It's hopeless....

[Hangin10]

In reply to the original poster and doubleg137: If you're still in HS, and you learn now, you'll have a leg up for later. It only gets harder, or at least it does for me, my community college is known for not having the most friendly, social(, or law-abiding) people around and I still get hit on (er.. maybe that cancels out my point.). Anyway:

 

step 1) don't care what people think in general. chances are that they don't give a s*** about you, so why should you give a * * * * about them? you are, contrary to what you might think, entitled to ARTICULATELY express your opinions. This doesn't mean that you can look like you just got out of bed though. speak up! I naturally have a rather quiet voice, when I think I'm yelling, people tell me I'm talking normally. The whole scale reverses up if I'm excited about something. You don't need to be loud, but stand your ground. You have the right to disagree.

 

step 2) get some personality. do you ever make jokes? use any innuendo what-so-ever? plenty of girls are fans of Van Wilder, or Eurotrip, Harold and Kumar, and that doesn't make them loose or bad people. Just about any personality will do. I'd bet the guy in my English class gets something, no matter how much it seems like he has latent homoerotic feelings for Arnold and other body builders. If you constantly want to hold her hand, kiss her cheek, and never tell her what you're actually thinking when she inevitably does something stupid or makes a mistake or otherwise ticks you off (and you'll make it obvious in other ways), you WILL get SHOT DOWN time and time again (and if that sounds rather specific... no comment is the biggest comment, eh?)

 

step 3) I actually lost my train of thought since it's late, I rambled, and I have 3 IM conversations going. Basically, if you're both a coward and have a stick up your butt at the same time, you're going to come off as a boring, stuck up, sentimental, passive-aggressive person. Read some David DeAngelo. I don't recommend necessarily doing all of it verbatim, but take a look at how having your wits about you along with some kind of a sense of humor will get you pretty darn far.

[heloladies21]

You're not listening, you being kind isn't what's preventing you from getting girls. But at this point you're mind is very much made up and there's nothing I can say short of showing you myself that I am all of those positive qualities you're talking about, none of those negative qualities, and still have a gf. This is not magic, it's something you can learn how to do and it does not involve treating women like garbage, property, or any of the other characteristics you've wrongly come up with.

 

It is the simple truth that you can get a gf still being a good guy and not treating girls like garbage. I am living proof. Believe me or not, but I have no motivation to lie to you.

 

If you're not willing to change your view on this evolution will ween your genes out of existence. The choice is up to you, but the answer is right in front of you (link removed). If you're not willing to go get it, then you have noone to blame but yourself.

[heloladies21]

So... what reasons are wrong?

As for this question, you sound wayyyy to serious and this comes accross to girls. You also have a pessimistic view of the world in general and this is a turn off to chicks.

[Hangin10]

doubleq, I think you've seriously got the wrong idea. One person treating another like they are property is just about the quickest way to loose anyone worth having; if someone gets treated like property and they stick around, they aren't worth it. Do little things ever tick you off? Do you just ignore it? If you have the slightest feeling that you're being wronged, at least say so. Somehow, I get the feeling what you call "treated like property" is closer to "calling someone's BS/bluff."

 

Edit: heloladies21, that last post was the first constructive thing you've said to the guy. How about helping instead of just "you're wrong" and marketing a speed seduction site? I think he gets that we think he's wrong, otherwise an argument would not be ensuing.

[Aurian]

Well, perhaps a female point of view then. A bit of background. I met someone who seemed to treat me with kindness, patience, love, respect, etc. I married that person. After 3 years together, he decided he had me hooked and began to abuse me. I finally realized that I wasn't getting the kind, patient, loving, respectful man back ever again and left.

 

So I am not a woman who wants brutality. I want those things you profess to have. However, I do see some red flags when I read your posts, perhaps the same things the women around you see.

 

okay... Im near 36, and I have never had a girlfriend. I have completely given up. I've given up being patient, I've given up even trying anymore. The only people I have noticed that are together with anyone are brutal f**king animals who treat women like property, and treat their kids almost as good as a cheetah treats a wounded antelope. If these are the people I have to be anything like to be with someone, then I would rather be alone.

 

Are these the kind of people in your life and associate with so that you have no examples of good relationships? Do your friends treat women like sh*t? I'd be damn nervous around someone who associates with people like that, and even more scared if his own family was like that.

 

Qualities.. I believe is self-determination. I believe in truth, freedom, paitence, peace, and generosity.

 

These sound good to me. However, do you show them? Talk to cheap after all, and reading your posts, I do not see these qualities. You're not peaceful, but angry and aggressive. You're not truthful, you're painting all women as sadomaschistic mindless wimps. If this is how you view women, this will come out in ways when you interact with them (call it a vibe), and they will react to that.

 

You talked about your major dates and they were all very short. My guess is that these women either felt there was something wrong despite no avert signs of danger, or some or all of these women were b*tches or flakes (we all aren't, but there are some out there!). Nevertheless, you judge us all by three very short relationships?

 

I got into arguments with them before, to the extent that I was trying to explain to them why I wasn't beating them, why I was listening to them when they were speaking, why i was thoughful, or asking if there was a place we could go where we wouldn't have to shout at the top of our lungs to have a conversation.

 

You tell women WHY you aren't beating them up? Just talking about hitting is almost as scary as actually doing it! When my ex spoke of hitting me and why he didn't do it (yet), it felt like he WAS hitting me, because he wanted to. In fact, when he started doing this, I started removing myself from the marriage, because the fact he was bringing it up in an argument terrified me into thinking that carrying through would be next!

 

One thing that bothered Miss J (#1) , is why I went to the theater early to buy tickets for a movie she wanted to see on a certain day and time (friday night). Miss J was wondering why I would take some extra effort for tickets. I stated that on a friday night, you can't really tell if any one movie is going to be sold out. And since is was going to rain that night, a lot of people might be going to the movies rather then sitting outside. Hence, we were seated in a sold out theater, while a lot of people who waited until the evening to get tickets were turned away. I must be the most horrible person in the world.

 

You know... if someone is going to kick me in the teeth for doing something nice for them, for being thoughtful, then that pretty does it in for me. I was in no way going to win in this one. If we were shut out of the theater by a sellout of tickets, I would have been the heel in this event in that we weren't able to get into the theater, but I was still the heel in the event because she would question my motivation for being thoughtful. She couldn't just say "thank you" and leave it at that. A couple times of this stuff is okay if it gets corrected, after three months and repeated similar kicks to the teeth, I was done. I ended it because she couldn't accept kindness.

 

I think there is more to this story, because I agree that planning ahead shows kindness and forethought. What did she actually say?

 

So... what reasons are wrong?

 

Treating a woman with kindness? Is that wrong? Being considerate, thoughtful, respectful and honest? I guess any one of those must be a capital crime in the dating world. Should anyone reading this have to wonder why I gave up on it? I will not stop being that "nice" guy. I will not stop treating people with kindness. I will not stop being thoughtful. I will not remain around people who treat with disdain or doubtfulness when I do something thoughtful for them. If I am sentenced to remain alone because I refuse to be anything but true to myself and be able to look at myself in the mirror in the morning, then fine. I will not become what I despise just to attain a girlfriend. I will not treat women like property. I absolutely refuse to do that, and would DIE before I do that. Freedom to me is precious. Respecting the freedoms of others is precious. If that means I remain alone, fine. Big Deal. I hope this may enlighten you to my take on how I treat others. You may say this sounds selfish to just close off, but remember what I do when faced with getting kicked in the teeth for being thoughtful. Its going to take someone pretty damned special to get around it. Someone who is accepting of kindness, that all I ask. I guess that must be the most heinous crime of all.

 

You sound very angry, pessimistic and self-righteous. Those are the qualities that might need to be "fixed" not being kind, thoughtful or loving.

[Managor]

*claps* I agree completely

[doubleg137]

Well, perhaps a female point of view then. A bit of background. I met someone who seemed to treat me with kindness, patience, love, respect, etc. I married that person. After 3 years together, he decided he had me hooked and began to abuse me. I finally realized that I wasn't getting the kind, patient, loving, respectful man back ever again and left.

 

So I am not a woman who wants brutality. I want those things you profess to have. However, I do see some red flags when I read your posts, perhaps the same things the women around you see.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleg137

okay... Im near 36, and I have never had a girlfriend. I have completely given up. I've given up being patient, I've given up even trying anymore. The only people I have noticed that are together with anyone are brutal f**king animals who treat women like property, and treat their kids almost as good as a cheetah treats a wounded antelope. If these are the people I have to be anything like to be with someone, then I would rather be alone.

 

Are these the kind of people in your life and associate with so that you have no examples of good relationships? Do your friends treat women like sh*t? I'd be damn nervous around someone who associates with people like that, and even more scared if his own family was like that.

 

My friends do not treat their wives or girlfriends badly, at least as far as I have seen.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleg137

Qualities.. I believe is self-determination. I believe in truth, freedom, paitence, peace, and generosity.

 

These sound good to me. However, do you show them? Talk to cheap after all, and reading your posts, I do not see these qualities. You're not peaceful, but angry and aggressive. You're not truthful, you're painting all women as sadomaschistic mindless wimps. If this is how you view women, this will come out in ways when you interact with them (call it a vibe), and they will react to that.

 

These have been my experiences. You may by confusing anger with my frustration at not being able to figure out a puzzle.

 

You talked about your major dates and they were all very short. My guess is that these women either felt there was something wrong despite no avert signs of danger, or some or all of these women were b*tches or flakes (we all aren't, but there are some out there!). Nevertheless, you judge us all by three very short relationships?

 

These were only the three best examples of what I as talking about. I don't judge you all, because I haven't dated you all. If I sounded like I was judging all women, then I apologize. These are my experiences dating, and if all your experiences were as negative as mine were, (and yet still I continued until I gave up), would you want to try again in the face of only negative experiences?

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleg137

I got into arguments with them before, to the extent that I was trying to explain to them why I wasn't beating them, why I was listening to them when they were speaking, why i was thoughful, or asking if there was a place we could go where we wouldn't have to shout at the top of our lungs to have a conversation.

 

You tell women WHY you aren't beating them up? Just talking about hitting is almost as scary as actually doing it! When my ex spoke of hitting me and why he didn't do it (yet), it felt like he WAS hitting me, because he wanted to. In fact, when he started doing this, I started removing myself from the marriage, because the fact he was bringing it up in an argument terrified me into thinking that carrying through would be next!

 

You would have to meet this woman I was talking about. She may have a high flake ratio.

 

 

Quote:

One thing that bothered Miss J (#1) , is why I went to the theater early to buy tickets for a movie she wanted to see on a certain day and time (friday night). Miss J was wondering why I would take some extra effort for tickets. I stated that on a friday night, you can't really tell if any one movie is going to be sold out. And since is was going to rain that night, a lot of people might be going to the movies rather then sitting outside. Hence, we were seated in a sold out theater, while a lot of people who waited until the evening to get tickets were turned away. I must be the most horrible person in the world.

 

You know... if someone is going to kick me in the teeth for doing something nice for them, for being thoughtful, then that pretty does it in for me. I was in no way going to win in this one. If we were shut out of the theater by a sellout of tickets, I would have been the heel in this event in that we weren't able to get into the theater, but I was still the heel in the event because she would question my motivation for being thoughtful. She couldn't just say "thank you" and leave it at that. A couple times of this stuff is okay if it gets corrected, after three months and repeated similar kicks to the teeth, I was done. I ended it because she couldn't accept kindness.

 

I think there is more to this story, because I agree that planning ahead shows kindness and forethought. What did she actually say?

 

Not having the presense of mind to write down verbatim what she said on a rainy friday night years ago, it was something like "Why would you do that? Why would you take the extra time to do something like that for me?" (not an exact quote, but it gets the jist of it)

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleg137

So... what reasons are wrong?

 

Treating a woman with kindness? Is that wrong? Being considerate, thoughtful, respectful and honest? I guess any one of those must be a capital crime in the dating world. Should anyone reading this have to wonder why I gave up on it? I will not stop being that "nice" guy. I will not stop treating people with kindness. I will not stop being thoughtful. I will not remain around people who treat with disdain or doubtfulness when I do something thoughtful for them. If I am sentenced to remain alone because I refuse to be anything but true to myself and be able to look at myself in the mirror in the morning, then fine. I will not become what I despise just to attain a girlfriend. I will not treat women like property. I absolutely refuse to do that, and would DIE before I do that. Freedom to me is precious. Respecting the freedoms of others is precious. If that means I remain alone, fine. Big Deal. I hope this may enlighten you to my take on how I treat others. You may say this sounds selfish to just close off, but remember what I do when faced with getting kicked in the teeth for being thoughtful. Its going to take someone pretty damned special to get around it. Someone who is accepting of kindness, that all I ask. I guess that must be the most heinous crime of all.

 

You sound very angry, pessimistic and self-righteous. Those are the qualities that might need to be "fixed" not being kind, thoughtful or loving.

 

Reading back on it, I will admit I do sound pessimistic. Having years upon years of negative soul-crushing experiences tends to make one jaded. I do want to give up, and I would think of what my life would be like in thirty years and not having anyone in it, and it makes me want to try again. But trying again, and knowing failure is more common that success, at least for me, doesn't make me positive.

[RIPDIME]

Well here we go il look at this in a positive aspect. I am extremely shy, however I know I am attractive to girls (I have already said this). I guess this would be how being shy works.

 

1. Either two things trigger someone shyness levels. One a positive event happens and the day goes right, their shyness lessens and they are generally happy. Or a negative event happens and someone's shyness heightens now they are depressed.

 

2. Now if theyre the negative option, they are going to look negative as they are and I guess this deters people away ie not getting any girls. Now if theyre positive theyl look positive and the opposite will happen.

 

3. However also when your shy you also dont talk to girls, which means theyres no way you could even ask them out. Also if your shy and a girl does happen to talk to you than they think you just dont like them because your shyness seems as though your negative and not interested.

 

The problem is, I cant help my shyness. Sometimes I get out of the hole but than an event happens which brings my shyness or depression back. Its just a cycle as well and even if I try to change it, its impossible. So really I dont know what to do and im trying to look at it positively now....!

[Aurian]

I am a very shy person myself and I am trying to work on this too.

 

Some ideas that I am trying...

 

- Starting small and working my way up. I'm one of those people who has trouble making eye contact and has a lot of negative self-talk about how people might react to me. So I'm trying to smile and make eye-contact with people in general first. I see that people respond positively for the most part, and that gives me a bit of confidence for my next step, initiating small talk with people I don't know very well. This is a scary step for me in real life, but I am trying to work through it. Once I feel comfortable with that, then the next step, whatever it might be, might be easier! Eventually I'll get to the point where I am not so shy at talking to members of the opposite sex, who I am attracted to!

 

Course, this might be kinda long, so maybe you should just acknowledge the fear and do it anyways! Kinda like jumping into cold water instead of inching your way in like I am doing!

 

 

Second thought is... anywhere you don't feel shy? Can you meet people there? When I am ready, I plan to try online dating, because I don't feel shy online for some reason. Once I broke the ice online, I figure I won't be so shy/scared at the first meeting (after all, if he asks me out, he wants to talk to me, right?)

[doubleg137]

You're not listening, you being kind isn't what's preventing you from getting girls. But at this point you're mind is very much made up and there's nothing I can say short of showing you myself that I am all of those positive qualities you're talking about, none of those negative qualities, and still have a gf. This is not magic, it's something you can learn how to do and it does not involve treating women like garbage, property, or any of the other characteristics you've wrongly come up with.

 

It is the simple truth that you can get a gf still being a good guy and not treating girls like garbage. I am living proof. Believe me or not, but I have no motivation to lie to you.

 

 

I think the fact that Im not even trying anymore is a big strike against me. In my experience, which is about 98% negative, I have observed that a lot of men who treat women like garbage/ property, get the women. Its just more difficult to find someone when you're unwilling to do it, and those I have found expect the bad treatment as the norm rather than the deviation from the norm. Other than that, the ones that appreciate the kindness are already married or otherwise committed to someone else. So... as a what do I call it.... lets call it a ground rule, married or committed women are strictly off limits. I want to try again, and yet I don't, maybe when I'm ready. Mostly I don't want to try again because I don't like hitting the wall, hoping to break through. Seems like walls for some are made of tissue paper, and for some the wall is 10 feet of solid rock.

[heloladies21]

I was going to put this in my last post that these false beliefs are a defense mechanism you've set up to avoid the pain that goes along with interacting with the opposite sex. Now you have an excuse, because if getting a girl involves being a bad guy, and you don't want to be a bad guy, so now you have the false justification to not interact with women.

 

This is something you're going to have to get over on your own, like something inside of you is going to have to snap and your desire for women will have to trump your fear of them. Either that, or you will stay alone. Just stop with this "I have to be a jerk to get girls" because it's just not the truth. You don't want to interact with girls because you fear the possible pain, that's it.

[Kevin T]

Heloladies is right.

 

You need to stop finding reasons to avoid interacting with women. Sure, there's a risk involved in dating and approaching women. You don't think we all know that? And sure, it's hard. But the rewards are HUGE.

 

Think about it: If you risk nothing, you win nothing. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, right?

 

It's so true. You need to be willing, first of all, to put yourself out there, then at least you can say you had the courage (which is a manly quality) to go up to a girl you like and ask her out. If she says no, so what? She's not worth it, then! Simple as that. You need to start taking initiative with women and start showing them you're a MAN.

 

Being a "jerk" has little to do with it. Sure, chicks like a smart aleck, a guy who can make them feel safe and a guy who can be the man of the relationship. That's how they were made. But to say they insist on being poorly treated is a false belief. It's completely incorrect.

 

Women do value kindness, love and romance. But they don't want a walking doormat either. They want someone who will be tough to the world and keep her safe, yet someone who can be soft and gentle when he's with her. Like a hard candy with a soft, sweet center.

 

So, being willing to take a risk and you'll find the rewards are great! Trust me.

[doubleg137]

Okay I agree with that, totally. Be a snit to the outside world and appear courageous, but be kind to your woman. Im sure I will be willing to take a risk, but I don't get that whole going up to a complete stranger and asking her out thing. To me, thats sounds like predation, not courage. Maybe you could enlighten me with a couple examples of what you speak of.

[heloladies21]

I have a ton of sites which can help you with this part, picking up girls. There's nothing predatory about starting up a conversation with a complete stranger. It's just a conversation, it's just asking for her phone number, it's just a phone call, it's just a date, it's just a consentual kiss, it's just consentual sex. You are going to have to be the one to initiate the conversation, but that's just the way evolutionary psychology/biology has set it up. You can argue all you want with mother nature for that, but she's not gonna listen. So an easier solution is merely to learn what it takes to go and get and keep interested the women you really want.

[Kevin T]

I have a ton of sites which can help you with this part, picking up girls. There's nothing predatory about starting up a conversation with a complete stranger. It's just a conversation, it's just asking for her phone number, it's just a phone call, it's just a date, it's just a consentual kiss, it's just consentual sex. You are going to have to be the one to initiate the conversation, but that's just the way evolutionary psychology/biology has set it up. You can argue all you want with mother nature for that, but she's not gonna listen. So an easier solution is merely to learn what it takes to go and get and keep interested the women you really want.

 

The thing is, women don't necessarily view a conversation as "just a conversation." Some will indefinitely show resistance or even worse at the random approach of a strange man.

[heloladies21]

The thing is, women don't necessarily view a conversation as "just a conversation."

Not if you do it the right way. And even if there is initial resistance, it's your job as the man to work your way around it and break down the resistance.

 

But you can't even let this kind of doubt or fear cloud your mind, otherwise you'll keep talking yourself out of making the approach out of fear.

[Kevin T]

True, but being that I am incredibly intuitive by nature, I can tell instinctively if I am making a woman uncomfortable, and it makes it quite difficult to push past that to try and get her interested when she's clearly not.

 

Nevertheless, your advice is sound and makes sense.

[heloladies21]

You gotta learn how to push past this, because this is the first test women use to see if you're persistent enough, and thus a suitable mate.

 

I've had girls completely shun me, only to have them do a 180 and become my gf later on.

[doubleg137]

You gotta learn how to push past this, because this is the first test women use to see if you're persistent enough, and thus a suitable mate.

 

I've had girls completely shun me, only to have them do a 180 and become my gf later on.

Im sorry man, this still sounds predatory to me. It just doesn't ring right in my head.

[heloladies21]

Im sorry man, this still sounds predatory to me. It just doesn't ring right in my head.

And how is this? Lemme give you a couple of examples.

 

I was at this latin dance club visiting one of my friends who is a bartender. He was busy and this fine girl was standing next to me waiting to get a drink. I was looking at the dance floor watching people dance and she was in my line of sight. I just asked her "Do you know how to dance like that?" and we just had a conversation from there. I ended up getting her number. That was an easy one, it fell apart later for other reasons (no i'm not perfect but i'm working on it ).

 

Then there was this other time I was on a dance floor at a different club and this one old chick was wasted in the corner. The boncers came over to escort her out and I noticed this other hottie who noticed as well. I just said to her "That's called havin a rough night right there." She smiled, but no obvious interest. I remember I was a little drunk, but I had to persist for a bit, then before you know it she's backin up on me to "bump and grind." I actually didn't get her number, I was talkin good, but just not enough time. Oh well...

 

My recent ex, I didn't even talk to her, I just tried to dance with her from behind, but she just walked away. I gave it a minute, started conversation with her, then she was all over me.

 

I do things like this and have never gotten slapped, never gotten a drink poured on me, the worst that's happened is either a dirty look or a disrespecting comment, but I'm a big boy and I can handle it. This is the price you have to pay to interact with women. For me, it's a small price to pay for such a great reward, and the more I practice, the better my results ie. less bad reactions and more good ones.

[heloladies21]

None of these stories are predatory. They show initiative, creativity, and guts. I'm also very sensitive to girls reactions and rarely if ever get the vibe that I'm hurting anyone.

[doubleg137]

Okay... #1.. I don't go to clubs anymore. I don't think having my skeleton shaken apart at the joints or having future hearing loss by the intensely loud music is worth finding someone that won't be worth it. I have tried it, with earplugs, got a few numbers and have had nothing but failures there. At my age (35), the club scene ended five years ago. I have tried many things. I have tried the eharmful site and that failed after over 200 failed matches. I have done nothing but fail at this. I sure as heck don't think that spending another $2k or whatever mystery method is trying to charge is worth it either. It all still seems predatory to me. It just doesn't strike me as right way to go about it. I don't know what is the right way. If I knew what was right, I wouldn't be here, now would I? I have no clue what to do other that go about my business and still treat people kindly. I guess some people just aren't meant to find love in their lives no matter how much they would like to have it. Its like people who aren't meant for fame, or talent. Some things are given. Some things are worked for. Some things just aren't got no matter what you do. I have to accept that it won't ever happen, and give up on it no matter what I do. I will not become what I despise to get something I was never meant to have.

[heloladies21]

These conversations could've happened anywhere, at the supermarket or in the mall, so I don't wanna hear it about the clubs.

 

No one has ever called me predatory and I don't see it that way. Your view is incorrect. And if you can't think up a better way than what I and every other man who was meant to procreate do, then be open to the possibility that everything I'm telling you is right and you are wrong. And the dvd set is a little over 200 doallrs i think. The ebook is even less than that probably like 30 bucks, so money is not an issue here. If you aren't willing to spend that much, then you don't want to change your life bad enough.

 

Every time I break down one of your excuses, you just make up another one, so there's no point. They're not real reasons, they're a defense mechanism you've set up so you don't have to interact with women anymore.

 

I guess some people just aren't meant to find love in their lives no matter how much they would like to have it.

This is true, and those people who believe this are effectively sterile and meant to have their lineage terminate.

[doubleg137]

I interact with women.. I just don't ask every single one of them out at the drop of a hat out of fear that I won't procreate, and I don't ask them out without getting to know them first. How do you just ask someone out at the drop of a hat in a club or wherever else? Thats what I see as predatory, and thats not me. I don't think its right.

 

If you did nothing but fail for year upon soul-crushing year, wouldn't you think that you were probably not meant for this?

[heloladies21]

Who ever said anything about doing that? Just going up to someone and saying "hey let's get together sometime, by the way my name is xxx." It doesn't work that way either, you have to get to know the person. That's why you ask for the phone number, to get to know them better too. It's hard to explain things to you because you make assumptions and put words into my mouth.

 

I've seen guys who have never even kiss a girl get good at this, so everyone, even you has the potential to learn how to do this. Something inside you is going to have to want it first though. Until you make a decision that "yes, i wanna learn how to do this and I'm willing to put in the time and effort and be open to trying new ideas that I might initially disagree with", there's nothing that can be done.