Opinion on morals

[Batya33]

So far the cited passages seem to touch a spot with you since it seems to justify rape, when in fact, it says that a woman has to resist a rape or sexual advance WITH FULL FORCE, by kicking, screaming, crying out loud, to make it clear it is unwelcome. You dont allow a rape to happen then go to the police afterwards. You have to fight the rapist by making the resistance that is shown in the Bible, and that will usually scare off an attacker. Even if you were filing a police report afterwards, the police will look into when you filed the complaint, and what type of resistance you made. Obviously, if you told the police you didn't resist and even said you liked it and even wrote a profile about it and some guy caught wind of it, then it wont be a complaint.

 

That's the lesson of the second passage. The first passage is more controversial. But if a rapist were to see a victim as a potential wife rather than a sex object, then maybe there would be a different mind-set about the whole thing since most men arent' that gun-ho to get married.

 

having been in the position of sexual assault I can confirm as many women do that crying out or heavily resisting is either going to make the situation more dangerous or you "freeze." And your opinion of course does not cover date rape drugs that are slipped into someone's coffee or drink. How is that woman supposed to cry out?

[Luke Skywalker]

having been in the position of sexual assault I can confirm as many women do that crying out or heavily resisting is either going to make the situation more dangerous or you "freeze." And your opinion of course does not cover date rape drugs that are slipped into someone's coffee or drink. How is that woman supposed to cry out?

 

I am sorry to hear you have been in that position, however, you have to resist a rape, the situation is more dangerous if you do nothing because what's to stop a rapist from killing you after the rape is concluded and he got what he wants. There is nothing to lose by additional resistance. Carry a pepper spray or taser gun or something. Do anything to resist to the hurt or injury of the guy in your own self-defence. Suppose there are people nearby, if you cry out someone may come to help you or you may scare off the attacker.

 

Date rape drugs? Again, you have to protect yourself by watching your drink and coffee. People have to take this victim mind-set off and be on guard, defend yourself. Watch drinks and coffee, scream out loud at would be attackers to get attention and scare them off, carry pepper spray, etc....

 

The Bible teaches people to defend and protect themselves and that voice can be a very powerful weapon in situations of rape. So, there is nothing wrong with that concept as presented in OT.

[Batya33]

You still do not account for the situations where the woman or man who is being assaulted has the very natural reaction of "freezing." I do not carry weapons because those can easily be used against me as I am a petite woman with unequal physical strength to most men.

 

A person can protect him or herself only so far against drugs being slipped into drinks. Under your theory, any time I left my coffee unattended when ot with a member of the opposite sex I would have to spill it out when I returned. Not very realistic.

 

That's all I have to write on the subject, under the circumstances.

[patch2006uk]

A woman is not always capable of defending herself against an attacker. It's just the way it is. And what percentage of rape victims do you hear saying they enjoyed being raped? Sexual assault, and sometimes just sexual contact, can lead to tensing of the vaginal muscles, making penetration incredibly painful for the woman.

 

i can see the logic in most of what your saying, but there are some circumstances where it is not possible to defend yourself. And shouting isn't really going to stop someone raping you, especially is it's an isolated place. Blaming the victim doesn't justify rape. Sexual assault is sexual assault. What are the chances, seriously, of an attacker stopping attacking the woman because she cries out. In some cases, that would probably spur them on!

 

The only thing i was trying to point out with these passages from Deuteronomy was the point that i personally wouldn't follow everything in the bible to the letter, which was regarding a comment that was made about oral sex being an unholy act.

 

I still don't understand why the Old testament would be a part of the bible if your supposed to ignore the rules set in it. Why keep what's out of date?

[Luke Skywalker]

I

A woman is not always capable of defending herself against an attacker. It's just the way it is. And what percentage of rape victims do you hear saying they enjoyed being raped?

 

I said rape means no sexual consent. You know in most sexual advances a guy isn't going to ask a girl for permission to advance, they are just going to do it, and if she doesn't object to it, then the advance continues. How many guys ask women permission to kiss them or for sexual favours?

 

Now, we are not talking about dating here, obviously, but situations of strangers and women in public. If a woman doesn't put up any form of resistance to a would-be attacker, then biblically speaking, that's incorrect. You are supposed to resist. You have to. It's your God-given right and you are expected to exercise it.

 

Cry out that you have advance form of the aids virus and laugh at the rapist and saying, you are going to get more than you bargained for. Most rapists are going to be deterred with the idea of contracting the aids/hiv virus, and may not think about that before they attack.

 

i can see the logic in most of what your saying, but there are some circumstances where it is not possible to defend yourself. And shouting isn't really going to stop someone raping you, especially is it's an isolated place.

 

Women should not go alone into isolated places. I'm saying it's better to avoid a rape in the first place. Take any precaution possible to avoid it. That's what the bible would imply. Dont leave drinks unattended. Dont go to places or venues where you could be victimised. Go in a group or with people. Do not travel alone late at night, go with a group of friends you trust. The list is endless, but if people should contact their local law enforcement authorities to educate themselves on how not to be a rape victim. If proper precautions are heeded, then one should avoid a rape in the first place at all costs, rather than be victimised.

 

Blaming the victim doesn't justify rape. Sexual assault is sexual assault.

 

The Old Testament says both the rapist and the victim are at fault if the victim failes to resist. The Bible's view, based on the passages you quoted, is that a victim HAS TO RESIST, or she is not a victim.

 

Does the bible blame the victim - or does the bible say that the victim HAS TO RESIST the rapist? Obviously, you HAVE TO RESIST WITH EVERYTHING YOU'VE GOT.

 

What are the chances, seriously, of an attacker stopping attacking the woman because she cries out. In some cases, that would probably spur them on!

 

In most cases it will scare away an attacker if she puts up a full powered resistance, screaming, kicking, laughing that he'll get aids, whatever...the point is to resist, and not be a victim. Cry out to God for help.

 

The only thing i was trying to point out with these passages from Deuteronomy was the point that i personally wouldn't follow everything in the bible to the letter, which was regarding a comment that was made about oral sex being an unholy act.

 

That passage doesn't talk about oral sex, it talks about rape. You tried to use a passage in the Bible to undermine the whole bible by pointing out there is something 'unreasonable' about God for having a passage that may seem to triviliase rape or sexual assault. My defense to that is that this passage doesn't do that, but in fact encourages a would-be victim to put out a full-force resistance and not be a rape victim in the first place. It would suggest to do anything necessary to protect your body.

 

I still don't understand why the Old testament would be a part of the bible if your supposed to ignore the rules set in it. Why keep what's out of date?

 

That's why I'm defending the rules you posited rather than ignore them.

They aren't unreasonable.

 

Rule: Dont allow yourself to be raped period. Do EVERYTHING to resist. First, avoid situations where it can happen, then secondly, Kick, scream, shout, call on God, shoot the rapist if necessary and no other resort. You have to protect yourself.

 

That's what those verses say.

[Luke Skywalker]

You still do not account for the situations where the woman or man who is being assaulted has the very natural reaction of "freezing." I do not carry weapons because those can easily be used against me as I am a petite woman with unequal physical strength to most men.

 

I dont carry weapons either. My mom used to call on the Lord to ward off would-be attackers, they would think she's crazy and run away. Each person is different.

 

See the problem here is you are vulnerable if you see yourself freezing or a future attack happening. You have to psyche yourself up and build yourself up so you can know you can protect yourself in the future somehow.

 

A person can protect him or herself only so far against drugs being slipped into drinks. Under your theory, any time I left my coffee unattended when ot with a member of the opposite sex I would have to spill it out when I returned. Not very realistic.

 

Do not leave your coffee unattended if that's what taking zero risks means.

I'm sorry, but people have to take every possible precaution to protect themselves, and the level of trust that you give to a fellow human being is your choice and risk.

[quietgrl]

Luke,

Sometimes people don't want to look at the world the way it SHOULD be but instead SUPPOSE to be.

[Batya33]

Luke - I wish you all the best in your approach to life, safety and morals. I am very comfortable with my (very high!) moral standards but mostly with the way I act in a moral way every single day and do good deeds for others, small, large and in between. I do not believe in talking much about my standards - because I am a doer. I just do my good deeds, stay other-centered when at all possible and that is enough for me to feel that I am doing my part and making a difference in peoples' lives. I will say that I hope you never, ever, are in a position to teach or give guidance to children or teenagers concernning how to avoid sexual predators or what to do in the event of a sexual assualt or rape.

[Luke Skywalker]

Luke - I wish you all the best in your approach to life, safety and morals. I am very comfortable with my (very high!) moral standards but mostly with the way I act in a moral way every single day and do good deeds for others, small, large and in between. I do not believe in talking much about my standards - because I am a doer. I just do my good deeds, stay other-centered when at all possible and that is enough for me to feel that I am doing my part and making a difference in peoples' lives. I will say that I hope you never, ever, are in a position to teach or give guidance to children or teenagers concernning how to avoid sexual predators or what to do in the event of a sexual assualt or rape.

 

As I recall, you were the one that precipitated this bible discussion by first quoting bible verses, so it seemed you were trying to make a case about your standards by attacking verses on a spiritual authority that would be held by both Christians and Jews. You want to talk about not talking about your own standards now? Do not quote bible verses and raise arguments about them if you dont like the inevitable discussion that will ensue afterwards.

[Batya33]

Actually no I did not quote any bible verses whatsoever. I did ask you why you needed to draw comparisons between the old and new testament. That is all I wrote. Look back in the posts - I am positive you are referring to another poster. Again, all the best to you - you are entitled to your own opinions and standards as long as you don't use them to harm others.

 

I think I found the post you are referring to by patch2006uk - that poster quoted bible verses, not me.

[Luke Skywalker]

Of course, and for the record, I have never had oral sex, touched, or kissed, or had any physical interaction with any woman in my life, so I'm a doer as well. Now, if I had oral sex, or was practising that, and came on here and said that I'm against it, then I'd see your point. So, each person that claiming something on here is keeping their standards. What I have argued to support the bible is to resist rape, and if you feel that is not a good idea, then I think you are off balance here not me. Furthermore, the bible is against oral sex. The Old Testament and the New Testament, where it pertains to moral issues are consistent and relevant today. The 10 Commandments in terms of moral integrity have not changed.

[Batya33]

As I mentioned above - I am not interested in debating standards of morality with you - or with anyone actually. In my opinion if girls or women - or the courts where I live - were to follow your suggested approach to rape or sexual assault it would be extremely harmful and potentially life threatening to many people. I am not here to try to change your mind - if you choose to read up on the whole issue more perhaps you will come to a different realization, perhaps not. It sounds like you are not in a position of authority to change the current approach to the one you advocate and so it doesn't concern me about what you believe is "right."

 

I am all for people adhering to their own standards of morality as long as they do not pressure others to accept their standards or harm other people physically or emotionally in the name of "morality." I see that you have a need to be "right" - that your moral standards are the "right" ones. I do not have that need to have others accept my moral standards as "right" and thereforeeee it is meaningless for us to have that debate.

 

As far as what you said you have done or not done - I am sure that is very meaningful and important to you and thanks for sharing what is meaningful and important to you. Best of luck!