sex should be a ton more special than ice cream and the specialness caused my the rareness of the moment should be amplified a million times. Having nothing at all may be hard, but it makes the time where finally you do get something memorable.

I AGREE COMPLTELY. You know I give up meat every once in a while, or I'll abstain from various foods, and when I have a hamburger after not having one for a months, MAN IT TASTES GOOD! But neither of us know when were going to find someone to love so now is not the time to abstain. We're both looking, and I'm going speed dating in a couple of weeks, so we may not have much more of this. And believe it or not, I'm not a sex fiend, I don't go to bars looking to get laid, I go a year between sex if not more. So it's ok to hold off on the Mint Chip, but that's because you know you can have it. But when I was in Italy they have this stuff called gelato, you can't find it in the states and I HATE IT because it's sooooo goood. But you better believe when I was there I was eating it every chance I got because I knew I wouldn't have it again for a long time. Boy this ice cream analogy really works well!

I agree with ticklebug, if you keep up this attitude your only going to be hurting your chances with women and a long meaningful relationship. ... You still seem to be caught up on the physical. Look at how many people are trying to dissuade you from this attitude.

Well actually you haven't proved any of this. And appeals to popularity are the most common logical falacies: once upon a time EVERYONE thought it was ok to own a slave.

The fact that your current buddy isn't into it like you are is a sign that it isn't working.

I think that's more because I want it more than she does. But how many happily married guys don't complain about that. Actually, she is happy, we had great phonesex yesterday, and she'll be in town in a week.

But you keep insisting that your correct and even seem to get really defensive about it. When someone argues their point as fiercely as you have, either they are absolutely sure of themselves or they are still trying to convince themselves they are right. In your case, I think it's the latter.

yeah I do have a problem about getting defensive. I'm sorry. I'll try and work on that.

None of us can stop you from continuing as your going, but I'll tell you, it's not going to be easy and you'll have a really hard time finding true love.

Ou contrair, it won't be any harder than before, and not only that, but my soulmate is really going to be happy in bed .

But I have a great idea. This will be a perfect experiement to archive. I'll tell you what. If it ends badly I PROMISE to post on here as a deterant to anyone else in my position. And if it ends well I won't rub it in, but I hope you don't mind if I post up a comment that I found love, because I'm sure I wouldn't be able to contain my happiness.

ShySoul · December 31, 2004

Okay, so your not 30. The age isn't whats important, its the feelings that matter. I think you probably are lonely deep down and are using sex as an escape. It may be suconscious and you don't even realize it, but one day you will.

By feeling the need to dissect my post line by line I get the feeling that you really are in need of self confirmation and convincing yourself that you are right. But if that's how you want to play, it's alright with me.

Your leaning more about your future partner? How? Each person is different and I would you'd want to cater your actions to the individual. Just because something you do pleases one person, doesn't mean it's going to be the same for someone else. Again, it's not the physical act that makes things feel really good, its the emotional connection.

I didn't say you were a sex addict or that you objectify women. The point I was trying to make is that your attitude about sex could get in the way of a future relationship. If theres nothing wrong with having sex because it feels good, and two people want to, your going to be more likely to give into temptation should the situation ever arise. It's more likely you'll take the attitude, "its just sex, there's nothing wrong with it." I'm not saying you will, I'm saying its a danger you have to watch out for.

Thanks for picking at an old saying instead of paying attention to its meaning. If you recognize that this girl isn't right for you, then is it fair to her or you to be having such an intimate act when the intimacy isn't really there? Is it fair to being this with someone you aren't attached to? And how are you more committed than me? I'm saving myself for one person who completes me. When I have sex, I want it to be with someone who I love and who I am pledging myself to for the rest of my life. I'm doing this in a society where sex sells and waiting until marriage is practically nonexistant. If that's not being committed to love and to the right person, I don't know what is.

Ah, I knew you would say that you were waiting long periods of time. Again, your missing the point. If waiting a few months can make a hamburger or ice cream taste good, imagine the sheer bliss waiting until love will have on sex. Your right, none of us knows when we'll find love. It could be five years from know and that's a long time to wait. But it could be tomarrow. Then your whole arrangement could just end up causing problems. Your saying whenever you have the opportunity, pig out. That's called gluttony. There's a reason its one of the seven deadly sins. And the speed dating thing is a better idea, but still not that good.

I'm not saying you are going to have problems. There's a slim chance everything will work out. But the odds of that happening are very very very small. I can't prove it because I can't see into the future and the women you'll meer. But I can tell you the most likely outcome and how most women will react. And pulling up slavery is a move I would make, so you can't catch me on that. Just because alot of people say one thing doesn't make it right but it should at least make you pause and think. Slavery came down to the value of people and how we should treat them. This topic comes down to the value of sex and how we should treat it. Is it something to do because it feels good or is it something to do because of the love and bond between two people?

If you find your soulmate, she'll be happy in bed because of the connection you have, because you are soulmates. It won't be because of all the women you've slept with.

the_tiger_striped_cat · December 31, 2004

Shy please don't be mad at me. And I'm not saying you are. I'm just saying that when two people have opposing beliefs, sometimes the discussion becomes a little heated. I'm sure we are mature enough to discuss this without letting it get out of hand. Here's my response:

Okay, so your not 30. The age isn't whats important, its the feelings that matter. I think you probably are lonely deep down and are using sex as an escape. It may be suconscious and you don't even realize it, but one day you will.

Sure I'll admit to that possibility. Can you admit that maybe everything is fine ?

By feeling the need to dissect my post line by line I get the feeling that you really are in need of self confirmation and convincing yourself that you are right. But if that's how you want to play, it's alright with me.

Or maybe that's how internet discussions go. Go to usenet, they do it all the time.

Your leaning more about your future partner? How? Each person is different and I would you'd want to cater your actions to the individual.

So there's no comminalitys at all, in anyway, among any two people. We are all completely different. I hope you see my point.

Just because something you do pleases one person, doesn't mean it's going to be the same for someone else.

I never said it did.

Again, it's not the physical act that makes things feel really good, its the emotional connection.

But even you admit that the physical act "is really good"

I didn't say you were a sex addict or that you objectify women.

I never said you did.

The point I was trying to make is that your attitude about sex could get in the way of a future relationship. If theres nothing wrong with having sex because it feels good, and two people want to, your going to be more likely to give into temptation should the situation ever arise.

This is non sequitur. I could mentally know the difference between the act and forming a love bond. It does not follow that someone who has a fbuddy at a young age is more likely to cheat on their wife. Or at least I've never ran into that study.

It's more likely you'll take the attitude, "its just sex, there's nothing wrong with it." I'm not saying you will, I'm saying its a danger you have to watch out for.

Danger noted. But I still don't think it follows, I could view cheating with grave implications. My parents were divorced, I know how imporatant it is to find the right person and dedicate yourself to them.

Thanks for picking at an old saying instead of paying attention to its meaning.

???

If you recognize that this girl isn't right for you, then is it fair to her or you to be having such an intimate act when the intimacy isn't really there?

Who said intimacy isn't there?

Is it fair to being this with someone you aren't attached to?

If we both think it's fair, then why wouldn't it be?

And how are you more committed than me?

One might say that if you were in my situation you wouldn't be looking for someone else, you would say everything you just said to me, but that I deny. Let me paraphrase you, "Why look for someone else when you have sex right here?" But in spite of all these "dangers" I'm still--after all these potential relationship killers--still looking for true love. Now that's dedication!

I'm saving myself for one person who completes me.

I may not be saying my virginity, but I am saving my soul.

When I have sex, I want it to be with someone who I love and who I am pledging myself to for the rest of my life.

Ok, that's good for you. Maybe it's just a different way of looking at things? Can you agree with that? Or are you still touting your objective, brute fact viewpoint.

I'm doing this in a society where sex sells and waiting until marriage is practically nonexistant. If that's not being committed to love and to the right person, I don't know what is.

How about if you were as tempted as much as I am to waver but still looking for love?

Ah, I knew you would say that you were waiting long periods of time.

Maybe you can perdict the future . See below

Again, your missing the point. If waiting a few months can make a hamburger or ice cream taste good, imagine the sheer bliss waiting until love will have on sex.

again, you're missing the point. Lets add it up:

1 sex with bliss = 1000 happy points

100 times sex without bliss then sex with bliss = 1000 + 500 happy points

See I'm ahead. I know you'll want to dispute my weight of "happy points" but I think I'm being conservative. This is a bad exampe, but I hope you see my point. You make it sound as if you are in a utopia and I am in a distopia after we find love. Do you really think that after all the sex and finding true love that it will be horrible? Will it be half as good? I mean what would it be? I bet it's going to be almost as good after I'm married as after you are, if not better. I will perform better in bed and I can give my wife better pleasure than if I wasn't learning.

You know I change my mind! I think that if you taste enough gelato you be come a conassour (sp?) and you can learn to make itactually make it! Not only do you have the pleaure but you are able to give it to others (and that's far more important). We're talking into the millions of "happy points" here .

Your right, none of us knows when we'll find love. It could be five years from know and that's a long time to wait. But it could be tomarrow. Then your whole arrangement could just end up causing problems.

You ever see the timex commerical where the guy doesn't bump into his future wife because his watch is a second behind. The commerical says, "he should of had a Timex." You're right, I this relationship COULD mess things up, but so could wearing the wrong watch and I don't think theres a significant difference between the two examples to warrant a change.

Your saying whenever you have the opportunity, pig out. That's called gluttony. There's a reason its one of the seven deadly sins. And the speed dating thing is a better idea, but still not that good.

Not gluttony, gulttony is excessive eating and drinking (I'm serious, look it up). But gluttony is bad because eating and drinking is bad in excess. But 1) I'm not "pigging out" (remember the thing about waiting long amounts of time), and 2) sex isn't bad for you, doctors recommend it 4 times a week.

And you think speed dating is wrong! Oh my gosh, we have to talk about this one!

I'm not saying you are going to have problems. There's a slim chance everything will work out. But the odds of that happening are very very very small.

I think it's better than you think.

I can't prove it because I can't see into the future and the women you'll meer. But I can tell you the most likely outcome and how most women will react. And pulling up slavery is a move I would make, so you can't catch me on that. Just because alot of people say one thing doesn't make it right but it should at least make you pause and think. Slavery came down to the value of people and how we should treat them. This topic comes down to the value of sex and how we should treat it. Is it something to do because it feels good or is it something to do because of the love and bond between two people?

Appeal to popularty is an appeal to popularity, no matter how you say it. Are you saying that people should of thought, "hmm so many people have slaves, maybe slavery is right." Appeals to popularty aren't even meant to get you to think. And why the straw man? I never said sex can't be used BOTH of the ways you listed.

If you find your soulmate, she'll be happy in bed because of the connection you have, because you are soulmates. It won't be because of all the women you've slept with.

Maybe a little bit of column a and a little from column b.

I'm out to go party, so I'll talk to you tomorow. Going to a party to meet lots of girls. And hopefully true love . Wish me luck!

Mun · January 1, 2005

I have a question for Tiger... why is this girl your are seeing not "relationship material" and since you say you are still looking for Love out there.. why do you think you could not fall in love with this one? What's wrong with her? .. and on the same note..

What is wrong with you? Why do you suppose she thinks YOU are not relationship material for her?

Any ideas?

ShySoul · January 1, 2005

I’m not mad at you. If anything, I respect the way your argueing your position. Your making me think about how to defend my case, forcing me to be clear and come up with good arguments. Most people would have given up long ago just to shut me up. You’ve even go the hint of sarcasm at times that I like to use. I just feel passionately about the subject, maybe because I hold such a rare opinion. It gets frustrating that people don’t see my point, but I respect you and anyone else, regardless of our differences.

I have admitted that everything could go fine, I just think the odds are a lot greater that they won’t. And generally I find that when people start dissecting every little comment it descends into a childish argument. Not to say that’s how you are, but that’s usually what I find. And isn’t that committing the same appeal to popularity? Just because that’s what happens on other sites, doesn’t make it right or that you should do it. You can have a good discussion without picking out every little detail.

You didn’t mention how you are learning about the your future partner. The only way I can think of is that you are learning how to please a woman in the bedroom. But that still won’t help you in the rest of the relationship or tell you about the person in general. And if you can’t make the rest of the relationship work, great sex won’t keep you together forever. Yes, there are similarities between people, but each relationship is different. They each have there own complexities and quirks. As much as you think this will help you with a future partner, there will still be lots you have to learn. And part of the fun is in the exploration and learning new things together. You can say past experience helps, but each time is a new experience that differs from the rest.

Yes the physical act feels good, but the emotional act aspect feels better. Having sex without the emotional attachment of a serious relationship is lessening the best part of sex. It can still feel good, but that doesn’t mean it is good. You could know the difference and not cheat. But it makes the temptation easier to give into. It’s like a teenager saying that getting drunk once won’t hurt him. Then the next time they figure, oh nothing happened before so it’s okay to do it again. Each time there resolve is weakened and it becomes easier to give in. You could have tremendous will power and not give in, but in my experience that level of determination is rare. Change is a difficult thing and doesn’t happen over night. There’s a good chance you won’t be able to drop this idea that casual sex between friends is a good idea. And even if you do, I think it shows that the sex wasn’t all that valuable to you. That you were doing it because you were lonely and wanted someone’s touch to keep you warm in the cold night. There may be intimacy, but the level of intimacy between two people are having sex because they enjoy sex and the intimacy between two people who are having sex because they love each other are two completely different things. The latter level far surpasses the former.

I wouldn’t be in the same position as you. I’m looking for true love. That’s love with every aspect – emotional, intellectual, spiritual, and physically. I would be saving the physical until every other piece is in place and that I’m sure it would last. The sex wouldn’t even be a factor. Why would I feel the need to look for someone else if everything I’ve ever hoped for was right in front of me? You may still be looking for true love, but your willing to settle for something on the side. You haven’t fully dedicated yourself to finding that one special person, your mostly commited but are willing to take a break from searching when your in the mood for “fun.” I think true dedication is putting your entire soul into it and never just settling for what’s there or because you have urges. In the face of temptation I wouldn’t give in. I have been tempted before in other regards and held to my viewpoint. Just a few weeks ago I was being tempted to drink alcohol by a large of group of acquitances. You think its easy to not have a sip when everyone is telling you to and are drinking around you? But I still held to my vow of not having alcohol. I would say I’m more committed as I refuse to waver in the slightest. You, on the other hand, are willing to falter every now and then. Just because you say you are looking for true love doesn’t make you committed. Everyone is looking for true. I agree it’s a different way of looking at things. But it’s a way that I can’t see any true value or rationale in. And I’ve tried looking at it from every angle and taking different beliefs into account. I still can’t grasp why sex would be treated so carelessly.

“Happy Points?” Ok, I’ll give you credit for originality but your lacking in substance. I won’t dispute your weight of happy points, I’ll dispute the very use of points. Sex with someone you love cannot be quantified. It cannot be measured. If you want to add weight, it is infinity. No, it is anything you say plus 100. That way it always comes out on top. Add up all the prior sexual experiences you’ve had and it won’t come close to just one time with that right person you are meant to be with for the rest of your life. The pleasure then will be the same, because we would both have found our soulmates. You can have the experience factor, I’ll have the satisfaction of knowing that I’m giving myself to this person completely, in a way that no one else has or ever will experience. Having a thousand of something doesn’t necessarily make you an expert in it. It just as easily could make you tired and bored with it. And who knows, maybe I’ll be a natural when it comes to making love? Or maybe the person won’t care how well I perform, she’ll like it because she’s sharing it with me, the person she loves. Not every basketball player is Michael Jordan and can make the right moves and the best shots. But that doesn’t mean they still can’t play the game pretty good. And again, maybe the exploring and thrill of discovery is just as important as experience.

If you don’t see the difference between this relationship and wearing a watch, you aren’t thinking clearly. Sure, I watch could make you miss an opportunity. But the relationship could mess up the opportunity when its already gotten started and going well. Show me where sex is recommended 4 times a week. And if it is, are they saying with anybody or in a loving monogamous relationship? Maybe gluttony was the wrong word, but how about greediness or just plain excessive? Your problem isn’t that you need sex all the time or that your addicted, its that you are apathetic about having it just because you lonely and in the mood. You can wait long periods of time (maybe because part of you realizes you should wait) but then give in when the urge gets to strong.

I wasn’t trying to make an appeal to popularity. In fact, I tend to be one that steers clear of what’s considered popular, following my own path and what my heart tells me is right. Appeals to popularity used in the wrong way is bad. But what if it’s used to highlight something wrong? The fact that so many people had slaves when it seems to violate the idea of “all men are created equal” should have made people stop and think if it was really right. If they had then followed there hearts they would have seen it wasn’t. The point is, if such a large group of people think one way you need to at least consider they might be right. It doesn’t mean they are, but it gives you something to think about.

Sex can be used in both ways, but only when the love and bond is placed first. The very idea of a buddy places the physical aspect first.

the_tiger_striped_cat · January 1, 2005

I have a question for Tiger... why is this girl your are seeing not "relationship material" and since you say you are still looking for Love out there.. why do you think you could not fall in love with this one? What's wrong with her? .. and on the same note..

What is wrong with you? Why do you suppose she thinks YOU are not relationship material for her?

Any ideas?

Hey muneca, I think a big thing is that she is not at the same place as I am. She's not dumb, but I'm in graduate school and I'm used to meeting professional students. I like people at the same level as me that I can use to make an intellectual connection with.

And I think I'm not a match for her because she's still hung up on her ex. She's basically waiting for him to work out some things with her life, and they have some problems, she's really not sure, and tired of being strung along. But I really don't know for certain, but she is mature enough to know that we are not going to take the relationship to that level.

the_tiger_striped_cat · January 1, 2005

And isn't that committing the same appeal to popularity? Just because that's what happens on other sites, doesn't make it right or that you should do it. You can have a good discussion without picking out every little detail.

Tu shey (ok I know the spelling is wrong on that one ) You are absolutely right, so I'll point you to actual arguments:

xs4all.nl/~wijnands/nnq/nquote.html

You didn't mention how you are learning about the your future partner. The only way I can think of is that you are learning how to please a woman in the bedroom. But that still won't help you in the rest of the relationship or tell you about the person in general. And if you can't make the rest of the relationship work, great sex won't keep you together forever.

I agree. But even if it was only learning about how to please my partner, that's better than nothing at all right? I mean we are basically doing the same things right, except I have this "girl on the side". So I can still read relationship books (I'm on my 3rd), research on this forum, and wikipedia (just looked up attachment theory), and date in the same way you do. So if anything I can at least say that it's not hurting me. If anything, I also will learn how to please a women in the bedroom. But I'm actually learning more about that. I'm learning how to treat her. To realize that she's different than my last gf: she doesn't want sex as much. I'm realizing how to turn her on and how not to say the wrong things. It's interesting to think to myself, "Should I say this, or will she take it the wrong way." I'm actually learning A LOT.

Yes, there are similarities between people, but each relationship is different. They each have there own complexities and quirks. As much as you think this will help you with a future partner, there will still be lots you have to learn. And part of the fun is in the exploration and learning new things together. You can say past experience helps, but each time is a new experience that differs from the rest.

But I think I've established that it doesn't HURT me. But I know you're not saying it won't help at all. I mean isn't there SOMETHING, ANYTHING that I will learn? Is it COMPLETELY useless?

Yes the physical act feels good, but the emotional act aspect feels better. Having sex without the emotional attachment of a serious relationship is lessening the best part of sex. It can still feel good, but that doesn't mean it is good.

Hmmm. I think I see what's wrong now. I think this is what they call in philosophy a philosophical primitive. This is a premise, maxim, axiom, or call it whatever you want. But it's coming down to the axiology (value) of the actual act. You and I disagree here. I say that the act itself is good thing, and you disagree. But both of our positions are groundless. Neither of us can back up this position, I mean how could we? The closest example I can think of is if you tell me I shouldn't do something bad (pick anything you want) and I ask you why, you can't defend that, right? Luckily, people can dialogue because this is a starting point. But in our case, you say "it's not good", and I say "it is good", I can't go anywhere. All I can do is hope that you see my case by saying that I still have an emotional attachment to this person, she is a close friend, but I just don't see a future with her. But if you still can't see that the act alone can be a great thing, the final thing I can say is that, EVEN IF I'm wrong, and it may not be good, you still haven't shown it is bad (and remember we arn't talking about the implications of the act, we are talking about the VERY ACT ITSELF). You might get just as stuck though--it may come down to a assumed premise.

You could know the difference and not cheat. But it makes the temptation easier to give into. It's like a teenager saying that getting drunk once won't hurt him. Then the next time they figure, oh nothing happened before so it's okay to do it again. Each time there resolve is weakened and it becomes easier to give in. You could have tremendous will power and not give in, but in my experience that level of determination is rare.

I don't think it's rare at all. And actually, this is a PERFECT time to test. Can you imagine the temptation I could have to have sex with my fbuddy when I'm actually in a committed, auspicious relationship? It would be far, far greater than if I was married and just happened to meet people. I mean I've had sex with her a bunch of times. Can you see why it's so much more tempting. If I don't give when I still have the possibility to have a booty call any second I want, then why would I when I'm married, and rarely talk to this girl, and don't have a fbuddy connection with anyone else anymore.

Change is a difficult thing and doesn't happen over night. There's a good chance you won't be able to drop this idea that casual sex between friends is a good idea. And even if you do, I think it shows that the sex wasn't all that valuable to you.

Yeah, I won't. Sex between friends is ok if both are mature, and neither is in a committed relationship. It in no way follows that because I'm having sex sans love that I'll want to cheat when I'm actually in a relationships. A guy could have a hundred one night stands and still appreciate the horrors of infidelity. But EVEN IF I'm wrong here, I take this argument to be so marginal and insignificant to be worth the risk for the benefits that I've already discussed.

That you were doing it because you were lonely and wanted someone's touch to keep you warm in the cold night.

Now don't introject your reasons with my situation. I don't have to be lonely at all and still have sex. I hope you don't disagree with that?

There may be intimacy, but the level of intimacy between two people are having sex because they enjoy sex and the intimacy between two people who are having sex because they love each other are two completely different things. The latter level far surpasses the former.

Even if it surpasses it by some astounding margin, it doesn't follow that the intimacy is nonexistent. It's still very significant, still significant enough for us to cuddle, and joke around naked, and have make out sessions, etc. If I have a billion dollars and you have 500 billion, I may not have 500 billion, but HECK I have a BILLION dollars!

I wouldn't be in the same position as you. I'm looking for true love. That's love with every aspect – emotional, intellectual, spiritual, and physically. I would be saving the physical until every other piece is in place and that I'm sure it would last. The sex wouldn't even be a factor. Why would I feel the need to look for someone else if everything I've ever hoped for was right in front of me?

I should snip this, but you need to read it over and understand that I agree with everything you just wrote here.

You may still be looking for true love, but your willing to settle for something on the side. You haven't fully dedicated yourself to finding that one special person, your mostly committed but are willing to take a break from searching when your in the mood for "fun."

Now this doesn't follow at all. Settle? How am I settling? I can pursue love as much, or even more than you are, and still have this FWB on the side. How does one pursue love? One goes out and looks for it, right? You go places, meet people, online dating, SPEED DATING, meet friends, keeping your eye open. I'm sorry, but this is most non sequitur part of your entire argument. You could be at home 24/7 perusing this forum for all I know, and I could be going out every night for all you know. I met two girls last night, and one I actually might see a future with if she wasn't so far away, I'm going to email her after this. But somehow because I have a fbuddy, I'm not pursuing love? I mean doesn't this seem a little absurd to you?

I think true dedication is putting your entire soul into it and never just settling for what's there or because you have urges. In the face of temptation I wouldn't give in. I have been tempted before in other regards and held to my viewpoint. Just a few weeks ago I was being tempted to drink alcohol by a large of group of acquitances. You think its easy to not have a sip when everyone is telling you to and are drinking around you? But I still held to my vow of not having alcohol. I would say I'm more committed as I refuse to waver in the slightest.

I think I MIGHT see where you're coming from? You're outlook on masturbation, alcohol ( you are 21, so it's not legally wrong, right?), and all this talk of temptation makes me think that you are from some charismatic or non-denominational background. If not, you're probably religious. I maybe wrong. But even if you're not, I'll assume it for the moment, because it makes a good example.

IGNORE THE REST OF THIS IF YOU'RE NOT CHRISTIAN: I have friends like you, my best friend actually. We have interesting discussions like this one. I can see where you're coming from, because you have to follow the bible. I used to be the same way, now I do consider myself Christian (although you might say that I'm not), and I didn't drink until I was 21. But after much soul searching I realized something. If Hell does exist, why would I ever choose a path away from god? God is perfect, he is great, everyone wants to go to heaven right? So why would I choose a path away from God? You have two ways of answering this question. 1) I didn't know what I was doing --- but then why would god punish me for something I didn't know was wrong. 2) I knew what I was doing, but why the HECK would I choose a path away from God? Well I must be evil and destined for hell, there is nothing you can do for someone like me--I was born destined for hell. This is a paradox that I have yet to have anyone resolve. It seems that we should want to go to heaven, yet some supposedly don't, and I see no reason why anyone would actively choose to go to hell.

Now realizing this liberated my soul. I view the bible and salvation VERY different now, all because of this simple paradox.

I don't view what I'm doing as giving into temptation. I can give it up if I want to. It's not tempting me. I'm just doing it because I like. Like I like to eat cookies.

You, on the other hand, are willing to falter every now and then.

such a loaded term. I'm not faltering, I'm eating a cookie.

Just because you say you are looking for true love doesn't make you committed. Everyone is looking for true. I agree it's a different way of looking at things. But it's a way that I can't see any true value or rationale in. And I've tried looking at it from every angle and taking different beliefs into account. I still can't grasp why sex would be treated so carelessly.

One of hardest things for a person to do is become truly free. We are all products of everything that happened to us prior to this moment. Free will is either nonexistent, or severely constrained. Amish raise kids who think like Amish. Japanese raise kids who think like Japanese. You could be a Saint or a gas chamber attendant depending on your background. So you probably think this way because of the way you were raised. And I am not immune to this either, all I can do is survey different beliefs, try living like you (I once did) and try living a different and hopefully understanding both. Can you fathom why someone would masturbate? why someone would drink alcohol? why someone would like to have sex without love? Only when you walk 1000 miles in a man's shoes....

"Happy Points?" Ok, I'll give you credit for originality but your lacking in substance. I won't dispute your weight of happy points, I'll dispute the very use of points. Sex with someone you love cannot be quantified. It cannot be measured. If you want to add weight, it is infinity. No, it is anything you say plus 100. That way it always comes out on top. Add up all the prior sexual experiences you've had and it won't come close to just one time with that right person you are meant to be with for the rest of your life.

You really think it's infinity! Wow, that's crazy. Then I wonder why people concentrate on other things, or why people do settle. But you no what, my argument still works if you weight it as infinity. I wish I knew a little decision theory because then I could explain this better. But take both of us before finding love:

Me: Some nonzero number of happy points (as you've admitted)

You: Zero happy points

Now neither of us know if we'll find true love so I'm ahead if we neither of us find true love. The only way you'll be ahead is if you find true love (infinite points) and I don't. If we both find it then we're tied. But as I've established, I am looking for love as hard, if not harder, than you.

The pleasure then will be the same, because we would both have found our soulmates. You can have the experience factor, I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that I'm giving myself to this person completely, in a way that no one else has or ever will experience.

"Satisfaction" huh? Doesn't that sound a little subjective to you? Even a madman can be happier that because of all those 1000s of oil wells he believes he owns. I can have just as much, if not more satisfaction as you, there's no way to judge that.

Having a thousand of something doesn't necessarily make you an expert in it. It just as easily could make you tired and bored with it. And who knows, maybe I'll be a natural when it comes to making love? Or maybe the person won't care how well I perform, she'll like it because she's sharing it with me, the person she loves. Not every basketball player is Michael Jordan and can make the right moves and the best shots. But that doesn't mean they still can't play the game pretty good. And again, maybe the exploring and thrill of discovery is just as important as experience.

Sounds as if your reaching for explanations. I'll give you all of this, because it seems as if your trying to "play the odds" here instead of taking the best path. Because I can equally play the odds as well, as you mentioned.

If you don't see the difference between this relationship and wearing a watch, you aren't thinking clearly. Sure, I watch could make you miss an opportunity. But the relationship could mess up the opportunity when its already gotten started and going well.

So can a watch. What this hypothetical couple was dating for years, and his watch broke and he got hit by a car because it was a second behind?

Show me where sex is recommended 4 times a week. And if it is, are they saying with anybody or in a loving monogamous relationship?

Got you on this one! But I have to admit something HA HA. It was on Opera, and I'll get you the episode number if you want. And it's good for your body regardless of who it is, it could even be with someone you hate!

Maybe gluttony was the wrong word, but how about greediness or just plain excessive? Your problem isn't that you need sex all the time or that your addicted, its that you are apathetic about having it just because you lonely and in the mood. You can wait long periods of time (maybe because part of you realizes you should wait) but then give in when the urge gets to strong.

Please stop saying that I'm lonely or just "in the mood" because it's patently false. I'm not giving in, anymore than you "give in" when you want a cookie.

I wasn't trying to make an appeal to popularity. In fact, I tend to be one that steers clear of what's considered popular, following my own path and what my heart tells me is right. Appeals to popularity used in the wrong way is bad. But what if it's used to highlight something wrong? The fact that so many people had slaves when it seems to violate the idea of "all men are created equal" should have made people stop and think if it was really right. If they had then followed there hearts they would have seen it wasn't. The point is, if such a large group of people think one way you need to at least consider they might be right. It doesn't mean they are, but it gives you something to think about.

No it really doesn't. You should be confirming your knowledge and beliefs all the time regardless of how many people believe in it. If I experience a miracle and it makes me alone believe in God, or if everyone in the world says the world is flat, I should question my beliefs ALL THE TIME, NO MATTER WHAT. The number of people believing something give no added weight to an argument that is the entire notion of. The reason that appeal to popularity is fallacious is because it lends absolutely NO support to an argument, if it did then it wouldn't be a fallacy. Besides, EVEN IF I'm wrong, then you're stuck. You just accused me of an appeal to popularity at the beginning of this post (that I admitted to). So are you wrong here, or there? You can't win both ways!

Sex can be used in both ways, but only when the love and bond is placed first. The very idea of a buddy places the physical aspect first.

???

Mun · January 1, 2005

Hey muneca, I think a big thing is that she is not at the same place as I am. She's not dumb, but I'm in graduate school and I'm used to meeting professional students. I like people at the same level as me that I can use to make an intellectual connection with.

I just want to caution you about arrogance. It can come back to bite you on the behind ---this happened to me. I have more to say but I don't like long winded arguments...I'll save it for later.

Much Love

Switch187 · January 1, 2005

Hey Tiger, I just wanted to interject with a few things I've noticed from this thread (I missed out on the discussion since I was gone on a little vacation with my g/f).

First I noticed you saying that having a fbuddy helps you learn how to please a woman in bed. Although I do agree with ShySoul on how each person is different, I can understand where this is coming from. Like I said, I've had a few fbuddies back in the day, and I thought the same thing. I figured it would help me understand what positions, speeds, "thrust", and so on really turn a girl on, so when I did find my "true love" I would be ready for her. Well it really didn't help at all. ShySoul is right in saying that it is always a "new" experience when it's with someone you truly love. The first time I had sex with my current g/f, it felt like I was having sex for the very first time again (I could have swore I was loosing my virginity to her). All that "prep" work I had from before was pretty much thrown out the window because it didn't make a difference. Sure I knew more about positions and stuff like that, but I still had to "learn" it with her. That was also part of the pure joy of sex with someone you love, it's "learning" together what the other person likes in the bedroom. Sure learning about it "first hand" with someone else may make you think your getting "bonus points" because you already know a few "tricks", but when you find that one girl you truly love, those old "tricks" wont work and you'll really want to spend some time finding some new "tricks" that are just between you and her. All the stuff that you are learning with your fbuddy won't apply to a "real" relationship (I mean with someone you love) because she will act/respond differently than your fbuddy. Fbuddy relationships are very different that "true" relationship, especially the one you have since you both know there is no future. When your with someone who you know you will want a future with, she will respond very differently to the things you say/do that you thought were fine (believe me I know). No it's not completely useless, but it's not completely benificial either. It's kinda in the middle, it can help you in one sense, but in another it can also be a burden. That choice is up to you.

As for your paradox question. Well a lot of people choose to go to Hell. If you choose to reject God and Jesus as your saviour, then your choosing to go to Hell. Sometimes you don't know your walking that dark path until someone comes in a gives you a revelation. Or maybe you wake up one day realizing that the path your walking isn't right anymore. You can argure that God shouldn't punish you for doing something you didn't know was wrong, but when you are leading a life that is wrong then God shows you many "sings" that you need to change. By ignoring those "signs" then you are accepting the blame for what you are doing. Sure you never thought it was wrong so you keep doing it, even after you hear/see all these things that are telling/showing you that it's wrong, but as I said, that was God trying to get you back on the right path. We are all born evil and with sin in our hearts, we are sinners because we are human. It's choosing to save yourself from that sin by accepting God that really "frees" you from everything (including temptation). I don't think I could possibly answer your question in this (or any other thread) since it's something that came from your heart and is something you are trying to deal with. But, yes it's true many people will choose to go to Hell by their own accord, it's very confusing and unbelievable at times, but it's true. You may think that no one will activily choose a path away from God, but some of us do it everyday, unintentionally, and as long as you can notice that you are on the wrong path and need to change, that's all you need to do to help you get back on the right path. remember God gave humanity free will so they can activly choose what path they want without His interferience, but He will be on the sideline watching you every step of the way.

As far as this debate is going, you know that there is no right or wrong answer for this. As I said, yes some of these relationships can last for a long time, but (even as you have said) they all come to an end eventually. This is why some people view a fbuddy as a waste, since you know it's going to end eventually, why waste your time (and body) on this . It's like when people smoke. Yeah they know it's bad for them (I used to smoke for about 12 years, and I have asthma to top it off) and some people will say "Well I'm going to die anyways, why not enjoy myself while I'm here?", which sounds like the same approach you have towards sex with a friend. The pro's and con's can be argued for days on end with no end result anywhere in sight, and neither side can say they were the rigth one. If it works it works, that fine and enjoy it if that's what you want for yourself. Others don't want that for themself (no matter how many doctors tell them that having sex would be healthy, they still wont change their minds) and that's also fine for them. I've been on both sides of this fence which is why I can say that there really is no way of getting around this. Yeah it was fun while it lasted, but it had to end. During the times I didn't want those "relationships" I felt better and more "whole" than before. So Tiger best of luck with the speed dating, I hope you do well, and best of luck with your "friend", when things do come to an end hopefully it isn't "ugly" (I had a few that were like yours, but when it came to end they 180'd on me and things were really bad).

the_tiger_striped_cat · January 2, 2005

Thanks for your input. I agree with most of what you said, but remember I view more like eating a cookie than smoking. Sex isn't bad for you like smoking, or eating a cookie. So it's more like the same reason you eat sweets. That's why I do it, and it's much much more because remember I do have an intimate connection with this girl, I just don't think there is a future.

But I did have to talk about my "paradox" because your confusing the issue like many before you have:

As for your paradox question. Well a lot of people choose to go to Hell. If you choose to reject God and Jesus as your saviour, then your choosing to go to Hell. Sometimes you on't know your walking that dark path until someone comes in a gives you a revelation.

don't know=ignorance

ignorance=how can you be cupable in the eyes of God, you didn't do anything wrong.

Or maybe you wake up one day realizing that the path your walking isn't right anymore. You can argure that God shouldn't punish you for doing something you didn't know was wrong, but when you are leading a life that is wrong then God shows you many "sings" that you need to change. By ignoring those "signs" then you are accepting the blame for what you are doing.

Are the signs obvious or not? If they're not then you can consider this ignorance. If they are obvious then why the HECK would you choose to ignore these signs? I mean we are talking ETERNAL SALVATION here! I can't fathom why someone would CHOOSE hell!

But, yes it's true many people will choose to go to Hell by their down accord, it's very confusing and unbelievable at times, but it's true. You may think that no one will activily choose a path away from God, but some of us do it everyday, unintentionally, and as long as you can notice that you are on the wrong path and need to change, that's all you need to do to help you get back on the right path.

unintentionally=ignorance

Now I've discussed this with other people before, and those that refuse to accept this paradox (which I believe does have a solution) will only confuse the issue. They'll try and dance around the idea getting into free will, how you make the choice (choice of the sprit), or many, many other ways that only confuse the issue. No matter how you slice it, here's how it goes:

1) The choice towards God is the CORRECT choice.

2) Yet some make the WRONG choice.

I don't see how you can dispute these premises. But, why would you make the wrong choice? It doesn't make any sense. There are only two mutually exclusive, collective exhaustive conclusions that are both unacceptable to SOME Christians:

1) You knew what you were doing and made the WRONG choice.

2) You didn't know what you were doing.

In 1) you made the wrong choice yet knew you were going to hell. Only those that want to go to hell make the wrong choice. As if you were destined to go to Hell.

In 2) you are truly ignorant that you are really going to Hell. If you really did know the full implicaitons then you probably would have made different choices to make the right CHOICE.

ShySoul · January 3, 2005

Um, did you look at what the link said? It said that quoting a person should be used as a starting point, to highlight certain things. Too much quoting isn’t a good thing and actually hurts your case. You are quoting everything I say, which is a tad bit excessive, wouldn’t you say? I don’t need to be constantly reminded of what I said before, if I’m into the discussion then I’ll remember. Or at worse I can just scroll up a bit and look over the post I made. Quoting every sentence seems like a waste of space, I already know what I said. Just get down to your argument.

I think Switch did a great job addressing the issue of learning about your future partner and how each time is a new experience, like it’s the first time all over again. I agree with him and will leave it at that. And since he has been in your position, I’d listen to him. While I’m speaking mainly from a moral standpoint, he has reached a lot of the same conclusions from experience, the same experiences as you.

So, I’m saying sex is good not because of the act but because of the emotional connection involved. You are saying that sex is good because of the basic physical act. Thank you for finally getting that distinction down. I could defend my case by showing that the act is never what is truly important, that there is always a driving force behind it that gives it value. Then you couldn’t say that the act itself is what is good, that there has to be something more important that causes the act. I get an A on a paper. Is the A what is important? Or is that just the end result of my determination and hard work to do the best I can? I do some volunteer work. Is the actual work what is important? Or is it a product of my desire to help others and make the world a better place? Likewise, the act of sex isn’t what’s important. It’s the reason behind the sex that makes it good. Any man and woman can have sex, but that doesn’t make it good. I don’t think a rape victim is getting any enjoyment from the act. Yes, I know that you said you have an emotional attachment to her. But if you don’t see a future together, then the emotional attachment isn’t that strong, at least not as strong as it should be to provide truly good sex. And it is that emotional attachment that drives sex, the actual physical act is only a by-product of the emotions felt, whether it be love or lust.

Even if it may be more tempting to have sex with the buddy when you are in a relationship, why are you looking at this as a good thing? Your looking at it as if resisting the temptation is some kind of grand declaration of love that proves how much you care about this future partner. But why even put yourself in a position where there is such a strong temptation? This way there is a chance you will give in. I mean, you admit you could go to her whenever you want. And you do give into the urge sometime, even if you say its not often. If you never had such an arrangement to begin with, there would be no urge and no chance of giving into temptation. The best way to avoid a problem is too never put yourself in a position where it could become a problem. By having this arrangement you are creating the possibility for a problem that otherwise wouldn’t exisit.

No, you don’t have to be lonely to have sex. But what other reason do you have? You admit its not for love. I don’t think its because you want a child. You could say its for the physically act, and I’ve already addressed why I don’t think that’s the case. I’ve always been complimented on how I’m a good judge of character and can usually read peoples motivations pretty well. This is just my opinion based on everything you’ve said and the way you’ve said it, so there’s no reason to get upset or snippy. I have the right to voice my opinion, if you don’t like it then just ignore it. But I do think there are deeper feelings that you are not ready to deal with yet. That’s why you said you defensive quickly, why you feel like you have to so vehemently defend your position and pick apart every piece of my posts.

I didn’t say intimacy wouldn’t exisit. I said that the level of intimacy is so far apart that it might as well be. Since you like to use numbers, I’d say the correct proportion would be 500 billion to 1 dollar. If you really think that one dollar is worth it, go ahead. Maybe you can use it to buy that cookie your always talking about. Plus its intimacy for the wrong reasons, and as I’ve said the motivation is what drives the act.

The very notion of a sex buddy is someone you turn to for sex. There isn’t the emotional attachment or love, it is the need for sex that determines the relationship. The physical act is coming first and is precedent. I wouldn’t be in your position because I value the love and spiritual factor as being most important. Since you are in this arrangement, the physical element is at least of equal concern, if it wasn’t then you’d be able to wait until true love, or at least a real relationship.

You may be pursuing love with your actions, by going out meeting people online dating, etc. But you are not pursuing it with your full heart and soul. If you were you wouldn’t be needing this buddy. You’d recognize that what your longing for can never be found in this relationship and that it’s a waste of time as it can never be truly fulfilling. And you are just settling. You are settling for a physical relationship with someone who admittedly you don’t care about in that special way.

For your information, I was raised Catholic but have developed my own set of values by incorporating what I saw as the main points of all religion and by listening to what my heart and consciousnce tells me is right. I discussed my views on this in a post a couple weeks ago, and I don’t feel like reiterating the whole discussion now, so if you want to know my believes on God, etc., look back through my posts. I don’t like to label myself or make claims to being in any group. What I say, I say because I believe it completely. And I’ve always had these beliefs; as far back as I can remember.

As for your paradox, its simple. You choose the path not because you are evil and destined from hell, but because you are human and make mistakes. No one is completely evil and destined for hell. We are all good people at heart. But because we are not perfect and because of our free will, we make mistakes. Some people have a hard time facing up to their mistakes because they are scared of the consequences. They refuse to take responsibility for their actions. People like this can fall into a pattern of repeating there actions and thus keep doing things that are wrong but never admitting to it. Or they make some mistakes that is so big they have to do something else wrong to cover it up. Your not intentionally choosing the path, you made a mistake that snowballed until it got out of control and you were on the wrong path. Even then, you have the option to turn things around. You may never be able to make everything right, but that’s not the point. The point is you see what you did was wrong and are willing to change. Also, God does not send people to hell. I personally don’t even prescribe to hell even though I do believe in God. God is loving and wouldn’t allow others that kind of suffering.

Becoming free isn’t as hard as you think, what constrains us is the notion that its so difficult. Free will isn’t constrained and it isn’t something people just made up. We are free to make every decision in our lives. And if we aren’t we can at least choose how we respond to it. Plenty of people go against the way they were raised and do so by choice because they don’t believe in what they were taught. That’s how certain customs become lost through time, because more and more people decide not to do as there parents did. You know nothing about how I was raised. In fact, I’ve seen a lot of things that directly contradict my values. I don’t have to walk a mile in someone elses shoes, I’ve seen them walk the mile themselves and fall flat on there face. I can understand why someone would do these things, I’ve seen it from people I care about and are close too. Alcohol, drugs, sex without love… seen it. And it never turns out well. And I always try to look at why people do the things they do. From my experience, these actions stem from loneliness, lack of self confidence, lack of will power, desire to fit in and be wanted, etc. There is always a deeper emotional reason; it is never just because they wanted to or because they were raised that way. I’ve seen a lot of hardships and could have turned out really messed up. But I told myself I wasn’t go to be a product of my raising, I was going to be a product of my own heart and determination. I could have given in but I didn’t. The final choice was mine.

Again, you missed the point. Let me clarify, sex period (not just with someone you love) can not be quantified. I’ve always like math, so working with numbers is something I enjoy. But some things in life can’t be reduced to mere numbers. And even if you want to, numbers can easily manipulated. I did a report on Enron a month ago and they pulled out every trick in the book to manipulate there numbers. They made it appear that they were coming out ahead when they really had a huge loss. Maybe you are doing the same thing? Maybe you’re trying to make out like you end up ahead when really there is nothing there. When sex is with someone you truly love, the rest of the times become meaningless. So we would be equal them. Or maybe the specialness of waiting will be enough to out weigh all your past encounters. I’ll have a tidal wave of pent up love and passion to give. I’ll savor each touch. To you, it will be another round, time to do what pleased that other girl.

I wasn’t reaching for explanations. I’m saying that there are many variables and that just because you have experience doesn’t make you an expert. The main point is that the experience isn’t what matters, the emotional bond that I would share with the person is more powerful than any level of experience and that is what would make the act great. I’m not trying to play the odds because I realize that love isn’t a casino game. There are no odds to be played. When you are with someone you truly love and will be with for the rest of your life, it is that connection that makes sex the special thing it is suppose to be. It ceases to be just a physical act and it becomes “making love.”

Sex is good for you with someone you hate. I’ve got witnesses to the contrary. I know people who have had sex with someone they hate. It wasn’t good for anybody. And it doesn’t matter if it’s good for the body because the damage to the soul can be far worse. And in turn, the damage to the soul can cause damage to the body making the benefits you received worthless.

Lastly, say you were convinced that your life wasn’t worth living and that you needed to take a gun and shoot yourself. Are you telling me that you shouldn’t listen to all the people telling you that it is not the right things to do? In that case there is an entire section about suicide on this site that is worthless. Yes, you should be questioning your beliefs on your own. But sometimes people get so caught up in there own feelings and emotions that they can’t think straight. A dozen people who are thinking clearly saying that killing yourself isn’t the answer, is something that should be listened to. I’m not saying it is evidence, I’m saying you should at least consider what other people say. Also, it can give more weight to the argument. One person saying don’t’ kill yourself can easily be brushed aside. But the more you hear something, the more it gets stuck in your head and you remember and think about it. True, this could be used the wrong way, which is why you should always have other, more logical arguments to support yourself. These arguments have been what everyone has said.

Ok, since I doubt we’ll ever reach agreement I purpose a truce. We’ve both said our piece and know where the other is coming from. Lets end this peacefully. That way tempers won’t have a chance to flare, we won’t end up going in circles forever, and people won’t be annoyed by our back and forth banter. If you really want to respond to anything I’ve said, please don’t don’t do I series of quote. Try a paragraph with your main point of contention. After that any one who reads this can decide what they believe on there own.

Switch187 · January 3, 2005

Well Tiger I wasn't comparing sex to smoking, just the mentality some people have. I to agree that sex is great and healthy and all that other stuff your sex experts say, especially since I'm having sex with a person that I truly love and care about. Yeah sex for you is good too without all those feelings, but the sex your having is meaningless because you know that it's going to end. Yeah my relationship can end too, but because were thinking about a future together and sharing these emotions/feelings with each other, that doesn't come to mind. You, on the other hand know there is a end so you don't really get to experience these same things to the fullest. That's the mentality of most smokers. They say "yeah I'm going to die anyways, so I'm just going to enjoy it while I can". And you say (concerning sex with your friend) "Yeah I know it's going to end one day, but I might as well enjoy it while it lasts". See the similarity. That's all I was trying to say. If you know it's going to end, why waste your time? Sure it feels good and you know that it's something that is "good" for you, but is that reason enough to do something that is practically pointless (since it will end)? You don't have to answer these or anything like that, I just wanted to explain why I used the smoking reference in my previous post.

As for the paradox thing. Yeah I'm sure I confused thigns because sometimes it's hard for me to really put down my thoughts on a keyboard, especially when it's late and I'm tired. But you keep saying that you shouldn't/can't be blamed for your ignorance, yet we do it all the time. Doing something wrong, is still doing something wrong whether you knew it or not. Ignorance can't be blamed since once you do find out you did wrong, most people will repent/apolagize for their actions. Your always responsible for what you do no matter what, even if you didn't know the consenquences. Think about when you were a young child and didn't know that throwing a soccer ball at someones head is the wrong thing to do (I didn't ). Usually an adult will come by and say "Hey you shouldn't do that", or "That's not a nice thing to do" right? Maybe you don't see these people as an obvious sign to stop, or you do choose to ignore them because your having fun, whatever the case you proceed to do it again. So the next thing that happens is your in the principles office and he's telling you your in trouble for what you did. When you say "Well I didn't know it was wrong" he can turn around and say "What about those people I sent to you to warn you about it?". Oh yeah, so the first thing out of your mouth is "sorry". God can act in the same way to those who are on the wrong path. Maybe those signs can't always be seen as obvious, maybe some are ignored, but when you come to God he will say "Why did you do those things?" and if you say "Well I didn't know", God can also turn and say "What about these signs I sent you?".

Everyone makes the wrong choices sometimes, as said before, it's part of being human. All humans were born destined to go to Hell because all humans are born with sin in their heart. That's why people need to ask for God to come into their heart's, and forgive them because they are a sinner. The ignorance factor wont work because it never can, if it could people would try to get away with murder because they didn't know any better. But even there God has made his rule really clear (by not just making it a Commandment, but making it a crime all accross the world). I know I'm probably still not making any sense at all (long day of work, long night of healthy sex) so I should just stop it now. I need to start responding during the day when I'm awake.

Mun · January 3, 2005

Hi Everyone,

I want to ask that you please stay on topic and not make this about sin and religion. Some people don't believe in God...so it's a useless argument.

Also just a reminder to be respectful of others...this thread is getting pretty close to flamming and it won't be tolerated. You have a good debate, let's not make this personal.

Mun

the_tiger_striped_cat · January 4, 2005

Um, did you look at what the link said? It said that quoting a person should be used as a starting point, to highlight certain things. Too much quoting isn't a good thing and actually hurts your case. You are quoting everything I say, which is a tad bit excessive, wouldn't you say? I don't need to be constantly reminded of what I said before, if I'm into the discussion then I'll remember. Or at worse I can just scroll up a bit and look over the post I made. Quoting every sentence seems like a waste of space, I already know what I said. Just get down to your argument.

What you were referring to is called snipping. If you wan't me to snip more parts of your quotes then I can do that. But after rereading your quotes, it's seems like you're annoyed because I'm replying to all your points. And the article says you can snip posts when appropiate, but for a debate we can look at another resource (I have many) that says:

"This set of characteristics leads naturally toward a preference for the traditional Internet (geek/academic/Usenet) style of using carefully trimmed quotes followed by the reply. This allows point-by-point inline rebuttals, minimizes bandwidth use, is a format well-suited for digesting and archiving, and minimizes the ability of various mail programs to mangle an entire thread."

My response is ENTIRELY self contained, even someone that wasn't familiar with the discussion can see what I was referring to. But EVEN IF I'm wrong--that bottom posting is the way to go--you definitely haven't shown that it's wrong. It may just be arbitrary. I know it my not jive with your personal preference, but you haven't given me any evidence that I shouldn't do this besides the retorcial response, "...a tad bit excessive, wouldn't you say?" Actually, this makes so much sense that Google decided to revamp their google groups to discussion format:

I think Switch did a great job addressing the issue of learning about your future partner and how each time is a new experience, like it's the first time all over again. I agree with him and will leave it at that. And since he has been in your position, I'd listen to him. While I'm speaking mainly from a moral standpoint, he has reached a lot of the same conclusions from experience, the same experiences as you.

I hope this isn't an appeal to popularity. I mean, Switch and I went through the same things and we came to different conclusions. Why is his opinion more valueable, because it agrees with yours?

So, I'm saying sex is good not because of the act but because of the emotional connection involved. You are saying that sex is good because of the basic physical act. Thank you for finally getting that distinction down. I could defend my case by showing that the act is never what is truly important, that there is always a driving force behind it that gives it value. Then you couldn't say that the act itself is what is good, that there has to be something more important that causes the act. I get an A on a paper. Is the A what is important? Or is that just the end result of my determination and hard work to do the best I can? I do some volunteer work. Is the actual work what is important? Or is it a product of my desire to help others and make the world a better place? Likewise, the act of sex isn't what's important. It's the reason behind the sex that makes it good. Any man and woman can have sex, but that doesn't make it good. I don't think a rape victim is getting any enjoyment from the act.

I think you're confusing the issue. Of coure the A can be good to the person! Don't you susppose there is someone out there that could care less about learning, and only wants go get into the good school.

Yes, I know that you said you have an emotional attachment to her. But if you don't see a future together, then the emotional attachment isn't that strong, at least not as strong as it should be to provide truly good sex. And it is that emotional attachment that drives sex, the actual physical act is only a by-product of the emotions felt, whether it be love or lust.

So you're saying that what is required for sex to be meaningful is that someone sees a future with the other person. So seeing a future is a necessary condition to valueable sex? So if we compare two couples:

Couple 1) Sees a future with the person, but the sex is HORRIBLE, I mean everything goes wrong, she has physical pain the next day, he develops psychological issues, they both regret having sex so early, she might be pregnant, and worst of all the sex is COMPLETELY selfish between the two fo them etc. Make it as bad as you possibily can, but they see a future.
Couple 2) Have a strong emotional connection, they care deeply for each other, they would gladly do anything for each other, they are in the sex only to see the other person feel good. The sex is COMPLETELY altruistic. Moreover the sex is AMAZING, MINDBLOWING.

now you're telling me that Couple 1) still has meaningful sex simply for the fact that they see a future with each other? Indeed this is the only thing I lack from my fbuddy relatonship.

Even if it may be more tempting to have sex with the buddy when you are in a relationship, why are you looking at this as a good thing? Your looking at it as if resisting the temptation is some kind of grand declaration of love that proves how much you care about this future partner. But why even put yourself in a position where there is such a strong temptation?

For the other benifits. I eat cookies because I think my enjoyment from them trumps the health risks (too much fat, hyperglycimia, etc.)

This way there is a chance you will give in. I mean, you admit you could go to her whenever you want. And you do give into the urge sometime, even if you say its not often. If you never had such an arrangement to begin with, there would be no urge and no chance of giving into temptation. The best way to avoid a problem is too never put yourself in a position where it could become a problem. By having this arrangement you are creating the possibility for a problem that otherwise wouldn't exisit.

Again, in my mind the problem is ittsy bitsy, but the rewards are very great indeed.

No, you don't have to be lonely to have sex. But what other reason do you have? You admit its not for love. I don't think its because you want a child. You could say its for the physically act, and I've already addressed why I don't think that's the case. I've always been complimented on how I'm a good judge of character and can usually read peoples motivations pretty well. This is just my opinion based on everything you've said and the way you've said it, so there's no reason to get upset or snippy. I have the right to voice my opinion, if you don't like it then just ignore it. But I do think there are deeper feelings that you are not ready to deal with yet. That's why you said you defensive quickly, why you feel like you have to so vehemently defend your position and pick apart every piece of my posts.

Ok here's the deal. I'm going to keep replying in the same manner, because I think it's effecient. But I PROMISE, PROMISE, PROMISE, that I am not taking offense. How can I prove it to you? Maybe we could start the posts with some friendly banter, to add some levity to the gravity that occurs in discussions like these. Maybe something like this:

ShySoul how was your new years? I had a great time! I went out and met a couple of girls. I knew them for a while before, but we danced all night. I really like this oen girl but she's so far away. I sent her an email, so I hope she responds. Actually, one of the other girls wanted me to keep her warm so i was hugging her, but I really wanted to be huggint this other girl.

Maybe we can start out with something like that? Socrates was such a great philospher because he didn't let things get to him. And if you read some of his "works" or Plato's dilogues you'll see that they always BSed before debating something. Maybe we should try it. It woudl keep the modarators at bay.

I didn't say intimacy wouldn't exisit. I said that the level of intimacy is so far apart that it might as well be. Since you like to use numbers, I'd say the correct proportion would be 500 billion to 1 dollar. If you really think that one dollar is worth it, go ahead. Maybe you can use it to buy that cookie your always talking about. Plus its intimacy for the wrong reasons, and as I've said the motivation is what drives the act.

HA HA! Do I talk about the cookie that much. I don't know why. I just think it is a good analogy. But Now you make me feel bad about using the example previously But to your point, I think you're wrong. It's truly subjective anyways, so there's not much more to say on this point, but I'll trust that the two couples are separated by an intemacy level factor of 500,000,000,000. And I think other's in the fourm probably would agree with me.

The very notion of a sex buddy is someone you turn to for sex. There isn't the emotional attachment or love, it is the need for sex that determines the relationship. The physical act is coming first and is precedent. I wouldn't be in your position because I value the love and spiritual factor as being most important. Since you are in this arrangement, the physical element is at least of equal concern, if it wasn't then you'd be able to wait until true love, or at least a real relationship.

I could be in it for the closeness right? I mean, say I didn't care about the sex that much, but I cared about the intimacy, but I didn't see a future with this girl. I mean that's plausable right? Actually, that's why I held that girl on new years, I liked the closeness. I wasn't going to go anywher with here, but it felt really good to be close to a woman again.

You may be pursuing love with your actions, by going out meeting people online dating, etc. But you are not pursuing it with your full heart and soul. If you were you wouldn't be needing this buddy. You'd recognize that what your longing for can never be found in this relationship and that it's a waste of time as it can never be truly fulfilling. And you are just settling. You are settling for a physical relationship with someone who admittedly you don't care about in that special way.

I think this sounds a little off. I'll say it again. If I go out and do everything: speed dating, online dating, meeting people, and you just stayed at home all day, somehow I'm the one not pursuing love. I'm not settling in any way, shape or form. You're just equating sex=settling which doesn't make sense at all.

For your information, I was raised Catholic but have developed my own set of values by incorporating what I saw as the main points of all religion and by listening to what my heart and consciousnce tells me is right. I discussed my views on this in a post a couple weeks ago, and I don't feel like reiterating the whole discussion now, so if you want to know my believes on God, etc., look back through my posts. I don't like to label myself or make claims to being in any group. What I say, I say because I believe it completely. And I've always had these beliefs; as far back as I can remember.

Good. Then we share many similar beliefs.

As for your paradox, its simple. You choose the path not because you are evil and destined from hell, but because you are human and make mistakes. No one is completely evil and destined for hell. We are all good people at heart. But because we are not perfect and because of our free will, we make mistakes. Some people have a hard time facing up to their mistakes because they are scared of the consequences. They refuse to take responsibility for their actions. People like this can fall into a pattern of repeating there actions and thus keep doing things that are wrong but never admitting to it. Or they make some mistakes that is so big they have to do something else wrong to cover it up. Your not intentionally choosing the path, you made a mistake that snowballed until it got out of control and you were on the wrong path. Even then, you have the option to turn things around. You may never be able to make everything right, but that's not the point. The point is you see what you did was wrong and are willing to change. Also, God does not send people to hell. I personally don't even prescribe to hell even though I do believe in God. God is loving and wouldn't allow others that kind of suffering.

It's not simple at all. My point is that if you make mistakes, then it's not your fault. And sure God doesn't send you to Hell, but he allows you to go to Hell even though you didn't do anything wrong (remember it's not your fault, it was just a mistake.)
Now if you don't believe in Hell then that's a different story. But the paradox still stands. Like I said my paradox was what many Bible believing Christians would have to deal with.
But do you believe in Heaven? If so, do you believe in Universal Salvation. I'm not judging, just asking.

Becoming free isn't as hard as you think, what constrains us is the notion that its so difficult. Free will isn't constrained and it isn't something people just made up. We are free to make every decision in our lives. And if we aren't we can at least choose how we respond to it. Plenty of people go against the way they were raised and do so by choice because they don't believe in what they were taught. That's how certain customs become lost through time, because more and more people decide not to do as there parents did. You know nothing about how I was raised. In fact, I've seen a lot of things that directly contradict my values. I don't have to walk a mile in someone elses shoes, I've seen them walk the mile themselves and fall flat on there face. I can understand why someone would do these things, I've seen it from people I care about and are close too. Alcohol, drugs, sex without love… seen it. And it never turns out well. And I always try to look at why people do the things they do. From my experience, these actions stem from loneliness, lack of self confidence, lack of will power, desire to fit in and be wanted, etc. There is always a deeper emotional reason; it is never just because they wanted to or because they were raised that way. I've seen a lot of hardships and could have turned out really messed up. But I told myself I wasn't go to be a product of my raising, I was going to be a product of my own heart and determination. I could have given in but I didn't. The final choice was mine.

Actually you're dealing with a problem that is one of the hardest problems in philosophy. There are various questions to deal with.

1) I am not free to fly. So obviously I'm not COMPLETELY FREE.
2) If free will is completely determined by the past--you chose to believe in a certain conception of God because of things you were exposed to--how could it be that you could have ever had made the same choice had the circumstances been different. Can you honestly tell me that some buddist monk atop a mountain in Tibet will believe in your conception of God simply because he "chose to" (lets assume that he has all the necessary information at hand). If so, why doesn't he? I mean, he came to vastly different conclusions than you. And if your answer is the correct one, then it doesn't make much sense that he wouldn't obviously pick the correct answer: yours.

This is just an extreme example of a deeper problem. Like I said, you could have been a Saint or a gas chamber attendant, depending on your background. There's a reason most killers come from the Ghetto, there's a reason why Pakistan is 99% Muslim, and there is a reason why you believe the way you do, and it's entirely possible that it has nothing to do with free will (although I'm not sure myself). But in the very least it is entirely consistant that everything is COMPLETELY determined, and the world would look exactly the same.

3) There's also a problem of determinism on a quantum level. Even if one appeals to quantum mechanics's indeterminism this doesn't seem to pose the problem. You've only introdused randomness. Randomness doesn't imply free will. But it would be crazy if every synapse firing in your brain was determined or random. I'm not sure.

Again, you missed the point. Let me clarify, sex period (not just with someone you love) can not be quantified. I've always like math, so working with numbers is something I enjoy. But some things in life can't be reduced to mere numbers. And even if you want to, numbers can easily manipulated. I did a report on Enron a month ago and they pulled out every trick in the book to manipulate there numbers. They made it appear that they were coming out ahead when they really had a huge loss. Maybe you are doing the same thing? Maybe you're trying to make out like you end up ahead when really there is nothing there. When sex is with someone you truly love, the rest of the times become meaningless. So we would be equal them. Or maybe the specialness of waiting will be enough to out weigh all your past encounters. I'll have a tidal wave of pent up love and passion to give. I'll savor each touch. To you, it will be another round, time to do what pleased that other girl.

Well I guess this is one of those points where we have assumptions that neither of us can prove. But again my example:

Couple 1) Sees a future with the person, but the sex is HORRIBLE, I mean everything goes wrong, she has physical pain the next day, he develops psychological issues, they both regret having sex so early, she might be pregnant, and worst of all the sex is COMPLETELY selfish between the two fo them etc. Make it as bad as you possibily can, but they see a future.
Couple 2) Have a strong emotional connection, they care deeply for each other, they would gladly do anything for each other, they are in the sex only to see the other person feel good. The sex is COMPLETELY altruistic. Moreover the sex is AMAZING, MINDBLOWING.

I REALLY find it hard to believe that somehow that Couple 2's sex was meaningless while couple 1's sex was somehow infinitely good.

I wasn't reaching for explanations. I'm saying that there are many variables and that just because you have experience doesn't make you an expert. The main point is that the experience isn't what matters, the emotional bond that I would share with the person is more powerful than any level of experience and that is what would make the act great. I'm not trying to play the odds because I realize that love isn't a casino game. There are no odds to be played. When you are with someone you truly love and will be with for the rest of your life, it is that connection that makes sex the special thing it is suppose to be. It ceases to be just a physical act and it becomes "making love."

I'll just appeal to what I said above.

Sex is good for you with someone you hate. I've got witnesses to the contrary. I know people who have had sex with someone they hate. It wasn't good for anybody. And it doesn't matter if it's good for the body because the damage to the soul can be far worse.

I was talking about the body not the soul. That was the point.

And in turn, the damage to the soul can cause damage to the body making the benefits you received worthless.

Eesshh. I have no idea how you can show me "soul damage".

Lastly, say you were convinced that your life wasn't worth living and that you needed to take a gun and shoot yourself. Are you telling me that you shouldn't listen to all the people telling you that it is not the right things to do? In that case there is an entire section about suicide on this site that is worthless.

What if everyone told you to jump of a bridge, would you do it? What if everyone told you to kill yourself, are you telling me that you SHOULD actually listen to those people that are telling you that it's ok. I know you'll say that they are not saying that, but that's the entire point. If someone comes in here and says they want to kill themselves, and then 2 people say don't do it, and 4 say do it, you don't listen to what's popular. You don't kill yourself because of WHAT they say, not because of how many people say it. Are you telling me the suicide forum is suddenly useless if there was only ONE professional responding to all the posts?

Yes, you should be questioning your beliefs on your own. But sometimes people get so caught up in there own feelings and emotions that they can't think straight. A dozen people who are thinking clearly saying that killing yourself isn't the answer, is something that should be listened to. I'm not saying it is evidence, I'm saying you should at least consider what other people say. Also, it can give more weight to the argument. One person saying don't' kill yourself can easily be brushed aside. But the more you hear something, the more it gets stuck in your head and you remember and think about it. True, this could be used the wrong way, which is why you should always have other, more logical arguments to support yourself. These arguments have been what everyone has said.

If appeal to popularity lends any credience to an argument WHATSOEVER it is no longer a fallacy. If you were correct then the following could ALWAYS occur:

-"Smoking is OK, everyone is doing it."
+"It's not OK, look at all the health risks, that's an appeal to popularity."
-"I'm not talking about the ATP fallacy, I'm referring to the fact that it should at least 'make you think'.

You have just undone the hard resarch of 1000s of logicians and philosophers.

You have to at least concede to this. I know you're wrong in this case. Check it out:
link removed

Ok, since I doubt we'll ever reach agreement I purpose a truce. We've both said our piece and know where the other is coming from. Lets end this peacefully. That way tempers won't have a chance to flare, we won't end up going in circles forever, and people won't be annoyed by our back and forth banter. If you really want to respond to anything I've said, please don't don't do I series of quote. Try a paragraph with your main point of contention. After that any one who reads this can decide what they believe on there own.

Oh man! Now you tell me! Sorry. But I probably would have done the same anyways--you know how much I love bottom posting debates! I really think this is a lot more efficient.

the_tiger_striped_cat · January 4, 2005

That's all I was trying to say. If you know it's going to end, why waste your time? Sure it feels good and you know that it's something that is "good" for you, but is that reason enough to do something that is practically pointless (since it will end)? You don't have to answer these or anything like that, I just wanted to explain why I used the smoking reference in my previous post.

Your life is going to end some day too, so why live?

As for the paradox thing. Yeah I'm sure I confused thigns because sometimes it's hard for me to really put down my thoughts on a keyboard, especially when it's late and I'm tired. But you keep saying that you shouldn't/can't be blamed for your ignorance, yet we do it all the time. Doing something wrong, is still doing something wrong whether you knew it or not. Ignorance can't be blamed since once you do find out you did wrong, most people will repent/apolagize for their actions. Your always responsible for what you do no matter what, even if you didn't know the consenquences.

This is not true. Some people think this because the law sometimes seems to punish ignorance. But look up actus reus and mens rea. And there's something called criminal neglence, which is not treated as the same as something like murder, and we have insanity pleas. But let me ask you, can you honestly hold the boy responsilbe for stealing a cupcake when he was too young to even know what stealing meant?

Think about when you were a young child and didn't know that throwing a soccer ball at someones head is the wrong thing to do (I didn't ). Usually an adult will come by and say "Hey you shouldn't do that", or "That's not a nice thing to do" right? Maybe you don't see these people as an obvious sign to stop, or you do choose to ignore them because your having fun, whatever the case you proceed to do it again. So the next thing that happens is your in the principles office and he's telling you your in trouble for what you did. When you say "Well I didn't know it was wrong" he can turn around and say "What about those people I sent to you to warn you about it?". Oh yeah, so the first thing out of your mouth is "sorry". God can act in the same way to those who are on the wrong path. Maybe those signs can't always be seen as obvious, maybe some are ignored, but when you come to God he will say "Why did you do those things?" and if you say "Well I didn't know", God can also turn and say "What about these signs I sent you?".

But the argument goes MUCH deeper than that. I want you to tell me why they ignored the signs. Is the correct thing to do to follow a path that leads to God? If it is, why would someone do the wrong thing? Why? If someone ignores the signs, then why did they do that. Basically, for every response you give me, I want you to ask yourself, "Why did they do that?"

Because the answer is that they didn't fully understand the signs or the implications, if they did then they wouldn't choose the wrong path. I mean why would someone ACTIVELY choose HELL, it doesn't make sense at all.

If the principal asked me, why didn't you listen to all those other people, I could give a thouand reasons. One of the reasons is, "I am inherently evil so I will always through the ball at the kids head." Another one is, "Even though I saw all the signs, I must of not have understood them because I did the wrong thing, but I'm supposed to do the right thing, so I must of made some mistake in my judgement, because we all agree that my judgement isn't correct.

Everyone makes the wrong choices sometimes, as said before, it's part of being human. All humans were born destined to go to Hell because all humans are born with sin in their heart. That's why people need to ask for God to come into their heart's, and forgive them because they are a sinner. The ignorance factor wont work because it never can, if it could people would try to get away with murder because they didn't know any better. But even there God has made his rule really clear (by not just making it a Commandment, but making it a crime all accross the world). I know I'm probably still not making any sense at all (long day of work, long night of healthy sex) so I should just stop it now. I need to start responding during the day when I'm awake.

Yeah i guess that's a way to get out of it that I forgot to mention. All of this assumes that God punishes (or saves you from Hell) justly. But God punishing someone for something they didn't even know is wrong (ignorance) is not just. So if you want to say that God doesn't punish justly then you don't have to worry about the paradox.

ShySoul · January 4, 2005

Okay, I'm not going to respond anymore after this. I think this post has gotten out of hand and is headed for flamming territory. I don't reallt think you enjoy a good debate Tiger, so much as you enjoy a good argument. If you were looking for a debate you could have read, or at least glanced at, the entire post and then went to respond. But the fact that you went straight for the quoting and responding I think demonstrates that you were eager to start conflictng with my viewpoints and couldn't even wait a few minutes to get a grasp of everthing I was trying to say. But before I go I need to make two comments that I think you should seriously consider. First is just a basic thought that might change the way you view things, or at least give other people something to think about. Second is something that I can't believe you would say and I feel that I need to respond as I've seen that kind of thinking greatly hurt someone I care the world about.

First is the subject of free will. We all have complete free will. I truly believe that we can do anything we set our minds to doing. Sure, we can not fly right know. But who says we won't be able to at some point in our evolution? Actually, we can fly with the aid of human constructed machines. Even hundred years ago the thought of flight was seen as impossible. But humans used there brain and will power to come up with a way around all the logical reasons why its not possible. There is no telling what human ingenuity will come up with. And if you don't want to include machines, the human brain is a remarkable thing. Isn't it said that we only use 10% of our brainpower? Imagine what we could do if we used that other 90%.

Free will is not determined by the past. The past can influence us, but so can the present and the future. But in the end we always make the choice on our own. We decide how much weight we will give to certain arguments. The monk may not have thought about things from the same angle I had, just as I might not have thought about things in the same way he has. He may not choose to believe what I say, and that's just it, he choses not to. He is using his own mind to decide if he agrees with me. Thats the ver definiton of free will, to decide for yourself what he believe. If most killers come from the ghetto it is because of the hardships they had to face. I'm not saying our past doesn't affect us. But we are free to choose how we respond. Not all people from the ghettos are killers and not all killers come from the ghettoes. Sure, people there face hardships and it may seem like they have no other choice. But its up to each person to choose for themselves if they will give in to that thinking or work to get out and make a better life. The ultimate choice is always up to the individual.

Secondly, I can't believe you would claim that sex with someone you hate is good for the body. I know someone who was getting divorced because she and the man and grown so far apart that they couldn't stand each other anymore. They both said they don't know what they ever say in each other and that they hated each other. But they let there "needs" get the better of them and they ended up sleeping together. Now, how is that a good thing? There was no love, they didn't and still can't stand each other. All it did was mess things up. And if you want to see soul damage, look at someone shaking and crying there eyes out wondering how everything went wrong. Listen to her blame herself for everything that happened. Sex without love only creates problems. Love is the only thing that makes sex worth having.

That's it. I'm done. Sorry to everyone if anything I said was rude, mean, or offensive. I feel passionate about this topic and was speaking from my heart so I probably got emotional. Thanks, goodnight, and don't be sneaking down for some light night cookies.

Angelus · January 4, 2005

Look tiger, can u please stop sniping everyone's post is getting really annoying man!

Look shysoul, switch and muneca are right man, you seem to be in serious denial here man. Enough of this back and forth arguemnts okay please!

You know what tiger, you've tried the speed dating thing right, well not just try for once to go out and look for someone special for a change. Go with your heart and seek love instead of looking for sex with your penis for God sakes man give it a rest!

It deeply saddens me that you're truly believe that sex with someone you hate is actually good for you. How is that good? That my friend is bad karma, not only do you destroy yourself emotionally but destroy yourself spiritually as well. It seems as though you're a religious person so I'm gonna ask you, if God says that "F Buddies" are wrong then why are you trying to convince us that it is right. I know many of you are gonna say keep religion out of this but I can't and I'm sorry if this may offend you.

God created sex as an act to be experienced by two people who are truly in love with each other and are bonded, emotionally and spiritually to each other. Ur degrading a wonderful act to satisfy your own selfish needs.

And dont' say ur not being selfish bc that is selfish, do you care about this girl on a deep level? If she cries are you there for her emotionally? When she's spiritually lost can you be there for her? Ur there for her physically yes we can all see that, but it's not enough.

Please open ur eye and ur heart and relize the error in ur ways and change. You owe it to yourself to do so. You say this girl isn't mature enough and isn't on ur level, I don't think it's fair to her that you should say such things.

In ur last post you also told us that she can't get over her ex--hmmmmm I wonder why? Well let's see, maybe it's bc she still loves him.

Look no one on this thread is trying flame you or offend you, we're actually here to help you so please don't try to justify emptiness bc that's what sex without love is. It's void, a black hole of uncertainty.

If you're gonna listen to anyone, listen to Switch, bc at least he went through basically the same thing as you, now he's realized his error in judgement and has found his salvation.

So I pray you'd find solace is someone and make your own final atonement.

Live free....die well.

butterflies · January 20, 2005

he said i'm not fbuddy, sex partner, or whatever you call that. he said we are friends. but friends don't have sex, but we do, then where do i belong?

Switch187 · January 20, 2005

If the person you are with doesn't want to be with you in a monagomus (sp?) relationship, says they just want to be friends but continue to have sex and be intimate then you are f-buddies. He can deny it all he wants to make you feel better, but that's the position he has placed you in by saying your just friends while having sex.

butterflies · January 20, 2005

so should i dump him now, or confront him but how will i tell him?

Switch187 · January 21, 2005

If your not comfertable being a fbuddy with this person, then tell him flat out that friends don't have sex with each other. If you do want somekind of relationship with him then tell him that if he wants to continue being intimate with you and enjoying all the benifits of a relationship, then he should be in one with you, but if he doesn't then tell him that your not going to keep having sex with him as a friend.

DragonGirl724 · January 22, 2005

well in have one but we were really good friends b4hand & made it absolutly positively without a doubt clear this doesnt involve feelings & once this is over & done with nothing at all will effect our friendship in the least bit. if anything, this strengthened it by taking it to the next level. if its done right its a pretty cool thing.

-DG724

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