age-old question

[charley]

This is so true Charley. Just don't give the opposite sex too much insight on our psychy.

 

What I described of myself is the common psychy of men in our 30s, 40s, and older, I think. i.e. - a man with some maturity.

 

I think the younger guys in their 20s do to much of their thinking with their little head, which is why they keep insisting that attraction invalidates or ruins a friendship. No doubt attraction does ruin or prevent a friendship with a woman if your little head is in charge and calling the shots.

 

When a guy gets old enough, his big head becomes the senior partner and starts running things. The points of view I've expressed about my friendships with women are about myself in my 30s. I think my current point of view started to develope when I was about 25 or 26, but didn't fully mature until I was about 33 or 34.

 

Before age 25, attraction did always prevent me from being friends with any women I was attracted to because my little head was in charge, and he's stupid and not very charming. He knows what he wants, and that's all he knows.

 

My little head continued to sometimes ruin my female friendships until I was about age 32 or 33. Then I matured and wised up. Probably due to more life experiences and less testosterone. I'm much nicer now that my big head is in charge. I no longer ruin my friendships with women. It doesn't matter if I'm attracted to her or not, I'm not going to let it ruin our friendship. The thing I learned most recently was how to not let it ruin our friendship when SHE was attracted and I wasn't. I've gotten good at dealing with that too now. So now I can maintain and keep my female friends regardless of attraction issues, or lack of attraction issues. Attraction no longer matters with regard to friends.

 

The other thing I've also learned more recently is that when there is mutual attraction and she's available, to jump on the opportunity and ask her out because that's OK. Also, if I wait to long, some other guy will get her. It's OK to ask out a female friend if the attraction is mutual and she's single and available.

[GQstatus]

From a very young age I always had a lot of guy friends, and a lot of girl friends. Once I hit high school, those "friendships" i had with females, slowly diminished, because I was trying to sleep with all of them Once OUT of high school, things change, you mature and don't ALWAYS think with "your other head".

 

I have a GREAT friendship with my first "love" from when I was 14. 9 years later. I could never even imagine us being together again, neither could she. And I have another close female friend, who I was attracted to when we first met, but quickly realized we'd never work. We've been PLATONIC friends for a good 4 years now.

 

Then there's my "acquaintances" that seem to think we are "friends", but honestly, I undress them with my eyes everything we hang out. These are girls that disappear when I'm in a relationship because I know I wouldn't be, be honest with my gf saying "Oh it's ok, we're just friends".

 

And I agree, most of them time, women think their guy friends are just that, friends. But they fail to realize, a lot of them are at home right now, fantasizing about them

 

I wish I had more male friends, cuz it gets boring listening to females talk about about the same things overrrrrr and over again. I think having too many female friends isn't necessarily good for you.

[pianoguy]

Charley, you're brilliant. The "little head"- that's hilarious.

 

As one of the aforementioned men in the 25 and under category... I will say that I have difficulty maintaining friendships with guys I find attractive, and as a result I prefer ugly guys as platonic friends. In high school I took this to an extreme. Eventually of course I decided one of my platonic friends was hot, and it almost destroyed our friendship. It certainly destroyed me for a while.

 

But I certainly wouldn't say its impossible to do. I'm getting better at it as I go along. It's encouraging to know that these things get easier further along.

[pianoguy]

Did you ever see the episode of Seinfeld where Jerry's little and big heads play chess? Reminds me a lot of this discussion.

[charley]

Good for you. You matured faster than I did. I think you also matured faster than most other men. I wasn't mature until my early 30s, like maybe 32 or 33. I think I'm rather more typical of men than your are. I really don't think most men evolve to what you describe until they are at least 30 to 35. I base that not only on myself, but also based on what I see of my men friends in their 20s vs. 30s and 40s.

[charley]

Some of my women friends are very good looking, others are OK looking, some are very homely or overweight. I don't care about looks with regard to being friends. It doesn't matter at all.

 

For example, when I'm attracted to one of my women friends, I remember that it's my problem, not hers. I don't make it her problem. However, if it's a mutual attraction between friends, well then that's perfect GF material. What is better than being mutually attracted to a good friend? Nothing. It's the best.

 

One of my former 2 GFs was my best friend. Being attracted to my best friend, and her to me, was what I think romantic love is supposed to be.

 

I mean, liking a woman, really liking her as a friend or best friend, plus being sexually attracted to her, is either love, or what makes me fall in love.

 

So for me, friendship and sexual attraction are two separate things and separate issues. However, when both exist with the same person and are combined and mutual, then I'm in love, or falling in love.

 

For me personally: Liking her as a friend + sexual attraction = falling in love

[Aurian]

Sounds good to me. Why wouldn't you want your SO to be a great or best friend as well? Okay, so I'm sure he'd rather skip the girly gossip stuff, but you two should be close, share things in life and enjoy each others' company outside of the bedroom

 

As for whether guys and girls can be friends, I say yes. My hobbies are more "boyish" than girlie, so I get along with guys more easily than with women.

[charley]

Did you ever see the episode of Seinfeld where Jerry's little and big heads play chess? Reminds me a lot of this discussion.

 

Hey that's real life. You're talking about a split personality, sort of. Nice guys are always having internal discussions like that (and sometimes conflicts) because our little head just wants !@#$, but out big head wants to treat her nice. Sometimes that's a conflict, sometimes not.

 

Some men are simple, and only have the little head for a brain. Those guys don't feel conflicted. Life is simpler for them.

 

Some men are more complicated and have both the little and big heads arguing much of the time. However, when a guy finds a woman who he likes as a friend and he is sexually attracted to, then the two heads are in unanimous agreement and he falls for her big time. At least that's how it is for me.

 

Except I'm slightly more complicated than that. My personality with women is split 3 ways.

 

I've got my logical mind that's voting if it can work or not (taking into account how close we live to each other, our lifestyles, and all those realistic things; my heart that decides if I like or love her; and my little head that just decides if I want to !@#$ her.

 

Now if all 3 are in agreement, then I'm unanimously wanting her BADLY and in love. However, a 2 out of 3 majority is good enough, especially if the feelings and the attraction are in agreement because then logic can be overruled by love and lust.

 

Maybe I just need a professional therapist? Nah, all I need is a lady friend (or best friend) who I'm mutally attracted with and we share adequate compatibility in our lifestyles and circumstances. Then all 3 voices in my head can be happy. However, at this point in my life, I'd settle for a 2 out of 3 majority.

[charley]

Sounds good to me. Why wouldn't you want your SO to be a great or best friend as well? Okay, so I'm sure he'd rather skip the girly gossip stuff, but you two should be close, share things in life and enjoy each others' company outside of the bedroom

 

As for whether guys and girls can be friends, I say yes. My hobbies are more "boyish" than girlie, so I get along with guys more easily than with women.

 

I like girly gossip. I feel privledged when they include me.

[Aurian]

I assume you're in the minority then. Most guys seem to prefer to keep their gossip centred around this or that sports star

[Aurian]

Nah, seems to be true to me too.

 

There is the big ol logical streak that asks if there is a mental connection there or if there is compatibility - location, where the guy is in life, does he fit my "practical" requirements (must have a job, be going somewhere and support himself, must not be living with his parents long-term, must not have apparent anger issues, etc), am I having any doubts, etc. I have to say my logical streak is dominant in the early relationship. Only if my "Spock" side says yes do I let my emotional self get involved.

 

Emotional side - does my heart go "wub!" when I see him or get an email from him? Do I like him? Does he make me laugh, feel safe, do I have fun with him?

 

Animal side - yeah, there has to be some physical attraction too. Guy doesn't have to be a ten on the scale, but some initial appeal has to be there. I find that if that initial appeal is there and the other two parts like him, they colour my eyes and make a 5 into a 10 anyways

 

Anyways, 3/3 leads to a relationship. Missing one of the above, then I don't let myself proceed any further down a relationship track.

[charley]

I assume you're in the minority then. Most guys seem to prefer to keep their gossip centred around this or that sports star

 

Well, I do have at least a dozen more platonic women friends than the average guy. So ya, I'm an exception. I like and enjoy womens' thoughts and feelings. I like listening when they talk about those things. I enjoy discussing them. I also enjoy comforting them and helping them find solutions to problems.

 

Not to brag or anything, but women do gravitate to me as a friend at work and elsewhere. That's because I'm interested in them, empathetic, good at comforting, and also I'm good at finding solutions to problems.

 

I'm not the official councelor at work. We don't have one. However, my female coworkers often come to my office when they are upset, or struggling, and they usually feel better when they leave. Sometimes they just visit for fun, or I visit them for fun. Lunch time is also a good time.

 

During the time I was not at work when I was sick for 9 weeks, plus another week to get my strength back, 3 of my women friends quit work. 1 of them quit due to conflicts at work with others, that I really think I could have worked out if I'd been there. Another quit due to conflicts that I couldn't have worked out. Another quit due to personal issues that I couldn't have worked out. However, there was a 4th friend who was near her breaking point and she told me that just after I got back to work. She's the administrator and my boss (boss of everyone), but when she needs someone to talk to, I'm her first choice, if I'm available. I returned to work just in time because she'd been so stressed she was crying. I talked things out with her and helped her work out the problems by suggesting that she delegate some of the things she's been doing. An admin doesn't have to do everything personally. She only has to make sure things get done. So I offered to take some of her workload, and suggested she delegate some more things to others. She's the boss, so she has every right and the authority to delegate job duties and responsibilities. Now her stress and workload is manageable and everything is still getting done. She's feeling better now.

 

Just yesterday, another friend, this one a nurse, was so stressed out she was ready to break. I couldn't solve her problems, and I couldn't even listen to them because of patient confidentiality issues. So I don't even know the details of her stress. However, I told her to sit on the couch. Then I stood behind her and gave her a 10 minute neck and back rub. That helped her feel somewhat better.

 

I have a lot of women friends for reasons. I like them. They like me. We can provide comfort to each other. Often I help them solve their problems, and sometimes they help me solve mine. We look out for each other. Also, I do enjoy some girly gossip too, though most of them are either to busy or above that sort of thing.

[Aurian]

Wow, so you're good at listening and a problem-solver! Best of both worlds!

 

One reason I like spending time with guys is that they like to DO things more than women. I like to play video games, talk about hockey, get outside and run around a bit, kick a ball around, etc. I'm more of a doer than a talker offline - sitting at a table talking ranks pretty far down on my list of things I like to do. And I really don't care what Britney is up to these days.

[charley]

Wow, so you're good at listening and a problem-solver! Best of both worlds!

 

One reason I like spending time with guys is that they like to DO things more than women. I like to play video games, talk about hockey, get outside and run around a bit, kick a ball around, etc. I'm more of a doer than a talker offline - sitting at a table talking ranks pretty far down on my list of things I like to do. And I really don't care what Britney is up to these days.

 

Well, apparently you're part guy, and I'm part girl. That's OK. It makes us more compatible with the opposite sex.

 

P.S. - I couldn't care less what Britney is doing either. Who's Britney?

 

Girly gossip at work tends towards being about people we know. For example, they all know I asked out one of my friends recently, and she said yes, and then backed out, etc, as I already posted about. They're all friends with her too, and with other mutual friend. Mercifully, they don't ask me about it, but I guarantee they talk about it. They also talk about more cerebral things too. Mostly they are to busy for gossip, and to good for mean gossip. There's only one mean gossip at work, and I will NOT gossip with her and neither will the other women. The penalty for being a mean gossip is that she's excluded from any personal conversations about anyone or anything. We're still nice to her, but we limit our conversations with her to either work, the news, or the weather.

[Aurian]

Oh, that kinda gossip. I'm never in the loop for that kind. I was thinking of celeb gossip like the skanky stuff Britney Spears did this week or what's Lindey Lohan is doing now...

[Remade]

I think that everyone above me who has told you "Yes" are . The question lies within yourself. I personally cannot be friends with a girl who has broken me. I cannot be friends with a girl who I know likes me but I don't feel the same way. It all depends on the person. I can tell you what I believe, I believe that man and woman can't be friends. Why? Because I got a penis, two balls, male ego and selfishness. I'm not telling you it's not possible. But only you have the answer to your question.

[charley]

Wow, so you're good at listening and a problem-solver! Best of both worlds!

 

I'm an alpha-beta male. I have some traits of each. I'd like to think I have the best traits of each; but realistically, in social situaitons related to dating, I'm a beta. i.e. - I'm to shy about asking and I wait to long. Then some other more aggressive guy gets her first.

 

However, aside from my dating failures and deficiencies, I think I'm a good mix of the better traits of the alpha and beta male. For example, I'm a good listener, comforter, and a competant problem solver. Those are a combination of good alpha and good beta male traits.

 

For the most part, I lack the bad traits of the alpha and beta male. For example, I'm not mean or overly aggressive like an alpha male. I'm not impatient with people like an alpha male. I'm not a lazy couch potatoe like a beta male. So I think I do NOT have the bad traits of either.

 

Most men are some combination of alpha and beta. Few are purely one or the other. The trick is to combine the better traits of both, while omitting the negative traits of both. I think I'm pretty good in those ways, except for the beta male shyness about asking a woman out. However, I've been improving at that over the last 6 months. Now I'm asking them. However, I'm still waiting to long to ask. So now I have to work at being faster and ask sooner so I can be competitive - because a good woman also attracts other men. So time is of the essense to get her. I'm learning and improving.

 

With regard to my being friends with women, I think they like my combination of alpha and beta male traits. I do have many longterm women friends and newer ones too.

[Brooke657]

Definatly can be. Some of my best friends are guys and that's all they are, friends.

[charley]

I think that everyone above me who has told you "Yes" are bullsh!tting. The question lies within yourself. I personally cannot be friends with a girl who has broken me. I cannot be friends with a girl who I know likes me but I don't feel the same way. It all depends on the person. I can tell you what I believe, I believe that man and woman can't be friends. Why? Because I got a penis, two balls, male ego and selfishness. I'm not telling you it's not possible. But only you have the answer to your question.

 

In other words, you're saying that it depends on the man. I'd agree with that and I posted something to that effect earlier.

 

So for you the answer is "no". For me the answer is "yes".

 

I think some of this relates to male maturity issues because for many younger men the answer is "no". When I was in my teens and early 20s, the answer for me would have been "no" at that time.

 

For many middle age and older men (say age 30+) the answer is "yes". For me personally, between ages 25 to 32, the answer would have been "sometimes". From age 33+, the answer for me is a definate "yes".

 

So my answer depends partly on me, but also partly on my age and maturity level.

 

===========

 

You know, this ^ might partly explain why some women in their 20s prefer men age 30+. Usually we hear the women in their 20s telling their reasons. In this case, I think we are seeing a young guy showing us the reasons.

[Dako]

I've had many friendships with women, and will have many more.

For some reason, some guys claim it's impossible to do.

Their loss.

[charley]

I've had many friendships with women, and will have many more.

For some reason, some guys claim it's impossible to do.

Their loss.

 

Some guys claim it's impossible because it's impossible for them. It depends on the guy and how he thinks and conducts himself. I tend to think that the more mature a man is, the easier it is to be friends with a woman.

 

The guys who've claimed it's not possible are typically younger guys who are ruled by testosterone and their small head. Their big head might come on line eventually and make it possible to be friends with a woman.

[Dako]

I suspect it's just too confusing for some guys who see avery smile, joke or touch as an eagerly awaited come-on, especially those guys who don't really like women except as sex objects.

[Daligal83]

For you guys that say you cannot be truly friends with females...what happens when you are in a relationship? Do you still try to or want to get with your female friends? Should your girlfriends be worried about you hanging out with them?

[Aurian]

Or is it an insecurity thing perhaps? You don't want female friends because then you'd have to accept her guy friends....?

[pianoguy]

What about this situation:

 

Your three heads are in agreement (I'm more for the two heads theory- I think "heart" is often a euphemism for the little head, but moving along...) that this a good woman, so you are definitely in love with her. For whatever reason, it becomes clear that she doesn't love you back. Could you really maintain friendship with someone for whom you had burning, unrequited love, especially if she had made it clear there was no chance anything would happen?

 

I've been in this position before, I'm interested to see what you guys think.