Carnatic

Of course, and yeah making changes, particularly physical, to improve your chances in dating is a thing, especially in terms of weight and hairstyle. It's not what I meant when I said about things to address about myself though. I mean I have to change the mentality of thinking that it is impossible for any women to ever be interested in me. Maybe I'm not as fundamentally unlikeable as I think I am... Maybe there have been women take an interest in me, and I've pushed them away. I'll give an example... Just thought of one since starting this thread. Recently with a group of friends, we were talking about relationships and someone mentioned, about me and one of the women present. 'we'll you're both single, maybe you should get together'. My reaction was, one, to feel self conscious, and two to laugh it off as a joke, of course the idea that any woman might be interested in me could only have been meant as a joke, and I'd best show that I too find it funny and not have people think I may be taking it seriously. But it's not inconceivable that she might have actually been interested and saw me laughing it off as actually a sign that I wasn't interested. I'm not saying it's all that likely but my automatic reaction to not take it seriously, when I do stuff like that all the time might have led to women who we interested being put off me.

Ok. I'm sorry if I snapped, but can you see what I mean. I'm not at all saying I'm entitled for any woman to like me exactly how I am, but I also am how I am and as minor a detail as hairstyle might be, I'm not interested in a relationship that starts with me being told how such minor details should be, because if you let someone else control the minor details of your life then they'll soon be controlling the major details too.

No you don't understand at all and you're twisting my words around. Surely I'm entitled to want a relationship where I'm not expected to change who I am in order to meet expectations. But it goes deeper than that, a woman who expects men to have one of the five generic male haircuts in order to meet her expectations of masculinity, well more power to her, I'm not saying people have to like me, but if she doesn't like me how I am, well we probably won't have much in common anyway.

Well, I've made an interesting discovery in the last few weeks... Bread isn't all that good for you. I'm not gluten intolerant, but like a lot of people, I'd been treating bread and other gluten containing foods like pasta as a staple. Most of my lunches being a sandwich of some sort, and often having something for tea that might involve gluten, pasta or something. Weight has always been an issue. I find it very difficult to lose and very easy to gain. For a while in my 20s I was exercising intensively and eating a calorie controlled diet and while I lost some weight, after a year of this I would still be classed as morbidly obese. I've started to have salads for lunch, and pasta much more rarely and made no other changes to my diet or lifestyle and I've lost about a stone and a half (21 lbs for Americans among us, but I don't know what it would be in kg) in a few weeks. I've still got a long way to go but I'm as light as I've been in years and once the weight starts to drop off the momentum builds and it gets easier. Clothing is related to weight, in that I have certain styles I like to wear but which are almost impossible when you're very obese. For most of my life I've just felt I've had to make do with wearing generic 'jacamo' clothes, because they were the only ones I could buy that fit...I'm starting to try on some of my old clothes again, that I still have from back when I used to wear nice clothes. Whether anyone would call me well groomed or well dressed I don't know. One person's well groomed could be another person's scruffy and careless, but another person's stuffy and conservative. I have long curly blonde hair so I think most people might not like that but I'm just interested in women that do.

I'm still at the stage of trying to identify these behaviours... that's proving difficult. Yours is a realisation that could come to me too maybe. I know what it's like to have people call you ugly. Usually just throwaway comments that they presume I won't take personally, the old 'oh you're only XX years old, you must have had a tough paper round' type of comments, or people reacting with astonishment if they think I look relatively attractive in an old photo of me they saw on Facebook. But yeah, like I'm getting to accept that there are ways in which I sabotage my own chances... I haven't found them yet.

Guess it depends on what you find attractive. It's difficult when you say about the people you find hot / want to date, because ultimately we all only want to date people we are attracted to (there's no reason you should be expected to do otherwise) but whether that in itself is the issue depends on you. For some people that list of 'people I find attractive' is a very exclusive list that boils down to a list of physical criteria for what mainstream society considers 'hot'... and as soon as you refer to people you find attractive, a lot of folk will assume you are like this. But to other people it may be an eclectic bunch impossible to define, may be a very broad brush that includes the majority of people you meet, or may be a list of internalised criteria that contains no physical descriptions at all. The people you are attracted to also might be rejecting you based on something other than looks.

Hi I'm trying to be more self-aware and more proactive when it comes to dating. (I posted this in Personal Growth rather than in a dating related forum because it's more about can I improve myself and goes into the field of mental health than it is 'hey there's a girl I like, what should I do?'.) I'm not doing this alone, I have one or two online friends who talk to me about this kind of thing but it helps too to find other outlets where I can write my thoughts, let people read them etc etc. I've been looking into attachment types, and the Fearful Avoidant attachment type at the recommendation of a friend. She's someone I trust for her rationality and that she will only recommend things that are helpful and not go all the way down the rabbit-hole of pop psychology. Anyway, I need to address how the things I do and how I behave is the cause of me not getting anywhere when it comes to relationships and tear off the weird sense of comfort that comes from believing that I'm simply not good enough. I have always had this strong belief that when it comes to dating I just don't measure up; that it would be ridiculous bordering on breathtaking arrogance to even believe that any woman has ever been interested in me. Whenever I've been interested in anyone, I've always believed that regardless of what she is looking for in a potential partner: physical attraction, sexual chemistry, excitement, intellectual stimulation, emotional stability, creativity etc, there's nothing about me that would even warrant a first look let alone a second. I'm trying to cast off these notions. I always knew they were a bit ridiculous, as most of my friends (even if they aren't always positive or stable) get into relationships from time to time, for me to be as undateable as I believe myself to be would be pretty remarkable. It's difficult though, even though I would love to think that one of my straight female friends (or indeed anyone I'm yet to meet) might be interested in me, I also find it scary to think that and yet be doing nothing about it. It raises the questions of what I might be doing to ensure that despite interest in me, I see none of it, and how to stop doing those things. I guess I'm a bit sexually ambiguous in a way, so it's possible that I don't come across as available for dating. I resist the traditions of masculinity but I wouldn't say I was anything other than a standard cishet male. I worry I may be accused of putting on an act, or of being fake. I feel like I'm just being myself and that I like the way I look etc comfortable but also self-conscious of how I can't always help but stand out, and also worried that maybe I am cultivating an appearance and set of mannerisms etc almost designed to turn straight women away and not being 'just myself' at all. That's a whole rabbit hole though and just a thought. No matter how I've looked throughout my life, I've always had the same issues of believing myself to be not worth a first look. Sigh... this was all pretty hard to write and I fear the harsh words that I may be about to bring upon myself.

This is what I meant when I talked about expectations though. My intention and the primary reason I'm on any dating site is always to meet women and ultimately get into a relationship,and every time I get a match my hopes are always that this could lead to a date. Good idea about asking for a phone number though as a good halfway point between just chatting on tinder, and asking to meet.

I honestly didn't think when I started this thread that my use of Tinder was especially unusual, so my posts kinda stand out in this thread in a way I didn't expect. That said, I think you're making assumptions about me. You seem to think that I'm purposefully setting out on Tinder to get maybe one or two matches and at most have a chat, that I don't even intend to go on dates. I don't open the conversation right away with 'can we go on a date' that would be too soon, but if I get past the opening exchanges, then I do ask. The vast majority of the time, either I get no response to my initial contact or there is a brief exchange and then nothing, but over the past few years I have been on around four dates off there. It's only natural that my expectations would be low, and I take your point if you're just saying that low expectations can harm my chances but it's certainly not a deliberate decision that that's what I'm going on there for.

Would be kind of off-topic for this thread to go further into it but, like... I always hated standing out. I know I'm not like utterly hideous but I'm a bit of a weird looking, weird acting, weird speaking person and I often get the feeling from my friends that they pity me and want to boost my ego, but I also have a real love/hate relationship with self-worth, I want it but it makes me cringe.

Oh I mean, I would love for Tinder to be a way to meet people for actual dates/relationship, and that was always my motive for going on there... I've just adjusted my expectations over time to something a bit more achievable but expectations and motives aren't the same. My comments aren't so relevant to people in that I'm speaking of something I have little experience of, but I think my motives are the same as most people and if I could improve my chances of getting more than just the occasional match then I would.

Yeah I nearly always say something

I think I can explain what I get out of Tinder, and similar sites... hopefully that doesn't make me sound like too much of a manipulating jerk. So yeah, I go on for matches not dates, but not because I don't want to go on dates, but because matches are rare, the idea of me going on a date is pretty unrealistic, it has happened on a couple of occasions in the last few years but not often enough to make dating my goal, and even dating is a few steps before what I would really want, which is a relationship. But I feel ugly, pretty much 24/7. I feel uncomfortable in my own skin and struggle to come to terms with my appearance. Shallow it may be, to wish you were a little more attractive, but I'd be happy to just be able to blend in and not be so conspicious. I have a speech impediment as well, and I'm socially awkward and just all round... yeah. At least those last two things won't come across on tinder. I think my friends don't think I know either, like they wonder why I'm depressed I think they assume I don't realise what I am, and they want to boost my ego and make positive comments about me (besides the fact that I'm 'nice') it can be hard to take sometimes appreciating their complements and not wanting to let on that I know what they're doing, because I don't want to hurt their feelings. So every now and again... and it is rare, but then I'm also not on tinder all the time, I will get a match. I know that nothing could ever come of it, that she probably won't even respond if I do message her, but it's nice to know at least that in someone's eyes I maybe wasn't so conspicuously unfortunate. I feel a little rush of maybe I'm normal. It isn't just vanity, I don't want to be good looking exactly, and it's not ego, I don't particularly like attention, it's just the idea that maybe I look like a human being. Perhaps the idea that maybe I even won't die alone, but that does feel very unrealistic, and I don't feel sincere when I have that hope. Maybe I'm being dishonest and using people on tinder to massage my ego, knowing that they might have been expecting a date. My dating profile isn't exactly honest though, I make no mention of my speech impediment, I do say I'm overweight but include no full-body shots and don't add that I'm actually morbidly obese, and I certainly don't mention how socially awkward I am. It's hollow really because the person they swiped right on isn't me, but it's the best I'm ever going to get in life and at this point I'm just gonna be selfish and take it, I don't think I'm hurting people, just not being honest and I'm like, surely nobody would deny me that I can get swiped right on every few months and then have a few hours of not feeling so conspicuous.

Could be interesting, are there any dating sites that specifically do that? I'd be willing to try it out. I guess I'd be more likely to match based on a written profile than on a photo. I think you can tell things about people by looking at their pictures though, what pictures they have chosen can tell you things besides the obvious photos showing them doing something. Where I live, we're quite close to a popular national park and a good proportion of people, especially people who have moved here from elsewhere are here for the outdoor activities, and the same goes for Tinder, I would say a slighly majority (or a large minority) of tinder profiles I see feature at least one photo of the woman in active-gear, standing at the top of a mountain, rock-climbing or kayaking or riding a horse or something like that. Some of them it's clear it's a passion of theirs because they've chosen three or four photos of action sports. It's not really my thing though, I enjoy the occasional walk in the country but I'm much more of a city-dweller type. I don't think something is getting in the way of it, I'm just naturally not very charismatic.

I think when it comes to choosing photos most of us (I mean, nobody who has posted here so far but I still feel the majority of people) choose ones that make us feel better about ourselves... so it's a tricky one because you could put up the most brutally and grotesquely honest photos of yourself you can find... and you may even get matches because people appreciate the honesty but it's still difficult to feel good about yourself, not just physically but as a human being if you find the majority of photos of yourself so revolting. What I'm saying is I don't think people who select the best-looking photos of themselves are necessarily consciously trying to mislead, people often don't feel comfortable in their own skin. For what it's worth I do write in my profile that I'm obese, but I can't quite bring myself to take some new photos of myself that really show off how many chins I have or how much I look like a slug.

Thanks, the photo is probably one of me looking as good as I possibly can in a photo though... I use similar photos on dating sites (not in a wig), certain angles in certain lights I look OK and not especially obese. It feels like a bit of a misrepresentation though, I'm think I'm one of those guys who women turn up to the date and think 'oh... disappointing'. I don't really have much charisma though so I'm not blaming it entirely on my appearance. And there's a further point for discussion in that. I've seen quite a lot of dating profiles (hetero women) using particularly unflattering photos. Could it be a deliberate tactic, especially if a woman is traditionally attractive in Western culture, to weed out shallower guys... or so that they know they will look better in person. Sometimes it's because it's a photo showing some aspect of their interests or personality and you can see why it was included, but I'm talking basic selfies that are unflattering, sometimes when they have more flattering ones elsewhere in their profile. So another talking point right there is about using basic selfies versus photos showing you doing some activity or related to one of your interests. I don't really enjoy being photographed so the photos I do have of myself are just basic selfies, I notice that I'm having a good hair day or a day when I'm less fat than usual and I take a quick photo thinking I might be able to use that, but any photos that do exist, usually taken by someone else, that show me actually doing something, I can't bear to look at and certainly wouldn't really help me get matches even if they do show something more about myself than 'hey look, I'm a human being, I have two eyes see'.

So, a question for people. What sort of things do you put in your profiles? What sorts of photos of you do you like? What sorts of information do you put in or leave out. Is it just personal preference or do you look up guides (there are many, so I know it's a thing) online on how to create a profile.

I think it's like, firstly you need to be noticed, because being noticed is the first step towards, either a relationship or sex, whichever is your desire... but then being noticed itself feels good... for presumably evolutionary reasons, to drive us to seek romance. But also, for many people. Being noticed is the most they feel they can hope for. Relationships, dating, flings, sex all seem unattainable, but a match on tinder, that can happen.

I can understand that. It gives me hope but it is also bittersweet.

Oh yes, in a pink wig

Deep... I think you're right that there's two sides to the same coin. A lot of online dating feels like an extension of social media, and they even do have Facebook dating now. I don't have much experience though with the 'traditional' dating sides such as the ones which predated Facebook, I used OKCupid a bit but that was a decade ago. There has been a tendency towards things being quick and about grabbing attention. I do still think though that Tinder and its clones probably most closely match the way people meet each other in bars and the like in real life. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing I don't know, I guess it depends how easy people find it to get matches on there and get past the whole online thing and to the in-person thing. Speaking personally, my experience with online dating isn't really that typical, in that I'm stupendously bad at getting matches, anywhere. I spent about a year on OKC without finding a single match so in comparison the couple dozen or so matches I've managed to rack up in five years on tinder seems wildly successful, even if only four or five have responded to me. If it wasn't for Tinder then I would still have never been on a date in my life.

I think that you're maybe more self-assured, and less in need of validation than most people are... just from previous posts of yours I've seen, so I can understand that. When I talk about them offering hope though, that can feel very real. It's not without it's huge caveats but it's not totally imaginary either. Speaking from my own experience, but I'm sure it's shared by many people who use online dating, I have never in my life experienced a girl being interested in me in person, it's hard not to feel like this is just how it is. Caveats are of course that until you meet in person and hopefully hit it off, a match on a dating site isn't a real thing, but nevertheless, knowing someone swiped right on me once feels like a massive step up from where I was in the dating world before I discovered Tinder. I'm not a heavy Tinder user by the way, I use it a little bit similar to what @SooSad33 was saying, I'll go on there from time to time, swipe right a lot more than I swipe left, and once in a while I get a match. It feels cheap but it beats feeling fundamentally undesirable.

For many people I think it's that dating sites (and actually, especially Tinder and those who copied its model) offer hope that they might get noticed. They're not without their problems and can seem to offer false hope, but the prospect of getting a match and knowing that means that someone has seen your profile and thought 'yes' is alluring.

I could be overstepping a boundary here so feel free to delete this if you're a mod and this isn't the kind of topic you're supposed to post, but I felt like we could do with one or two topics that were just for open discussion. A lot of time I maybe feel like I want to say something, but it isn't worthy of creating a whole new topic. I don't always like that creating a topic to ask about a specific thing will turn into a two page discussion entirely about myself; but then I'm sure other people like that so I don't want to post stuff about myself on a topic where someone else has asked for advice. It's part of the nature of this forum I guess, that each topic pretty much is a specific person's appeal for help but we could maybe do with ones more of a general nature. And to make sure this gets off to the best start, and doesn't get mistaken for a request for advice purely for myself, I'm not even going to add any of my own thoughts... yet. So, this is for Online Dating & Apps... PoF, Tinder, Bumble, all the others. How do people approach them, what do they struggle with, what issues do we have in common and so on. Have at it.

What exactly about her answer bothers you? The hypothetical question she answered is actually fairly tame by the standards of these sort of questions, most of the time there's more of a dilemma posed, such as it not being specified that she would be single in this scenario, or the person she has to sleep with being someone she wouldn't want to sleep with (wrong gender, wrong age, wrong body type, politician she hates, etc). When you say you feel your values are different then I assume you mean something more like you feel that she has expressed an openness to the idea of prostituting herself rather than that you are worried she will cheat on you, but some clarity here may be required because its not clear what about this you don't like. Remember that the point of these type of question is to take something that a person wouldn't want to do and then test them by seeing what it would take to change their mind, buy making the scenario increasingly unrealistic. Nobody offers that much money for sex, even in the world of fiction it would seem, so essentially what she is saying is that it would be impossible for anyone to buy her sex... at least not without offering her so much money that it would guarantee her financial security for life and no need to ever work again. And this is in a situation where the only drawback is that she might not be into the person offering the money.