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Advice for the nice guys in dating.


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I personally have been happy with my dating experiences for quite some time now. But when I was in my late teens, I was the typical nice guy who constantly got blown off so I stopped dating for a little while and watched the guys who I considered to be successful with women do their thing. Yes, they were all jerks and treated woman like crap... But I soon realized that being a jerk wasn't the draw. I noticed that woman were responsive to confidince and non-responsive to men who constantly seek validation. The jerks tended more to have there own separate life and things that they enjoy, things that they were more interested in than their girlfriends and nice guys tended to turn their complete attention to the woman of their affection.


So to you nice guys, the problem isn't being nice, the problem is being obsorbed in a girl and losing your identitiy. The problem is in constantly bringing gifts while seeking her validation for your every move. These are the nice guy qualities that turn women away. My solution was to be my own source of validation and live a life that I enjoy whether I have a perticular woman I'm interested in or not. When I like a girl, I make sure she has the attention she needs while also reserving time for my friends and my hobbies. I'm confident in my actions. I've found that some woman will throw out little tests asking you to give something up for them, like your night with the guys or a hobby. I've also found that the passing answer isn't to give in, the answer is to stand by your values and earn her respect in the process. If I really like the girl sometimes I'll invite her to come along but I'm not going to give whatever it is up.



Being nice is a good thing but living life seeking someone elses validation and being needy isn't. Being an jerk is a bad thing but being confident and independent are good. Just something to think about from a confident independent nice guy to the world.


In reading this, I didn't really focus on me being a nice guy, I was more focusing on the little changes to be made. Understand that it is incredibly important to still be nice and do the right things, open doors, pull out her chair, pay her compliments but not because you want her to like you, because you mean it. There should come a time where she is the most important thing in your life but you still have to maintain your identity. If you really understand these things you're on your way to a lot of success and choices in the dating world. There are very few men in the world who have all of these qulities and realizing that will add to your confidence factor which is your first step in the right direction Good Luck!!!


And women really do want a nice guy, the just need to be attracted to be anything more than friends and they can't be attracted to someone they can't respect.

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Dead on with this one. Good advice, I'm sure it will help out many guys on here.


I really, really hope it will, but unfortunately, there are so many people that refuse to admit they're not nice, they're just passive. Jesus could come down from the sky and tell them this, but they would still insist they are nice guys and girls just like jerks.


In fact, I would bet there are more "Nice Guy" threads on eNotalone than any other type. However, this one is a rarity: by someone who realized he had incorrectly assigned himself this label.


It was a refreshing read.

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I agree!


I'm so sick of hearing guys and girls moaning about "no one likes me because i'm too nice"




a good friend of mine.. not an enotaloner... always uses this as his excuse... it bores me to tears and I told him that... It was because he was interested in me and i was not interested in me he kept saying, " you don't like me because I'm a nice guy and nice guys always end up with no one"


it has nothing to do with being nice or not... it has more to do with the above-mentioned-wallowing-in-misery attitude!

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I'm new here, but this is my perspective on the whole "nice guy" thing.


I'm the most extreme introvert I know. That's okay because that's who I am and I'm comfortable telling people that. I don't like talking to people and I don't like people talking to me. I guess I'm not very nice, but I happen to have a very healthy amount of confidence and independence, almost to the point where I simply don't need people anymore. I happen to be in a serious relationship with the nicest, most extraverted girl I've ever met. We are really good together. She gives me validation but I have never needed it. I'm nice to her, most of the time, and I give her what she needs. I'm downright mean to people sometimes but she's very accepting of that. I happen to be a preschool teacher, so I probably use up all my niceness there with little left over for the rest of the world.


I think guys confuse niceness for changing for a girl. She wants you for who you are and really doesn't want you to turn your life upside down for her. I imagine that would make a girl feel guilty. I sure know that if my girlfriend turned her life around just for me I would feel guilty. I want her to have her own life while I have my own. I do bring her gifts and I do try to impress her, but not to the point where I'm becoming someone else for her. I just use my natural talents to win her over and it works. She impresses me, too, so it goes both ways.


I really don't think that makes much sense but I'll post it anyway for you to pick apart.

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I just came accross this by chance, this sounds just like me, in my last post I was just saying I thought I had been 'too nice', but I think you might have hit the nail on the head, it's not that I was too nice, it was exactly what you said, I lost my identity, she became my life and I tried to fit in with her, always asking for reassurance. If only I'd read this before!, I still don't know the real reasons for my breakup, but there may be something in this.

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This is dead on accurate. One of my best friends was having similar issues and I pointed alot of these things out to him. He acknowledged the problem and started working with it. I was amazed that no one had said it to him before. Very nice thread, I'm sure it will give some direction to some of the "Nice Guys" on ENA.

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Good question and I probably should have put some examples in my initial thread. So here are a few.


In relationships

- Constantly asking if she is ok or happy with your relationship.

- Fishing for compliments in any form, either saying something negative about yourself in hopes that she'll disagree or saying something possitive in hopes that she'll agree.

- Bringing gifts for the sole porpose of making her happier with you.

- Asking her if it's ok to do things that you would normally do, some guys will do this in a less direct form such as "I'm going to go out with my friends" while waiting for her to say it's ok.

- Constantly complimenting her, saying the same things over and over again.


In general

- Fear or hatred of being alone

- Wanting everyone to like you

- Talking yourself up a good bit in hopes of earning respect.

- Uncomfortable telling people no or setting personal boundries.


Don't get me wrong, some of these things are normal and healthy, it's just that the "nice guys" will live by them and do them constantly. If you keep asking your girlfriend if it's ok for you to live your life, she can't respect you.

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Getting past the need for validation from others.


First and foremost, learn that you can always count on yourself to be there. As odd as this may sound, if you ever feel needy or that you need validation, go take some time to yourself. Figure out what you need or want to hear, think about why you want to hear it and realize that you don't need other people's approval, just your own.


From there, here are a few other steps to get out of this rut quickly.


1. Start going to the gym, doing cardio will have a huge effect on your overall happiness and confidence. Lifting some weights and getting stronger can't hurt either.


2. Make at least one night a week for your friends, I personally have a rule that I won't get drunk with out my girlfriend around and she does the same. But make time for your friends, if it's going out to the bar, watching the game, or playing some videogames... Either way, DON"T STOP BEING A MAN!!!


3. Do some things by yourself that you enjoy by yourself, everyone needs a little time to reflect on things and relax.


Most importantly,


Make sure that you have some direction in your life, make a plan on where you want to be a few years down the road if you haven't already. Make your own goals and make sure you accomplish them. If you don't have personal hobbies, get a few. Alot of the need for validation comes from people not being happy with their life or feeling like they're missing something so they try to form their identity around a relationship. A relationship should be a part of your identity but not your entire identity, hope this helps.



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Getting past the need for external validations: That's why I never post in age-gap anymore asking any questions. I'm just going to do whatever I do and I don't need others validation, permission, or approval. If a 23 to 26 year old woman and I like each other (ages of likley candidates I know), then that's our business. I don't need to gather approval from anyone locally or online. If any 3rd party doesn't like it, to bad. All that matters is myself and herself.


See, that's an example of me learning not to seek external validation anymore. I now have internal validation from myself, which is the root of self confidence, IMO. That makes me less passive and more assertive.


Isn't that ^ one example of what the OP is talking about?


As far as the guy absorbing himself in the woman, I agree that some women don't like that. However, some women do like it. Some love it. So I don't think that's a universal thing. I think it depends on the woman. I think that if the guy is assertive with others, she might respect him and be fine with him being mushier with her. I hope so because I'm assertive with others and mushy with her. That's me and I really don't think I need to change that, as long as I'm assertive to others, I think she'll respect me, even if I am a sappy, mushy, love sick puppy with her. Well maybe. It all depends on the woman.


I agree that being assertive with 3rd parties is necessary, but I don't agree that being assertive with the woman is necessary. I think being assertive with her depends on her and her likes. I'm not a total push over to a woman, but 2/3 I am. I know women who like me fine that way, as long as I have some back bone with 3rd party outsiders, which I do.

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That is definitely one of the things I'm talking about but that falls more under general validation and seeking it from society rather than seeking it from a relationship... Chances are pretty good though that if you're doing it in everyday life, you're also doing it in relationships. I think for some people that mindset comes with time and experience (your case) though I don't think you ever really had a serious problem with it, some people have a problem, recognize it, and fix it (What I'm talking about and trying to help with) and some people have a problem and spend life feeling sorry for themselves (what I'm trying to stop). I'm glad to hear you came to that conclusion though, in my oppinion, personal growth is what life is all about. Later



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My brother-in-law is a more extreme example of what I was talking about than what I am.


If he's in a bar without my sister present, he's capable, both physically and mentally, of beating up any bully in the bar. He's Mexican and he used to go to white biker bars with his friends on purpose. They knew full well the bikers would try to bully them, or make them leave. Then the barfight fight would be on. Barfighting was his hobby as a single man. Skilled construction work (truss building) is his profession. My brother in law fears no man and has never lost a fight in his life. He's not a bully, but he sure likes beating bullies up.


However, my sister won't allow him to go into a bar anymore, unless it's an upscale one where trouble is not likely and she's with him. Since dating her and later marrying her (married for 3 years now) he no longer goes into rough bars at all. He also avoids fights now because he knows my sister would not approve. He has not been in a single fight since they started dating. That's 5 years now of no fighting just because he wants to please her and he wants her approval.


My point is this: This guy has more stones than most men, yet he's a total creampuff pushover to my sister. My sister is clearly wearing most of the pants in the family and he's fine with that. In his dealings with her, he's a rather passive, "absorbed in his woman" guy. Yet he's not a wussy by any means.


I knew another guy who was a friend of mine in college. He was also very much absorbed in his GF and she was the boss as anyone could see. However, he had a personal policy that any guy who called him p-whipped got an automatic punch in the nose on the spot.


Now those two guys above are more extreme examples than I am, but my point is the same. Just because a guy is passive with his woman, does not necessarily mean he's passive to the world. That's two different things.


I think the OP is valid with regard to a man being overly passive to the world. However, with regard to him being overly passive to his woman, that really depends on the woman. Some women don't like that, some don't mind, and some women like a guy like that, as long as he has some assertiveness to the world.


I think the OP might be correct as a general rule, but there are exceptions.

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If a guy is overly passive to the world, that is like a problem for him.


If he's passive with his woman, that may or may not be a problem. It depends on the woman, and also other things like - can she still respect him? If he's got some assertiveness to others, then mabye she respects him for that no matter how mushy he is with her.


Those are my opinions are observations. I'm not disagreeing with the OP, except to say that there might be some exceptions, or extenuationg circumstances. However, as a general rule, the OP is correct and I agree in most cases.

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Sure, there are lots of exceptions if you apply these statements to everyone. But if you only apply these to man complaining that woman don't want to be with them because they are nice, there are suddenly almost zero exceptions. I'm guessing your friend and brother-in-law have never made remarks like those stated above and are thereforeeee not the target audience.



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in my oppinion, personal growth is what life is all about.


Again, your views are refreshing. Because I'll be brutally honest. I've been coming to eNotalone for almost three years and the absolute hardest people to get through to here are the ones who tag themselves as "nice" guys and girls. They refuse to look inward into why they have little success at relationships. It's always, ALWAYS that girls just like jerks, or guys like (rhymes with witches). In other words, for some reason, it's easier for them to conclude with a sweeping, EXTERNAL generalization, rather than looking inward and acknowledging their own patterns. They insist they're just "too nice."


The thing is, though...a lot of 'em ain't so nice. In fact, they typically have a lot of bottled up hostility and resentment inside them towards the opposite sex.


So my question is...how'd you break out of that? What was the turning point for you?

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Sure, there are lots of exceptions if you apply these statements to everyone. But if you only apply these to man complaining that woman don't want to be with them because they are nice, there are suddenly almost zero exceptions. I'm guessing your friend and brother-in-law have never made remarks like those stated above and are thereforeeee not the target audience.-AG


True. You have a vaild point there. They never complain about anything. Also, you won't hear me complaining much, if ever, about women not liking me 'cause I'm to nice. Women do like me, well many do. However, me following up on their like is another matter, and that lack of follow-up is where my deficiencies exist, though I've been improving.


So ya, you're correct. Your observations are accurate for those guys who complain about being rejected for being to nice. OK. You're right.

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I am very glad you asked that question. It's a Friday night and I'm about to head out as I hope everyone else well be so I'll make this brief and elaborate later. The key to letting go of the hostility is understanding the word "accountability". The truth is the root cause of every single nice guys problems is not accepting it and rather choosing denial as an alternative. The sooner we start holding our selves accountable for our actions the sooner we can improve as people. It's a problem for nice guys but it's also a problem for the jerks and the cheaters. If everyone went into life knowing that they're going to hold themselves accountable and give the world the flat out honest truth, society as a whole would be a better place. If you're going to cheat but go into it knowing that you're going to hold yourself accountable and tell your SO rather than denying it, how likely are you to cheat? If you keep having the same problem over and over again ("nice guys" getting labeled as friends) with differant girls, are they really the problem? Take a little on accountability for the situation and use it as an opportunity to evolve into something better.


That's the answer scout... learning to hold myself accountable. Being honest and not blaming my problems on other people... Instead, just using my energy on fixing them.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Why we hate *Nice Men* and Love Bad Guys?


Nice sweet guys are ugly! They haven't the air of sensuality about them that bad guys do, because they just haven't had lives.


Nice sweet guys think women are a 'special species' from another planet.


Nice sweet guys suffocate their girlfriends, expecting them to be their lovers, mother, sister, princess, china doll, and the Goddess who brings up the sun in their mornings. They also expect their girlfriends to be their best buddy, because 'real' guys won't have anything to do with the geeks!


Nice sweet guys sit there entranced by their girlfriends as the girlfriend carries on the whole conversation by themselves. Nice guys haven't lived so they have nothing to add to the conversation. Nice guys bore women to death.


Nice sweet guys stare at their girlfriends in total worship awe. Women find it difficult to eat when they are being visually consumed by a staring, mindless dope.


Nice guys quickly look at you when they do a social blunder (such as fart) to see if you caught it. Who cares!


Nice guys pretend to be 'just our friend' and then go home and fantasize about us mothering their 'nice guy' kids.


Nice guys have no real life or interest of their own. They sit around and dream of getting a girlfriend to fill their empty lives.


Nice guys feel so undeserving of 'awesome you' that they make you feel that you have, most assuredly, picked a real loser.


Nice guys think women are porcelain goddesses. Women don't want to have to keep living up to a surreal image. If you belch in front of us we won't break!


Nice guys think that if a woman doesn't want to have anything to do with their boring, empty shell of manlihood, they're stupid who would rather be with a jerk that beats them. Yep, this is every woman's dream.


Nice guys are too STUPID to figure out that woman don't want to be the leader on the dance floor.


Nice guys wear tucked in golf shirts and make a clean, straight part in their hair, exactly two-inches above their left ear. This really turns woman on. So sexy! Why can't Fabio and Brad Pitt take fashion and grooming lessons from nice guys?


Nice guys sit there like passive puppies, waiting for their girl to make all the moves. This is because woman love to feel undesirable.


Nice guys can fool our parents. They are often quoted by the respected elder as being kind, loving, committed. Translation: Gay


Nice guys suck because you can't complain about them to your friends.


Dating a nice guy is like dating yourself. If you like Broccoli, he likes Broccoli. If you hate Jay Leno, he hates Jay Leno. If you order a Shirley Temple, he orders a Shirley Temple. If you are pro capital punishment, he is pro capital punishment. If you think Austin Powers was disgusting he thinks Austin Powers was disgusting. If you prefer Kotex over Tampax...


Nice guys eventually turn into jerks too, so why not just date a jerk right from the start and skip all that insecurity stage?


Nice guys laugh at your jokes...before you've even reached the punchline.


Nice guys quickly get emotionally attached. Sucking the life of you.


Nice guys eagerly show affection. Who can appreciate that of which they didn't have to work for?


Nice guys are gentle, tender, pedal-soft lovers. Woman love this...hopefully her nice guy will wake her up to let her know that he is coming. "I'm not hurting you now, am I hon.?"


Nice guys will never, ever eagerly lust and devour your hot, throbbing body or steamy, sweetened inner core. Nice guys can't hear your body screaming, "hold me, touch me, RAVISH me! ME NOW!!!"


Hopefully, your nice guy will eventually turn into a jerk and cheat on you (so someone else can endure his lack of lovemaking skills).


Nice guys will make you feel guilty if you spend a minute anywhere but with them.


Nice guys will buy you flowers. Then ask you all evening long if you liked them.


Nice guys will never actually tell their girlfriends when they don't like what she's doing. Instead, he will get mad about it six months later.


Nice guys are hideously insecure. Nice guys never do for you anything for the simple sake of giving. Everything they do for their girlfriends are like stock investments. The stock is up at Acceptance and Approval. Each gift he gives you, or loving gesture he shows you, is really a guaranteed down payment toward a future of him clinging to you like a drowning man to a life-saver.


Nice guys are confused about romance. They either go overboard and bring a dozen roses to a "lets go for a walk in the park" date...or...they are so unsuave and unsure of themselves that they hang around you, pretending to be your friend. Yep, I just love an unconfident, self-doubting man.


Nice guys are so desperate to please that they have no identity of their own. Ask a nice guy his thoughts on anything. Guess what? He doesn't have any!


Nice guys are easily used. I just love a man I have no respect for.


Nice guys suffer from the "Night in Shining Armor" syndrome. They pick out the sleaziest, "hard luck" cases to rescue. Moral of the story? Wear condoms while sleeping thru the sex act with your nice guy.


Nice guys are so eager to please that they rarely speak up when something bothers them. Thus, they can make their girlfriends feel guilty when they say, "Everything I did, I did for you".


Nice guys truly think that they are making their girlfriends happy by sacrificing their own life, desires, wants, needs, opinions, and identities to that of their girlfriends. They can then claim that "no one will ever love you as much as I do". Translation: "You are such a be grateful I'm willing to put up with you and love you anyway."


Nice guys make you their Life, their only source of happiness. Woman love this burden placed on them.


Nice Guys really don't like themselves. Insecurity is not sexy, it is suffocating, clinging and obsessive. Issues with nice men are unbearable. Issues with jerks are workable.


Nice Guys are terrified of rejection. Bad boys don't care!


We will take a jerk any day of the week. We pray that nice guys drop dead.


Isn't that special?


Men will be nice when women are attracted to nice guys?

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Nice guys are respectful, not idiotic! Just because someone's nice doesn't mean they can't be a tease or have fun.


Change nice with needy, insecure or anti-social and you might be on to something.


Nice guys have no real life or interest of their own. They sit around and dream of getting a girlfriend to fill their empty lives.

What a load of garbage. I doubt just because someone is nice means they have a personality disorder or lack any sort of a backbone.


Nice doesn't always equal needy, insecure wuss.

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I just think too often the term "Nice" guy is misworded. For example, JamesJ30t raises some good observations, but instead of calling them "nice guys" I would call them "passive, have no identity of their own" guys.


My boyfriend truly is a nice guy in the real sense - he's kind, considerate, and has integrity. However, he also has a backbone and is not a pushover.

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The reason these guys consider themselves to be nice is because they

generally like the women they are after. They do not just want to get

in the woman's pants. Why would a guy waste his time being friends

with a woman just to get in her pants that's stupid? There were women

that were interested but I did not feel the same way so passed them but

as to not use them for sex. Women want to change the definition of

nice guys to insecure, doormat etc to justify not liking men that generally

care for them so they do not have to feel guilty. Leave the definition

of the term as is so that the nice guys can help themselves.

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