MysteriousTelephone

1 hour ago, mylolita said:

Yes but they are exactly that! In and out of non-serious relationships, enjoying hook up culture, nothing too serious. If we all were thinking in our early 20s, I want to seriously find my husband/wife, by time the majority of us got to 30, with everyone working towards the same goals (marriage or, very serious life partner) the majority would have it. Instead, I think we have a serious conflict of interests going on and no one knows which what way or what goals to have or chase and we want it all but don’t take any serious steps to get it!

 

I am your generation Mysterious at 32. I really do think your problem has layers, and the attitude of my generation is one of them.

 

I’m not fobbing you off here. I had to be with a guy nearly 10 years older than me because all the guys the same age as me were running around living with their mums playing the field and talking out their second degree with no thought for settling down in all seriousness. It’s lucky I have a thing for older men 🥲🥴🥴🥴

Right, but you do understand that people in their 20s have completely normal relationships, right? I was looking to get me one of those. Or on a base level, have the validation of having someone being attracted to me. You know, the little things.

You're saying that women in their 20s aren't ready to settle down, but also that women in their 20s don't like guys who also aren't settling down, and I just don't see how the two are compatible. If you're in the headspace of just going out and having fun, it would not matter if the guys you're interested in are of the same mindset. Similarly, if you're ready to settle down and so are they, that's great! It's only when there's an imbalance there's a problem.

Regardless, when a woman rejects me just from the sight of me, she has no indication as to my thoughts on settling down, wether I own a home or not, drive, have or even want kids. It's a rejection at a base level.

14 hours ago, mylolita said:

Hey Mysterious!

Thank you for replying. I am getting a picture here you really do think you are unattractive and this is the sole and only cause you don't have a girlfriend by now?

You said this:

"None of that seems to have anything to do with my particular issue, but it's interesting nonetheless."

I would say, it does! And is one of the reasons why you might be in your 30s and saying this instead of being in your 20s. The average age for settling and marrying and generally entertaining serious relationships is going up all the time. Extended adolescence is a perfect way to describe this! If women, and men, are all getting out of university much later, with big debt, they are not settling down, potentially not looking for anything serious yet. They get established in their career, put lots of energy and time into it - you hear it a lot - I have no time for a relationship. People, both genders, seem to be getting to about 30 and then saying oh, I'm ready now! (For something serious!) Women especially don't seem to be entertaining marriage and serious relationships until older. 
 

Hey MyLolita!

Once again, it's not me thinking that I am unattractive, that just seems to be the most realistic answer at this point. If everything else is more-or-less taken care of, what other conclusion can you draw?

Regarding your societal thoughts: I do agree with most of what you say, I really do. However, I disagree with this idea that women want nothing to do with men because they're waiting until their 30s to have kids. It's.... well it's just not true. Women date in their teens, they date in their 20s, their 30s, whatever. While most of the women I know have certainly started to have children later in life, they absolutely did not spend their 20s having "no time" for men. It's bizarre to me to watch men and women get together, and un-get together throughout their 20s, and have the reason why nobody wants me to be "Well, women just don't have time for boys in their 20s". It's not that I'm not buying it, it's that it's categorically untrue.

14 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Make sure your pics are recent and varied. And your profile suits the app and is varied. If women see you on every imaginable (and unpaid) platform it's overexposure and looks like "marketing", which is off-putting as any hard-sell is. Don't "market" yourself. Be yourself. If you boast too much about what a catch you are, it's a turn off.

Oh absolutely, I've done my best to curate a variety of images that display different things: playing sport, out with friends, in nature, sometimes a photo from a wedding. Absolutely not a boastful person on such platforms.

On 11/9/2022 at 2:38 PM, Kwothe28 said:

I did read. I mean I wasnt here for a week so maybe missed a few pages but its more- less the same. My problem isnt with you and that you are unwilling to approach women in general, we know that you are not. My problem is that I am telling you that you need to do that constantly in order to get a girl. Not one girl once in a while but constantly every time you get a chance. Because "soul crushing" or not, you just need to move forward. And while some men can just wait and approach some girl once in a while and get the shot, you are the one that needs to work on it. Constantly approaching, trying to take a number, getting on dates etc. No matter how hard rejections are for anybody, because I doubt there is a human being on Earth that is just immune to it. But they just brush it off and move forward. So can you.

Again, if you are out socially 4-5 nights a week, to how many girls are you approaching in those days? To how many of them have you asked the number? Add them on social media maybe? Tried to call them out? For example, since this thread started, have you tried to approach any of girls while you are out? And with what results?

Because I have a feeling its maybe 1 or 2. And that you need to that far more fequently in order for somebody to stick around. 

I don't know where you got the idea that I only approach someone "once in a while", because that's not something I've alluded to.

I can't give you hard numbers on the amount of people I approach in a week or month. I will approach more people in a dance social or meet-up event than I will at the gym, for example, though I do still talk to people there. Suffice to say, I do my best to talk to everyone at a dance class, social, or meet-up group. Sure, some people will be males, or women who aren't single, but you don't know that unless you talk to them, right? Of the ones who are single and I feel there's a click, or even if I just think they're fun people, I will do my best to take things further.

I have to ask, since you're very interested in hard numbers, exactly how much can I do for it to be counted as 'enough'? Going out socially 4-5 nights a week? Not good enough. Ask out 4-5 people? Double it. Currently renting? Buy a house, you scrub. Like, you must admit this is more effort than 99% of the population has to go through to find someone who thinks they're borderline attractive.

On 11/9/2022 at 2:59 PM, Tinydance said:

I understand he can be completely honest here and say whatever he wants, as opposed to in real life. But everything he's been saying has been basically judging himself and saying that every other person has it better. "My friends are all hot and find someone, all other guys find someone, 14-year-olds find someone". First of all, that is just really not the case. Most people are not hot or rich so dating isn't a piece of cake for anyone. Your average person does have to actually try. And there is a lot of rejection. I'm speaking from my own personal experience.

I'm happy to sympathise with someone's situation but also why do I have to sympathise with OP more so than any other person who puts effort into dating and struggles? Which is actually a lot of people. He has even said many times that he can't think of anything actually wrong with him and neither could any of his friends. I'm sure he's not hideous so why should we feel sorry for him.

Like I've said, I can only speak from my experience. My friends are, verifiably, attractive people who've had no problems getting dates. Even the people I know who are more 'average' looking, have not had this issue either. I've not met, nor spoken to a person who made it into their 20s without having a relationship. This isn't up for debate.

On 11/9/2022 at 6:14 PM, mylolita said:

This has been real interesting for me. It is very rare that someone asking for advice only wants to hear from people who haven't succeeded in their field of question, and rejects any advice from people who have won in love or, at least, succeeded in some aspects where they need help or advice. Interesting!!!



 

I mean, someone who'd had the same problems and got through it, would be nice. So far as I can tell, nobody on this forum has had those issues to this extent, only mentions of a friend or brother in law with similar problems.

I don't want to hear from pretty people telling me it's easy, you just need to go out and have fun and it will happen, I get enough of that from my friends.

On 11/9/2022 at 6:25 PM, mylolita said:

I find making friends so easy - it's just like, one day, we were talking, next week, they are here having coffee at the house, and the week after, our kids are playing together, then they constantly text, and arrange meet ups etc. The thing I find difficult is thinking, is this person someone I deeply click with? Plenty of nice conversations and even deep conversations can be had but, when all is said and done, was it just a nice time? Do I really care for them? 
 

You'd be surprised, a number of people I know find it very difficult to make friends. Either through shyness, less socially aware, or just not really having a 'knack' for it. I've always found it easy, so I find it difficult to relate when they tell me they don't have many friends, which is literally the problem I'm facing when I tell people it's a difficult world when you're ugly.

On 11/10/2022 at 7:10 AM, mylolita said:

The game has changed so much from even 20 years ago. No one knew online dating would be a thing - people used to put a short little ad in the paper yonks back. One of the main problems of modern dating I am finding is that, in the past, you only had a “local” pool to choose from.  It was very rare someone met someone else from out of their town or state or county (if you are British like me!) now, it’s international. With the whole online thing, you can be tempted to look at anyone, anywhere. Almost too much choice in a way. The culture has changed as well. My generation are in no special rush to settle down, we feel like we have “all the time in the world”. 
 

Women are going off at 25 and just starting their careers. They are too busy for the guys. More and more women are happy to be single and not have children as well. I read a statistic that for the first time in history, women who are 30 and over and don’t have children is higher than those who do (50.1%) which means, more women don’t have children than do! And there was a pretty eye opening statistic that said the largest number of western births are to mothers in the 40-45 age range category over the 20-25! More 40 plus year old women are having babies than women 25 and under!

Sure, things have changed as a society, younger people have been given something of an 'extended adolescence': whereas historically you'd be a married homeowner with at least one child and a full-time job at 18, now it's considered normal to stay in education longer, stay a home longer, and put off having children until they've accomplished things they want to do first. Part of it is clearly economical: the cost of raising a child to 18 years is around £200,000, wages have not kept up with inflation meaning home-ownership is very difficult in your 20s without help from parents. We're living in a different world to the ones our parents grew up in.

None of that seems to have anything to do with my particular issue, but it's interesting nonetheless.

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

It's important to remember that physical attraction based hookup apps such as Tinder Attract more male users.

In fact it's 75% male/25% female, so as a guy looking for dates, these types of apps will just put you in a huge pile of unnoticed users.

If you want to try for more success, try a relationship-based paid app such as eHarmony where there are more female users than male users.  

I feel I should clarify: I've not been solely relying on one platform for my self-marketing. I've used all the big hitters: Okcupid, Match, Bumble, Plentyoffish, Hinge, Once, you name it.

12 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Do you feel you give out approachable, positive vibes and energy? Do you want to make people feel comfortable in their own skin when they are around you? Are you curious about people and do you ask good follow up questions without being prying? How's your posture? 

I think many posts ago I recommended volunteering backstage at community theater helping to build sets and/or do costumes or lighting etc - it's a great way to meet people and conversation is easy while you're working. 

Several of my friends have done this on and off for the last 15 years -I got a few of them involved -even though I actually never have!  We have a very private introverted male friend in his 50s who lost his wife around 6 years ago after she was ill for a couple of years - and I suggested this to him and he joined and from all I can tell he has met people, made friends, found a community of sorts.  It's lovely to see (no he is not remarried and no I do not know if he is dating - but he is fine looking -not "hot" - just - average pleasant looking, etc.).  

Again, I would say so, because I've been able to make friends very easily, from every walk of life, which is something people struggle with. I'm a fairly upbeat person, if I was just throwing out negative energy and making people feel uncomfortable, I don't think I would be that successful in making friends. I do ask good follow-up questions, and my posture is fine.

It's not that I'm super against volunteering in community theatre, but like I said, I do believe another regular commitment would cut into the several ones I already have, and something would have to drop. I'm also not terribly interested in volunteering in community theatre, meaning if I did it, it would be to meet a woman, and that's just not a great reason to do volunteering.

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

You've already determined that it's not your physique or clothes. Or that you're introverted or a homebody. So there's no point to keep deliberating and defending that.

You've already stated that your conclusion is that your facial appearance must be the reason.

It doesn't matter how many anecdotal stories there are about  plain people finding relationships. It doesn't address your particular situation.

What matters is you're convinced that the only reason for not having a relationship is because of your face. Even though there are plenty of other factors.

So, since you already have your fixed conclusion, what do you plan to do? 

Your logic and premises and arguments are based on nonfactual information attempting to rule out everything else. 

It's like saying "I don't see anyone walking their dogs. Ergo: no one in my neighborhood has dogs". 

 

I have determined those things, yes, yet I still get posts saying "Have you thought about going out and meeting people? Sorry you're introverted, have you thought about not wearing rags?" and it does just feel that people aren't reading my messages at all.

Honestly, I didn't know what I expected from posting on here, I guess on some level I hoped to find someone who'd been through this and got out the other side. What I've seen so far, are people who are mostly happy in relationships telling me how easy it is, that all they did was go to a bar. That's great for them, but no help to me. Even the anecdotal stories seem to be along the lines of "Yeah I had a friend who struggled with love, only dated a few times, then he met 'the one' and got married late, at 29." I've literally yet to read in this thread of anyone who has got to the tender age of 30 and never had a girlfriend, or any interest in that department. That's not me saying I've got it so much harder, but it does make me feel unusual if I cannot find another human being who has gone through this experience to this extent.

10 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

Again, you are too focused on looks. So you see yourself as "ugly". And that holds you back by a lot. If you dont see yourself as somebody that has something to offer and can get girls, those girls wont see that too. That is where maybe some nice wardrobe would help. You would maybe feel better and more confident to approach girls and build on that.

But you didnt do any of those stuff. Dress up nicely and go to some place to meet girls. Go introduce to 10 of them. Out of 10, I guarantee that you would at least connect with some to take a phone number and call her on a date. Do that couple of times and you should at least find a girlfriend. Yes, dating is hard. Extra hard if you are not good looking. That doesnt mean its impossible as much as you think it is. It just means that you, unlike somebody good looking, need to make an extra efforts. But you seem to be unwilling to do that.

I really feel like you're trying here, but seem to have not read much of my posts.

How do you define me being 'unwilling' to dress up nicely and go to places to meet girls, when it's literally something I've repeatedly mentioned that I do? I would say I'm out socially 4-5 nights out of 7 every week, that's not insignificant or 'unwilling to try'. I do appreciate the game theory that it's just a numbers game if you just keep at it, you used the 'out of 10' example: now picture doing that, consistently, for 12 years and coming up with zero? That's pretty soul crushing.

8 hours ago, Carnatic said:

Out of interest OP, what is your sense of style like, are you able to describe the kinds of clothing that appeal to you, or that you are most likely to wear out of the house? It's a factor in attraction, and something that can work in your favour if you are naturally unattractive.

It's subjective of course, I know the way I look wouldn't appeal to women who are after a clean-cut understated professional-looking guy, but it's a personality thing and I'm working under the assumption that a woman I'd be attracted to would be put off by a clean-cut understated professional-looking guy. You want to be visually appealing but it's also about trying to say 'this is what my personality is like'.

All that said, it isn't plain sailing. Dressing up draws attention and if your physical features, face etc aren't especially attractive then sometimes it does feel like you're showcasing that. Sometimes I do feel like I'm not attractive enough to be allowed to dress the way I do, particularly if I've attracted unkind comments from people. I mentioned earlier in this thread about people coming up to me and telling me I'm ugly, it doesn't happen if I dress down, and go out always with just a hoody and jeans... as I did for a spell in my early thirties, but I don't like that.

Maybe some people feel that if you dress up then you must think that you're attractive and that it's up to them to give you a dose of reality, I dont know, but it does mean I feel more self-conscious for having put in the effort to look good with how I dress and style myself. I know that I can be eye-catching, especially with my hair, which is quite distinctive, and that invites scrutiny, and I do feel that even if I just had very average and plain features I'd feel more like I was just seen as pulling it off and less as a curiosity because an ugly guy is trying to be all stylish. I don't know whether your style is similar but I mean these things regardless of whether your style is more colourful and bohemian, clean-cut and professional or whatever.

Sure, I'll do my best. I suppose I prefer a more 'rugged' style, loosely inspired by workwear or military. I do my best to showcase my athletic physique, so as we enter the colder months, going out I would opt for a well-fitting sweater with a waffle texture, paired with jeans and a racer leather jacket. I tend towards 'slim' or 'fitted' cuts of clothes, but try to steer clear of 'tight'. In the summer I might go for a fitted polo shirt in navy, in my head I'm cutting a James Bond silhouette. I find darker colours compliment my skin tone, and because I have blue eyes I do have a fair amount of blue/navy in my wardrobe. I don't like clothes with big logos, or t-shirts with pictures or slogans on them, so a lot of my wardrobe is fairly simple. I do get compliments on my clothes a fair bit, though I do wonder if it is genuine, or if people feel the need to pay a compliment so they just pick out something I'm wearing.

7 hours ago, boltnrun said:

I really wish the women who post on this forum that say they are struggling with dating could somehow communicate with the male posters who are having the same issue. It would be interesting to see what they may or may not have in common. It would also dispel that myth I keep seeing from some men that insists "ALL women are constantly bombarded with interest from men. They're just being too picky!"

I would say that women generally have different problems when it comes to dating, that "too much attention" can be as dispiriting as too little. Most women I know generally have at least a few guys just hanging around hoping they will end up with them, and that's it's own problem. I don't believe women are being 'too' picky, because as I've seen, literally everybody else is doing better than me, The Elephant Man got married in his 20s.

16 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Honestly OP, if it's about your looks so much, either post a pic so we can help, or, better yet, talk to a professional 🤷‍♀️ We don't know you. You sound good on paper, but something is getting in your way and only someone who knows you irl can give you valuable honest feedback.

This whole post has become a waste of time. I hope there isn't some troll behind the screen.

I do believe we are at the point where I could literally put up a photo of anyone, and I'd get the cartoonish "There's nothing wrong with you, it must be because you don't drive!", so what's even the point? I assure you, I'm not a troll, I just genuinely cannot understand how I can be some form of 'ok' and still get to 30 without anyone wanting me.

16 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Is the cost of driving lessons/a license a hold up? What about dating? Is spending to go places where women are or on quality dating apps an issue? Something is up besides "I don't like how my face looks".

I mean... the average cost of maintaining a car is £3,500 in the UK. Even just to get a licence and still not drive, an intensive driving course is about £1,000. For those who need to, earn their money by driving, have a job that requires it, or have family to transport, it's absolutely a necessary spend.

Now as I continue to mention, my life in the city allows me to live a full life and not miss out on anything, what need have I, right now, to spend £1K to continue to not drive?

12 hours ago, mylolita said:

Both the OP and Canartic are struggling in love, can’t drive but say it doesn’t matter, but have women on here saying it does, and other people saying it is a good useful thing. The OP is asking for a girlfriend I take it, not a hook up. A girlfriend will generally care about a whole lot more than a casual hook up would. They won’t care if you drive, have a job, have an apartment. A girlfriend? She will be looking for more. Why limit your options with women when you are already struggling and write off people like me? (LOL! Look, I know you wouldn’t want to date me, I’m saying women like me or who have similar preferences). If you have it worked out with the ladies, why bother arguing about it? We are just saying hey, x y and z are attractive to us! Take it or leave it, Y’know? 

I would disagree, you've been presented with all of the information I have to give, and picked on the one thing I've not done, and held it up as shining example of why I'm single. Imagine if I did drive, what would we be talking out? A partner who can drive may be a positive boon for a lot of people, they do have to go through a lot of information and conversation before that comes up. If you're in a bar or club, chances are nobody is driving home. Do ugly people with cars have to wear certain apparel so that potential partners know from a distance that they are 'proper adults' and can transport a buggy with ease?

12 hours ago, mylolita said:

You want to attract a quality woman. You can sit and wait and carry on doing what you are doing or you can make some more changes and see what happens.

 

What I find important in a guy is obviously not what all women find important. I find it important that a man can physically handle himself and isn’t a push over. Some women even find that kind of quality unattractive, or even maybe dangerous and unappealing. I’m not saying each women’s individual preference is going to suit every guy. 


To answer your question, as animals, we size people up almost instantly. Before they even say anything! There have been many many a psychological study on this. We make all kinds of assumptions, everyone does, some people more than other but it is an animalistic left over survival trait humans have. Men do it to other men as well, women to other women. We have social hierarchies as well, just like other animals. There is a pecking order. Put a whole bunch of men in a room, and it won’t matter how much they earn or how many degrees they have, a dominant man will come forward and naturally lead those other men. They aren’t always physically the biggest either. The same applies for women. Have a bunch of women work together or live together for a long period, and all the other womens menstral cycles will synch with the most dominant woman’s menstrual cycle. This happens with primates also in the natural world.  I mean, it’s not just Jordan Peterson who is a Harvard psychologist and best selling author who talks about this - there are absolutely countless studies to go on and research. If you think people just need to talk to you and  don’t judge one bit across a room - I would say, I am sorry, you are quite naive I’m afraid! 
 

We all have different talents, different natural attributes. My husband for example, is an extremely confident guy. You tell him he can’t do something and he’s gonna prove you wrong. He doesn’t fear rejection, doesn’t think anyone is too good for him - he would ask out women no matter how beautiful they were, and he got them too! He runs his own business, is self made. There is no way he would be on an advice forum! The concept of that is alien to him. He wouldn’t get it. His take on advice is going to shoot pool with his friends and bouncing some ideas off them. But! He can’t dancer for s**t! And you can dance! He wouldn’t know the first thing about dancing, or how too - and he wouldn’t be able to do it either. It doesn’t come natural to him, but talking to and appealing to women does come naturally to him. Dancing is a natural gift for you, something you are good at. Sometimes, we have to work at things we don’t have a natural ability for. If your appearance is not as attractive as some other men, you may have to work harder and branch out, try different avenues, try different approaches.
 

You can try things, see if they work. That’s all anyone can do in life. You can’t say it won’t work until you try.
 

I don’t get the negative backlash at the suggestion of getting a drivers license - not sure what is so terrible about being able to drive, or that somehow if you got your license you would be chained to the wheel and never use ya legs again but, I think I’m living in a much more traditional world here the more I read this thread! 

 

Like @tattoobunnieI think I have made my suggestions, useful or not, is up to the OP - and, I tap out - LOL! 
 

I also wish you the best of luck OP. 
 

x

I mean, I certainly wouldn't call being out socially 5 nights out of 7, mixing with new people to be "sitting and waiting", you can't say I'm not putting the effort in.

Yes, I agree that people size each other up very quickly, my point is that many of the qualities you desire are not visible to the naked eye, so devoid of any other information it becomes "hot or not". Outside of maybe wearing a suit or an expensive looking watch, there are very few cues as to someone's financial situation or career prospects. My friends who are IT managers don't dress well, one who is a building-site manager dresses like a builder, but he's on 60K, you wouldn't pass him in a bar and smell money, you'd find that out because you're talking to him because you like the look of him.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that a lot of it doesn't seem to apply to these situations: the unemployed 18 year olds, as well as the 30 year olds living with their parents, are doing better than me. I'm playing by the rules as much as I understand them, then I'm being told it's somehow not enough, despite people who've put a lot less effort in, doing far better.

11 hours ago, Distressedmamma said:

I agree with mylolita. Psychology says people make a judgement on somebody within 3 seconds of meeting them (or seeing a photo). There's an element of physical attraction.. but when i tried out tinder previously if I saw a bulked gym photo of a guy I wasnt interested. Which is funny because I enjoy the gym and being active and fit... but I can't stand the self obsessed men that spend every minute there and take photos of themselves all jacked up. To me it says they're rather self obsessed. I've never taken a photo inside a gym. I've also swiped left on people who have hunting photos, because I can't stand the macho display of dead animal. I think people should hunt for food, not sport. And I always swipe left on people with fishing or nightclub photos. 

None of that is to do with their looks at all, but rather the instant knowledge that our interests would make us incompatible. 

A picture tells a thousand words. If your picture was of you dancing a salsa or something I'd say it makes your masculinity seem slightly less (nothing wrong with that, it's appealing to some and not to others). A passport style photo is usually not appealing as it lacks imagination and might portray boring.  Pictures of people with a dog is always known as getting way more attention... so yeah. I'd be checking the fine details like that too.

To be clear, while I do have an athletic physique, I'm really not one for selfies, gym or otherwise. I was very careful to pick photos that looked natural and displayed hobbies, such as playing sport or being out with friends. I really don't have many photos of me dancing, at events photographers tend not to take photos of me, choosing the more attractive people instead.

I did actually borrow a puppy for a Tinder photo once! A friend had a black lab puppy, so I got a photo with it, looking quite outdoors-y, feeling good. Didn't do anything for my matches: and if a photo with a Labrador puppy can't get you any attention, you need to sit yourself down and ask yourself some questions.

8 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Yes. This is my point precisely. Not everyone who lives in the city needs to own a car, but without even a driver's license you can't rent a car for any reason.

You can't rent a car for the day or an errand or a weekend or a truck to move or anything. It's a huge disadvantage. Like being under 18 and not being "allowed" to do something.

So the argument about "I don't need a car" is moot. It's about the licence. It's about forced dependence on others when there's no need and being freer and more responsible.

Absolutely not, I'm not dependent on anyone. I get myself wherever I need to go, when I moved I hired a moving company, it's literally one step from renting the van. I've never needed to escape the city quickly, but should I feel the need, trains are very regular. About... twice or three times a year there'll be an event that's in the countryside and is a ball-ache to get to if you don't drive, but that would not justify the spend on my part.

11 hours ago, mylolita said:

I am from the UK! 

My experience is totally different - everyone I know drives! I fly in middle class circles where people have money for cars and what not, maybe that might be the difference. People who have expendable income normally end up with a car, especially when you start having children.

You may think women are simply looking at you and giving you the cold shoulder straight away, but peoples first impressions are incredibly vast. They judge your social status, financial status, confidence, health, age, sexuality - and more - in under a second. They don't have to have spoken to you either.

What do you project?

That is a genuine question. You think you are projecting confidence, a friendly nature, a fun social person. That's what you think. I ask in a genuine way - how do you know this? 
 

That's fair enough, you can only say what is true of your social circle. Like I said, within my circle, it's mostly people with families who drive, the majority of young people with no attachments don't seem to. It's not that I'm against ever learning to drive, it's that I've had no need of it so far.

I mean, it's easily said, but how exactly, from a photo, are people judging my social status, career opportunities, health etc? Or across a room in a bar? They literally have no idea if I'm a doctor with an Audi and an 11" schlong, or a drug dealer who lives with his parents. I dress nicely, but I don't go for flashy or expensive logos.

I agree entirely that women are looking for a complete package, but the ascertation that they know instantly if I can provide that just from a glance is poppycock. Surely the more obvious answer is that another part of the 'complete package' is 'good looking': If they see a good looking guy, they already know he has one part of the package, and will investigate further to see if the rest of his situation fits the bill. If they can see from a distance that he does not tick the 'good looking' box, they know already he's not the complete package.

The reason I believe I am a friendly, fun, social person, is because I have had very little in terms of self doubt, and I've never had a problem making friends very easily, whereas others my age have struggled. Pretty much every activity I've ever done, I've come away with a new friend very quickly, which is fairly unusual for a lot of people. I would argue that if I was not projecting myself as a funny, outgoing person, I would not be able to do so.

10 hours ago, Batya33 said:

On the female friends -don't joke around -be straight up "I am having a challenging time meeting people.  Do you know of any single women you can introduce me to?"  The "nothing wrong with you" is such a throwaway line.

Because this is such an active thread I "noticed" that among the small group I was in today with my son to do our in person orientation at the animal shelter we plan to volunteer at, there were two seemingly single guys maybe in their 20s-30s - neither "hot" but you know perfectly pleasant looking, one odd negative-seeming 20 something woman, and another single woman who was middle aged and fine looking (I strongly believed she was single). 

And I noticed a lot of friendly, casual, natural chatter among people who were there walking dogs, coming to foster or adopt, etc.  This location is near a walking trail where some of the volunteers walk the shelter dogs.  Anyway - just another "idea" of a way to meet people??

Yes, I've really had long in-depth conversations with them about it because it's something that's really bothering me, and I really value their opinions as friends. Sadly, because they know me, they know I'm hygenic, not awkward, go out a lot, so they really don't know what to suggest. They've lived their lives in a completely different way to mine, they don't seem to comprehend the scenario of putting yourself out there and having nobody be interested.

8 hours ago, Distressedmamma said:

Put it this way... someone with no licence can basically never leave the city unless you're doing a flying holiday or paying for distance transportation. 

Thats unattractive.  What about long drives in the countryside? Lol 

We regularly drive 7 hours to the next city where we are. I cant even imagine how limited life would be  and how small your little life bubble is to rarely leave a city. 

It's surprisingly common in UK cities for people not to learn to drive, I know enough single people of both genders who don't and it's not been a problem for them. In the long term it's a 'plus', of course, but I almost never get asked if I drive.

7 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I'm just going to make one final comment and that will be it from me. To me it actually sounds like you're just full of excuses. You say you're making all this effort and sure you are making some effort. But you sound stuck in your ways and in your head. Any suggestions people made here, you argued against and came up with all sorts of excuses and reasons why you won't do it or there's no point, etc.

The cooking class being one example. You said you can cook already, about 5 - 6 dishes. OK big whoop! Most people who are adults who live alone can probably do that. I mean it's great but there is no reason basically at all why you couldn't do a cooking class and learn to cook more things, especially new things. For example like taking classes from another culture/cuisine. You said something would have to be given up for you to do cooking classes. Like the gym or something. Well, you need to think about what your priorities are. If you're not meeting any women at the gym then you should be open to trying something else.

Sitting there writing 50 pages just calling yourself ugly and yet you have a reason to rebuff every single good suggestions made to you and you argue vigorously against them. Any example of unattractive people who are in relationships have either been simply ignored or somehow challenged by you.

I don't know if you're ugly, have no idea, but you sound extremely stubborn and have a bad and negative attitude.

Good luck to you.

Not full of excuses at all, I'm certainly finding it difficult to be heard, or at least understood. I say that I'm an outgoing person who's got no problems talking to anyone, and the next reply will be "sorry you've got this anxiety talking to girls, obviously it's not your looks", and it just feels like I'm hitting a brick wall. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the effort people have made here, I just don't think they believe the words that I'm saying, and I am compiling 14 years of experiences into this thread. I have tried a lot of things, and been rejected in a lot of different ways, that's not convenient excuses. 

Yes, with regards to the cooking classes: My point was that I have no interest in taking a cooking class as I'm happy with my own cooking, so me taking cooking classes would purely be based on finding women, which I think is a bad idea. Also considering I've listed at least three viable regular activities that I do that have a large influx of single women (dancing, meet-up groups, bars & clubs), my issue wasn't that I don't know where to meet women. Would being a more accomplished cook help me in a long term relationship? Absolutely. But it's of zero used to me when I can't even get my foot in the door when I'm turned down just from a photo of my face.

Can you imagine my female friends trying to set me up with one of their single friends, and showing them a photo:

"Sorry, he doesn't look like my type."
"I know, but he makes a lovely Rogan Josh. He can even deliver it for you in his 2003 Ford Focus."

4 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Do you have close personal friends who are women -single or otherwise? And sorry if you answered this -do you find yourself generalizing about women or categories of women in a negative way? 

So I have a naive question about swing dancing -a number of my friends partook over the years and yes it's a great way to meet people (my friend married her salsa dancing instructor over 10 years ago!) - I understand about the rotating partners and I went to a sort of type of swing dancing lesson once where yes partners rotated, even partners who were there with dates -I think.  

I was at the wedding of my friend who married her instructor.  Lots of dancers there (including I guess swing dancers as I think her husband taught that as well?).  I was pregnant not showing yet.  My soon to be husband was there with me. 

I excused myself for the restroom and it took me longer (because of the pregnancy).  When I came back my husband was dancing with this woman.  He's a great dancer (took lessons with an ex girlfriend, likes swing music etc). 

I wasn't angry -trust my husband- but I was annoyed.  I stared at her I think.  He came over to me and explained that she asked him to dance.  He said he was here with me, I was coming right back (but I didn't).  She pestered him, explaining that it's how it works with swing dancing - rotating partners.  Except this was a wedding.  Not a swing dancing event.  And my husband had said no. 

My husband gave in as he felt awkward by this point and hoped I'd rescue him soon.  She was treated to a couple more stares from me as I thought it was rude of her how she behaved.

Makes me wonder -a bit -do you find the women you interact with are socially appropriate and are there to meet men to date or is it more for a night out of fun/honing dancing skills? Obviously this was just one woman who lacked basic manners and I had friends who participated in order to meet men (although not the bride really from all I knew).  Just wondering.  I have recommended dancing as you do as a way to meet women. That situation gave me a bit of a pause. 

Yes, I would say about half of my close friendships are women, the majority of my friends are couples, so that's just how it falls. I have asked them, discreetly, for some form of help, but as I said, it's just cartoonishly supportive "but there's nothing wrong with you!", which leaves me really very little to improve on. As much as I see these women only as friends, it's painfully obvious if they were single they wouldn't go for me. 

As for your question: It's a tricky one. At social swing events, it's completely normal to ask anyone to dance, even if you're there with your spouse and so are they, there's really nothing in it, it's just for the love of dancing. Okay, so this was a wedding but the social circle was full of people who dance, I don't think the woman was in the wrong to ask your husband to dance if she knew him and knew he danced. That would be on him to explain he's taking care of his pregnant wife, and would dance with her later. 

As for my classes; there's a mix. There are some older couples looking for something to do, there are experienced dancers who are new in town and just looking to dance, there are young single people. The young single people, the ones who really get taken with the scene, start to want a partner who can dance, as they'll already enjoy the scene and going to the social events, as well as learning more advanced things together. So it's surprisingly common for single women to start asking around to see who's available. I'm glad that you 'recommended dancing as a way to meet people', but since it's literally something I said in my opening post that I've been doing for nearly 10 years, I've got that part covered!

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

No, not buying a car. Just take your driver's test. Why not? At least you could rent a car if you ever needed to. 

Of course a license, cooking lessons, or help with your anxiety isn't going to put you on the cover of Time magazine's "sexiest man alive", but it won't hurt you either.

So it's a win-win situation Instead of defeatist and self-undermining thinking.

Wait... so your plan is for me to learn to drive, and then... not get a car? I'm not playing dumb here, I don't understand how this is supposed to help anything. If I'm still walking/cycling/taking transportation to places, should I get a badge or a t-shirt to assure women that I do in fact possess a driver's licence?

Again, I don't have anxiety meeting or talking to people, I'm very social, that's not the issue I'm having.

2 hours ago, mylolita said:

The swing dancing thing! Well! 
 

I have been to one swing dancing class! I am… a dancer! I got by! What I noticed was, and OP correct me if I am wrong, is that those classes have their core regulars who always attend, and the influx of new people, new girls coming in, isn’t very high? You might get a couple of new people every month? Most drop out, some stay on?

 

The reason I suggest a traditional bar is because the volume of strangers and new people is very high - the turn over of new women, also very high. There will be potentially hundreds of women there in any single night you have never met or seen.

 

I mean, I know maybe “the club” or “the bar” seems shady to some but, it’s where so many couples meet! My parents met at their local country club. Eric Clapton was playing, something like that! They were having drinks, my Dad was out with his older brother, my mum was with her cousin. I wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for that club! My husbands parents met at a bar. I’m sure many do. You can’t rule it out completely as a way to meet women unless you maybe are against drinking or nightlife. Some people it’s not their scene so I totally get that, but there is no doubt in my mind, a fantastic way to meet a high volume of new women.

 

I am listening as well - I was defending others suggestion about clothes and hygiene even though you have that covered, because it is a valid suggestion to make. You have to make sure the basics are covered. We are trying to get to the source of your issue, ticking off potential stumbling blocks. 

 

You claim confidence but… a confident guy wouldn’t be asking online for advice and opinion. You must be feeling it in some way to be here. If you have it all worked out and it’s just your face that is the problem, what more is there to do? Keep trying, or give up? I am being sincere when I ask you that.

 

My impression is your attitude is the issue, this is a good and a bad thing. It means you can change something, as your face is much harder to alter. But no one wants to hear their attitude might be the cause of the problem. I realise that is a hard pill to swallow, and that you feel I am wrong. Maybe I am, but that is my instinct from talking back and forth with you on here OP.  
 

I think we are all trying to be as constructive as we can be. I have even tried to suggest lines and ways to talk to women. What you say and how you say it does matter. “Can I buy you a drink” and “Let me buy you a drink” or “What are you drinking?- different phases make all the difference in my opinion. Ever talked to a sales person on the art of persuasion or negotiation? We all have to sell ourselves at some point in our life, never more so when we first meet the opposite sex in that first 5 minutes. 
 

x

Sort of! Of course there are core regulars in classes and social events, but being a big city we do get a high turnover of new young people; either students, or people coming over for work who are looking for a hobby. Not all stay on, of course, but as an opportunity to meet young single people, it's pretty golden.

Again, I'm not against bars and nightlife, as I've said I do go out most weekends to bars & clubs, my comment was that it's less fruitful if you're an unattractive person. I go with friends, and we have a good time talking, dancing etc, but usually the single ones end up pulling and I'm just dancing with my friends the entire night. That's not an awful thing, I'll say, but I'm just pointing out that it really is a different experience to ones you may have had.

Honestly I don't believe my attitude is the issue, purely because for the majority of my life I am a positive person, and I've had no issues making new friends. If my attitude was awful, I don't think I would have succeeded in that are quite so well. I have also pointed out, several times, that I am frequently rejected just from a visual perspective, without chance for my attitude to help or hinder me. When women in the club say "he's ugly!", they aren't talking about my mental headspace, they are referring to my physically. Yes, before you ask, I stand up straight, make eye contact with people.

2 hours ago, mylolita said:

It’s nice to be picked up for a date by the guy, especially as you get to know him. It’s nice to take drives together. Often when you are young, your car is your only sanctuary away from parents (okay somewhere to make out!). 
 

OP and others think it’s irrelevant but it is very relevant to me, personally! 
 

x

This may be a cultural thing, but in the UK it's not really that common to 'pick up' your date, women don't tend to give out their home addresses, nearly all of the time you meet your date at the bar or venue. I've lived in a city on my own since I was 18, I've had no issue with independence, it's just a culture where a lot of people don't drive.

2 hours ago, mylolita said:

And I have to say, most people can drive, have a license, so it does stand out as an unusual thing for me personally, especially if you get to your 30s and never passed your test. I’m trying to rack my brains and I actually don’t know anyone who can’t drive! I’m sure I must, but no one comes to mind. Only much younger people under 21.

x

Again, I think this is a culture thing. In big cities in the UK, it's incredibly common for people to never learn how to drive. The ones that do, usually do it either for work or because they need to transport their families. I don't get asked if I can drive, so I cannot see how it is being held against me.

1 hour ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

@mylolita you nailed it. However, don't count on @MysteriousTelephoneto watch the video as he doesn't have time to do so apparently. I forwarded a useful video previously, but OP won't take a look 🤓

That aside, I love Jordan's talks!! He's very good at what he does.

Wow, super salty I didn't get around to watching a YouTube video? That's not deliberate, I assure you, I really am doing my best to reply to everyone and make sure I address their specific points, I get yelled at if I don't. Perhaps if you write anything you need to say, rather than asking me to watch a video, you'll get a better response.

2 hours ago, mylolita said:

 

I do like Jordan Peterson, though I don't feel he's talking to me in this video. I don't feel angry at women, afraid of talking to them, or feel I'm only taking to women who are 'out of my league'.

I do feel this talk is aimed more at the men who aren't very social, don't dress nicely, can't talk to girls, live with their parents etc. Sure, I agree, he's not wrong, those are things you need to work on if you expect to get anywhere. My question is: what do you do if you're doing all of those things, and still getting nowhere?

8 hours ago, Tinydance said:

Well would it hurt to at least try some more of these things? For example, cooking class? They're full of women and even if you don't find anyone, you can improve your cooking! If you don't really care about driving that's OK. I didn't care about driving until I was 28 years myself. That's when I got my driver's license. It definitely can't hurt to drive though. It's more appealing when your partner drives and you don't need to go pick them up or give them lifts. I don't really see why you're being defensive about these suggestions as they're not bad suggestions (in my opinion). If you get nothing out of it in regards to dating, that's unfortunate. But they are not pointless. For example, any class you do, you learn something/make something in that class.

The thing is, I'm not a bad cook, I cook for myself every day. Like most single people I may rotate between 5-6 meals, but I always use fresh ingredients and don't survive on microwave meals and frozen pizzas. I really feel no 'need' to take a cooking class, so I would be taking a cooking class entirely to meet women. I feel that's definitely the wrong approach, because if it didn't happen I'd be annoyed, and I wouldn't reap the benefits as it's something I'm fairly capable of.

There is also the aspect of time: between work, gym (3-4 times a week), dancing (usually twice), seeing friends, and also having a night to myself, I really don't believe I would have the time to take up a completely new hobby. Something would have to give, either taking a back step on fitness or on dancing, and those are both things I'm passionate about. If I spent every evening and weekend sat in front of a computer, I'd have to agree with you, but 5 nights out of 7 I'm out of my house doing something social.

3 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

If you're friends are telling you this or this is what others have suggested, why won't you try addressing it?

You stated you have your own apartment and a good job,so getting a driver's license and treating yourself to some updated clothes couldn't be that hard, right?

Being negative is also something you could look into through therapy or an evaluation of your physical and mental health by a physician.

Either way, whether it's to improve your dating life or in general, they're all things you can do rather than perseverating and fixating on your looks.

In fact the cooking classes, license, being more positive and some updated clothes sound like great ideas. So rather than scoff at your friends, give their suggestions a try.

No, these are not my friends suggestions, those were the list of suggestions from this thread.

Living in the city, I really wouldn't drive that much, it is just too inconvenient, I would say about half the people my age do not drive, the ones that do are because they have families to transport or jobs that do not require it. I would be working harder, paying out thousands, for a car I really would not use. I never said my clothes were outdated, nor have any of my friends, that's just been a suggestion posted in this thread from people who've never seen me.

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to ask... how would you say going to see a doctor would be relevant in this situation?

3 hours ago, mylolita said:

MysteriousTelephone,
 

I see it as, why reduce your chances? Especially if you are struggling. So having a drivers license can only be a positive thing, it won’t be a negative against you. Same for being groomed, smelling great, having a neat wardrobe that compliments you, and widening your experiences/trying new things. I doubt these suggestions are going to harm your chances with women.

 

This is generally appealing stuff for most women. When you get down to each individual woman, what they want personally with vary of course, but having a good career, your own apartment, being able to drive, socialising, smelling great and being groomed and presentable won’t harm.

 

Approaching as many women as you find attractive will not only give you practice at approaching women (even the most smooth guys know they always have more to learn), but it might build your confidence and take some of the doubt or fear away. The more you approach as well, the more likely you are to find someone who you like and who likes you. 
 

Honestly, the most effective men I have witnessed don’t approach women with unusual or intelligent or cryptic interest spiking chat up lines. You just want to not be painfully awkward, that in turn puts her at ease. Something beyond simple often works. A compliment, then direct - “let me buy you a drink” - don’t ask her if you can, she is more likely to say no. Kind of… tell her, but you are asking at the same time. The drink holds her to a bit of conversation (why bars are just so stereotypical for meeting the opposite sex)! 
 

As other women have suggested, being somewhere where there are a lot of the opposite sex just increases your chances! I always say, if I hadn’t been a cocktail waitress for 2 years during college, I would never have met my husband. A classy bar like that, you meet thousands of men night after night. I got chance to talk to so many, simply waitressing. The male staff were so popular as well - ever seen the film with Tom Cruise ‘Cocktail’?! 🤣 

 

I know it’s not a popular suggestion anymore but, there is nothing wrong with a really nice bar in my opinion. Kills the nerves, a stiff drink, for everyone. I always think, half of us wouldn’t have been born had it not been for a club, a bar, and some alcohol!!!

 

I’ve never been to a cooking class and even as a married 32 year old woman with young kids, I would love to try it out, just to gain some skills and mingle!

 

You are in your prime for a man - the 30s is a great age for men. Women normally gravitate towards that age bracket, especially if they want to settle down or get into a serious relationship. It’s not all bad! 
 

x

As much I really appreciate the time you've taken to write this, it really does feel like you're not listening, or reading my responses. I continue to mention that I'm groomed, hygenic, I dress to compliment my features, these are all things I have been doing since I was 18. As much as you can't see me and these are basic things to suggest, I need you to believe me when I say I have got those bases covered. Again, I'm seeing you talk about 'doubt' and 'fear', when I approach women, when I've mentioned none of that: I don't have such doubts or fears, that's really not my issue.

As I continue to say; I am out where single women are, quite a lot of the time. Swing dancing in particular is an environment where women my age often come to meet guys, because partners rotate in classes, it's a great environment to go something physical with a stranger whilst also showcasing something I'm good at. I also do go out to bars & clubs, that's not a problem. I also chat to people and make friends in my gym.

Like I've said earlier, if I spent my evenings and weekends sat in front of a computer then I'd have to change something, but if most nights of the week I'm out doing something social, I don't know what to do. I'm glad that you did ok for attention as a hot cocktail waitress, but it's just not the same experience for ugly dudes, so the suggestion of just "go to a bar and you'll meet someone" definitely comes from your world experience, not mine. 

On 11/3/2022 at 11:32 PM, Batya33 said:

What does that even mean -that someone who "finds a relationship" when they are young somehow is in a better position than someone who doesn't?

Okay, I'm going to pre-face this and say that though I did read all of the replies since I last logged in, I'm not going to reply to every person, since many are talking to each other. If anyone has a direct question for me, please quote me here and I'll get back to you on this forum. I really do appreciate people taking time out of their day on this one, even if we don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of things.

I mean, it should go without saying that your first relationship is a milestone of becoming an adult, either successful or otherwise. Literal 14 year olds can just exist and fall into relationships (with other 14 year olds, I hasten to add), though when I come on here and am awfully concerned that being in my 30s, and treated as an ugly person, makes this difficult, I am told it's: because I don't drive, because I don't own my own place, that I'm trying too hard, that I'm not trying hard enough, that I'm too negative, that I need to take cooking classes, overhaul my wardrobe and also find time to ask out 100 women on the street. I mean, just to clarify, your average teenager has none of those things, so you can imagine my frustration when verifiably they are doing better than me romantically. And it's not an 'elite' select few, most people have a relationship before they're 20.

13 hours ago, Tinydance said:

Well I actually gave advice even in the case of being ugly. For example, asking out women who are also unattractive. I'm sure unattractive women would also have issues dating, but they still want to find someone. 

Also it's possible to have some plastic surgery done if the person really was quite ugly. I think there is also a difference between someone who is average, plain and actually ugly. When I think of the word ugly I think of someone unpleasant to look at. Or maybe disfigured in some way. 

For example if a plain man cold approached a woman, maybe she'll say no. Maybe she'd say yes to a cute guy because she'd be flattered that a cute guy noticed her. So it's true that the plain man has to work harder. In his case he may need to actually get to know women in person and go for women who are also average. But I think the point everyone was trying to make is that it's not impossible to still find someone, even if it's more difficult.

Also just some of OP's statements sounded very generalised and exaggerated. Which is why I maybe got the impression that he exaggerated his "ugliness". He said every time a woman rejected him, then she found a handsome man instead. And that all his friends are attractive and that's why they don't believe him. How can every woman find a handsome man and every one of his friends be attractive? Just doesn't sound realistic.

To me that sounded like some kind of complex where a person believes basically all/most other people to be attractive but consider themselves ugly.

Again, I really don't want you to think I'm being very picky and only expressing interest in 'select' women; some of the women I've liked, my friends didn't really see it, they have been all shapes and sizes.

If I had a specific thing I could change via surgery, I would probably consider being in debt for the rest of my life in order to correct it. Sadly I'm unable to pin it down to anything specific. I'm sure if I went for a consultation, the surgeon would sign me up for a whole list of options, but then that surgeon has an interest in my custom. I don't have a huge nose, or wrinkles, eyebrows are fine, I have a chin. There's really no obvious single thing that I can ascertain is holding me back, all I know is that they don't like what they see.

Sure, and I've never said I approach women from cold: usually there is a shared activity, or a friend that introduces us to find common ground. Though I'm not against asking women out from a completely cold approach: as you've said, that's a strategy that doesn't favour the "aesthetically challenged".

Really, every experience I've listed in this thread has been completely true. I realise it can come across as 'vague' to you because I'm talking about people that you don't know, but I really have nothing to gain by telling you the many ways I've been told I'm unattractive, both directly and indirectly. If you have a question about anything I've said, please ask, I'd rather set the record straight than have anyone just assume something. Yes, my friends do not believe me when I tell them the stories I've told you, because they've lived very different lives. I've no idea how I fell into having groups of attractive friends, I certainly didn't pick them that way, it's just the way things have fallen. Though I'm uncomfortable showing a photo of myself, I could link a few photos of my extremely photogenic friends and you'd say "Yeah.... I get it."

I don't believe that I'm the "only" ugly person, just that I am one, and I really don't know what more I can do about it. I know other ugly people are out there, and I know even they're doing better than me romantically. But when I feel I'm doing ok on every other front that I can, I generally do feel out of options.

11 minutes ago, MikalJoyner said:

It isn’t your time yet 

I do have to question the idea that the majority of the population finds a relationship in their teen years, but I specifically have to wait for "my time" because.... reasons?

13 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Google "Mike Tyson".  He's been married 3 times. Besides looking battered from his profession, that face tattoo just doesn't help, as far as looks go.

Counter-point: google a photo of Mike Tyson at 17.

He's just a different breed of human being. My whole class generally just looked like tall children at that age, dude is something else. Same goes for Dwayne Johnson at 17, Mark Wahlberg, or Arnie. Some people are just built different.

It's like if you had to explain all the animals on Earth to an alien, and you pointed out a chihuahua and a wolf and said to the alien "Yo, they're the same species." the alien wouldn't believe you. 

On 11/1/2022 at 4:20 PM, Batya33 said:

I think it could be as simple as you are better looking in person and don't photograph well. Have you ever had professional photos done? Asked for feedback from a professional?

I mean... isn't "doesn't photograph well" just code for "ugly but with a good personality"?

By definition, cameras don't capture what isn't there. We all think we're slightly better looking than we really are, and think it must be just a bad photo. I remember reading about a study done in Cambridge, where people were shown 11 versions of the same photo of themselves: 1 unedited, 5 edited to look 'slightly better' and 5 edited to look 'slightly worse', and asked them to pick the one they thought was real. The majority picked one that was slightly edited to flatter them; we literally can't pick ourselves out from a lineup.

21 hours ago, waffle said:

So you've been specifically told you're ugly, and are universally rejected both online and in person.

Assuming your appearance is the sole problem, what sort of responses or solutions can anyone here give?  We have no control over your facial features.

Honestly? I really have no idea, I guess I wasn't looking for an immediate solution from this, more to share my experience and hopefully speak to someone who'd been through the same. I've yet to talk to anyone who's gone this long without any romantic encounter, on here it's mostly been people who know someone else who went through something.

19 hours ago, mylolita said:

Can I be cruel to be weirdly kind?

 

If I were single, I wouldn’t say yes, and I have never even seen your face! I’m sorry Mysterious, but I think as this thread goes on, the answer may be in your attitude? 
 

I say this in the nicest possible way. What vibe are you giving off? Maybe it’s not such a great confident and positive one like you may suspect? Maybe it’s a weary and hopeless and “seen it all before just know you’re going to say no” attitude? Strangers gather their first impression of someone within under a second. Forget your appearance maybe - what vibe do you  think you project? Is it a welcoming, friendly, easy going one? I don’t get that from your responses here.

 

I say this in the nicest possible way and of course I could be wrong because again, I don’t know you - just going by what you have put here and what I feel you have projected in your responses.

 

x

Right, but you must understand that these conversations we're having in this thread are, bizarrely unique, and are not indicative of the conversations I have with anyone else, particularly people I don't know.

I do honestly believe I give an outgoing, confident vibe. Wether it's dancing, fitness, photography, I'm usually doing something I'm good at and confident doing. I'm generally a happy-go-lucky individual, it is a recent phenomenon that I'm beginning to feel this way.

I would say that, if I did not give off a positive vibe, I would not find making friends so easy, which is not the case: I genuinely pick up friends very easily from every walk of life, such as dancing, my gym, social events etc. If I really struggled with friendships, then I would absolutely have to take up the idea that I was giving off a negative vibe.

19 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

It seems you've draw the conclusion that women swipe left because you believe they aren't attracted to your face. Since according to you, you've ruled everything else out and tried everything you can think of so far.

I mean... literally what else is there? If everything else that can be improved, has been, what's left? People are not seeing a profile photo, and turning me down based on my job, religion, class, or literally anything else. When all they know about you is "you look like this" and they say hell no, what other conclusion is there to make?

18 hours ago, moodindigo91 said:

I don't really think I am. I think YOU are missing my point, and the point of many others on this thread, which is the it seems like the main reason you can't get dates/a girlfriend has something to do with your attitude. The way you have resigned yourself to a foregone conclusion, and refuse to actually accept any advice on the matter. You just say, well I've been there and done that and it's never worked before. Plus, look at all this outside evidence I have that proves I have an ugly face. That guy in the video, for instance, not exactly traditionally handsome. Yet he got plenty of women to say "yes." The point is that you should think about what you're doing, that has nothing to do with your physical looks, that is causing women to turn you down. 

No matter how often we say, hey, ugly faces have not stopped plenty of men from finding romance. 

You're circling back to "must be your attitude", and totally ignoring the examples I give when I'm turned down just from a visual perspective, without even getting a chance for my attitude to get in my way. I really tried my best in my opening post to explain my situation clearly, that I meet plenty of people, that I'm confident in talking to people and make friends easily, yet the helpful responses just roll off the usual "sorry you're not that confident talking to women" and "well, have you tried meeting more people?", it's literally like they didn't read it.

Yes, this is a fairly negative conversation, largely because I'm having to explain all the various ways I've reached the conclusion that I'm not attractive, only to have strangers say "oh no, you're not ugly, there must be some other reason!" which isn't at all helpful when you've not lived this life, and generally ignore all the examples presented to you.

15 hours ago, Tinydance said:

One of my theories is that for some reason you think all the other men are handsome and you're not. I doubt that's the case. I mean yeah you might be an average guy but so are most other guys (and women). 

I somehow doubt that when women don't want to date you, then they appear with a "handsome" guy on their arm. How is it possible that every woman can get a handsome guy? Yes maybe they rejected you for all sorts of reasons. Probably not even to do with you. This happens to everyone. Then they met A GUY they liked. I find it difficult to believe that in every case it was a handsome guy.

Also you said that all your friends are pretty people and that's why they don't believe your struggles. Really, ALL your friends? Did you somehow become friends with everyone in a modelling agency? Lol

I don't understand how you're saying everyone is handsome and pretty but you're the only one that isn't. Unless you somehow made your way amongst models or Hollywood celebrities, statistically that just can't be the case.

It's not that I think 'all' other men are handsome, I realise that the average guy has never had this issue. If so, can I really call myself 'average'? If you can get to 30 without anybody wanting to date you or find you attractive, can you really with a serious face call yourself 'average'? By definition, that's "below average". Even then, the Elephant Man got married in his 20s, my love life is verifiably worse than the Elephant Man.

Yes, that's happened quite a few times. I've often had the "I'm just happy being single, I don't want to be with anyone" brush off, only to have that person appear within a couple of weeks with an attractive person. Maybe in some cases they were already interested in that person and were waiting, maybe in other cases they met them afterwards? Who's to say? I can honestly say I've never been turned down by someone, only for them to go for an unattractive person.

Pretty much. I mean it's a comical exaggeration on your part to jump to "oh so you must be friends with models!" but really, the majority of my friends are very conventionally attractive people: happily married but still get hit on regularly (both sexes), always get photographed at events, a couple did some model work in their 20s. I'm sure they have had many obstacles to overcome over the years that I know nothing about and could not comprehend, but likewise when I tell them it's a hard world out there when you're treated as ugly, they just don't understand it.

On 10/26/2022 at 1:57 AM, Tinydance said:

I've actually done speed dating quite a few times. I was very generous with ticking most men there as a match because I just wanted to get to know them more, since they were strangers. Sometimes I got no matches at all and sometimes maybe between 1 - 4. But having said that, after I did get the matches, some of those men didn't actually contact me or respond if I contacted them. And as I mentioned before, I am not ugly by any means and I'm very friendly and bubbly.

 

Sorry guys, been away for a few days!

I'm really surprised to hear your speed dating story! Such is the dynamics of dating, I would always expect men to be more generous with ticks than women, and that no woman would leave without a single tick. I really can't believe it! Like you say, that's not to say the matches that you did get were any good, of course.

On 10/26/2022 at 3:01 PM, Carnatic said:

@MysteriousTelephone

So what would you do, do you think. If tomorrow you got some piece of evidence that was impossible to ignore that suggested you were actually in the top 10% or something of men, in terms of general physical attractiveness.

I mean, I don't think I'd "do" anything different: I'd still pursue my hobbies, still go out socially and meet people, just the end result might not be spending the rest of my year alone romantically.

On 10/26/2022 at 3:55 PM, boltnrun said:

I believe the fact that you can't even come up with any sort of answer to the question "Why do you think thousands of other so-called 'ugly' men are able to find girlfriends and wives but you haven't been able to?" is the key.

Perhaps those other men have discovered something you haven't been able to discover.

Seriously, for as many times as you ask the same question, I am still unable to answer it. All manner of men, all shapes and sizes, yet I'm the one nobody wants. I cannot answer it, and I look forward to you asking the same question again very soon.

On 10/26/2022 at 4:15 PM, Tinydance said:

Also he hasn't been able to come up with any particular reason why he would be/is considered ugly. He also said he's probably average...? In one comment he said he thinks his face maybe is not symmetrical? But yet said he's not disfigured. I mean, basically everyone's face is symmetrical. No offence but if it wasn't then I think the person could probably be considered somewhat disfigured. 

I mean, if someone is fit and slim, not disfigured, no acne, no scars, no disabilities. How ugly can they really be?

Yup, like I said, I can find no objective reason. What I have observed over the years is that every aspect of my appearance has changed: clothes (we all go through phases, and grow up), hair, body type (I've since gained muscle mass), the only thing that has not changed is my face. Sure, if I was skinny, I'd work on that, if I hadn't changed my hairstyle or updated my wardrobe, I'd start with those. But when all of those have been done, and the only constant in this 12 years is my face, and people say 'definitely not!' based on a photo of my face... I don't really know what other conclusions to draw here. I don't personally feel like I look like I should be living under a bridge, but I'm damn sure treated that way.

On 10/26/2022 at 10:58 PM, moodindigo91 said:

After 8 pages of commentary (with possibly more coming), I will very interested in an update post a couple of months or a year down the line lol 

I just came across this video which might be helpful. Maybe you can do a similar experiment, because you would probably get some pretty good feedback. I really think this video helps show that the reasons for saying no are many and varied and may not even have anything to do with physical attraction. It also has a lot to do with your approach, especially your confidence and the way you carry yourself. 

 

Again, I think you're not really reading my issue: this is not a fear of rejection, or being unable to ask people out. I'm a social person, and don't have any confidence issues asking people out. I get what you're going for with the video, but watching strangers with a camera pointed at them saying they 'would' go on a date with a YouTuber really doesn't seem to apply to me. Sure, I get it, people have personal stuff going on, not wanting to date anyone, not over their ex, there's a dozen reasons. What I am talking about is women who are actively seeking a man, that I get on with and can make laugh, but do not want to go out with me, and a week later appear with a handsome man on their arm.... I'm not putting 2 and 2 together and getting 10 here.

11 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Yes try that site since you already like cheap hook-up looks-based apps like tinder. You'll get exactly that. Opinions from people you've never met. Even ones that are consistent with your stance. A sort of confirmation bias heaven.

I'm really not looking to have any bias confirmed, but you must see that the opinion of 10 single women is more useful to me than the opinion of 100 straight men or married women.

7 hours ago, mylolita said:

Sorry @MysteriousTelephone, we were being polite, you’re too ugly - give up 🤓

 

I hope that helps! 
 

No, seriously, I think @Kwothe28is onto something, I really do. People have a lovey knack of picking up on negativity or desperation or whatever you want to name your feelings of “everyone out of my league” it just seems, defeatist, before you’ve ever begun. And I know 12 years is along time but people have to wait or look for much longer, it’s definitely not uncommon. Most men could probably write your post at some point in their life, if not for a majority of it.

 

I think I’m trying to say, it’s not as bleak or bad or hopeless as you might think. 
 

You’re probably great at other things - people can’t get an easy ride on everything in life. Maybe you are academic, practical, naturally athletic, funny, have a special talent or a loving and caring family. We all struggle with something. What comes easy to one is not going to be easy for another, and vice versa.
 

x 

No, really, I've never asked someone out with a defeatist attitude; I may not be afraid of rejection, but I certainly don't invite it by asking people out when I'm sure they'll say no. 12 years is absolutely uncommon, I've yet to find anyone with a record that's even close. A few people on this thread have mentioned they've known people to take a little bit longer, who've had troubles talking to women etc, but none of that applies here, and even in their examples, they did not reach 30 in that same situation.

It's a really hard one to put my finger on, though I put it down to Occam's Razor, the logic that when presented with a problem, the most obvious solution is usually the correct one: when you hear hoofbeats you'd think "horses!" not "zebras!", is the example to explain this. So you have someone that's never had anyone attracted to them, that people reject based off a photo, that when friends try to set him up with their friends, their friends say "no way!". Do you go to A) Maybe.... this person isn't attractive? Or B) Obviously they just need to be more confident!

6 hours ago, Coily said:

Just a thought for the OP, maybe write a sample dating profile (leaving it very anonymous) on a separate thread. Sometimes it is the tone we unintentionally impart negatives.

I have to wonder if you have gone in to asking a woman out with the already defeated mindset? I know a lot are talking about seeming desperate etc, but self defeat may come across more strongly than expected.

Have you written down a list of characteristics you are looking for, and won't settle on? If so have you shared it with worthwhile friends who want to help?

It is dang annoying to be stuck in the rejection rut, it seems there is no way out. Hope you find your feet, and have a lot of luck.

I really wouldn't say I've come in with a defeated mindset, quite the reverse, I'm fairly optimistic. Like the speed dating, I honestly felt good about myself, enjoyed the conversations I had and felt I came off pretty well, everyone praised me, and I went away thinking I'd got somewhere. Cut to the following morning, when I found out that 12 out of 12 women ticked 'no' for me, and were just being polite. The magic power of self belief did nothing to help me.

I have tried to get my friends to set me up with their friends, to no success. The majority of the time the 'friend' says no once pictures are exchanged, others that have already met me said no immediately.

21 hours ago, Tinydance said:

OK well you are not disfigured in any way which is definitely a plus! I'm actually not being patronising but some people really are disfigured. You probably also don't have anything wrong with your skin such as acne, since you never mentioned that. 

I'm not invalidating your experiences but dating really is very hard. I'm speaking from my own experience as well. I mean, when I'm walking down the street or your average person, it's not like heads are being turned. I'm not sure why you have all these "pretty people" friends but most people are not necessarily pretty. 

Also I have had some people be jerks to me about my looks. Thankfully not that many. I do remember one guy from online dating, when I said I enjoy walking, looked me up and down and said: You don't LOOK like a walker". What he implied of course is that only slim people can like walking! Overweight people simply cannot like walking because didn't you know, they never move from the couch! Lol

Anyway you can't change your face so I think accepting it might be the next step. If there is technically nothing wrong with your face then I'm sure someone will like you one day. I mean you can't even really pinpoint what about you is "ugly" and neither could your friends. If they didn't believe you maybe it's because they don't actually think you're ugly?

No, sadly, they really are "pretty people", that's not even just my own opinion. They spent their 20s in a bubble of kindness, free drinks and outdoor sex. I am definitively the odd one out when we take group photos. As lovely as they are, they're not my target market; they are straight men and married women. So while they might coo "Oh there's nothing wrong, any woman would be lucky to have you!" it literally means nothing as the single women of the world seem to hold a different opinion. It's like saying your brand of rubber tyres is only rated highly by people who don't have cars: it's nice and all, but what can you do with that information?

Acceptance of the face is one thing, but I never really had a problem with it in the first place. So as much as I've always accepted it... where do you go from there?

21 hours ago, mylolita said:

I’m legitimately curious Mysterious! How many women have you asked out in 12 years? If it is under 40, then I would say that is farrrr too little to get any response at all. 
 

If you said I have asked out over 100 in 12 years I might start to think you are doing something wrong - but if it’s just not often enough, not meeting women you like and directly asking them enough, that could be your problem. That’s my hunch, anyway, not that you are unattractive or not a good catch on paper but because you may think you have asked out plenty of women but over your timeframe, actually not enough to get a positive outcome at all!

 

x

Honestly, that sounds about right. 100 in 12 years, breaks down to asking out 8 women per year, even adjusting for Covid it still works out about asking out 9.5 women per year. So yes, I would certainly lowball at 100, maybe 150. Not often enough? Maybe, I really don't keep a tally of the women I've asked out, or even what constitutes "asking out". Does it only apply to women I've actually asked to go out on a date? If so, that's around that 100 number you're talking about. But then what about women I may not have asked out directly, just tried to get to know a little better, and was shut down? Do they count? Or women in clubs and bars that just move away from me if they see me? Or the hundreds of people swiping 'no' on me over the last 12 years? I mean it's easy to say "not enough, keep at it!" but this does feel like a secret campaign against me at this point.

21 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I actually also have proof that women don't really ask guys out themselves. One of my close male friends is very handsome and six foot tall. He used to be socially awkward and he didn't really talk to women much. At one point he hadn't been with any woman at all in any way for six years! Then he built up his confidence and began to get more women. But still it was him hitting on women, not really the other way around.

Oh I'm under no illusions, I know women don't ask guys out themselves, I never expected it. My issue, as I continue to mention, is not a confidence issue, it is that women find me unattractive. 

20 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

How about you post a picture of yourself, full body, and let us really get in touch with what's stopping the women from even saying hello back to you?

We might be able to give you some more valuable feedback since this is where you're allegedly stuck.

We can tell mods to delete it once you get all the feedback. Or post a link that expires to it.

I definitely think we are at that point now where I could post a picture of a person from a Victorian freak show, and the members of this thread would chime in with "See? You're not so bad! It's just an insane coincidence! Now get back out there, you scamp!", whether it's to be reassuring or just genuinely to contradict me at this point.

19 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

Lol. I dated the girl who told me that she left her 1,5 years relationship because she met his family and his aunt was kinda crazy. She joked(at least I hoped at the time, but maybe there was an element of truth) how she "doesnt mix her genetic material with just anybody". 

Anyway, OP, how is your "numbers game"? Lets say you meet 20 women. And that you want to get to know better 10 of them. Do you ask for phone number? Call out on date? How many of 10 of them straight up reject you? 

I am asking because lots of people dont get straight up rejected but just assume (out of fear of rejection or low self- esteem) that they dont have a shot. So they dont "shoot their shot" and ask for further contact. If you for example get straight up rejected out of all of those 10 women, then I would consider that you are lacking something and that you need to improve. But I just cant see how somebody that is generally prolific gets rejected that hard. Dont get me wrong, I emphatize a lot because dating trully is hard sometimes. Just asking to determine what you might do or not do so you would get dates and relationships.

I never really had a fear of rejection, I think when you're exposed to it early on it just desensitizes you to it going forward. So really, I can strike up and hold a conversation with anyone, no problem, never had the "Can't talk to her, she's out of my league!" feeling; they're all out of my league, so I may as well talk to someone. I really can't give you hard numbers as every situation is different; asking for numbers only happens if I've been talking to someone for a little bit, which only happens if they allow me to talk to them. So take the 10 women I may be interested in, the possibility of even asking for a number will only occur with maybe 2?

15 hours ago, abitbroken said:

I have not been around in awhile, but have to say "We are doing this again?"  Another 7 page, which will be 12 pages about a dude thinking they are too ugly to date.  If you think that= then you are.  Look at Steven Tyler's yearbook photo.  He is an internationally known rock star and he admits he was very unfortunate looking so that's why he got involved with music.  I still think he is odd looking/not an attractive man. 

If you can't meet a woman because you think your face is ugly, you don't want to meet a woman and have decided to not cultivated ANYTHING about yourself thats interesting or you only want a supermodel

ugly+rich =wife/girlfriends
ugly+kind=wife/girlfriend
ugly+funny=wife/girlfriend
ugly+humanitarian=wife/girlfriend
ugly+rescues kitties=wife/girlfriend
ugly+complains about being ugly=no wife/girlfriend or one that is an extreme bully that sees someone that they can kick around
 

I.... don't even know where to start with this one, but you're completely off. I'm not an incel with no hobbies or friends or social life, wondering why Peak 2000s Heidi Klum doesn't just fall into my lap. You've really got the wrong end of the stick here.

15 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

"Hot or Not, currently rebranded as Chat & Date, is a rating site that allowed users to rate the attractiveness of photos submitted voluntarily by others. The site offered a matchmaking engine called 'Meet Me' and an extended profile feature called "Hotlists". "

 

Now you're talking! It does seem overly optimistic that the guy who can't get a single match on Tinder would upload himself to a "Hot Or Not" site, but I'd honestly rather get opinions/feedback from people who've never spoken to me and have no preconceived notions.

7 hours ago, Tinydance said:

Yeah I got bullied in high school for my looks and whatever reasons. Probably no real reason but just to be mean. It can definitely affect your self-esteem very negatively. It wasn't until probably my late 20's that I actually began to realise I wasn't ugly. It made such a huge difference to how I felt about myself and interacted with people.

Like I said, I generally don't think of or see myself as ugly, that's just the data I'm getting. Every interaction where I'm feeling good about how I look, or what I'm doing, yields just as much of a positive outcome as if I walked up to a woman and threw up on her shoes.

2 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Agree. As much as a group of people have offered a huge variety of help, suggestions, etc it doesn't seem to register except in  hostile condescension about "been/there done that, duh"

It is probably happening in real life where you complain and complain and get angry and frustrated with your own friends and family trying to address your woes.

I believe a lot of suggestions are meant with good intentions, however having been at this for 12ish years, unfortunately they are a lot of things I've already done or attempted. That's nobody's fault, but suggesting I need to meet more people, dress nicer or exercise regularly, they're all solid advice for someone who hasn't done those things, but I have. The only things suggested that I haven't done are; giving up my hobbies to take on new ones in an attempt to meet women, or learn to drive and buy a car.

Frustrated? Sure. Angry? No. I have of course asked my friends and explained my situation: they know me, they know what I look like, how I dress, that I'm easy to talk to and social etc. They really don't believe the words I'm saying when I tell them how I'm treated, so it's very difficult to get an effective dialogue going. It would be like if a close friend of yours asked for help about their ghost problem: fundamentally you don't believe in ghosts, so there's not going to be a great conversation coming from your side if you won't accept the premise. These are pretty people who've never had problems finding partners, even when they were 15 and didn't drive, so they genuinely don't believe me. Yes, it is incredibly frustrating.

8 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Well who has actually said you are ugly? Like, how many people have said that? Yeah I think I can be allowed to say I'm a more plus size woman because that's just my actual size. But I am definitely not ugly. 

If let's say you are ugly, which part of your face do you think? Is there anything you could correct with any cosmetic procedures or plastic surgery?

BUT what I would hate to happen is for you to get any procedures done and then realise dating is still really hard. And come to the conclusion your face actually wasn't the problem! 

 

It happens more than you'd think. Sometimes it's outright saying it, sometimes it's implied "he's alright from the neck down", sometimes people are very polite and try to dance around it.

Really, I can't point to a specific are that I would have surgically changed. I keep see 'facial symmetry' being touted as the most attractive feature but... I really see most faces as symmetrical. Maybe that's just me? Shy of a scar or disfigurement, I look at most people's faces and see them as symmetrical, so I'm really not sure where to go.

Absolutely, in an ideal world I would sit in a surgeon's chair, hand over my credit card and say "fix this", and wake up with a new face, seeing as that seems to be the major turnoff for people. That is, however, unrealistic no matter how much money you have, so I'm not going further down that line of thinking.

20 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Unfortunately this is your fixed stance and anything other than that will illicit an argument as if suggesting getting a license will somehow make your life worse and won't help your confidence.  

So with a fixed stance how is looking for tips or advice worthwhile? Or is it just a discussion on the typical manoshere rhetoric about how only rich handsome men have any chance at dating?

It's unclear how you can read minds from across the room and know for a fact what these random women think.

I personally don't think anecdotal stories about "ugly" guys living happily ever after is going to make a difference since you are completely against doing anything differently and keep reiterating your dating experiences from a decade ago as if in the present.

See, now who's coming up with snark?

Really though, pretty much all the examples I've listed have been from the past year, I only mentioned 2014 because you made the suggestion that on dating apps I use decent photos and write a bio, which is something I figured out in 2014, and have been doing ever since.

Again, I really don't understand why you're so fixed on the driving thing. I'm confident in myself and who I am, that's never been a problem, I can get about in my city without any issue, at this stage in my life I really cannot find a decent reason to pay out that amount of money for a car I would rarely use, in vague hope that the women who found me repulsive suddenly change their minds.

18 hours ago, Tinydance said:

Well I want to validate how you feel, I do, but I just generally don't have that attitude in life that you just need to give up because you've been dealt something unpleasant. All my responses have been trying to give you very specific types of advice that you could actually try and CAN be successful. I also personally said that I don't mind if someone doesn't drive so I was on your side with that one.

I understand you've already done a lot of these things and so far they haven't worked. But the thing is the difference between actually doing something and doing nothing is well, pretty obvious. When you do nothing your chances are actually zero. When you do something your chances are above zero. I think you just need to accept that yes maybe you have to work harder at dating that some people, but keep persisting.

Things don't just come easily to everyone. There is a small minority of hot people but the rest of us need to face rejection and put a lot more effort in.

Even in my case, I'm pretty but I've always been a bigger woman. I try to watch what I eat all the time. I only drink water and black coffee and plain tea. I hardly eat any junk food. Yet I'm still bigger. But I have friends who eat whatever they want and they're very slim. I mean, that's not fair yeah? I've had to accept from childhood that I'm not a thin girl. In fact when I was a little girl I wanted to be a ballerina. I then realised it just wasn't an option because of my size and I accepted that.

If you can't think of anything else you can do differently then that's OK.. Continue doing what you're doing and one day it can pay off. If you just give up you definitely won't find anyone. So I mean, what options do you really have apart from keep trying or give up? 

I don't want to seem like I'm giving up, I guess, more that I've ran out of ideas. Like I said, statistically I feel like my situation just doesn't happen, I have yet to meet another person like it: I know people on this forum say some of their friends have had similar situations, but I've yet to actually talk to any. It really does just feel bizarre, like there's something obvious that I must have missed, when I feel I'm doing everything right, or at least the bare minimum as a human to get some sort of validation.

Sure, absolutely, everyone has their own struggles and lived experiences, I've always said that. You say that being 'bigger' has presented it's own share of challenges in life that you've had to overcome, and I have to take your word for it because it's something I've not experienced. The difference I'm seeing is that you are allowed to say that you are 'bigger' and that's okay, but if I say that I'm 'ugly', I get people screaming "No, you're definitely not! It's just a complete coincidence that you're 30 and never had a girlfriend, and get called ugly! They're just two separate things!" and I really don't understand it. Like you've said, you've seen how easy it is for a lot of people you know to maintain thinner physiques, and you're just not built that way, why am I not allowed to be ugly, and must be something else?

9 hours ago, SherrySher said:

I may have missed the answer to this, but have you asked out all kinds of women? Every shape, size, race..even every level of attractiveness?

I don't know if I seen this asked anywhere, but do you ask out women who are also what you consider is "average"?

I hate to say it, but lots of times men will ask women out that aren't compatible with them at all in many different areas, including looks.

I don't want looks to be the focus here, but there is some truth to the fact that people who are around the same level of attractiveness, will get together.

Are you possibly asking women out who don't match up with you and that's why you keep getting turned down?

I would say so. When I look at the women I've liked, there really hasn't been much of a 'thread' to them; short, tall, bigger, smaller, athletic, non-athletic. I would say I have liked a healthy amount of 'average' people.

I mean, if I'm talking to someone and we really have nothing in common, I'd have to chalk it up to a loss, but the issue I bring up is that so often on the dating scene, I'm rejected before it gets to that stage. We may very well be reading the same books, or love the same music, I may cook her favourite meal without knowing it, but unfortunately that's just something that doesn't get to be explored.

14 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Now one knows what you were doing 8 years ago. Just that you use tinder now and feel that you're not having any luck.

Apologies for the confusion: 2014 was when I started online dating, prior to that (17-22) I didn't really think I needed it, but at 22 and never had any interest it seemed like a plan. I've been using dating sites ever since, not as my primary means of meeting people, just a side thing. Granted, I didn't really check it for 18 months when Covid Lockdowns were a thing, but life has been opened up to normal for over a year now.

Over the years the photos have been updated etc, every now and then one of my friends would want to pick the photos and write the bio themselves claiming they can 'fix' it.

13 hours ago, mylolita said:

I agree with most people that the right woman will come along if you keep attending events, putting yourself out there and the main thing - asking women out! It’s a numbers game, sure thing. You are more likely to get a yes if you ask 10 women out in a week than if you ask 1 woman out in a month. You just never know as well - never rule a woman out because you think she might not be interested or “out of your league” because you really never know!

 

Of course, having a license, a car, owning a home, having a decently paid profession - this all adds to your chances of finding someone easier. It would be unrealistic to say it wouldn’t. It will definitely help if you want to attract a long term partner, or future wife. 
 

Of course we hear you when you say you are not getting past hi - but I find that hard to believe every single time? They won’t entertain any kind of flirting or conversation? Just turn you straight away? 
 

I can only think maybe you hardly ask women out much, therefore rejection is much more likely, or that you maybe misinterpret women’s reactions as no interest but really they might be but they want more conversation, are maybe shy themselves or want to hear more from you? 
 

People find love all the time later in life - people can get married at 70! We all know this. I guess, we can only go off what we read and make suggestions we think might help.

 

The likelihood is, you will find someone OP, and you will look back and wonder why you ever spent time thinking about the whys and how’s! 
 

I mentioned this thread to my husband. If you want another man’s perspective who has never had trouble in this department, I thought it was curious what he said. He told me, “Tell him to get used to rejection. That’s what being a guy is about. And just ask ask ask away. The more women you ask, the more likely you are to get a date. He also said go for who you like - even if you think they might be “too good” for you. He said you might be surprised.”

 

x
 

 

I do appreciate the time you've taken to write these things, I just think we're coming at this from different life experiences: your husband is a hot guy, so his advice of "just keep asking people out, and everything will work out" may definitely have been true for him, but that's just not my experience. Nobody's 'wrong'. It's a bit like if someone's having an asthma attack, and I say "Don't be silly, there's loads of air here, I can breathe just fine!", it's technically true, but does nothing to solve the situation.

So while you may think I'm not out there socially, not asking people out, or not talking to someone because I perceive them to be out of my league, but all I can tell you is that it's not true. I do realise you don't know me and are just asking questions, but all I can do is try to show you that I am doing all I can on that front, I'm not just sitting alone wondering why a woman doesn't fall through the roof and appear in front of me.

Sure, I do agree that home ownership, driving and employed are absolute positives in the dating scene, but as I frequently mention, I get turned away before any of those questions were ever asked. Even in my teens and early 20s, where nobody drove or owned a home, I was still not seen as a catch. Even when I was 18 and renting, when most lived with their parents, it was not a positive 'boon' for me. For someone born in the 90s, owning a home on a single income, in this economy, without help from parents, it's very difficult. And it brings no guarantees: supposing I work really hard, get promoted, take all the overtime I can, save my money, to get a deposit for a house, pay twice more than I do per month currently, and for my efforts.... instead of being ugly and unwanted renting in 1 bedroom, I get to be ugly and unwanted but with a lovely kitchen backsplash?

10 hours ago, Tinydance said:

2014 was actually like 9 years ago! If you only used online dating back then, it's been a very long time since you've actually done any online dating. Also Tinder is a hookup app. There are a lot of people there looking for sex and yes women get a lot of messages. If they just want hookup then it does actually make sense why they only swipe on cute guys because it's purely physical. When I was very briefly on there I realised nobody even filled out their profile. Whereas on more serious apps where women want a relationship, they're less likely to only care about photos.

I think we were just asking you those questions because we don't know you. You'd be surprised what people write on these forums about how they can't find a relationship but then it actually turned out they weren't even really trying.

Keep in mind we aren't your friends so asking questions like: "Do you ask women out"? and "Do you try to meet people?" is simply trying to get more information.

I don't think you're being that sarcastic or anything but you kind of seem resistant to most of the advice you're getting. You seemed happy when boltandrun validated that you "can't get women". What are you actually looking for? Just empathy or actual advice and suggestions for things you can do?

I also think that just because you've already tried certain things doesn't mean you can't try them again. I was surprised when you kept talking about Tinder but then revealed you used it in 2014. That was like close to a decade ago!

Yes, have been using online dating sites since 2014, with zero matches. Okay, I have to take 18 months off for Covid, but you get the idea. I'm very selective in photos that I use, try to show a range of interests, all that jazz. I've been through them all: OKcupid, Bumble, Match, PlentyOfFish, it's have been of no use. I mean, I've never been against the concept of a hookup, so long as nobody's being deceived and everyone's consenting. It's not something I'm looking for, but at a certain point I feel there would be some validation in being seen as attractive.

I do understand that you're just trying to get information, but I really thought I'd addressed all of this several times now, and yet I still get people coming in with "Hmm, maybe you should try talking to them?", and as much as I appreciate they're trying to be helpful, from this side it feels like they never read my initial post.

Sure, I did appreciate BoltAndRun's reply, because at the moment they seem to be the only one that seems to be believing the words that I'm saying. When I'm saying that women find me unattractive from a distance, knowing nothing about me, and people on this forum respond with "Well obviously it's because you don't drive!", there seems a real disconnect between the things I'm saying and the responses I'm getting. I guess my reason being here is to be believed, because this is my experience, and for the most part it's feeling like people don't. And I get it, they've lived lives that they have had relationships since they were 18, they don't believe that I can't, all I'm trying to do is get my side out there.

5 hours ago, mylolita said:

I have kind of been on the other side of this in a weird way, and faces rejection weekly as part of my job! I was a lap dancer from 18-21 and plenty of guys wouldn’t want a dance. It was my job to entice them. You just brush it off. I believe all social interaction, especially asking the opposite sex out, just gets easier and better with practice. Almost like the only cure for it is on the field, real time, out there! That’s just my personal experience. You get better and more confident and comfortable the more social situations you throw yourself into. Yes it depends on your personality but anyone and everyone benefits from sheer practice of anything, social I think is included in this! 

Again, I have plenty of social interaction, I'm out 3-5 times a week conversing with complete strangers, or in dance class where I know what I'm doing. It's not practice socialising that I lack, I'm very comfortable in these situations.

5 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Get off free and hookup apps altogether. Get on some quality and paid apps. Leave snark and sarcasm off a profile. It sounds bitter or arrogant. Simply have a few good pics (not selfies or gym pics) and a well written, inviting profile detailing your basics (area, age, profession, etc.) and highlighting some of your interests. People are offering sound advice but debating and sarcasm comes across as being embittered, so hopefully that's not what women are picking up on. Is there an objection to getting a license? Not having a car in a metro area is common/fine but no license at 30 sort of stands out and it will be an issue.

You seem really annoyed that I use sarcasm and humour in my replies, that is because that while the majority of people seem to be suggesting things they think may be helpful, others come out with things such as "Have you tried asking them out?", like I'm sitting here wondering why I didn't think of that. I really made every effort to describe my situation to highlight that I'm engaged in many social activities that revolve around meeting new people, yet I still get messages such as "Have you tried meeting new people?"

Your most recent suggestion is that I... upload a few decent pics and a bio describing my hobbies, that's literally what I did in 2014. THAT'S why I'm coming across as sarcastic to you. My problem is not that I don't understand how online dating works.

You have asserted that everyone will assume I can drive because I'm 30, but also that me not driving is the reason I can't get a date: which makes no sense because according to you, they will naturally assume I can. Your two statements contradict each other. Like I said, if I was finding that it was becoming an issue as people got to know me, I'd have to concede the point, but seeing as I can't get past "hello", my transportation requirements are at the back of the line.

The next time I'm in a club and a woman points to me and mouths to her friend "Eww, no!", I must realise that she's really saying "I ain't ridin' his stick until I know he can drive stick, Becky!" because apparently that's my issue.

5 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

I chuckled lol

Just saying it would maybe be advantageus even in dating. Again, dont go to Tinder, its clearly detrimental for you.

Also, in fairness, I saw some bios that say "No car or gym pics". Because apparently lots of guys use those and some see it as "bragging". 

 

This may be a generational thing, I don't know your age, but if you're 22 and looking to date people of a similar age, Tinder really is the most popular app, and that was me. Even though the years have passed and my dating age has skewed older, it is still the 'default' for my generation looking to date. That's not to say it's the only site I've ever used, I've been through them all: eharmony, OKcupid, Bumble, Match, you name it, it is the same result.

And it's true, I do see car pics as fairly douchey, same with gym pics. I have a couple pics of me playing sport, as I think it shows that I have outdoor hobbies and general fitness, but I would never throw up a gym mirror selfie. So, from my profile, there would be no indication as to weather I drive or not, unless I make the un-subtle move of putting "enjoys driving to the coast" in my list of hobbies, just to shout to the world "Hello ladies, I am mobile!"

5 hours ago, Batya33 said:

OP - do that.  Find a way to show up with reasonable confidence and tell the woman you are interested in you'd like to take her out on a date - tell her with confidence.  Tell her assuming that she will say yes or that if she says no it's no reflection on you, your looks, your whatever. 

Because if  you show up with approachable body language, positive energy AND with a quiet confidence you will know and she will know that even if you're not a match you respect yourself.  And then she might want to introduce you to a friend you might click with.  That's how it works IMO.

I mean, you can only take my word for this, but honestly I do just that. Weather it's dancing, or the gym, or social activities, it's always something that I'm good at, therefore have no issues with confidence etc. My body language is fine, I have absolutely no problems striking conversation with strangers, and do so on an almost daily basis. That may have been how it worked for you, and I'm happy to take your word on that, but I need you to take my word on this as my lived experience.

4 hours ago, boltnrun said:

I'm sure you're getting frustrated. People aren't "getting it". They keep saying, tell women this or that. Use that approach! You need to have a license and have a car! But what I see you saying is, you're not even getting to the point where jobs or cars or finances are being discussed. You aren't getting past a swipe or a "hello".

And to me that is key. Why you're not getting too much past "hello".

Thank you, you seem to be the only one getting this at the moment.

At this point, it does seem that all points lead to the hypothesis that I'm ugly. Really, if I can't get a date, get turned down before I've even opened my mouth, or just from photos, and get called ugly, at what point do we stop pointing to the magic power of self belief and accept something as a fact, or at least a consensus majority?

44 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Because at 30, they assume you have a driver's license, even if owning a car is unnecessary living in the city center.

Is there a reason you won't/can't at least get a driver's license? Women may assume you have financial, alcohol or legal issues if you can't get a license.

It will come up if you ask women out and they have to chauffeur you around. That's a huge turn off. You can't even rent a car without a license, even a weekend trip would fall on her shoulders..

Other than that you claim your appearance, apt, location, profession, etc. is fine, so what exactly is the real issue?

So it's something everyone assumes I have, yet also the reason they won't date me, even though I don't get the chance to correct them?

I'm afraid I don't follow.

43 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

I think its an OK point about having a car. Because, believe it or not, it helps. I live in a small city. My job is remote mostly and until recently didnt see the need to have a drivers license and have a car. I did pass my driverse license exam and in the process of buying a car. Cars in general are a big strain on a budget sometimes, its like having one more family member. Especially at todays gas prices. Not to mention fixes if needed, technical check ups and rest. Drivers plates alone are 200+ dollars yearly here.

But, in terms of dating that actually gets you an additional note. You show that you can handle all that financially and that you have mobility. She wants you to drive her home instead of spending money on cab? No problem, you got her covered. You want to go to weekend getaway? No problem, reserve some nice rural place, hope in car and go. Its an advantage. I was watching some youtube video where a girl was asking other girls about dating. One straight up said that she hooked up with her current boyfriend because he has a car. I am not saying OP should aim at that kind of girls, just that car is definitely advantage even in dating. Even in OPs famous standard known as "Tinder", I once read a bio that says "If you dont have a car swipe left". So, its an OK point. Dont think that is why OP cant find a relationship, just that car would be advantage.

I get it, in a long term situation it's absolutely a positive, even a necessity when you get to moving house, buying furniture, kids etc. At this stage in my life, when I'm only responsible for myself, and a week's food shop can fit into a backpack, I really have had no need to pay hundreds a month to... be sober at parties. I'm not against driving, it's just not been something I need to do at this point.

So you're saying I should re-start Tinder dating, but in the 'About Me' section, I should put: 5 door, low mileage, no previous owners?

5 hours ago, mylolita said:

Hey Mysterious!

 

Just throwing suggestions out here now like it‘s the Wild West!

 

Maybe your perception of what is a “No” and closed door from a woman might be off? I say this because when flirting and getting a date it is a back and forth between the species, shall we say! 
 

For example, I’m 32, I’ve been with my husband for 15 years, we have 3 kids together. I met him when I was 18 and he was 27. I’d never had a boyfriend or even kissed anyone! I worked during college on a night at a cocktail bar. As soon as I saw him, honestly, lightening struck. But! This is how his chatting up of me roughly went (he was, drunk in some way as well by the way).

 

Him: “Hey! I love your hair.”

 

Me: “Thanks! Thank you. What can I get you?” 
 

Him: “No… I really like your hair. You‘re beautiful.”

 

Me: I don’t know what to do with myself. I ask him again what he wants. He says rum and Coke.

 

He spends the rest of the night at the other end of the bar only ordering drinks with me and staring at me the whole time. I keep going back into the store room to escape, it’s intense. I’m really attracted to him but I don’t know what to do. I even say to a friend working behind the bar, “Oh my God! You seen that blonde guy? He won’t stop staring!”

 

He comes up again, 5th time.

 

Him: “I’d love to get a drink with you. Do you have Facebook? Can I have your Facebook?”

 

Me: “I don’t have Facebook! I have MySpace! Facebook is for old people 😉”

 

Him: Laughing. “Okay okay, what’s your name? What’s your MySpace? Let me take you out.”

 

We chatted a bit more. He was a drummer in a band. Some jokes flew, more flirting, then I eventually gave him my name and MySpace instead of phone number. When I got home there was this message waiting for me full of romance and again asking for a date.

 

I am curious, at what point in that conversation might you have given up? The crazy thing is I was MAD about him as soon as I laid eyes on him! But, it is a woman’s prerogative to not normally throw herself straight away at a guy and shout from the hills yes!

 

Would you have turned around when I just replied thanks? Or went back into the store room? Would you have stayed till the lights went up? What I am trying to work out is, my husband saw me and was blown over. He said he even knew he wanted to marry me. I know that sounds insanely corny but, I wasn’t just another girl for a hook up, and he had been having plenty plus near that time had also a regular friend with benefits. 
 

There is naturally a back and forth between men and women like that which, if you are maybe easily deterred or very polite, you can actually miss the natural chase and tease chatting someone up involves!

 

x

 

I'm polite, but I'm not oblivious to social cues. What I'm reading from that story is: you found an attractive man looking at you, he's eyeing you up all night, he's hot and in a band, you give him your Myspace, now you're married. That's great, I'm right behind that.

Now to flip it, what if you weren't bowled over by him, what if he looked and sounded like Gilbert Gotfried? Would his persistence be 'cute' and 'charming', or would he be just a creep who harassed you that night?

I'm not saying I'm giving up easy at every interaction, but you can tell when someone's into you, and when someone's clearly being not interested in the conversation.

3 hours ago, Tinydance said:

OK so let's just say really hypothetically if you're unattractive in the face (not body though). You obviously want to find a girlfriend. So I think you need some kind of new plan. Maybe trying to go for women who aren't attractive themselves? They might be happy you asked them out because they don't really get attention from guys. 

At the end of the day I don't think looks are really number one and you just need to find a woman you get along really well with and you enjoy being with each other. Women want to find someone too, even unattractive women. I'm not saying you should force yourself to be with someone you don't like but maybe try to give as many women a chance as possible.

I mean, in my history I wouldn't say I have a particular 'type' of woman that I look for, all the people that I have liked have been very different. Some tall, short, fat, thin, some of them none of my friends could figure out why I liked them. I assure you, I'm not out only looking for models.

3 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

You might consider toning down the snark, it's not a good look to imply that everyone else who's a loser gets all the women.

Again, fitness is good, but you claim it's other things which of course can be remedied by a physical evaluation of whatever it is. This includes better dentition, better skin, better facial hair, improvement of any facial structural abnormalities, an optician if you need corrective lenses, a good barber and even getting some stuff done like a manicure or salon treatments for a more refined look.

It's not all about the build. It's not like the 70s movie "Saturday Night Fever", where it's clubs and dancing and  flexing and picking up women .

Not driving/owning a car is a huge red flag for women. So rather than sarcasm and imagined defects, try to work on the real issues.

Sure, I'm aware of a lot of things that can be improved. I'm clean shaven, my skin is decent, haircut is fine, I wear corrective lenses. I really have gone through this to try to improve anything I can.

Have addressed the driving thing below, rather than typing it twice.

3 hours ago, mylolita said:

I actually agree with Wiseman here - a 30 year old male who can’t drive? It is a little odd. And also, most women around this age are looking to settle. That means, a man having a stable, decently paid profession, owning their own home ideally and driving, owning a car.

 

I realise you are saying you don’t even get to the discussing life and what you do stage with women but to nit pick, these things are generally important to women, especially women 30 plus. I don’t want to say Y’know, all women want a millionaire but, just having the basics together makes a massive difference. Still being in full time study at this age might put women who want serious commitment off as well, I realise this will be a fantastic profession once you are finished but sometimes women don’t want a work in progress. It’s quite a harsh and judgemental world out there in the dating game sometimes. I don’t want to sound bleak! These are things that run through a lot of women’s minds is all I am saying Mysterious.

 

x

I would disagree at this point. If I were talking to women and they found my lack of driver's license to be an issue, I'd have to agree with you, but I'll be honest it's not something that gets asked of me. Like I said, if women want nothing to do with you in the first place, they're not going to waste time asking how many kids you want, what car you drive and what your mortgage rates are. That's the boat I find myself in.

As for me not driving, it's surprisingly common in the UK if you live in a big city. My work & friends are all close by, if I go out I'll often have a drink, parking is a nightmare, in fact the local government has been making efforts over the last 15 years to pedestrianise the whole city centre. At a certain point it's more hassle than it's worth for me; usually the people with cars are ones who's job requires it, or they have a family they need to transport. I owned a motorbike as a youth because I needed transport, but since coming here I found I never really used it.

6 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Okay. Have you had a look at the short video I shared? It talks about owning your face. The dude had done tons of surgery to his face due to some health condition, and yet he didn't let this affect how much people are attracted to him. He gives solutions on what to do about it.

Sorry bud, I haven't really had time yet, but do fully intend to! It sounds interesting.

6 hours ago, boltnrun said:

So does the fact that you can't explain why tens of thousands of physically unattractive men are able to find girlfriends and wives support your hypothesis that you haven't had a relationship because you're allegedly ugly? Or does it negate it?

You kind of skimmed over the question. I think it's worth some serious consideration. If those men are "ugly" yet have been able to find wives and girlfriends there must be something else those women found attractive. I wonder what that could be? 

And no, they are not all extremely wealthy. I know that's a popular belief.

Again, I really can't answer for how every other male on Planet Earth, including boil covered dwarves and toothless smack addicts, can find themselves partners and I am unable to. Really, you've stumped me, I have no answer for that. All I can do is answer from the experiences I have, in which looks seems to be a definite roadblock. Other than hitting up a social club for the visually impaired, I'm sort of running out of ideas.

Have I answered your question to your satisfaction?

5 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

And honestly, the group of people you hang out with could be part of the problem. That lady has crossed a line and was beyond rude. I would have called her out on her behaviour and cut her out of my life.

The fact you stay around people who keep hinting at you being ugly speaks volume of who you even are. Your confidence is not as high as you think it is.

I mean, why? She wasn't saying it to me, I can't have her for her opinions. We're not especially close friends, but through good friends we've had enough interactions throughout the years. It does serve as a good example that while everyone can be all "Oh don't worry, there's nothing wrong with you!" when asked directly, you never know what's said once you leave the room.

5 hours ago, mylolita said:

What’s your set up? I mean, if I can ask, do you own your own home? Have a car? Have a steady job or profession? 
 

If I were to randomly have a guess at what might not be snagging a woman is… maybe you are potentially being a bit too polite? When a guy goes for a girl, even when she says no (and, he must ask normally) successful guys often don’t accept no straight away, turn on their heels and leave. Ever seen the rom coms? It’s almost like, in a sweet and cheeky way, they chip away for a bit. I realise this could be construed as me glorifying some kind of sexual harassment - if she means no it will be obviously a no but, sometimes a little flirting back and forth and c’mon give me one chance let me take you out… can be how it is for most guys! 
 

My Grandad pursued my Grandma for 4 months! He asked her at every dance, for a dance! She gave in. Without his cheeky persistence, I would never have been born!

 

Anyway… I think women can also tell if you are just “so so” about them. When was the last time you were bowled over and knocked off your feet by a woman? It’s hard to take the rejection and be casual about it when you felt like you were looking at the woman of your dreams right there! 
 

I mean, reject all these small theories if they seem way off. I am not advocating pestering women but just, sometimes getting a date takes a bit of nudging and persuasion. There are so many unspoken social cues and reactions. I think flirting and attraction are the most socially nuanced interactions we experience.

 

x

Hey there! As I laid out in my initial post; I'm renting, been fully employed since I was 18. I've had to re-train over Covid, I'm now on the path to a degree in mechanical engineering. I do not drive.

Thing is, none of those things are remotely obvious. So when I'm in a bar or social situation, even before asking me any of those things, I get shut down. I could be a doctor with a big home and a 12" dong, and they'd never know it.

I would err on the side of caution with the not taking "no" for an answer. I'm aware it's worked for some people, but honestly just hounding a woman who's got no interest in me just sounds like repeatedly hitting my head against the same closed door in hope that I break it down. Having seen the other side of it: a good female friend of mine has a regular group of guys that will message her daily, in hope that she'll go out with them, it just comes off as desperate. I'm not against flirting, and I do think I have a good sense of humour.

5 hours ago, moodindigo91 said:

Random quotes I know, but a broad chest and shoulders = GOOD! 

You do seem to have a lot going for you tbh. You seem pretty intelligent, social, and fit. I agree that a good dentist, hair stylist, even a dude who works at J.Crew with an eye for fashion could probably help you out with some changes in your physical appearance that might help you at least get in the door. 

I also think you should think about how to approach women, and how you would take it from a first date to beyond that with a woman you like. It seems to me like you've been trying hard to meet women and date, but it also seems to me like you've never liked a woman enough to pursue anything serious with her. 

Besides all the stuff I've said already, I think you should cast your net wider, and look for compatible women in different places. Join a more serious dating app than Tinder. Have friends set you up (sorry if this has been suggested already or if you've already tried this). 

I have over the years asked friends to set me up, female friends love to play matchmaker, however when they ask their single friends, so far they have said 'no' before even meeting me.

As for a wider net, I mean, I live in a big city with thousands, I really didn't think I had to move beyond that to find someone who thinks I'm vaguely ok. That's not to say I'm against a commute, just seems much harder to wrangle.

5 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Right that's why she was single. Because she makes ugly rude comments whether she meant it or not.

No, she was there with her partner.

1 hour ago, Tinydance said:

The thing is women don't really hit on guys in my experience. Whether it be for a hookup or relationship. Usually they wait for guys to come to them. I know guys get put in an awkward situation because they're the ones expected to make the moves. But when you're always making a move, you have a higher chance of getting rejected. That's actually normal though. I've been rejected my fair share too and so have all my friends who actually tried.

Do you have many close female friends? Like, do you hang out with them? Maybe you could go to their events and meet their female friends and things like that. I think the best approach that might work in dating is getting to know a woman a bit first and then asking her out.

I mean, you can still try cold approaching but just in my opinion it doesn't work as well. For example, let's just say I was in a cafe and some guy starting hitting on me. Because he was a complete stranger that I know literally nothing about, I'm not sure that I'd be interested. Whereas if it was a friend of a friend that I got to know first and not just a random, I would be more inclined to go out with him.

I still also think that often when people get together, they actually have a connection first. Like, they're not necessarily on the hunt for a partner but they just meet someone at work/university/church/hobbies, etc. and they begin interacting with that person and realise they actually click really well. That's usually how I met most of my partners. 

I know you might want to bring it back to your looks again, but it may also be that you just haven't met women you really connected with. Sometimes that does happen. That's not to say it'll never happen for you.

I'm absolutely not expecting women to hit on me, don't worry. I would say of my close friends, about half are women. I've been to events they have hosted and met their friends, that's no problem. To be fair, a lot of the time their friends are partnered up, that's nobody's fault. A few times I've asked if they could set me up with someone, and to their credit they have tried; the last time was a couple of years ago she had a friend that was looking to date and didn't know me, she had showed a semi interest when my friend described me, but lost interest once she showed her photos. You ask why I bring things back to my looks, I would say it seems to be the biggest hurdle.

Again, between my hobbies, meeting new women and getting to know them is not a problem, I've made some great friends that way, but that's all it's going to be.