Salary Negotiation

[finewhine]

Hi, all. I hope I'm not jinxing myself by asking about this so well in advance of an actual offer (just went on a couple interviews is all), but I was wondering the proper way to negotiate a salary.

 

I've tried looking this up, but the articles just tell you to pause and say, "Is that the best you can do?" That sounds REALLY STUPID. What are you supposed to say, really? Can someone walk me though this, please?

[caro33]

Sorry finewhine I'm really not stalking you, but I was cruising the forum and here you are I don't think there's a formula for this unfortunately.

 

I was always told the following:

 

1) Never discuss price until the very end, when the actual offer is there. Don't negotiate with anyone but the company itself - don't get too sucked into hardcore discussions about salary with recruitment consultants or even the HR people from the firm. Go with the potential boss as much as possible - they know how to pick someone of value to them and what they'll pay.

 

2) Be prepared to quote your price if they ask. Only ever quote what you are looking for as a range, with the upper end something to reasonably aspire to and the lower end something you can live with and not hate yourself for accepting.

 

3) If they say something you don't like, use the "is that the best you can do". Why not add extras like "I believe I am worth more than you are suggesting" or "the market is currently paying more than this". But be prepared to put your money where your mouth is to back statements up. If there is a huge hike from your last job's price and the new people know it, be prepared to argue why you are worth more now, for this job.

 

4) If they still won't come to the party on a level that you would prefer within the range, then ask that there is a 6 month (or whatever) review, where if you perform in an acceptable fashion (note, not superhero but adequate) you get the raise. Plot a path for salary increase.

 

5) As part of all this, be clear on the other elements you can tweak to make a package look better to you, like hours, promotions, car, health care, cell phone bills paid, travel allowance, etc. Also be prepared to negotiate a lower base salary for a higher "at risk" component like a bonus. If you can get some sort of confidence that a fair chunk of bonus will be paid (ie 60%) on "fair and reasonable" performance, it might be worth it. But who knows what their appetite for paying a bonus will actually be when it comes down to it.

 

6) In all of this don't play games. Be honest at all times about what you will and will not accept. Be strong also, exude a confidence about your worth. You need to show them you know that your value is high for them to believe it. Even if you are nervous, be cool in your demeanor. That's the only bluff I would make - act like this is just one of several suitors and you are by no means desperate (but don't make stuff up you can't support).

 

What I've stated above might be self-evident, sorry if it comes accross as patronising at all and you've got this stuff covered. If you find the formula feel free to let me know!

 

And good luck!

[finewhine]

Caro, stalk me all you want. You're always so darn helpful!

 

I think all this advice is very sound, and I am hoping to be able to implement it soon!

[caro33]

Caro, stalk me all you want. You're always so darn helpful!

 

I think all this advice is very sound, and I am hoping to be able to implement it soon!

 

Oh shucks, thanks .

 

Well I am sending out positive waves to you, hope it's all you want.

 

BTW I don't think it's ever too early to get your head around what you're worth and do some market research - I reckon this is all about "prepare, prepare, prepare" because you'll use the same lines on the next employer, and the one after that.

 

Oh, and my own job seeking experience is if you're going to stumble with nerves watch the hard words: when I am in interviews at the pointy end I try and get smartypants and say "remuneration" for some dumb reason. Ah, the coolness of "nerumneration, err renumeration, heh...mmmm...salary" . I'm sure you will not suffer this though

[melrich]

BTW I don't think it's ever too early to get your head around what you're worth and do some market research

 

That's the key. Employment is very sophisticated nowadays and employers have access to all sorts of information that tells them what they should be paying. You need to know that too. Not to the last dollar but you should be aware of the package range for your particular skill set in a particular industry. When an offer is made you can compare how that tallies with your own research. If you feel it is not appropriate don't simply ask for more, tell them why you are asking for more and why you think they should pay it.

 

I agree with Caro33 re the packaging but remember your base/bonus component is the key as most packaged benefits tend to stay static in the longer term and if you start with a low base/bonus component it can be hard to catch that up.

 

PS it is renumeration, not remuneration.

[caro33]

PS it is renumeration, not remuneration.

 

Sorry melrich, it's not. I got insecure and double checked before I posted. I tried desperately not to respond right now, but my innate smartypantsness came over me. Just don't ask me to say it out loud .

[melrich]

Sorry melrich, it's not. I got insecure and double checked before I posted.

 

Ah you are quite right.

[finewhine]

OK Melrich, I have a question for you, then. I am in the publishing industry, whose salaries vary vastly by company. I have a rough idea of what I'm worth, but I know I can make top dollar at a series of large corporations. If I am applying at a smaller company, would it behoove me to assume I should command the same amount there as I would at one of the larger places?

[caro33]

I'm not melrich obviously but I would say that what you suggest is quite likely. I will assume smaller publishing houses have the same issues as smaller businesses in my area. When I joined a small consulting company in my sector I was expected to take a lower salary than one of the "Big 5" firms, but with a higher "at risk" component; ie the bonus.

 

But the firm was also hungry for people like me, and I found my salary and bonus were increased every six months as they saw me performing. I never made this arrangement with them, so it was them trying to approximate market rates so I didn't leave. It never got to the Big 5 level, but it got close.

[finewhine]

Thanks Caro. I see what you're getting at. In other words, I should discuss all of the bonuses, reviews, etc. if/when I get an offer. Oy, I was an English major!

[caro33]

Actually sorry finewhine, my last post was backward and I struggle to make sense of it myself. You got the picture though.

 

I actually meant that you should probably expect that a smaller firm will want to pay you less than a larger one because they have less cash. So in my case, they said "okay we can't afford what you are asking as base pay, but maybe we can agree a lower base pay and a high bonus, so it's the same thing in the end". Well this is never really the same thing in the end, because companies will find reasons not to pay 100% of bonuses, but it does make a lower wage look better if it's a job you want.

[finewhine]

Ah, I got it.

 

Also, Caro, if you're still there, have you ever asked them to put it in writing? Like, would a smaller company flip out if they were asked to do something like this?

[caro33]

Well it depends what you mean.

 

I know that for me it's never a real offer until it's in writing, with the package etc attached as a schedule. I will only quit the previous job etc when that has happened and I have signed the contract. But by then it's too late if it's negotiation you are after.

 

If you mean for them to put it in writing so you can then negotiate, I have to say I have not encountered this. I don't know if there are different practices elsewhere, but my own experience has been that one haggles price in person, comes to some landing, and then the potential employee waits with baited breath for that contract to come through.

 

I might have missed your point?

 

I do think that with anything like this that smaller firms are more precious about everything. At one end of the preciousness spectrum are the Mom-and-Pop-style businesses that like to run on loyalties and trust bonds. They are more likely to take some things personally (as a lack of faith) than a larger firm. The larger firms are more likely to be more nonchalant because they have seen it all already and don't have personal assets invested. They also have teams of HR people to tend to your request, whereas the smaller player might feel resentment that they have to do this and you are not complying with the feelgood spirit of the process that they are trying to nurture.

 

You can see I've had some real attitude from smaller players hey .

[finewhine]

Well, the point is, I'm trying to stall for time. The offer I haven't yet received (and for all I know I may not receive) would happen before one or both of the two other interviews I have scheduled later this week. I talked to the career advisor from my grad school (bless her patient soul) and she told me that I have enough wiggle-room, time-wise, to go on these other interviews even if I receive an offer from the first interview as long as I get the offer in writing.

 

Now, mind you, I was completely impressed by the first company I interviewed with. The people I would be working with were wonderful, the job description fits my skill set and my interests, and the company seems like a growth-oriented organization with room for advancement, raises, a move to another city, etc. It's a small firm (40+ employees) that's very successful. Problem: it's a b**** of a commute, and the salary is about the same as the ones I would get from the other companies closer to my home and accessible by public transportation.

 

Job #2 is with a faceless, giant corporation. This is the cash cow - with my MA, I could earn about 3-5k more than I would with any other company in my industry. One of my good friends has worked there for several years and she likes it pretty well. The work is OK. The biggest plus is the cash AND the potential for relocation/growth/advancement. I could be making excellent money in five years and move if I want to.

 

Job #3 is what I consider glamorous. It's not even in my field! It's a communications/public programs job with a well-funded non-profit organization. To my understanding (which is hazy at best), I would make about the same amount of money as I would at the first job. I have NO idea about growth, advancement, and pay raises, but I have incredible admiration for the mission of the organization. Plus, for someone like me, the perks are tremendous. I would make contacts with people in the arts sector of the city that I live in, plan lectures, go to functions with the culture crowd - in short, all the stuff I get off on (I used to have a job with another major arts nonprofit and I adored it). This job seems like - fun? But I don't know where it would lead me. The work involved is a perfect match with my skillset and interests, but I hope I'm not shooting myself in the foot if I decide to pursue a publishing job when the next stage of my career rolls around in 2-4 years.

 

So, Caro, I'm trying to stall for time. There's a chance I won't receive an offer from the first job. I could love either of the jobs I haven't interviewed for. I could hate either of them. I could receive three offers or none. It's so befuddling! But! I know for a fact I want to go on the two remaining interviews even if I do receive an offer because I want to give the next two to four years of my life as careful consideration as I can muster. If I have options, I'll weigh them.

 

Hence the question about the smaller players. They're not tiny, just small.

[caro33]

How exciting!

 

I think that if you ask for an offer in writing it is perfectly reasonable to let them know that you have other matters to consider, and perhaps you say that you will get back to them in a week. Or two. Two might be pushing it, but you could make something up about being interstate or something.

 

I think that as long as you are respectful in what you ask for re time, and that you adhere to it, that should be fine, offer or no offer.

[finewhine]

Two might indeed be pushing it

 

IF I get an offer (big if!!!) I am going to ask them to put it in writing so I can carefully look it over and that I will get back to them when I have had a chance to consider it.

 

It's funny, I've never ever in my life felt like I had options career-wise. It's pretty scary to have options! Exciting, too, but scary. Anyway, yeah, that's definitely contributing to my anxiety about this - I feel like, "Who am I to feel like I am worth the wait?" It's WEIRD!!!

[caro33]

Two might indeed be pushing it

 

IF I get an offer (big if!!!) I am going to ask them to put it in writing so I can carefully look it over and that I will get back to them when I have had a chance to consider it.

 

It's funny, I've never ever in my life felt like I had options career-wise. It's pretty scary to have options! Exciting, too, but scary. Anyway, yeah, that's definitely contributing to my anxiety about this - I feel like, "Who am I to feel like I am worth the wait?" It's WEIRD!!!

 

 

Sounds fair enough re your plan.

 

It is scary to have options, but oh so liberating! Well done! And best of luck for all the options coming through!

[melrich]

Sorry finewhine I have not responded back to you on that specific question. I think Caro covered pretty well what I'd have said.

 

Re. asking for the offer in writing I think that is fine and prudent. Most employers understand that accepting a job is a big decision and whilst they will be anxious for your answer they will respect that you need reasonable time and the specific information to respond.

 

You should always remember that it is also a big process for an employer. It costs a lot of money to recruit someone nowadays and once they have been through what is for them also a long process of recruitment and selected a person, they generally do not give up on that decision all things being reasonable.

 

2 or 3 days consideration once you have the written details of the offer should be no problem.