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Intimacy lost, ignored problem, may end in divorce...

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Hello all,

A little background. Both my wife and I are in our late twenties and have been married roughly a year and a half. We've been together for about four years and we both feel we have changed a lot. We started having intimacy issues before we were even married due to a lot of factors. It started with a tragedy in her family that left her very sad (still understandably sad to this day). I was there for her and understood how she would just not feel like being intimate. Over time, however, when we finally did try again I was so nervous that I started to have my own issues in bed. Since that point we ignored the issue and just stopped trying altogether.


The problem is we have now lost a huge part of our marriage. To be clear I love my wife and am attracted to her in every way. I love the way she makes me feel when I wake up, and I love being with her when we go to sleep. I love the way her body looks, and I feel that tingle (or at least did when we were still hugging/kissing, etc.) when I hold her in my arms. Since talking about the problem she won't even kiss me fully on the lips.


After we got together I feel I did change a lot of my life for the worse. (Gradually of course.) It started with me not working out anymore, which has dramatically increased how depressed I feel all the time. Additionally I have pretty much centered all of my happiness around being with her. I realize that we do EVERYTHING together, and although this isn't necessarily bad I don't have a life outside of her. Finally, I feel I haven't shown her how much I truly care about her and us. It's the little simple things like taking shared responsibility in housework, doing small things to show her I care, and listening to her. I'm not saying I cut these things out all together, but I know my actions have not represented my true feelings towards her.


Now that is half of the problem. The other half is of course how she has changed. I can't say I totally understand what is going on in her head, but there are several things I do know. I feel that she is no longer attracted to me. I honestly can't blame her, physically I look fine, but emotionally I have been less than attractive. After finally addressing the problem we can't even fully hug and kiss directly on the lips. I try, and I feel the emotion not being returned. She says that she loves me, and I do feel that. I know that she wouldn't be trying at all if there wasn't love there. The thing is she says just because we love each other, things may not work out. This breaks my heart. I have been trying to get to a place where she is. That place is, "If things do not work out I will be ok."


Although I know I will be ok, as life goes on, I don't want to just be "ok." I want my wife, I love her, I want to be the person I was when I first met her. I am taking steps to do that, and am moving slowly. My main objective at the moment is to learn to be happy with myself as a person. At the same time, I want to give her space to figure out her own demons. Here is the problem, I feel that I am making major progress except I always want to be with her. I WANT her to go out and be with her friends, and figure out how she really feels about me. I WANT to go out and be with the few friends I have and figure out the same. It's much easier said than done.


We are planning on going to see a therapist after Christmas, as we don't currently have the money. I think it will be helpful in at least each of our own issues. Of course I am hopeful that we will discover each of our root problems and possibly it will help us as a couple. I am scared, of course, that even with help we won't be able to find that special intimate attraction that MUST exist in a marriage. There is my main heartbreak. I feel in my heart that attraction. I want to sit together and just hold her. I want to make love to my wife without my own insecurity causing problems. I want to be with her for the rest of my life. I know these things and I admittedly don't know anything about therapy, but I fear that it can't help in this area. (I guess if we were fighting all the time, or something I would "get it")


In summary:

I am scared, heartbroken, sick, but ever hopeful. I know that what we have is worth saving, and am willing to take the risk that it won't work. I am not trying to become some new "super me" that won't last, but rather just be myself. I hope that being myself, the person my wife fell in love with, and her doing the same will bring us closer. Right now, I just feel sad and alone. I don't have a lot of friends, and unfortunately most are in their own relationships.


Any thoughts, comments, or just encouragement will be read gratefully. Thanks for listening all.

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delarocha, There are many of us here just like you - even though it sounds corny you are among friends.


I'm sorry you've found such sadness in your relationship of late but there is hope and from what youve said I think you can find everything your looking for in your current relationship if your both willing to work on things. If you haven't already done so, I'd like to suggest picking up a book or two that might you feel fits your situation. Some of the things your feeling are perfectly normal and not necessarily the sign of a bad marriage, some are not.


There is a lot to be said for romantic love (the component that both you and your wife appear to be struggling with) but its not the foundation of the marriage nor should a marraige necessarily be a means to that end. Not that you shouldn't strive to find/hold on to it, but rather its not good to measure the quality of your marriage based on it. It sounds like you love your wife very much and the fact you want to be with her is great. I don't know if its a good or bad idea that you spend so much time with her....but a therapist can give you some instruction as to what the most effective stance to take will be.


No matter what, take care of yourself and don't get too down. Try to keep a positive outlook and follow through on the counseling.

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It might be that the tragic event really affected her and she is in a mild depression? It's hard to feel in the mood or very affectionate when you are depressed.


I think it's wonderful that you've taken this opportunity to reassess your life and have decided to take steps to make some changes. It will only help your marriage if things work out. Keep at it!


It's a good sign that she has agreed to go to counseling with you. I hope you guys work out the issues. I haven't been married yet, but I've often heard that the first few years of marriage can be the toughest.


Best of luck!

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I know all about your story. You want to be yourself and be known. Anxiety is killing you inside and it definitely interacts with the way you feel attached to your wife. Your wife has a set of issues as well. I could try and diagnose your relationship as it is a common one. My wife and I had something similar. Had I not cut her with 1,000 cuts she would not have stabed our marriage fatally twice, hence me being on the divorce board. I guess I have two suggestions.


1). Recommit yourselves to one another. This may be for one month, three or more.


2). The therapist WILL work. This is the type of thing that they do. Your anxiety has a path, it is manifesting itself with your relationship with your wife. If you and her want your friendship to turn around back into a "marriage" then therapy WILL work. If you have already convinced yourself that therapy will not work and that you are too far gone, Then you are in a self-fulfilled prophecy. Hence see suggestion 1.


3). Check your and your wife's insurance policy/policies, Some don't cover marriage counseling, but they do cover psychiatric services for sexual disfunction. Sex is concidered to be a "major life activity." Problems can affect your mental as well as physical health. It may be humiliating to go to a doctor to be referred to a mental health specialist, but it will be worth it.


4). Check out this website, This really WOWed me to what was going on in my relationship, but it ended up being too little to late, I found it between the first and second stabs.


link removed


Best Marriage book I can recommend is link removed


I read about 5 marriage books and 6 or 7 sex books while in Iraq. Out of all that, This one really really stuck out. I gave it to my mom and brother for Christmas.


If you have an interest after previewing the Attachement in Relationships I can refer you to a book on that as well. It has made a huge difference in my personal relationship with myself to make some of these connections.


I'd say Best of Luck, but that has been said already.


So I'm going to say this, feel deep into the past, feel your greatest love for your wife, the most emotional kind of love. Dwell on this, and give her a long hug, In your mind transfer this emotional kind of love as if you were trying to implant this feeling into her mind. Hug until both of you are relaxed. Let your anxiety go, this hug is not about sex, it is about connecting.


Those are my final comments...

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ok, i think everyone will get a chuckle out of this


i consider myself a pretty decent looking guy, and when i am in shape and taking care of myself it shows in my walk and talk and attitude and i am much more relaxed, understand and ki take pride in knowing that i am attractive to my patrner - i want her to also see me as a burning hunk of chunk of love - that's normal


now, when my ex left me 3 years ago, her lasting impression of me was 7 months of stinky body, bad breathe, rubbered skin, bathrobe wearing, egg salad tooting man


anyone turned on yet?


of course not


and there is the very reason i was 'popping u' occasionaly so she could see me in actual street clothes and looking good because when u are not talking u gotta work the visual man


i have gone thru a low point but i am commited to a certain path and life and lifestyle. hence, registering at good life gym this weekend, getting out and getting fresh air, i would like to quit smoking and would prefer dating non-smokers,


so, don't blame the ex if she is currently not 'turned on' - maybe the image she has right now is not so flatteringt


the image i have of her is her in comfies, blowdrying her hair forever and hairy legs and eating some ice cream - that's sexy too ya know - lol


ok...i have to go and get some sleep - workies comes early


thank u everyone for ignoring my many posts today - lol



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Thanks for the reply. You are right, at the moment I am filled with anxiety, fear, sadness, etc. It is so hard letting go of this life that I had planned. The weird thing is right now my wife and I are getting along better than ever. I am in this process of trying to do enough to show her I care, while at the same time just being myself. (Not doing too much, being fake, etc.) I am all about trying to find peace with myself and be the loving caring person I feel that I am inside. It makes me feel good to be so open about myself and to progress even a little more each day.


I think constantly about the love I have for my wife and it makes me want to give her that hug. The closest I have gotten was rubbing her head/hair while she wasn't feeling well. She had her eyes closed while I just say on the edge of the couch next to her and rubbed her hair back. On one hand I felt so close to her and it felt good to have that contact. On the other hand, I felt far away like I could have been anyone rubbing her head. She has told me that she won't always say "I love you " back because words are easy to throw around. I try to hug her and pull her close to me, but can feel her keeping her distance and pulling away. I don't know if she truly feels nothing for me, or if she is guarding her heart, or if it's something else. I am so confused and sad, but amazingly not angry. I don't blame her at all, and am desperately trying not to blame myself.


Is this a wall that can be broken down? How can she not want to say she loves me back? I understand she may be trying to figure out if she does in fact love me (just a guess), which rips me in two. I would give this woman anything to make her happy, including being out of my life if that's what she really wants. However, I KNOW I don't want her out of my life. Do I have to learn to not love my wife in the meantime? Each passing day I feel more and more "ok", but I don't WANT to make my heart feel less for her. I know for a fact I could be apart from her and my heart will not love her any less.


I am hopeful that a therapist will help. I guess at this point it feels a bit like voodoo, as I don't understand the process at all. I don't know if as each day passes my wife is falling more and more out of love with me... OR is falling more and more in love with me... Or I suppose staying exactly the same. We've had a few really great moments of just laughing or watching tv, etc... (from separate furniture).. I know we may not be ready for that big hug you talked about, but I wish we were.


Should I just not read so much into her lack of desiring physical contact? (Hugging, holding hands, simple things...)


Should I not read so much into her not always wanting to say "I love you"?


Should I let the feelings in my heart fade some? (I can't learn to not love her.)


For the record, I am fairly relaxed around her and in general. I am beginning to feel human again, and am beginning to like how I treat complete strangers. (Weird side effect, I have become REALLY nice to people somehow...)

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You are in a tough predicament. Be aware you can self distruct. She may be subconsciously giving you space so that you will self distruct. With your anxiety, she knows how to push you over the limit. I think it is OK that she not say I love you all the time, in fact she should be able to say that she Hates you sometimes. And the fact that she doesn't express what she hates and just withdraws, feeds your anxiety, Because you sort of know what she likes, but you have no idea what she hates.


Self reflection is an awesome tool. I have been much peppier myself, however I self distructed our marriage. You guys have an opportunity, how do you know if you are commited or not. You have to see the edge coming. You have to know that you two are so far apart and by some miracle the gap was closed. Realize her withdrawal is feeding your protests and turning them into resentment. Express to her, when you do not feel very lovable. But don't express to her in a way that is like "I want you to love me right now." When you don't feel lovable, you cannot depend on her, she is only human, you have to self soothe. Time will tell with attunement to where you both are in sych out of synch in synch out of synch. The therapy WILL work, but she has to be willing to let it work. The fact that she is willing to go with you is a good sign, but the key is to not self-distruct between now and then.


Take Care,



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Well, it's funny you mention self destruction. Something very cool happened for my wife and while I was coming home from work I thought, "I know, I will get her some flowers to just say congrats." So, I give her the flowers, she seemed touched and gave me one of those half hugs. Although I didn't want to, my face was immediately disappointed. This in turn made her mad, and sad about the flowers, because she felt I was giving them to her not because of her accomplishment, but rather because I was expecting a reaction from her. I was immediately apologizing and admitting that maybe subconsciously I was in fact doing that, but didn't mean it. She was crying and I felt just awful. She told me to just go to the gym, so I did.


After the gym I called my brother (whom I am very close with) and talked out the whole thing. I was hysterical, crying, feeling sad, etc. I came to a very important realization. I DID get those flowers so I could get a reaction. I didn't THINK I did, but looking back I just feel stupid. More importantly I realized something about myself. I have been telling myself I can make myself happy, I can understand my depression and overcome, I can do this with the help of my wife. And now the main problem... I can't do this alone, and I can't depend on my wife (who is ALSO hurting right now) to be my counselor. I need help. I wake up sad, I go to sleep sad, I am finding I cannot function at work, I am not sleeping well, and all these things have been happening for longer than our issues have been out on the table. I have KNOWN I need to love myself, and thought I could do it alone, but I just need professional help.



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So, I know I am replying to my own thread. I guess my thoughts have been thrown down with time stamps and I feel the need to kind of keep a running log. I know there are no quick answers. I know I need someone to talk to, but for this moment in time this forum is all that I have.


Anyway, I've gone through a LOT of thinking, sadness, pain, and just being alone in my thoughts. Every time I walk into a room with a mirror I look at myself and feel sad. In my last post I described how I was upset over something stupid I had done. Since that post I have had the best few days to date. I think I finally have accepted things the way they currently are. It's not that I have given up, but I have let go of a lot of the guilt (some anyway) and feeling that I MUST hang on and try everything within my power to save this relationship.


At this point I tell myself every time I feel down that I WANT to be happy, and only I can do that. I try not to let myself thing in terms of "what is good for the relationship" and "what can I do to improve myself so that it saves the relationship"; but rather I am starting (I hope) to improve myself for myself. I still have not contacted a professional to talk to as it seems VERY hard to find someone during this time of the year. I know this is something I need to do sooner than later, as my high times (these past few days) are starting to be shadowed by that impending low feeling.


Last night I wanted to touch my wifes back in bed. She told me she didn't really feel like having her back rubbed. I understand and just rolled over and went to sleep. We used to (a few weeks ago even) sleep very close with legs touching, intertwined, etc. I miss that, I miss the hugs, I miss the kisses, I miss telling each other that we love each other. I have forced myself to not say these things. I am trying to give my wife space and time to think and feel. I am trying to be happy for myself, yes... but also, I realize my sadness (when exposed) only pushes her further away. She is drained and doesn't even seem to be trying anything at this point. However, I feel at this point I shouldn't push. I know we can't "fix" anything and am trying to use this time to work on myself.


I find myself sad every time a diamond commercial or a Christmas commercial comes on TV. I used to be a very emotionally closed person, and at some point decided not to be that way. I feel I have opened the flood gates and am now completely overwhelmed with emotion.


I guess with my determination to be happy, and the progress I am making with myself there is this DEEP longing for the woman I love. She kind of hinted that I should step back and see how I really feel. "Am I in love with her or am I in love with the IDEA of being in love.", as she puts it. The further I step away the more I realize one simple fact. I love her. In a weird sense I want to just shut it off, but will never be able to nor do I REALLY want to. However, I don't know what to do next. Every step I make feels GREAT, and then it's followed by this feeling of being lost. How do you show someone how much you love them when you're not sure they want to be showed. How do you hold your heart back when it wants to explode with feelings, thoughts, and hopes.


Please heart... let me just live life... back off for a while!...

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Nothing wrong with keeping your forum alive, I'm thinking of giving an update in my own. I read your above comments, and I totally know where you are at right now. I'm just letting you know where the traps are.


Best few days, since the post, this is the healthy part of internalization. You had an alternate motive for the flowers. But now you realized that. You have internalized that. You have grieved the loss of the response you expected. Letting go of "Save it at all costs" can be a healthy choice. Realize that both of you are feeding it. There is nothing you can do but self reflect. Judge yourself, think of the pain it caused her to know that you didn't really care about her accomplishement. What can you do to repair that attempt. I can give you a suggestion, but you have to come up with one from your heart. I'll go into an example of my own later this week about discussing my wifes response to my dog earning his CGC certificate. Guilt, and Shame, they terrorize us and make us feel small and belittled, make us feel worthless and unlovable, I'd say that you need not rid yourself of some of the guilt, you need to find a way to rid yourself of the guilt that pertains to this incident, figure out how it relates to the guilt you feel with say an interaction with your parents. Painful interactions prey on our childhood hurts and feelings. We feel guilty for feeling the way we do, because we realize that it is immature and childish, but we have no idea where it comes from until we self-reflect. From there we can try to pair up situations where this childish response happens and choose a different path.


To summarize, take some time to get to know you. To see your internal conflict and evil. To accept that it exists and to see the turmoil it brings. It is so hard to do things without an expectation of others especially when you are Anxious-Fearful. Anxious about getting the response you want, but Fearful that it will confirm your inner child being harmed. We set ourselves up and she sets herself up the same way. Your wife, could have said you know what I know that the reason you got the flowers was to get a response, this hurts me, but I respect your tenacity... thanful that you even concidered that I have had an accomplishment. Her accomplishment may not even mean that much to her, but she has paraded it to you to get you to stumble and prove to her that you are week and she has the upper hand. You want her to switch from being avoidant, and she wants you to switch from being Anxious. But both have to self-reflect to get anywhere. It starts by one person self reflecting first, recognizing the evil and love in them. The dependency and the roots of that need. You put so much pressure on the response, why did you do that you should ask yourself, Was it to prove that she is the rejector, that she is the evil one, that despite all the good things that you could do for her she still makes you out to be the bad guy, and well, now you really feel that way. Why does she always make you feel like the bad guy. How does every conversation turn around to be about me. Fiddle with these questions in your head, figure out how to know when you are in the moment and say. "I'm hurt by that, I recognize that I have some faults, and I blame you for them, but I'm hurt because you can expose them better than anyone else." "I truly wish I were more... but part of this process is me facing my inner demons." "I could drag you through my pain, but I need to process my pain for me; just like I need to stand up for me, assuring that I'm not the hurt one, I'm not the bad one." There is some goodness and love in me and it is this love that wants to get out, but love can only come out after the hurt is felt internalized. Once internalized and self-reflected, only then can you empathize with the target of your murderous afflictions to feel their pain from it and to viscerally apologize. Internalize=Forgiveness of yourself/ a Knowledge of the aspects of your inner child... Apology=Intimacy/Owning Up to who you are.


I understand the need to Want to feel happy when you are sad. But here is the thing. Internalize the sadness. Yes it could make you feel more sadness, but you can FEEL it, until you FEEL your sadness you will be unable to FEEL your happiness. because why you are sad you are mitigating the feelings of wanting to FEEL happy. Keep it in the back of your mind there will be happy times and sad times. The deeper the low is the higher the high is with some variabilty of course. How do you FEEL loved, you feel loved by FEELing hated. You hate you wife for withdrawing from you and you are grieving the loss of those intertwined days. I don't know if you read the posts on the other board about how I self distructed, but My wife and I where having a "good" day and I read more into it then should have been. I led myself up to an expectation of me putting a sexual whallop on her for putting me through the last few weeks. Well, it didn't pan out. I asked her permission to masterbate in the same bed with her. She said OK and I enjoyed myself, much to her anguish and dissaproval. When I climaxed I clutched her and to her she felt violated / sexually assaulted. She was tremendously hurt. When we arrived home from our vacation at my brothers we spent one more night in the same bed and she went out of town. I discovered, who am I kidding myself that I can sleep in the same bed with the woman I love and not want to touch her, the resentment became so intense, that I became no longer loving, I became vengeful and enticed thoughts of raping my wife. Getting what was rightfully mine that she was holding out on. As I truly felt these thoughts and sublimated them through masterbation. I cried for a while in the agony of how I could love a woman so much, yet hate her with an intense enough rage to consider raping her. The goodness and evilness of humanity peirced my soul and I was able to internalize that both the good and the evil are in the same pot. I can love her with the same intensity of rage. I never verbalized the rape thoughts, but when she came back from her work-trip I had moved out. I had crossed the line on more than one front, the lies, the assault, That I had repulsed her in such a way that she has made up her mind. So, I guess is what I'm trying to say, is it might be better to realize the idea of "Who am I kidding myself to sleep next to the woman I love without wanting to have my hands on her." Discuss it with her. You can use my example as seeing those tendencies in yourself if you can relate. Tell her, that you fear your pent up rage and resentment for what we are going through and are afraid of the way it will get expressed. A counselor can help you sort through these things. Yes the holidays will be tough, but try and schedule in advance like the first week in January instead. This way you have an appointment and a goal. To reflect on yourself until you go. To write your emotions and feelings and have a framework to make the professional fully attuned to the complexity of what you are going through. There is so much going on that to speak of it in one session you will barely tell her your name and when you got married and some minor details about your week. That first session doesn't even put a dent into it, the second one puts a scratch, and the more open you can be prior to the scratch session the deeper that scratch will be (for the panful good of course).


I know what you mean by forcing yourself not to say these things about what you miss. I'm torn on what to say. I ended up saying them and I think she resented me more for it, but in a way, I felt like I had let her know the agony that I was in. The turmoil. You are grieving the loss of those activities, you will go through the shock, why me, ambivalence (I can get it back, no I can't, do I want it back, of course I do, no I don't), anger(She's friggen holding out on me. Does she want me to cheat on her.) Truth is, yes she wants you to do something so atrocious that it seals the deal for her. That she can say I'm leaving you because you "lied" "sexually assaulted" "abandoned" "cheated" etc... It gives her a reason to make the choice that she wants in the moment. Your sadness pushes her away, but you need to express how you have discovered how intensely your actions have hurt her. That you will express this not in a blaming way, but in a loving and caring. I know these times are incredibly difficult for us, and I have learned some of the ways I have hurt you. It pains me immensely to realize this wholloping that I have dished out to you. I can't change the past, and I want to express how deeply I know you are hurting because of me and my actions. This is not blaming yourself, it is internalizing it, and by feeling the pain, you forgive and repair.


Don't watch TV, order a book. Figure yourself out, Self Reflect. Define what the idea of being in love is. because it is really letting yourself be known for who you are. Letting the other person into the things that really hurt, the things you know they can exploit with a furious stabbing. Forgiving yourself for harboring resentment for not expressing them or being true to yourself, but also not blaming them for keeping you from sharing.


I think showing love is in a way confessing your resentment, showing your hurts. It has nothing to do with sex and touch, but everything to do with empathy and expressing your true self. To know and embrace that you love her DEEPLY, but you also hate her DEEPLY as well.

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mike_chppr, first of all I wanted to thank you. I have in fact followed your posts and recognize the name. I have read your story cover to cover, and although different in a lot of ways, I think we do share some of the same feelings. Thank you for listening, thank you for responding honestly, thank you for just being there for someone you don't even know. I know a lot of people probably come into this forum when at their worst, and need someone to listen. I certainly felt that I had nobody in my real (non internet) life that could listen. Of course, we find people that do listen, but it helps having as many perspectives as possible (In my opinion anyway).


So, I wake today feeling one step closer to knowing my true self (I feel the need to say that to myself everyday, even if it's only the most minor of improvements) and am in that high emotional state. Trying not to read anything into it, I slept well last night. We did not intertwine in our sleep, but I think I am starting to realize that has nothing to do with love. Also, I look back at all the times when I rolled over not wanting to be touching while we slept. Either I was too tired, or in physical pain and needed to stretch, or whatever. I try to imagine how that made her feel, which is actually quite easy to do now.


Anyway, I have been trying a lot of things. I accidentally looked into a mirror while smiling yesterday (WHOA I know!!!.. SMiling!?) and had another of those clear moments. People like you better when you're happy, go figure. You like yourself better when you're happy, go figure. I stood there for a minute smiling and could tell the moments when I was truly happy and the moments when I was faking it. I know it's cheating because it's ME, but I swear I could see the difference in my face. A really odd excercise, but for anyone reading this (probably just me and mike_chppr at this point, hehehe) I suggest you try it. Seeing yourself happy in a mirror really changes your perspective on how others must see you when your miserable.


Anyway, another running log. Maybe I will become more and more positive throughout this process. Regardless of the outcome I know I want to be a happy person, so why not be.


Thanks again for listening...

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Well folks, I guess sometimes no matter how far you progress it seems the other person has their mind made up.


Nothing you can say, do, think, or feel is going to change the fact that someone doesn't love you anymore than a friend.


My wife is separating from me for an unspecified period of time. Most people at this point would hold out hope, I don't think I should. I know that I didn't realize how much I truly loved her until I pulled my head from this fog. I don't know if she is in a fog, or is thinking very clearly.


I am sick, I knew this could come, but hoped...


I previously setup an appointment with a therapist for Tuesday, so I guess I will go anyway.


And another * * * *ty part of the tale.... my wife loves cats so we have three. However, wherever she goes will most likely be an apartment (eventually) and cannot take three cats. So, guess who gets to have them forever... yep me... Now, in a way it's comforting. I LOVE these cats now. I know, however, that I will think of her when I see them. I guess I can get over that.


So, I will continue to improve myself, but I must admit I am devastated.

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Delarcha: So sorry, I just joined today, and found myself unable to stop reading your past few posts. I can see alot of my relationship in a few things you said, and getting a male perspective helps ALOT. I am beginning to see that relationships/marriage are not easy. I work at an Old Age home, and I see couples that have been together for 60 years, and I think WOW, I want that, why is it that in todays age, we see more and more relationships not working out. Sad, really sad. I think that we may think the grass is greener somewhere else, and then we get there and realize thats not true at all. I can only imagine your pain. I have been married for 7 months, together for 6 years, and going through like I said some of the things you wrote. As far as a female perspective goes She loved you and married you, sometimes I wonder if we cannot get back to where we were before, life, work etc, got in the way. Is there any way that you could take her away for a weekend? Surprise her? Take her somewhere she really enjoys? I know you guys have separated however, sometimes getting away really does help. I am sorry, and we are all here for you. Means little to you right now, but we are here. Keep us posted.

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Thanks Suzy-TO,

Well. Tonight is my first night alone at home. My wife has left to stay with her friend indefinitely. She is meeting friends at a local watering hole on Friday and wants me to join her, and then she will come and stay at home Friday. Her family (and extended) are coming over xmas eve, and she wants me to be here if I want to be. Of course I want to be with her whenever I can. It's really tough as we have talked a lot, and are not mad at each other at all. We get along great as friends, and have come to a few realizations. 1.) She loves me and cares about me (in the capacity of a friend at the very least) 2.) I love her and am in love with her. I have to be honest that she is the woman of my dreams.


Now I don't want to hold out false hope. However, I have realized it is impossible for me to shutoff hope completely. We are officially separated now, and as she can take care of herself, it could be forever. The point is we don't know. I don't know if her being apart from me will spark feelings other than the loss of a friend. I certainly hope so. Hope... it's a funny thing. Without it we feel complete loss now, with it we delay the hurt. However, I believe hope isn't something that can't be combined with a realistic viewpoint. I feel I can hope to start over. I can hope to "date" my wife again. I can hope that the changes I am making just might spark something in her heart. I can hope that we can fall in love all over again, and stronger this time around. However, I realize with a clear mind that things may in fact not be that perfect. I also realize that without hope I could face the pain completely now, give in to the way things are, and not try. (This would allow me to recover quicker as I could face the pain, feel the loss, and get over it)


So, my friends who are still listening. What do I do? I know that I may face awful pain later down the road if things do not work. However, I am taking steps at the moment to better myself regardless of what happens. In my mind, it is worth the risk.. I married my wife because I am willing to do anything to be with her forever. Now that I realize it may not happen I am preparing myself. But I REFUSE to give up hope until she does not wish to try anymore.


Brings me to my next point. Separation is the first step and she does in fact want to at least try counseling. She admitted it may not work, but I think she feels she at least owes the relationship a try.


So folks... This is my lowest point thus far. I cry, I am sad, I LONG for the lost feelings... but I hope... I hope for a better future for myself. I hope for happiness and comfort with myself. And yes... I do hope for a new life with my wife. I hope that we can each rebuild ourselves from the ground up. I hope that we can someday restart our relationship.


I am a gentle, caring, loving person. I am funny, relatively decent looking, smart, and have ambitions and goals in life. I know that one way or another I will be ok. I don't know exactly how that will be yet. At the moment I am lonely and sick... I am also rambling, but this is an important chapter in my life. I wanted to document it.


I will cry tonight, but I will wake up tomorrow and face the new day. I guess I have to repeat this until someday I no longer cry. Each day at a time. That's ALL I can do.

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I say in your shoes you should hope as long as she is willing to try. It is up to you to determine when that point is. For me it was the night I moved out of the bedroom. I thought it was separation, but it wasn't. When we talked that night it was the end. the "Not a grain of sand in my body" talk. I think you seeing a counselor is still a good idea, a face to face with a different trained person can help you really discover what you want. Am I still in love with my wifex. No. I love her, but recognize that mutual chemistry is not there and will not be there. At first I thought I would happily become her friend with benefits, but now I wouldn't think of her that way at all and would refuse the invitation. I think it would reattach what little bond we had in my emotions. Hold out hope, go to counseling and see what happens. Counseling will speed up the "limbo" process, it will either bring you closer together, or further apart, but it will do so more efficiently with more closure emotionally for the both of you. I say if you feel like crying let it out. Not just tears, but your whole body. Cry. You are grieving and the more intensefully you feel the hurt pain anger and agony, the better the peace and happiness in the end. I'm experiencing some peace over my decision, but I'm still too flustered with the somatics of PTSD, I look like a guy with Parkinsons shaky shaky. So happiness is a dream right now. I did experience some bliss today and have a lot of fun. So things are more peppy right now.


Take care delarocha,



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I definitely agree that counseling will either bring us closer or push us further apart. Much in the same way that it seems being separated will either bring us closer or push us apart.


I sit at home today (working from home) and I cannot get my mind off of her. I hope that she is happy and doing ok. I hope that she is thinking about me, misses me, and is thinking about what love means. I have been doing a lot of reading and this is a VERY common thing to happen in relationships. I think in our case that lack of physical intimacy, and the fact that we have ignored it for so long, has magnified this feeling she has of not being in love. After reading, however, it seems that almost all relationships lose that "in love" feeling after a certain period of time. In a way this is sad for me to read about. In another way these articles go on to explain that "in love" evolves into a different (and often much better) type of love. A mutual respect, sharing, caring, and yes intimate loving relationship. To me, this IS being in love. I love my wife for many reasons. I love her as a person, friend, counselor, companion, etc. I have loved waking up with her in the morning, and going to sleep at night with her. I have loved sharing my life with her (even though I have not always shared like I could have) I love her smile. I love the way she laughs when I tell her a joke. I love the way she looks when she gets dolled up, and I love the way she looks after not showering and sitting in pajamas. I realize for whatever reasons we have ignored that one key component of lovers. The thing is it is not that I haven't wanted that. At this point, I hope we can start anew, but I can't decide if each day seems easier or harder.


This is my first day at home, alone... working... thinking... hoping... wishing... in PAIN. Something was broken inside of me, and now that it's patched (at least partially) love flows from my mended heart. The problem is, I cannot show this love to my wife all the time. I am coming to realize that she has to figure out her own feelings, and me trying to force that will do nothing but forever divide us.


She is coming over tonight to pick up some work papers she left here. We are going to go to the gym after that. On one hand I am super happy that I will get to see her. I am happy we will get to spend the holidays together. On the other hand, when Dec. 26th rolls around and she decides to go back and live with her friend I will feel the pain in a new way.


I come in this forum and spill my thoughts "on paper" for several reasons. It feels very therapeutic to get these ideas OUT of my head. It feels good to share these ideas with people who have been there (at least been in similar situations.) I feel like if I can't yell at the top of my lungs to my wife that I love her and want her, that I can at least yell it here. I've considered taking this thread, printing it out, and bringing it to therapy when I go.


All in all there is one thing I know for certain. Either way this turns out I WANT my wife to be happy. I want her to have all the things she feels she is missing now. Honestly, I want those things WITH HER. However, even if "we" decide that cannot happen I still believe she can be happy. Also, I do WANT to be happy. The problem: right now I feel like if this does not work out I will never be happy again. I think about how I feel about her and wonder how I will ever not feel that way. I pray to God about my feelings and ask for guidance and help. I read, I talk to friends, I workout, I setup therapy appointments, I try to keep busy with project around the house and watching TV. All of these things merely distract me until I come home to an empty house, when it's dark outside, and have to force myself to go sleep in an empty bed. I want my wife to miss ME as much as I miss her. Not the house, the cats, the comfortable couch... ME... I don't know if she does or not. I know it's been all of a day.!!! HA, laughable I know... but I am in complete misery. I know she is hurting, but I am afraid she either truly does not love me in that way anymore, OR her feelings are masked....


I do not cry out in anger, I cry out in pain. Where I once had constant physical pain (due to injuries) mixed with depression... I now have constant physical pain and sorrow. Why can I not properly distract myself? I see all the things I have done to improve, and that's great; but I can't help myself from calling my family, friends, and writing here. I am beginning to feel like a pain in the * * * for everyone I know.


I want to say,"Please God, help me to either fall out of love with my wife, or for her to fall in love with me!" But I know it's wrong, because it just SEEMS wrong.


I guess I have rambled and documented enough for today.


I know there really is no way to respond to this... But I thank you for listening...

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Ok all, I know that I have vented quite a deal here. I have been sad, I have been happy... I have really just let it all out.


In thanking everyone who has read ANY of my long ramblings I wanted to share something I actually discovered on another message board. I was feeling very down, as you can probably tell from my last post, and I happened accross a posting by Gunny376 on another forum. (actually two posting)


As I've said before, day by day I learn new things. Well, these two posts were a complete kick to the head. I mean that in a good way!.. I know, it sounds odd... but I plan on printing these out and looking at them every day if I have two. THANK YOU Gunny376, I will be plowing through any material you have posted... Soooooo, I hope he doesn't mind... BUT I wanted to post this material here. (Just in case someone reading all my posts wanders and find this, I hope they can get out of it the same feeling I have.)


(If it is wrong to repost this material I will immediately delete it, but it meant so much for me to hear these things I felt obligated to share them. Thank you so much.)



Credit to Gunny376 for the following


Maybe this will help

In every man's life when it comes to women ~ they are three "Great

One's" that come along and into your life about once every ten years.

Most men don't know this until they've lived at least thirty years or

more. Sometimes they come all at once ~ it happens that way sometimes.


Me? There are five things I absolutely will not stand for and tolerate:


I will NOT be lay a hand upon in an aggressive manner

I will NOT be cheated

I will NOT be lied to

I will NOT be disrespected

I will NOT have my integrity questioned


I don't do these things to other people ~ and I won't let other people

do them to me


What was ~ WAS! What is ~ is! And what will be ~ will BE!


If crying, begging, pleading, arguing couldn't make her stay ~ it sure

as HELL won't make her come back!


If through the years, you prioritized everything and everyone else in

your life ~ (as I did), and put them before you wife ~ regardless of the

reason, why, how come, circumstances ~ this is the "Why" of where you

find yourself. But, don't beat yourself up over it. More than likely ~

you just didn't know ~ that combined with being up to your azz in

alligators, snakes, snapping turtles, and headhunters makes you to tend

to forget that when you started out your initial objective was to drain

the swamp.


You started out on a journey of life together ~ with good intentions ~

and as we all know too well the road to Hell is paved with good

intentions. Then came along the wants, the needs, the material

possessions, the demands of modern day family life with children, the

job ~ then the carrer ~ the demanding boss always wanting more and more

and more, better, better, and better. The comes the bills, the debts ~

just because of the demands of the day to day ~ the idealic world of

true and everlasting love fades to black.


Don't beat yourself up ~ there are literally thousands upon thousands of

people out there that are just waiting just outside your front door,

eagarly awaiting the opportunity to do the job for you ~ just to see the

look on your face.


Don't "would have ~ could have ~ should have"! This is a no-win game.

And, you could literaly spend years playing it.


Its not all her fault, and its not all your fault. You, she mainly fell

into a "life~trap" Nothing in life prepares us for the day to day

reallity of married life. Not high school ~ not college ~ few if any

colleges offer and classes in the subject. Our parents are the best of

role models ~ many of them are on their second, third, fourth, fifth,

sixth, seventh marriages.


People say ~ look at our grandparents ~ our great grandparents etc. They

weren't successful either ~ they just stayed married because the laws at

the time were different and were in favor of the man ~ way in favor of

the man. Sixty ~ seventy years ago the man got EVERYTHING and the wife

was left destitute without the children!


Usually, by the time things have deteroriated to the point that they are

with your wife ~ and you, there's too much water over the damn and under

the bridge. Women don't just up and leave their husbands, its been on

their minds for a very, very long time. They've been dissatisfied for a

very, very long time. They've been un-happy ~ for a very, very long

time. They've been miserable for a very, very long time. They've been

hurting deep inside ~ an emotional pain ~ a deep emotional hurt they've

been nursing for a very, very long time. They've tried coping with it,

dealing with it, overcoming it, neglecting their wants, their needs ~

all for a very long, long time.


People do what works ~ they don't do what doesn't work. Me, myself and

I, now that I've gone through it, been through it, have experienced it ~

and sixteen years the otherside of it ~ I can look back with 20/20

vision and see in her own inept ways, my XW was screaming, shouting,

waving flags, whistling, setting off flares, sending up rockets telling

me that the train was coming and I was standing on the tracks ~ and that

I needed to get my azz off the tracks before I got not just ran over,

but got caught up in the train wreck!


You'll see it one day ~ as well ~ it will be a revelation to you when it

comes. The sooner the better!


If you've a chance in Hell of getting back with your wife ~ you

absolutely must project yourself as a pillar of strength, determination,

resolute, .....................in short you cannot afford to be weak

minded, nor weak spirited, nor weak hearted. In short, you've got to

project an image of "manning~up" Of being a man! Not a wuss, about all

of this ~ no matter how hard it is, no matter how much you sit alone in

your bedroom and crying your ever loving eyes out ~ no matter how hard

it brings you to your knees.


Don't equate ~ manning up ~ with being a masculine ******* ~ equate it

to being a "man" and "manning up" while be loving and caring to your

STBXW and children. Its hard ~ damn hard ~ all freaking day hard ~ but

you've got to be strong. For her, for your children, for yourself.


One of the people that I've meet in my life ~ was a middle age ~ high

school drop out ~ black women. A freaking pillar of strength! Knew

nothing BUT hard times all her live. I will forever ~ remember the night

she told me (I was her supervisor) "Just do the right thing! You KNOW

what it is! God wrote it upon your heart the day you were born! Just DO

the right thing! You know what it is!"


Be a man, but don't forget to do the right thing ~ but in the course of

doing so ~ in the course of doing right by your STBXW, and children ~

"man up" and be a man.


Being a "man" isn't always easy! Not when you sit down and think about

it and give some thought to it. It means staying in a job you hate,

working for a boss that you hate! Its about sucking it up~! Its about

just "dealing with it" and "coping with it later" (AKA ~ Delayed Stress



You? Her? You just got caught up in the day to day! It happens! It

sucks! But, at the end of the day ~ that's the way it is!


You? You were ~ are a bigger part of something that matters, that means

a lot to a lot of people. You? You were ~ are a part of something that

is larger than yourself. Some people go to bed everynight ~ wondering if

they made a differance ~ you my friend DID! And you KNOW it! You? You're

a part of something GREATER than yourself!


Go in peace!


Go with God!


Live Long and prosperous!


God Bless








Additionally he posted this excerpt from a book


This is from Michelle Weiner Davis' book Divorcebusting:






1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or


2. No frequent phone calls

3. Do not point out good points in marriage

4. Do not follow him around the house

5. Do not encourage talk about the future

6. Do not ask for help from family members

7. Do not ask for reassurances

8. Do not buy gifts

9. Do not schedule dates together

10. Do not spy on spouse

11. Do not say "I Love You"

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get

busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,


15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start

the conversation) be scarce or short on words

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his

whereabouts, ASK NOTHING

17. You need to make your partner think that you have

had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you

are going to move on with your life, with or without

your spouse

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull

back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more

important, realize what he will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show

your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him

someone he would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on

hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which

may be a while)

21. Never lose your cool

22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic

23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes

their feelings stronger)

24. Be patient

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really

saying to you

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you

want to speak out

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &

focus on all the other parts of your life that are not

in turmoil)

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest

CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any

words you can say or write

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you

are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with

your spouse

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than

50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in

absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad

you feel

34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes


I wouldn't implement this until AFTER she refuses compliance. Instead, I'd be fairly cooperative with her right up until Legal Separation. After that, I'd do 180's and let her stew a little. She'll be off balance because she's no longer in charge, and she'll be wondering if you're moving on without her.


180's are best done while you're still in contact. The idea is to be ATTRACTIVE, but not solitious. You're pleasant, you're charming, but you're also doing what you need to do in order to protect your family. Right now, you don't have to worry about going to NC (no contact). You're nowhere near needing that yet.


By the way you were on the right track, except you were a little off in your method. You've got get a hold of yourself and get out of the needy~desperate mode. You stay in the needy-despeate mode ~ you've lost her for good.


What you've got to work for first is balance. In other words no matter the outcome ~ you're cool with it. You want to use mental and emotional ju-jitsu on this. Whatever she throws at you, you flip it on her. The more emotinal she gets, the calmer you get. The more ilrational she gets, the more rational you get.


You're not in charge here, but you are in charge of yourself, your emotions, your feelings, your life, your responses, your answers. If your not ~ then your being "weak minded" and you need to work on that big time! Your not in charge of her, nor of the eventual outcome ~ but you are in charge of how you respond to it, how you handle it, and what you do about it. You can choose the negative or your can choose to be positive. You can choose to be strong ~ or you can choose to be weak.

You can choose to let this destroy you ~ or you can use it as a foundation stone for laying the foundation for building the rest of your life.


Most relationships fail because men aren't and don't listen to women, and women don't and won't listen to men ~ slightly more men than women. Something you can do immediately is if and when you do hear from her, tell her (even if its not on) let me turn off the radio and tv. Convey that you're actually listening to her and what she says.


You cannot convice her that you've changed. You must show that you've changed.


Don't beat yourself up, you had less than half of what you needed in your skill set to be married in the first place.


Don't give crediability to any fantasy's. Forget movies and tv ~ they're just going to screw you up.


Welcome to Reality 101, its a mother trucker. Its not going to be pretty, its not going to be fun. The Twilight Zone hasn't got ****e on reality, and Mr. Reality he don't play. When Mr. Reality walks in the door, everyone takes off their hats, and make way for him, even Bad, Bad Lee Roy Brown, and Vinnie and the Boys. When Mr. R gets done with you, you can pick up your azz at the front door on the way out.


If your so inclined, stay off the booze and the drugs ~ now is the time to give them up. Your only postponing the azz whopping Mr. R's fixing to put on you, making it harder, and tougher than it has to be. You've got two choices here, the Easy Way or the Hard Way, but Mr. R is going to whip your azz! How he does it, is entirely up to you.


If your having trouble sleeping go to WalMart to the Herbal and Vitamin section and get yourself some over the counter, non-presecription, non-addictive Melatonin. While your there pick up some SAM-e (its there you've just got to look for it) Take 400mg (two tablets for seven days), then cut back to 200mg (of the SAM-e) the fog will begin to lift. Its expensive but cheaper than a fifth a day habit!


Get physical. Go for a long walk daily. Go to the gym. The more physically assertaive your are the better. Stay active, stay moving. Approach this strategically (big picture) and tactically (little picture).


Forget the wife, the marriage, what we've got to work on is getting you put back together, because there's not going to be a wife, nor marriage unless we can get you put back together. And, the first thing we're going to have to do is get your head out of your azz! That's major surgery. Like I said, Mr. R he don't play.

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