Falling in love without meeting - possible?

[Batya33]

Me?

 

We spent a week together O.o

 

Yes, to me spending a week together has little relevance to whether the loving feelings are based on knowing the person or based on some image of the person or infatuation, etc.

 

Obviously it could turn into a lasting, loving relationship but in one week with few exceptions most people don't know each other well enough to truly love each other. This is one reason I think basing feelings on typing and talking without meeting in person is unwise because it raises expectations that before meeting you "know" each other for purposes of a lasting romantic relationship. In my experience it takes at least 3-6 months of consistent in person contact to know whether the loving feelings you have are based in reality and form the basis for a lasting relationship.

 

To me, being together one week and having loving feelings doesn't mean that meeting on line only for months and then meeting in person "works" because it is fairly easy to be smitten and get along for one week. It's those people who have long term happy relationships/marriages that started out on line that reflect success in meeting through the internet. i know of many of those but in each case the couple met shortly after interacting on line and lived near enough to each other to see each other on a regular basis and decrease the chance that the relationship was based mostly on fantasy.

 

I realize I have strong opinions on this - obviously there are exceptions and different opinions. Just based on my long term experiences and those of others with on line dating and on line interactions.

 

Of course, enjoy the lovely delicious feelings and I hope you get to see each other soon.

[EvaGina]

My best friend of 6 years told me he loved me when we were living in different cities... when we were waiting to move to the same city, our only contact was on IM... BIG mistake...

 

This guy had been my BEST friend for 6 years, we knew eachother so well!! (he had only moved away a year or two before, before that we saw eachother almost daily) and the IM connection was nothing like what we had in real life, once I got down there... we were finished after a month...

[Sweet Buttabean Jellayroll]

its possible, but u dont want to have intentions of running online to find someone to love.....only time people should have anything online, is if it happens by chance and u didnt plan it....never go online looking for love its a dumb idea imo

[Batya33]

I'll tell that to the dozen engaged and married couples I know (and their children) who met each other through dating web sites. They are all accomplished, bright, attractive people of integrity and character.

[Aurian]

My first relationship was long distant and online. We emailed and IMed every day for two years before he proposed to me. (Me in Canada, him in Europe, so very long distance!). I had spent so much time talking to him and we shared three lovely vacations (totalling 6 weeks) and he seemed to be the real thing. We married, I paid for him to immigrate to Canada, and things fell apart after a month or two. You see, while he could be loving and charming for a few weeks at a time, long term, the real him came through. He was abusive and put me through hell. I was emotionally dragged through the gutter, had my stuff smashed on a regular basis, was told I was worthless, and had a knife waved at me while he threatened to kill me, my family and himself if I left him. He eventually went back, calling my country sick, and convinced me his behaviour was homesickness and stress.

 

And I believed him. He was sweet again. For awhile...

 

The abuse started up again, until I was on the edge of suicide from all the putdowns, soul-shredding and blame that I was the one who ruined a great relationship through my inadequecies.

 

So... Yes, you can fall in love, but are you falling in love with the real person?

 

.

.

.

I am in a new relationship now after divorce and lots of counselling. I found him on an online dating site, but the difference this time is that he lives 5 minutes away from me and we took dating offline quickly. I think I am seeing the real person this time, not something pretend that can only be kept up behind a computer screen and for a week or two at a time.

[Double J]

I fully agree with all of Batya's points. When I was 15 years old, I met a 13 year old girl online. We basically talked online over a series of years and didn't meet in person for roughly 3 years (because of issues with her not wanting to tell her mom about it because she wouldn't allow it, etc). To make the long story short, this girl and I claimed to love each other online and over the phone without ever having met in person. In late 2003, her and I finally met in person. You would think that we, in reality, were in love because we made out on a few occasions. We ended up seeing each other only 3 times in person. Why? Because eventually she started making excuses not to meet up with me anymore, and before I knew it she told me she didn't want a relationship.

 

What's the point to this story? This girl simply didn't love me in person, even after claiming to love me online all those years. The online phase obviously revolved around idealization and "being in love with the IDEA of being in love."

 

How can you claim to love someone online that you've never met before in person? There's just no way.

[tiredofvampires]

Both sides of the argument are correct: you absolutely CAN love a person without having met them, and as somebloke has said, real loving does NOT have to do as much with "mannerisms" but with the personality and character that they have. That doesn't mean however that you will be compatible in a day-to-day relating, though.

 

Contrary to common wisdom, you can actually know a LOT about someone through their writing and calls that are actually more revealing than face-to-face, nuances that actually can be more easily dismissed or overlooked in everyday banter. So IF you are perceptive, it is the other way around sometimes of what many think! Because people censor themselves EVERY DAY in real life, at least for the honeymoon phase. And at the beginning of a relationship, a lot of superficial ground gets covered for a long time in person, whereas purely online, there is nothing but communication and personal revealing, so the superficial stuff gets old fast. Issues of honesty, personal beliefs and consistency are grasped very well online, but as other posters have said, this is not something the uninitiated understand. It happens over a more prolonged period of time. A few e-mails won't do it. The longer you write and talk about your lives, the more accurately you will see someone, as you encounter their attitudes and moods even at a distance.

 

A graphic personal example: I fell in love on a dating site with a man very much in the way the OP has described (only I was transparently honest about myself and very serious about meeting him, we lived 3000 miles apart and it was hard for either of us financially to meet, and only could after 6 months.) I was in no hurry, I wanted to really get to know him as best I could and we both loved to write self-expressive e-mails. Our phone conversations never were less than 7 hours long. We both felt our connection to be "special" and unique and that we had been hit by lightening to have found eachother

 

There was writing on the wall, however; and as all people in the throes of falling in love do, I let these intuitive glitches "slide." Only a couple of weeks into e-mails, I started to feel that he was a bit pressuring and intense with his language, as though I were his last and only correspondent; this was intensely flattering, but I had just started on the dating site and it was all new to me, and while I was seriously into him and attracted, there were a couple of other promising, nice contacts I'd made that I wasn't sure if I was ready to just sever just yet. I was a bit scared to tell him, worried what his reaction would be.

 

I told him that I LOVED writing to him and really wanted to keep pursuing what we'd started, but admitted I still wished to write a couple of others as I am just new on the site and feeling it out. I tried to make him feel very special and adored writing to him, but didn't want him to be misled that I was exclusive -- YET. And sure enough, he became very self-righteous, saying well then go and court others, but he has to withdraw from me and I have to do what I have to do, but leave him out of it until I've decided to come back to him and give him the focus he deserves, since that is what he's giving me. I begged him to keep writing to me -- I mean, this is a DATING SITE, we were just beginning, so I thought it was understood that we might be entertaining other contacts until more time went by and we solidified our click. How could I know he is the ONE to focus on exclusively UNTIL I've met a few people, isn't that just fair? I had 3 weeks to his one full year of experience online dating! He relented and agreed to keep writing me, but he told me he would have to not be as open about himself, and said he cried over this. I was alarmed at this seeming over-reaction, but everything else about his sensitivity was beautiful. Then he went on a musical gig in another city and although he wrote me a lovely e-mail from there, he also told me that one of his friends there was trying to hook him up with some girl at the gig who was "just his type", listing all the qualities she had, saying she called his cell wanting to meet him in his home city (nearby), as she was blown away by his performance and wanted to know him more. What was the purpose of his telling me this? Now I cried, feeling far away, insecure and jealous. I didn't know at the time that this was his method of operation, that he used emotional blackmail to manipulate my emotions.

 

Soon after that, I gave up my other contacts to prove my loyalty to him and to develop us further. I won't even go into the brutal details of our demise -- but the worst was yet to come in person.

 

The moral of this story is that I had ALL that I needed to know after 2 weeks, but it was a matter of choice to see them. The fine print was ALL THERE. As DAKO mentioned, the attributes of his character -- intimidating, self-centered, manipulative, vindictive, pay-attention-only-to-me neediness of adoration were all there LONG before I lived in his house and we encountered the DAILY version of this story. The tactics were so subtle, they could easily be minimized along the way.

 

So the truth is, you can know LOTS about someone's vibe from the very words the choose and how they even begin a letter, if you are looking.

[Batya33]

I agree - I skimmed your post, read the last sentence - but do not agree that you can know whether you are romantically compatible with someone for a long term relationship by typing and talking without ever meeting - I definitely agree that you can screen people out based on e-mails - I received many many that had sexual innuendoes, were rude or offensive, or reflected a lack of any spark of life. I also agree that you can have loving feelings for a stranger but do not agree that those loving feelings are based on knowing the person in person and do not agree that those feelings are relevant to whether you will be romantically compatible in person.

 

On the other hand I exchanged long emails with people I hadn't yet met in person - they were excellent and eloquent writers, seemingly deep thinkers, insightful, people of character and integrity if i was only basing it on words. But when we met in person - the vibes that are impossible to get from typing and talking - body language, eye contact, presense, posture and yes, to some extent looks (and not just those who lied about their looks, but the look in person as compared to the look of a photo) - well, we just didn't click. I have heard hundreds of similar stories.

 

It also has nothing to do much of the time with a lack of honesty or openness - oftentimes people feel more comfortable being open with the safety of a computer screen between them - it simply has to do with the fact that romantic relationships are based in part on chemistry - sexual and friendship chemistry - and for that you need time spent in person.

 

Also, as mentioned above, through typing and talking you cannot discern how the person reacts to other people, what his temper is like in person, and all the other human traits that vary according to whether you are in person or just typing.

 

As far as your example, I received many emails like the ones you described - that were too over the top, too intense - and I screened them out as potential dates - but I don't think that has much to do with whether you can know the opposite - that is, know whether you will click in person and have potential for an in person romantic relationship.

[tiredofvampires]

One other thing: for all those who say that you can only know someone by interacting with them in person, the feeling I had about this man that something was not right, that there was an imbalance and a lack of some realness and groundedness was already there before I met him. Meanwhile, his friends IN PERSON ONLY see the side of him that I fell in love with: his altruistic deeds and beliefs, his compassionate style, his sensitive soul and his steadfastness through difficult problems (other people's.) He is a gem -- and I still love him for all these things. But there is another side that his most perceptive friends were clueless to, despite being in his presense for years, and I could "see" through it to the dark parts of his character before we even met.

 

So go figure!

[tiredofvampires]

Batya, I don't disagree with you -- but I think there is more that you can tell about someone than you are giving credit for. You said yourself I think that you have overlooked some clues because you might have been infatuated.

 

It's interesting that when I met this man after 6 months, when I was finally in his presense, all the visceral misgivings were simply confirmed. Nothing was NEW. You might wonder why would anyone keep going with so many worrisome gut feelings, and all I can say is that the many superlative qualities of his personality and character and personal story, not to mention charm, far outweighed these non-verbal and fine print reservations.

 

I would be interested to know how long the longest e-mail correspondence that you had was, where you felt you were enamored of someone special that you planned to meet, before you met?

[Batya33]

I agree that one can screen out potential problems through typing and talking but cannot tell whether there will be romantic compatibilty in person for purposes of a long term relationship. Being able to sense a dark side is not the same as having information that is relevant to long term compatibility. I never ever got infatuated through typing and talking because I simply did not allow myself to go there - I knew I was talking to a complete stranger and until we met in person he was a complete stranger for romantic purposes.

 

Based on many experiences of many friends and acquaintances, I never believed in typing and talking for very long before meeting and refused to interact with strangers on line who insisted on doing that - I assumed they were married or just interested in being e-mail buddies. I met over 100 men in person who I originally came in contact with through a dating site.

 

I typically e-mailed a few times, had one or two phone conversations and then met for coffee. There were a few exceptions - there was one guy I had about 5 or 6 long conversations with who I really liked on the phone - we really clicked. In person, he slouched, was barely talkative and was incredibly dull. Another guy and I spoke and e-mailed on and off for two months and in person the chemistry was incredible just as it had been on line. But what I couldn't tell from typing and talking was that he had a serious psychological disorder that he wasn't treating properly. From the nature of the disorder I would never have known through typing and talking.

 

I know of many people - very bright, intuitive people - who did the email/talking thing for months, got their hopes up and in person they didn't click. I was not surprised and am never surprised when people don't click in person romantically or see a potential for a romantic relationship after spending time on line and on the phone.

 

Other things I learned in person that I could not have learned by phone/e-mail:

 

rudeness to waitstaff

physically leaning into my space at a small table

looking disheveled and disoriented (likely on drugs)

effeminate mannerisms (a particular turn off for me) - sometimes I could tell that on the phone but not always

a depressive or hostile vibe from body language

 

Then there were a number of men who lied about their looks/weight, etc and possibly age. Lying is not the main reason I am not in favor of using typing and talking to get to know someone but it is a reason.

 

there are many other examples.

 

I'm glad you didn't get more involved with the guy you described! What happened to you would not have happened to me because the "superlative qualities" would not have been superlative to me unless and until I confirmed those qualities by getting to know him in person - I would have said "he seems to be an interesting guy but I won't know unless/until we meet in person" - also when it came to on line dating, I erred on the side of not meeting if there was negativity or bad vibes where if it were a set up through friends I might meet even if there were a few doubts. i am not criticizing your analysis - we just have a very different perspective on what is relevant from typing and talking to a stranger for purposes of evaluating a potential romantic relationship (platonic is different - I have several e-mail/IM platonic penpals over the last few years who I have never met and I consider them friends)

[tiredofvampires]

I'm glad you didn't get more involved with the guy you described!

 

Well, yeah...13 months was enough. But enough to shatter my spirit, and cause me such great agony about my prospects with dating/finding a "soulmate" that I have almost been at the brink of a nervous breakdown. That's how I got to ENA...it is has left me with many daunting problems and questions, because I REALLY thought he was going to be my final "destination." For 13 months, we were VERY involved: we had discussed possible marriage, possible pre-marital counseling, where we would live together. The end was a personal nightmare of loss and dashed illusions.

 

So I can't exactly use my example as the paragon of successful online dating. I have no clout if you look at the final outcome.

 

I do respect your approach and think it's very sound. But there are a number of reasons why in respects, it doesn't tell the whole story. For one, which I intend to start a thread on soon, as it is of MAJOR CONCERN to me, is that from the sound of it, you have a lot more pick of viable dates from your online experience than I do. You don't indicate where you live, but for some, like me, as much as this sounds like it is a practical "excuse", it is VERY true: due to my location, I would be hard-pressed to find 100 men in my entire state I could date. I am located in an isolated part of the country, where people on my intellectual, emotional, and cultural wavelength are RARE. I'll leave it at that for now, but to say that many, many women here echo the same frustration in meeting "quality" men. So the luxury of meeting someone after a few e-mails and phone calls is simply NOT A POSSIBILITY as in your case. If it were, I would do so gratefully.

 

So given this severe handicap, what does one do? One "types and talks" to the extent that one can, and although I agree with much of what you say is missed, a lot depends on what KIND of typing and talking you do. I don't know the extent or depth to which your friends who did the online thing for months engaged with their love interests, but with my ex, we were waaaaaaaaaaay into and eventually past discussions of things such as how we would treat people in various situations and trying to give the other an accurate idea of our body language. For example, he told me that any date who talked down to "service people" lost lots of respect from him; he told me of the disconnect between his singing voice (very resonant and expressive) and what some call his "flat" speaking voice and he hoped I didn't find him "flat"! I voiced our insecurities, we talked about how we felt people should be treated in various situations, we talked about our dislikes of various ways people respond and how WE would respond instead, in social situations, in personal situations. He told me about an experience helping a couple (his friends) move, and how they argued, and his idea of what was petty and what each one should have been considering. So our conversations were not of the shallow variety, they were meaty and of substance about values, how we behave and what we think is appropriate behavior, what our friends criticized in us and our self-doubts and vulnerabilities, and our physical hang-ups. So looking at your list of things you didn't know until you met them, I would say each one after 6 months I had a very good grasp of without meeting. It REALLY does depend on how shallow your talks have been, and they can be going on for 6 months and still be shallow even so, but after OUR 6 months of 10-page letters every day and all-night phone calls, there was just too much information for these kinds of things to be hidden. I think if you have never gotten that deep with someone because you refused to do so online with a romantic potential, it is hard to see that after 6 months of very intent and focused and in-depth relating, that you would be far past the point of saying, "this is an interesting person", that they would be much more than just "interesting" and that you could love their sensibilities, their common dreams with yours, your compatibility of beliefs and attitudes and their conversational "click" with you to the point of LOVE. So just because you didn't find out certain things about a person until you saw them in person (such as rudeness to wait help) doesn't mean you "couldn't" know.

 

That's not to say I could have known everything, obviously. Otherwise we'd be together today. The only thing I'm arguing is that knowing him in person sooner would have revealed these things. I think it was more a matter of TIME, which in every relationship starts to show someone's "true colors" more. (Though it's funny, if we met first in real life, I think he would have intimidated me with his sophistication, so I might not have even been in his circles to say hi to begin with.)

 

I think you are good to be as cautious as you are, and I think it is good advice for anyone; but it doesn't mean that men who want to write more are either married or just want to be online penpals. I think it's a rather limited view, since my experience has shown certain men to just be shy, patient and people who express themselves well in the written word. Then, when you factor in that someone seems more right for you but they are far away, it becomes a necessity.

 

I, too, have pure platonic online penpalships and love those people, but that does not mean that people can't blossom into a romantic interest this way. Look at Elizabeth Barret Browing and Robert Browning -- they met after 4 years of correspondence and being in love from afar and when they met, it was for a lifetime. Maybe this is the exception, but if you can't meet sooner, it is indeed quite possible (since people do meet online and have LDRs and then marry), that this quaint Victorian story has a modern-day applicability.

[Batya33]

I skimmed your post only for now but let's just agree to disagree that for purposes of a long term romantic relationship, typing and talking without meeting gives you relevant information.

 

As I said a few times, it gives you enough in my opinion to screen someone out but not to evaluate whether you two would be compatible in a long term romantic (as opposed to platonic) relationship. I agree it gives 'some" relevant information but the risks - raised expectations based on only typing and talking (which happened in your case), falling in love with an on line persona instead of a real person (also which happened in your case, at least in my opinion) do not make the risks of extended typing and talking worth it. I saved myself a lot of unnecesary heart ache (obviously some is inevitable in searching for love) and a lot of time by meeting in person asap.

 

I do not agree at all that you can type and talk in a certain way in order to get more relevant information (other than screening out). I don't care how much someone tells me about his values, how he treats people, and examples - even if it is totally true, if I am to be romantically involved for the long term I need to see those things right in front of me, in person, as they are happening. After all even the most self-honest of us remember events perhaps a little differently than they happened, even hours later. Also, you then have no idea how he would react in any situation if you were there - because often that changes the dynamic.

 

I write very well and clearly (well, maybe not here!) and am very verbal and articulate - and have dated many men who are the same or better at that sort of thing than me and I know of hundreds of women who do on line dating and have done it - we've all done the typing/talking thing to varying degrees - some for months - and with all due respect, the suggestion that if you are a certain kind of writer or speaker you can know what others only can know in person just does not make a whole lot of sense. The deeper the conversations I find the more unrealistic it can be because you expect a "deep" communicator on line to be that way in person, and the intensity of the typing/talking makes you forget about how people describe things in hindsight (even with the best of intentions) and without in person eye contact and body language you are getting a skewed at best/false at worst, view of the person.

 

It's a bit dangerous in my opinion to believe that out of all people who have tried to learn about a person for romantic potential just through typing and talking, that you and the other person both possess superior qualities in communicating through typing and talking such that you two don't need all the in person communication and body language, and interacting with friends, families, strangers, co-workers that us less deep/more ordinary types to. I know you didn't mean to be presumptuous or to claim to be deeper, but that is how it comes accross a bit.

 

As far as browning and her love - yes I have heard that several times as support for typing and talking and my response is that these days with the ability to travel to meet you have to be wary about those people who choose to communicate on line without meeting for an extended period of time. We also of course have no idea if they were romantically compatible or what there expectations were in that regard. Obviously there are mail order brides/arranged marriages etc where it doesn't really matter if you meet in person before the wedding.

 

Obviously the better you are at talking on the phone the more information you can convey but I will never agree that it replaces the kind of information you get from meeting in person and meeting in person over a period of time. To me that is crucial, essential information for romantic relationships and all the rest is 90% being "in love" (romantically, as opposed to platonically) with an on line persona.

 

As far as people who express themselves better in writing - sure, that could be true - I am not a person who would be happy in a relationship with a man who preferred to express himself in writing or who felt so uncomfortable communicating in person that he would write instead. I agree that a woman who prefers to be with a man who is not comfortable communicating in person (perhaps because she is not) could do very well simply typing and talking or perhaps spending time in person with no expecations of decent in person communication.

 

I also know of people who prefer to hide behind a computer screen and for them that might work too (and I screened out those types when I did on line dating easily because they hemmed and hawed about meeting in person even when they lived close by).

 

I had hundreds of men to choose from - at least (not meaning that they all wanted me! - just referring to the pool of available men!!) - because I made it my business to live in an area that has a huge percentage of single people, - I've always lived right outside a major city but moved in 12 years ago.

 

I did not marry someone I met on line (I am not married), I was engaged to someone many years ago I met through a personal ad, but I thought my on line dating was successful. I met some very interesting/great people, some of whom I am still friendly with, I got even more "practice" at dating, often I had a lot of fun, I learned about all different types of people, hobbies, culture, art, etc. and the percentage of "jerks" was very low. I definitely noticed an increase in my disappointment level if I typed./talked for more than a few times before meeting, if it didn't work out.

 

Again I am sorry about what happened to you - if it were me I would take it as a sign that perhaps if at all possible you work on moving to an area with more singles, that you realize that you got attached through typing and talking maybe even more than you would have in person (which likely would only have been a few dates before you learned exactly the same things, in my opinion), etc. It may turn out to be a blessing.

 

And for those who skimmed once again I am not referring to forming close platonic friendships on line - I am just referring to believing that you can gague potential for a long term romantic relationship (not a fling, not an arranged marriage) by typing and talking only. In person I still think it takes at least several months of regular in person dates to know whether there is a basis for a lasting relationship but without those in person meetings in general it is a bad idea to type and talk and get attached for romantic purposes without meeting.

[Dixie]

Finding love on the internet...sighhhhhhh lol

 

It's very possible to find love on the internet. You spend your days and nights with this person and find so much about them that you know more about them than anyone else and they know more about you than anyone else. It's very possible. I found my soul mate on the internet.. but that's another story...lol

 

I have found many many friends on the internet. In fact, I have found some of my best friends online. I share more with these people than I do my own family. Although, I do have a little advice... Be careful... I got burnt really bad by a person that I considered my best friend. I was hurt and can honestly say that I won't ever trust anyone again because this person not only lied to me but was not even who I thought they were!! We spoke on the phone quite a bit and I would have done anything and I do mean anything for this person. It really hurt me bad when it all turned out to be a lie. So.. please be careful who you trust!! I found out the hard way and once someone takes your trust.. it's almost impossible to get it back!!~

[Batya33]

I agree that you can have strong feelings for someone you type and talk to and that you can find platonic friends on the internet who you never meet in person. I do not agree that you can find out if you will be romantically compatible in person from typing and talking only. I do not agree that an interaction where the two people have never met in person can be defined as a "romantic relationship" or that the love feelings are based on in-person contact or in-person communication because, by definition, they are not.

[tiredofvampires]

So.. please be careful who you trust!! I found out the hard way and once someone takes your trust.. it's almost impossible to get it back!!~

 

Thank you for that, Dixie...how very, very true. That's how I feel right now. And yet, I feel like though I am the wiser, it will just make me more cautious. Somehow, I'll have to learn to trust again...

 

Batya, it sounds like you think I am underhandly speaking in a superior manner with this:

 

t's a bit dangerous in my opinion to believe that out of all people who have tried to learn about a person for romantic potential just through typing and talking, that you and the other person both possess superior qualities in communicating through typing and talking such that you two don't need all the in person communication and body language, and interacting with friends, families, strangers, co-workers that us less deep/more ordinary types to. I know you didn't mean to be presumptuous or to claim to be deeper, but that is how it comes accross a bit.

 

and I'm sorry you feel that way, because I have said a lot to affirm your position that obviously, I can't know everything from typing and talking, and that furthermore, my relationship was not a beacon of success. Please do not feel the need to become self-defensive, I have no quibble with you about your approach, as I said and even praised. (I find it a little deflating myself, and even a bit ironic given this subject we're discussing that you keep saying you are only "skimming" my posts, as thoug they aren't that important to warrant your full attention, whereas I read thoroughly everything you've written, paying attention to the details of your points.) I am not saying anything you say "does not make sense" (I have said the contrary), though you've said that to me -- and I can only say that I think it makes sense to say that the longer and more deeply you engage in conversations with someone, the more you will know about them at least in various compatible aspects.

 

I was not trying to cheapen your relations with people, I was just saying that if you write only a few e-mails you WILL not know their attitudes towards wait help, whether they look like they are on drugs, whether they lean into the table too close (something very romantic under other circumstances), etc. as you have listed. You are RIGHT, you WILL NOT have a clue about these things online if you go the route you go -- all I am saying is that if you type and talk as we did (I don't know about others), a lot of these things you will find out about their persona in person before you get to see it in real life. I KNEW these things about my ex before we met because of the typing and talking -- that is MY experience. I think if we'd stopped and moved it to a coffee shop, I would have found out anyway, and sooner (which would have been good!!) but the man who was an "online persona" was also a man I continued to be in love with in person.

 

But as I've said, yes -- there WERE surprises. For example, we discussed how I am kind of messy and he is a neat freak, and what problems that might pose. He said he had lived with untidy women before, so he knew that wasn't an issue for him. What I didn't know was that he would have so much contempt for the amount of food I wanted to stock in the refrigerator. This was not a make or break deal, but just one of many things. I did not know that he snored so loudly, I could not sleep with him, which DID end up becoming a very, very serious real-life issue. He had said though that he loved me so much, that he would do anything for me, so I had banked on there being a safety net whatever we encountered. I didn't imagine him saying one day that it was MY fault I couldn't sleep next to him because I am a light sleeper.

 

So the problem was not so much that I fell in love with an online persona (though I don't deny that's part of it), but that HE WAS NOT HONEST WITH HIMSELF. I think it was part of a psychological disorder that I knew he had already. But today, I AM IN LOVE WITH THIS MAN STILL, not his online persona, but HIM. I miss who he is and was to me in all the ways IN PERSON we had a very special rapport and amazing mystical "fit" beyond anyone else I had ever met IN PERSON. It only began online. Unfortunately I think it was more a fantasy for him than me, all the way through.

 

A relationship takes many compatible aspects to fall into place -- some are more of a practical and pragmatic and habits sort, and I think those are the ones you are focusing on. I am addressing spiritual dimensions. You sound like a very practical woman, and there is nothing wrong with that at all! But I think that one can establish a spiritual connection, which is the essense of the mystery we call love, that can build over time before you meet someone (the Brownings had a lifelong torrid love affair). I do not suggest that people have LDRs if they can meet in person!! That would be silly.

 

But some are not in that situation, or meet by chance a spiritual kindred soul online and I would say that as long as you have a PLAN to meet and type and talk broadly about your weaknesses as well as strengths, and you use all your clues to watch for consistency (which is the key to honesty), you can find a romantic connection without meeting. This does not mean the other practical and pragmatic romantic needs aren't necessary on down the line, it will NOT work otherwise as a whole relationship in the living it out -- it DOES mean though that you can find an intellectually, spiritually, philosophically and emotionally romantically compatible partner for a long-term relationship typing and talking in my opinion, assuming they and you are HONEST, honest with self and the other.

 

I am saying we are both right, depending on what aspects of compatibility we are talking about.

[Batya33]

If you read my posts I am not basing my opinions on a few emails but my own personal experiences of many emails plus the experiences of at least a hundred people who have attempted what you have, plus a lot of reading and conversations I have had on the subject. I am too busy to read your posts - I apologize but my reason for skimming is that you continue to misinterpret what I wrote and continue to repeat what I already responded to so with all due respect I do not see the point to continue responding.

 

We have different views on what can be learned from typing and talking to a stranger for purposes of figuring out whether there is compatibility for a romantic relationship. I have no need to be "right" on the subject, so as I wrote above, please let's agree to disagree.

 

I will respond to this:

 

"it DOES mean though that you can find an intellectually, spiritually, philosophically and emotionally romantically compatible partner for a long-term relationship typing and talking in my opinion, assuming they and you are HONEST, honest with self and the other."

 

 

Even assuming complete honesty, my opinion is exactly the same - you get little relevant information if any for purposes of a long term romantic relationship by typing and talking and in many cases it can hamper or sabotage the future romantic relationship by unrealistically raising expectations and by perpetuating the image that you develop from typing and talking which typically is not consistent with the person as he/she is in person.

 

I do believe that you can connect with someone initially on line, meet in person ASAP and then date in person consistently over time and find a compatible partner - it has happened to many of my friends. In contrast I have seen many, many people claim just like you about this deep connection through typing and talking, and how articulate and honest they were, and how they "just knew" this was their soulmate and without that in person meeting and getting to know each other in person, all of that had no relevance to whether a romantic relationship could happen in person.

 

The majority of the time it was because in person for whatever reason - body language, vibes, chemistry, eye contact - and yes, sometimes looks (but not that the photo was a lie - just looks as in attraction in person) - they did not click - and it was so much worse than if they had met in person ASAP because of the attachments that were formed prior to meeting and the raised and unrealistic expectations that it would be a relationship. The minority of the time it was because of lies by one or both parties.

 

Obviously all relationships require risks and vulnerability. But in my personal opinion I think it is foolish and potentially very harmful - and UNNECESARILY risky to type and talk to someone you've never met in person for an extended period of time prior to meeting in person. Fairly often it says a lot about one or both of the person's loneliness/neediness than it does about the "connection" but even in those cases where the people have fun fulfilling healthy lives socially and otherwise my opinion is the same.

 

Please, let's agree to disagree particularly since your posts in my view are starting to take a tone that makes me a little uncomfortable.

[tiredofvampires]

I agree that we disagree on some of the things we've discussed, but not all. I have invalidated nothing of what you've said and know it comes from a place of a lot of dating experience. I'm sorry you feel I've misinterpreted your words, I'm not sure where, but it's okay and we'll leave it alone. I was going to ask you what you mean by "relevant" information that cannot be gotten online or on the phone (unless you just mean body language and interpersonal habits as you've said), but I won't belabor this as you feel uncomfortable and that's not my intention.

 

I have respected your views and am disappointed that doesn't come through, and I certainly take your seasoned opinions to heart.

[tiredofvampires]

And furthermore, if you are completely correct, that means I AM DOOMED, because I am NOT in the position to move to a different town/city now for a variety of very critical and serious personal reasons. I have a wide social circle but KNOW that the mileau I am in is not socially suitable for me to meet singles on my wavelength. So if I took your advice, I'd have to pretty much figure on a life of depression and resignation that there is no love out there for me somewhere to engage an interest in, unless we are both financially able (which I am not) to travel a LOT and immediately, which may not be possible. It may take more time and obstacle-overcoming to be together, as risky as that is. In the meantime, I think growing a heart connection would be pivotal. I'm glad for you that you don't have to suffer the fears and loneliness of not having a big pond to fish in LOCALLY. I mean that sincerely, kudos to you!

[Batya33]

Well, no I think I said that if it were possible to move to a place with a lot of singles then I would advise that - not sure why you took that input to the extremes you did. As far as the relevant information I listed that at least once in the previous posts so feel free to re-read (or not ;-)).

 

If I lived in an area without a lot of single men I still would not advocate typing and talking over meeting in person asap. I would meet someone who lived within a 60-90 mile radius, and meet halfway within a week - maybe two - of a few e-mails and a phone call (because I think it is essential - including for purposes of safety - to have a 15 minute phone call or so just to decrease the risk of an unsafe situation - there is always a risk so I always met in a public place and never got in the same car with him on a first meeting - but the phone call helped me screen out many potentially awkward or even unsafe first meetings).

 

I realize that not everyone had the opportunities I did to grow up right outside one of the best cities in the world and then move into that city - I do know that I made it happen by making that a factor in the career I chose to pursue - not a main factor but a factor.

 

Not everyone can or should make that choice. I have friends who met their husbands/wives living in rural areas, small towns, small cities and major cities - every combination under the sun. For me, since I only date within my religion and since I chose a career that required long, sometimes unpredictable hours I knew that without lots of time to date, I'd better try and live in an area with a high concentration of singles of my religion, singles events, cultural events, etc. I also have always been a city person, very into the arts and cultural events so I had a better chance of meeting someone with that in common in a city than in a rural area.

 

I am really baffled as to why you would go to the lengths you did and suggest that I wrote that my way was the only way. I don't think I ever even said I was "correct." Oh well - hope that cleared this up.

 

I wish you all the best in meeting people and if the typing/talking approach works for you, more power to ya-

[Rabican]

Its not possible. Assuming they are telling the truth about who and what they are... I think its possible to fall for the 'fantasy' or the idea of who they are. But its not possible to fall for them. Why? because 'online' doesnt compare to real life. You dont pick up those little quirks, and nuanaces that makes someone who they are. The way they act, they way the carry themselves, the way they dress, their manners etc.

 

Ill give you an example. I had a neighbor in my hometown, he was a generally nice guy... never did anything to bother me. However, I HATED this kid. Honestly (dont know why) I wanted to bodyslam him every time I saw him. Something about his demeanor, his attitude, the cocky, "im so cool' manner in which he acted made me really not like this guy. So lets pretend he was a girl, and talking online I thought wow shes super cool. Then we meet, and shes the biggest snotty... PARIS HILTON comes to mind... guess what? You cant fall in love with that.

[Dako]

I couldn't fall in love with Paris Hilton, although I never met her in person.

[tiredofvampires]

Well, no I think I said that if it were possible to move to a place with a lot of singles then I would advise that - not sure why you took that input to the extremes you did.

 

Because of this, which you said:

 

If I lived in an area without a lot of single men I still would not advocate typing and talking over meeting in person asap. I would meet someone who lived within a 60-90 mile radius, and meet halfway within a week - maybe two

 

The nearest metropolitan place where I have a good pick of people is 3000 miles away, with oceanwater in between. I am an artist, on a small island, living below the poverty line. I have some very difficult practical circumstances to deal with as well that keep me here. It took MAJOR COURAGE for me to reach out 2 years ago to believe in myself and the love I think I am capable of giving and "bringing to" me, when I went up on a dating site. I am with you on loving the arts and city life and the stimulation, I was brought up with intellectual and cultural affiliations that are near-non-existent here. But "meeting halfway" would not be possible unless it were on a raft in the middle of the Pacific. Hopefully that fills in a few gaps. I'll save the details, since I'll start a thread somewhere, it is such a grave concern to me. I know from other stories and posters (even on this thread -- the Florida-South Carolina post) that happy endings happen for people in LDRs, and many of them do not have the luck or the luxury to have a convenient drive to the one they feel may be it. If there are so many fish in the sea near someone that a long distance is not even worth it, hey, great! I just don't have that kind of vast pickin's to be able to cross people I have a great distance rapport with off the list because of distance. You have narrowed a search criteria down to under a 100 miles and said that if that cannot be done, you would not recommend a prolonged long-distance connection anyway, because it gives "no relevant" information at all about someone's romantic potential. That, imo, is tantamount to DOOMED for someone like me. Pardon the melodrama, but if you are saying that if you were basically stranded without local or even NEAR local connections, and building a bond that gets your heart pumping via phone and e-mail is meaningless ("irrelevant"), then that means forget looking for anyone. Is there any other option after what your recommendations are?

 

It is not so much that I think e-mail and phone are the way to go with dating, but the only thing that has bouyed me up in times of severe discouragement and feeling trapped is to "put it out there to the Universe" that love could come from anywhere and that you never know where in this world the right person really will be, so I make the terribly daunting process (which so far has devasted me) of "typing and talking" into a challenge and possibility, maybe even an only hope (unless a miracle happens here, which I don't imagine at this age and having recirculated ad nauseum in this tiny community). I choose to think of it in a positive way, and maybe my hopes will always be dashed, and I will always be in for a horrible disappointment tango-ing with "online personas", but I do feel there are real people who will build a sense of reality and not fantasy. Right now my sense of hope is so damaged, that this thread has really gotten me down, but I am trying to remind myself that the man I met isn't ALL men and other people as I've said have bridged the distance. Maybe I will get lucky; the best I can do is hold a vision in my heart and try to have faith.

[Batya33]

I wish you the best of luck. We just have different definitions of LDR - to me there is no such thing as a romantic LDR where the two people have never met in person - that's e-mail penpals, platonic friends, etc. But that's fine if that's how you consider it. I don't know you and this is speculation but this is what it sounds like: since you don't meet a lot of men "in real life' and perhaps you were a bit lonely and needy, you clung on to this on line persona that you seemed to click with so well - I have seen it happen, many times.

 

I am in an LDR right now. Half of our 1.5 year relationship has been LDR - and even though we see each other about every 2 weeks during the LD period, I see where the fantasy part kind of builds and we both lose a little perspective when we're apart. Some of that is kind of yummy, to be honest, but when we are together again that requires a bit of an adjustment because in person is simply different in very important ways.

 

I understand that you have circumstances where it is not feasible to move closer to a populated area and you now understand that I was not writing before that you had to do that or forget it. I still cannot advocate that you again enter into a typing/talking interaction because it sounds to me like that would end up in you feeling far more lonely and needy than you might otherwise. Just my humble opinion. It also sounds like you have a good social circle there so maybe you can adjust, for now, your definition of lonely. I happen to love being alone, but I don't walk in your shoes so I don't know how that would be.

 

I do think people find love in all different ways including on line. I do not think people find the kind of love that forms the basis of an in person long term romantic relationship without getting to know the person in person over time -- meaning once a week dates or so over a several month period.

 

I think you can fall in love or in lust on line, feel incredible feelings of love, chemistry, attraction -- with the on line persona and that those feelings have little or nothing to do with whether the two of you will click in person, much less whether you will have the basis for a long term romantic relationship. That time spent typing and talking past a few e-mails and a few phone calls is wasted time and potentially harmful /sabotaging to the chances of having a healthy romantic relationship in person. That time spent on line to me does not count past those first few phone calls as time spent getting to know each other for purposes of a romantic relationship (as opposed to a friendship or e-mail pen pal interaction). more than not counting, to me it is typically harmful and counterproductive.

 

All of those feelings might also exist once you meet and spend time in person over time, but that has little or nothing to do with the feelings through typing and talking all that time - it just so happens that the couple also had feelings once they met in person and perhaps the typing and talking makes the first date easier. Often it makes it MUCH harder because of raised, unrealistic expectations and often it means that what could have been a great relationship is torpedoed from the start because of those unrealistic expectations based on getting attached through typing and talking.

 

Again, you seem interested in taking that approach again - nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with people having different opinions. All the best to you and I hope you keep doing your art!!

[tiredofvampires]

First, thank you for your well-wishes, and encouragement with my art.

 

As I have said in my earlier posts, SOME of what you say rings true to me, that there are types of things that I could not have known would bring us down until we spent time together (after the initial 6-month writing get-to-know, we had a plan to meet every 3 months or so, as he had to work around his work schedule to be here and also had to foot the travel expenses mostly -- there simply was NO MORE FREQUENT OPTION, as we both have obligations at home; but my last visit (our third) I was there for 2 months.)

 

My differing with you is around your statements that none of what can be gleaned from writing to someone indicates their compatibility romantically. If someone is sensitive to the arts, creative, educated, values hard work, gives to charity and does crisis intervention volunteer work, believes in taking care of their partner even when they fall ill, has my spiritual beliefs, is politically and socially progressive, and is romantic by sending me unique gifts, loves to listen and and...IF THEY ARE WALKING THIS TALK as I get to know them every day over a long time, as opposed to other traits, there is a much greater chance we will be compatible romantically -- and that a pattern of who they are, both good and bad, will emerge. I repeat again, this doesn't mean success is a shoe-in, but it does mean a LOT of relevant (for me) info that I LOOK FOR IN A MAN is there. There is no point in finding out he has impeccable social manners and graceful body language after many fun and charming dates, but eventually get to know his inner spiritual life or childlike imagination is missing.

 

I am simply saying that I can fall in love with a person based on the kind of commonalities and complementarities we share, and often I find that this translates into being turned on by their physical persona.

 

If he has put on a grand fascade for that time (intentionally or unintentionally), that's another matter...all I'm saying is that if someone does not deliberately distort themselves, there will be a lot of attributes that can be assessed the longer you know them, because the unintentional distortions do start to rear their heads. (Including the stuff of "rude to wait help" -- that one we actually had a great, long conversations about!) It's not the whole story, I agree with you, but it's PART of the story. If he had had other qualities and ways of communicating, I wouldn't have felt he had some of the "raw materials" I was looking for. In fact on this particular dating site, there is an extensive questionairre (no, not e-harmony!) and we came out with VERY highly compatible marks in EVERY aspect, daily life issues included. I am quite a skeptic about tests, but this one was very comprehensive and said a lot about ME that was accurate.

 

The reasons we didn't work out in person were very numerous, but they started even when we hadn't met -- and in fact I was not blind to them. Yes, there was a "yummy" fantasy element, but contrary to what you have inferred from my posts, I am quite a patient person who also loves to be alone. I can relate to another thread in the soulmate" section about feeling the loneliness of not having a mate even though one is able to very much stand the time alone. I go to movies alone, I am never bored, and my attitude was that since I have done it as often as being in a relationship, I don't want to rush getting to know anyone. Dates are not much my style -- everyone is trying to impress, feeling on the spot -- I much prefer slowly getting to know a person as a friend and then developing the rapport. This was an early sticking point, if you read my other posts on other threads (he derided my wanting to be "friends first") He was very impetuous, I was not. If the fantasy element was in place, yes, I agree -- and it was really coming from HIM. To this day, I feel crushed that he did not love ME, maybe the idealization of me. This, however, was a pattern I believe with him, no matter how we would have met...I think he loved Women, not women, with their imperfections. That's another whole story.

 

I was reluctant to call him my "bf" sight-unseen, which made him very angry. I was patient and not in a hurry; he could barely stand the distance once he opened his heart. I knew we had a plan to meet and I was ready to wait for it to happen, leading my life (not lonely, but excitedly!) in the meantime.

 

It is ironic that when I first initiated a "wink" at him, he responded back that he normally wouldn't have any interest in someone that far away; but then again, he lives in a HUGE diverse city. And he said that nonetheless, it was the best profile he had seen "near or far", and he was no newbie, in fact he had considered quitting the dating scene for a while. So who was more realistic, me or him? An open question.

 

So was I lonely/needy? I think we both were in a sense, for a person to connect with us in ways we had not been so far in relationships. But as far as your assessment of my personality, it was not a case of clinging, at least on my end. And I would rather be alone than with the wrong person. I am quite independent. But I yearn for a life-long partner, need physical affection and nothing takes the place of the emotional intimacy. I CAN be alone, I just don't wish to be single anymore.

 

How to find that connection then? Well...despite my describing my predicament, you don't seem to offer any solutions. So we are both stumped, yes? I could not afford to take bi weekly plane rides, nor could he, and for a while we had to build up our resources. I am not looking for a sugar daddy, I'm looking for someone who is the right match for me on a beliefs/values, interests and attitudes level, with practicalities to fall into place as "there is a way if there is a will." Though we were on a splendid track with THAT PART of the equation, the rest fell through (and mostly as I said due to some problems I think he has with relationships and psychological hindrances.)

 

You have not suggested alternatives for my predicament.

 

And so what if we met for 2 weeks before we called it a relationship? We would know the body language you are describing, and the turn-on factor, and the little nuances, yes. But the fundamental things I described above? That takes more than a few of the "compulsory" meetings, which in MY opinion only reveal "this person isn't out of the question!" I had a few dates in person through link removed before my bf, and they were so superficially informative compared to the "I know you" feeling I had when I was finally united with my bf. I'm not sure why you'd say this experience isn't valid. It seems a bit black or white.

 

If you've read through this, thank you for your time, and good luck in your relationship, too!