The door is closed

[foobar]

I been married for almost 9 years, dated for 3 prior to that. We have 2 children in elementary school. Our marriage had its ups and downs but was never in jeopardy, and I believe that we were both very happy. About 2 1/2 yrs ago, we had some major life stresses occur in a very short period of time: I got laid off at the end of the tech boom, our youngest was diagnosed w/ autism and she changed from being a part-time worker (a function of raising the babies) to going back to work full time. To make matters worse, she did not find her nitch at work during the first 18mos and was generally unhappy-- only recently did she find here "place" at work and began into feel comfortable. I too, had stress of rebuilding my career after the tech bust, and was grouchy, distant, irritable, insensitive, etc... Needless to say, we have drifted apart.

 

We both saw it as it was happening and tried different things. Originally we had a weekly date night, but she complained after a while that we were "abusing the grandparents" (nonsense, I said). That slipped away and we tried doing separate, me-time activities. She focused on physical fitness-- first the gym, then later dropped that for running and biking. Additionally, she became more interested in work. She became very distant from me and the kids-- something she refuses to admit to me or herself. During my struggle to rebuild my career, she had an emotional affair (a long-ish story) that hurt me very deeply. I (sort have) moved on from it, but still have trouble because she does not see why it bothered me so much-- or just didn't / doesn't care. Either way, it just added to the stress of the relationship.

 

We tried counseling, and it did not go well. As early as the 2nd session, the councilor would say things to *her* like, "and you need to be setting yourself up for life after you two are divorced"-- that did not go well w/ me. Additionally, the councilor "identified issues" that were the furthest thing from the truth (I need pills / the kids don't fit her lifestyle), that later caused more problems. I stopped going. She kept going, secretly, for 18 more sessions.

 

Most of this time things were tranquil, occasionally we would have a fight, which I admit, I made worse by the unconstructive ways I would handle it—emotional outbursts, walking away, being mad for days, etc...

 

As said previously, we have both known that we were slipping apart and the marriage was spiraling downward. I confronted her about it last month, and we got some new issues aired, which I immediately and permanently addressed and she recommitted to the marriage. Then her mother got involved and pissed me off. I ended up telling the kids that daddy needed to leave the house for a while and left-- for an hour-- not the weeks or permanently as I first anticipated. Of course, she is infuriated about this incident, and told me her heart is closed, she is tired of trying, the marriage is over and the only reason she would even stay in the house is for the kids.

 

Of course, I had to choose this exact instant to realize how bad things were and re-dedicate myself to trying to save our marriage and rekindle our relationship *at all costs*.

 

The situation is messed up for sure, and I am devastated. There is obviously more to the story, but I believe that the foundation is there and that we had a rough couple of years. We love our children above all else, and I do very much love her. She is distant and refuses to open her heart—no going out, no counseling (professional, church-based or otherwise), refusal to talk about rebuilding the relationship in any way. At this point she knows exactly how I feel and how dedicated I am to her and rebuilding the relationship and the family—but she will not respond to me or my overtures for reconciliation.

 

Ok, so far so good-- it looks consistant: it's over. But...

 

What makes matters confusing is that she is perfect cordial w/ me whether the kids are around or we are alone—it is as if everything is normal. Even after I left that day, we have since gone shopping and she showed great care in getting me the proper equipment (she could have just said “you know where the store is” , upgrading my wardrobe ("these look alot better on you"), and provided advise on a new hair style ("try your hair like that actor..., you'd look great") and sleeping in the same bed—normal married couple stuff. We even still attend a Tae Kwan Do class three days a week together ("I like going to that class with you", she says over and over again) and she acts as if nothing is wrong. However, she says things like “I love you as the father of our children, but I do not love you anymore” and “emotionally, our marriage is over, I am only staying in the house for the kids”. There is no sex, and I am not permitted to hold her, cuddle or the like. I am very confused.

 

I will say that I am an emotional person—I blow my top and move on—while she tends to hold it in and simmer. That is the main problem on her side that got us here, and she has been told that by many close to her, including myself—lack of communication on what bothers her. For me, it is my emotional outbursts and jumping to conclusions too quickly-- not listening well.

 

I do not understand why she just doesn’t leave or throw me out, or call the lawyer and file for divorce. Why is she still cordial to me and shows she still cares even when the two of us are alone and there is no reason to put on a show?

 

At this point, I was told be several people (my mother, her brother, co-workers, etc...) that I am trying too hard by trying to discuss the situation, suggesting counseling, etc… and was told that I should perhaps distance myself and give her space. How do I do this w/o moving out and putting the kids through that emotional ringer again? To make matters worse, our anniversary and her birthday are in early October.

 

In summary, I am 100% committed to working this out *now*, but she is not interested at all. Any suggestions or advise? How far do I back off to give her space? to the point of not even attending Tae Kwan Do-- an activity we both enjoy doing together? Should I stop doing my share of housework or try to compensate by doing more than my share? I am completely confused by her behavior at this point, and thereforeeee not sure about the best way to reopen the door.

[Stambler]

foobar-

 

I feel your pain! I am going through a very similar thing. It takes time and patience - hang in there! And by all means - stop discussing the relationship, don't be too emotionally distant, just get on with things as they are and act happy and contnet. It's very difficult and hurts, but it works!

 

Read my Thread "Am I Holding on to False Hopes?" in "Breaking Up and Divorce\Divorce" (not the one titled the same in this forum, it's not as good).

 

I HIGHLY recommend the e-book "Keep Your Marriage" by Nancy Wasson and Lee Hefner

 

link removed

 

(I'm NOT paid to say this!)

 

Read my thread. let me know what you think, perhaps we could just vent to each other to get through this!

[foobar]

I appreciate the feedback. You are probably right-- discussing the situation is only making me dwell on the issue. I think the original thought was to let the hurt out and seek other perspectives as way to improve myself and the situation. Can you clarify your reasons for saying not to discuss the situation? I *think* I know why you are saying this, but I would love to know for sure.

[Stambler]

Oh!

 

I should have clarified - don't discuss the situation with HER! But, by all means, DO discuss it with others. I wouldn't recommend discussing it with family, because if you resolve things they may always hold this against her. And DO NOT, under any circumstance, discuss it with her friends or family. I made this mistake and she felt as if I was going behind her back, trying to find out something she wasn't telling me. It not only made her feel as if I didn't believe her or trust her, but it made her feel as if I was making her friends uncomfortable and that they would not want to talk to her about it anymore. I, in essense, betrayed her

 

It's best to discuss this on eNA, or with a spiritual advisor. Sometimes friends take your side and tend to put blinders on as to the real reason behind the problem.

 

The reason you should never bring it up with her is that it gives the impression of you being needy, clingy, and insecure. You say "What's going on, why are you doing this to me, I don't want to lose you…" and all she hears is "I'm a little baby and I can't have my way, why me? Why me? Why me?" I KNOW this is not how you are, but it will look that way to her.

 

The best headway I have made over this 6 month+ episode is to be happy, positive, supportive, content, and (believe it or not) taking an interest in myself, my hobbies and friends. "Happy, positive, supportive, content" shows that you are secure, rock solid so to speak. That's what most women want – a rock. The "taking an interest in oneself, hobbies and friends" shows that you have a life beyond her, thus making you not so needy and clingy.

 

I have spoken to many wise women on this forum and they all say the same thing – if you act like a child (as I did and suspect you have), you're going to be treated like a child, that means no sex, no intimacy and no romance. They do not "withhold" these things from you as a punishment, they respond to you in the same way anyone would respond to a child. It's not possible to feel a sexual and romantic bond for someone who is not an adult (unless of course there are other issues!).

 

The other thing to remember is that IT TAKES TIME! Every time you "ask" about or "push" the relationship issue she will retreat further and further. She needs to see a happy you, a content you, a sexy you. It may take a week, a year, no one knows. You have to decide on the time limit and if things don't change you have to decide if you want to stay in a platonic marriage. But you have just started going through this. You have many lessons to learn and mistakes to recover from – but you'll have to go through it - believe me.

 

Seem unfair? Well, it is, but would you rather lose her???

 

Get the book, change your ways. If it doesn't work then you will be a much better person for the next chapter of your life. Hang in there - you have a very good chance!

[foobar]

I read your thread (it took an hr!) and found it very encouraging.

 

As you have seen from the above, she is obviously not committed to leaving yet, but is still very close to doing so. My view is that as long as we still live in the same house, there is a chance. Before I read your thread, I had settled on a strategy of bettering myself physically and spiritually and committed myself to the approaches based on two books that I have found very helpful thus far:

o Divorce Busting by Michele Weiner Davis

o How to Save Your Marriage Alone by Ed Wheat, MD

The latter is Christan-oriented, so be forewarned if that is not for you.

 

I am very encouraged by the fact that you were seeing results in about 3-4mos (not that it was *resolved* in 3-4 mos). I am at about the three week mark and have often woundered how long I can have the strength to keep up with this. After knowing each other for 12 years and two beautiful children, it is hard for me to accept that she sees no need to try to repair the relationship-- my hope is that this view is anger speaking and that w/ time, it will lift. I could be wrong, but I hope not.

 

As for discussing the situation with her family, both mine and here live 10min in either direction from us-- we are close to our families. I only told her mother that I am 100% committed to working this out. I am wondering if I should confide in her brother because he just went through a divorce, and deeply regrets not hanging in there. He was surprisingly, extremely supportive of us fixing the marriage and told me that I had to hang in there at all costs (knocked my socks off, actually-- I thought he would be angry w/ me instead). Additionally, he might be a window into her thoughts (if I probe *gently*). Anyway, that's the thought. Care to comment?

 

Any thoughts on the upcoming birthday and anniversary? The birthday seems easy enough, a card and a non-meaningful item that she has been asking for for sometime-- I don't think this will put pressure on her. The anniversary is harder. I could just give her a card an write a note that says I still care, or I could pull the china out of the cabinet and make a nice dinner-- I am thinking the latter might be a bit much and would probably be awkward.

[foobar]

We still seem to have those "normal" days, and she still takes interest in my progress w/ running and TKD. Yesterday, she called me at work to say she was going to the kids' school openhouse, but we talked about other things for 10-15min when the conversation could have been over very quickly. She mentioned she was having political issues at work and said we would talk about it when we got home-- it did not come up because we were talking about TKD instead... To me, a good sign no matter what.

 

I can not believe by the way she is acting that she *really* wants out. She is pissed and on the edge for sure, but she would have left by now if the decision was final. I can only hope that I do the right things (Doing too much housework for her? Staying too far away from her? etc...) Currently, my tactic is that she will let me know. I am not sure of this though, because she is not an open person and generally does not initiate...

[Stambler]

foobar,

 

I'm glad to help in any way. I told myself that if I can't save my marriage, then damn it, I'm going to save everyone else's!!

 

I have actually been going through this for about 6-7 months, but only behaving like an adult for 2-3 months!!!

 

As far as talking to her brother - I think that's great ONLY if she's not talking to him. If he is not normally one she would confide in, then great, I think he would be a wonderful source of support. Just try not to use him to find out what she's thinking, she'll tell you in time.

 

As far as BDs and Anniversaries? I'm in the same position. My best advice is a nice "friendship-love" type card and a non-romantic present, or even flowers, just don't make it look pushy. OR you can plan dinner out with the family - we seem to be doing very well with the family outings.

 

I'll check into those books - I consider my self a Christian (although I'm no - but I do believe!)

[foobar]

She's never fully trusted my family and recently got pissed at my Dad for an email he wrote a yr ago when she was having (what appeared to be) the beginnings of an emotional affair. I can't blame my dad for being supportive of me when she was distant, but she read it only a few weeks ago, and applies his comments to today despite her knowing exactly when it was written. The family outings are out for now.

 

I will probably play it by ear, but right now it is looking like a card and *maybe* flowers (not roses)...

 

>I'll check into those books - I consider my self a Christian

 

I have never been "devout", but my core is there. The first book-- Divorce Busting-- is not religious in any way. Highly recommended. I will look into your recommended book.

[foobar]

Well, last night was different. I continued with my "give her space strategy", I did not go home right away (I wrote her a note last in a nice card last week explaining that I would be doing things like this), and met up w/ her and the kids at TKD at 730p, as usual. I was in a good mood, having just gotten promoted at work.

 

The kids came in first and were thrilled to see me and I them. She looked miserable. I asked what's wrong and she said that she had a panic attack and had been thinking (dwelling?) about us all day and could not focus. We did the class (belt test tomorrow), and came home. She apparently was stewing all through the class. After the kids were asleep, she unloaded on me-- same old stuff: I am angry with you.

 

I was proud of myself-- I did not get angry (or beg for forgiveness) or really show any emotion other than being caring and understanding and willing to work through the problems. At one point, I even suggested that I did not initiate the conversation and that perhaps it was a bad time to talk ("Well I'm talking now"). I asked her if she thought going back to church might help, because it seems to be helping me through this ("I don't have time", she said). I did promise her that I was making positive changes in my life as a result of her and others' suggestions and would be a better person going forward irregardless of the results of our marriage. The lack of engagement to fight with her or grovel for forgiveness really got her steamed and she stormed off to bed. Either way, I followed the advise in the books...

 

Not sure that I did the right thing, but I don't think I will be a happy person letting her to run me into the ground via sorrow or guilt. Nor do I think that fighting rather than solving is going to be helpful anymore. I have to get on w/ life and start being happy again. Taken in this light, her behavior was almost amusing. Perhaps it is all in the perspective that you choose to view life's events?

 

She normally buries in her feelings-- that's partially what got us to this point in the first place. Perhaps this venting is a good thing? Did not feel like it. Perhaps she has a need to make me miserable? I don't know. incidentally, I did not tell her about the promotion.

[Stambler]

foobar,

 

I think you did the right thing. I am very proud of you. Remember (this is more for the other folks reading this post) this is not a game, your behavior is not intended to piss her off or upset her, unfortunately it seems to be doing that. I take that as a good sign. She obviously wants you to argue, grovel, and be upset about the marriage. Probably (I suspect) because that makes her feel as if you don’t care. So, be careful, let her know you do care and want to work through this, but make it clear that you respect her desires and you're intent is not to put pressure on her. It's a fine line, be careful. I remember once getting so frustrated I said to my wife "Ya know, I really don’t care about this anymore...”. Even though SHE suggested a divorce, she looked crushed. Not a wise or considerate thing to say, but it showed that she still did care...

 

I've done the same things such as not telling my wife about good things at work (congrats on the promo by the way). Again, not a game, just trying to show that you HAVE changed and things aren't always about YOU. She may feel as if you think "it's always about you" if you were a complainer and whiner in the past (like I was). So, when she does find out just say, I was going to tell you, but there was so much going on in your life I didn’t want to bring it up just yet...

 

Church is a good idea. Praying about this every chance you get is even better. Pray for guidance and understanding, put it in God's hands - he's much better at fixing things than we are! Don't just pray for things to be back to normal - there is a lesson here for you to learn, and you need to understand it before you can have things the way you want them.

 

She may be upset because she feels as if you don't care and she's not getting through to you, so, as I said, be very careful. I would also suggest NOT telling her things such as promising her that you are making positive changes. IF you were a complainer in the past and never did anything to fix your problems, the words mean nothing to her. You need to show her through actions. Don't ask for acknowledgment from her, she will only read that as “Look at ME - how am I doing now? Can we get back to the way things are now?” She will accept it on her own in due time.

 

Keep your chin up and hang in there, you're doing great! I also found that doing spontaneous things together with my son (just me and him) catches her attention (e.g. after swimming lessons I took him to the mall and we had lunch together). It shows that you are capable of having family fun without her. I think my wife felt a bit left out. Although this was NOT intended to make her feel that way, I think it made her think about what things would be like if we were not together.

 

Tonight ask your wife if she's OK, tell her you're concerned for her because she doesn't normally vent. Let her know you're there for her, this is about her feelings, not yours.

[foobar]

Camber-

 

I felt like *rap yesterday before I read your experiences in the other thread. Your experiences and support combined with the book "How to Save Your Marriage Alone" and other advice that I have been getting have been a godsend.

 

As for church, I am not devout or born-again by any means-- 10 yrs of catholic schooling has jaded my view on this considerably-- but the base is there. I guess I need to continue to focus on my core and become myself again.

 

incidentally, she was cordial and cooperative again this morning. We spoke about stuff other than the kids-- nothing relationship-centric-- just TKD and little things like that. Maybe I am pounded the "I am not going to be angry and get on with my life, want to join me?" thing too hard, but I told her I was looking at flying lessons this weekend-- something I had always talked about doing. Why not? I seem to have plenty of time on my hands... She wants to come, I be more than happy to have her join me, if not, oh well.

 

Thanks for being there.

[Stambler]

eNA is great, isn't it?

 

If I can help in any way it, in turn, helps me. I've been on an emotional roller coaster for the past, well, almost year (the drinking thing started last year at this time - although at that time I threatened to leave her because I didn't know what was going on - I wonder if she is holding that in and it has contributed to her being the one who wants to leave?). It was an idle threat to scare her into getting help, but I think women hold onto things like that longer than men.

 

You sound like you have it together more than I. My biggest problem is that my family and her's are physically far away, so I don't have the family support thing goining on. And when I moved to the UK for 4 years, then returned, then moved to another company, I seem to have lost contact with all my old friends.

 

Glad your wife was cordial this AM!

 

So, you've read my threads - any advice for me???

[foobar]

>although at that time I threatened to leave her because I didn't know what

>was going on - I wonder if she is holding that in and it has contributed to

>her being the one who wants to leave. It was an idle threat to scare her

>into getting help, but I think women hold onto things like that longer than

>men.

 

My guess is yes. She is holding on to that. I did similar. I was frustrated at the way mine was holding on to "sins" from 9 or even 12 yrs ago (when we were dating!). The sins were never discussed and thereforeeee forgiven and the pile just got higher. I knew this was happening, and had talked about leaving as well. When I did "walk"-- even though it was for only an hr-- she held on to it, and will for a long time.

 

>any advice for me???

You seem to be the guider at the moment, but if I have anything to say, it is

go to your favorite online bookstore and get "How to Save your Marriage Alone" by Ed Wheat. 51pgs, $3.99, $15 shipping ;-) but well worth it. It will reinforce your strategy of unconditional love. If anything, it grounded me, very, very well. Might as well order "Divorce Busters" while you are there. *Lurkers* should read my previous posts for comments on these two books.

 

I appreciate your help. I will probably be a regular here for a while.

[foobar]

Well, I am surprised.

 

Last night, I was surprised that my wife arranged for the kids to spend the night at her mother's tonight. I figured, ok this is going to be resolved one way or the other.

 

Not so. After spending the morning with the kids, we were each supposed to be out all day. I came home at 7pm, and she was there. We at dinner in front of the TV, talked about normal stuff and went to bed-- under normal circumstances, we would have called this a good evening and perhaps fooled around because the kids were out of the house. It was all very cordial and nice.

 

She chickened out? Changed her mind? A test to see if i would push the relationship issue? Anyone's guess at this point.

 

Camber- seen anything like this on your side?

[Stambler]

I've seen many mood swings. She still cooks nice dinners and arranges family outings all the time. A few weeks ago she arranged a babysitter so we could go out to dinner and a movie. Afterwords she thanked me and said she had a wonderful time. I'm not sure how to read this either.

 

I suspect your wife was hoping (?) that you might bring up the relationship or try to be romantic (leading to sex)? I really don't know.

 

You did the right thing - wait for her to initiate both of these things. If and when she does, don't refuse her on either account - she will feel rejected and hold onto that for a LONG time.

 

Does it seem unfair that we are not supposed to have feelings and not feel rejected and hurt - you bet. But, If that's what it takes to fix things, it's a very short period of time wrt your entire life!

 

Hang in there, be supportive!

[foobar]

Well, she got a pretty good cold. I took the kids out all day under the guise of letting her have the day to herself. Truth is, she does not want me around, and I think that she resents the fact that the kids still love me and want to be w/ me.

 

Anyway, came back home, and her car was gone. She showed up not more than 30 seconds after we did-- "I saw your car on the road and turned around. Can you get me some medicine from the store?". I said yes, I would be happy to, and genuinely was. After I came back, I took the kids for a bike ride (she knew) and retreated upstairs to "give her space". By the end of the nght she was really mad again. It is almost as if she wants me around to keep piling it on... I am not going to last w/ this. But I still can't figure out why she just doesn't go.

[Stambler]

Hang in there foobar!

 

My wife was dooing the same thing - acting upset because I was happy. I think it's a control thing, they want to break up, but can't stand to think that you are OK with it.

 

Could be they are hoping we will change, and don't see it if we beg, plead and act hurt. But they think we just don't care when we get on with our lives. They want us to resist the break-up, but not TOO much!

 

Keep it up and be sure to be loving and supportive - I know it's difficult.

[foobar]

It just got more difficult.

 

She took the day off because of the cold. Part of that was taking the opportunity to have the car serviced. While at the dealer, she started to buy a new car ($45k). She called me and told me about it and that we would be looking at an additional $400-450/mo payments. I calmly said if that's what you want to do, we can talk about it when I get home.

 

My question to the board is WT*? You are not sure if we are staying together but you're buying a car and I have to pay for it?!? The only thing that I can think of is to put it in her name so she takes the loan w/ her. Is this a test to see if I would lose it? Or does she want to buy something new to make herself feel better? Or she is not serious and just window shopping? Those are the only things I can think of. We have always liked cars (I am a car guy, and she always has been too), but, to be charitable, the timing is odd.

 

Wow. Any thoughts on this one? I am currently in a state of shock. This is beginning to sound more and more like a mid-life crisis on her part (working out, wardrobe update, new car, dump old husband...).

[Stambler]

Wow, that is weird!

 

My wife agreed to carry on with the Home Equity loan after telling me she wanted a divorce. Funny thing is, she knows we can't afford to split up and keep the house. She has also been very excited about fixing up the house, buying furniture, making plans for next year. I too am confused...

 

The most sense I can make of this is recklessness as a result of a potential major life upheaval???? In other words, our spouses are so convinced that they hate their lives with us they are going to go out and paint the town to make up for it??? Perhaps they can't bear the thought of actually splitting up, but they feel they need to pamper themselves to compensate for their misery???

 

I just don't know.

 

Why don't you ask her why she is buying a new expensive car if she asked for a divorce? That's fair game for "bringing up" the relationship. I did the same about the HEL, of course she just laughed and said "Oh… stop it"

[abuhar]

Hello guys,

It was interesting to read dialog between two reasonable and confused men. I have been always surprised with the relationships like that. What exactly I mean is that in families like yours people can crazy from not having something very important. I would call it: lack of spiritual goal, which has nothing with religion, but something opposite to material things.

I think your wives are bored and thereforeeee find any reasons to be miserable no matter what you do, unless something happens. You worry too much about them and yourself but in fact they seek for something higher than both you and them and even your children. Unfortunately you may not understand me, or this sounds too banal, but the truth is that there is lack of the truth in your relationships and thereforeeee lack of goodness.

 

I would, in your shoes, try to think first about what actually is my goal and sense of life. Then i would engage kids in meaningful activities, or "projects". I would be busy, so that I would not have time to feel sorry about myself or her or our family, but would do really interesting important job. I don't know what exactly, but I am saying that while you are talking about things, which seemmm to you important, you better change your activities and your wives would find your intereating people and forget their "sickness".

 

I see something like injustice in your relationships. I am sure, intuitively your wives feel same. Even if they are injust themsselves, they don't like that you don't do anything about that.

what I am indifferent is: you kids too feel that injustice, that insincerreness in your relationship. That is fake and thereforeeee injust for your kids. It doesn't do any good for them.

 

sorry, I didn't mean moralizing, but I am not indifferent, I wish I could help.

[Stambler]

Huh?

 

Sorry abuhar, but I didn't get any of that. I tried, because it sounded like useful information, but I just didn't get the point.

 

I know why my wife feels the way she does about our relationship, and I am doing everything to change - with much success. It's just taking a long time. I have renewed my interests and hobbies, my spiritual journey (with God), have really learned patience and understanding, spend a great deal of time with my son, getting back into shape, got a new job which I love...if you read my threads you will see all this.

 

But please, do tell, what are you on about?

[abuhar]

I apologise in advance that I have not read everything what you write about your relationships, and that I am just pondering about such kind of families. I hope that my thoughts may open eyes on some truth. Maybe?

I am curious, what is going wrong in some moderm american, european families in general. There is an impression that men are suffering from women taking over leadership in families. Good caring husbands are abandoned by strong women, who inside of their hearts hope to be weak and loved by strong and loving men. However they also want to be strong and independent. This is confusing them and others.

I think, what I mean by the word justice - it is equality of personalities in the relationship. Not physical equality of wife and husband, not financial equality (which in most cases released wives from being dependent from husbands), I mean spiritual level of equality. It has nothing to do with religion, I repeat, nothing about visiting church and believe in God. I mean human spirit. Spirit- you may call it - drive, or courage, or will, whatever word, but the essense is still same, it is human spirit. It is an internal striving for something higher than me, higher than my wife (or husband), even above my children, though I won't replace children, it is just not comparable.

What you list: hobbies, interests, it is allright, but it is still, to my opinion, level of material things, like toys, which are important to you, to your friends, but it is not as inspiring as, for example, to write a book, which would help many people, or, for example, to strive to become president, or at least governor - so to influence a nation for the better goals, than they are now. Or, let's say something more realistic: establish a business, which will serve millions, or at least thousands people for a better purposes, sell a perfect thing for people's utility, what a wonderful example to tell your kid that "this is what I am doing, son." Something really important, more than your own personal interests. Am I clear?

That is of course not enough. Some people work just honestly at their position and still maintain their dignity very high. Maybe the magic word is dignity? Your wives are not respectful because you don't realise your own dignities, that is, your values, worthyness. From my point of view, you are very good husbands, both of you, hoping to improve relationships, because you love your kids and families. But the problem in your families are from not having justice, or equalities of personalities of spouses. (I address you, guys, because it is easier to me to generalize, because I might not know some peculiarities) So, I continue: one of you are better than another spouse- here is the problem. Better - means - being able to love, (which include to respect, to appreciate, listen and work for changes), and another part - is not able to love. That may sound scary, but this is my discovery, that the truth is painful. I suppose that you are very good caring loving husbands and your wives are not able to appreciate it. So they invent all kind of reasons to abandon you. The reasons could be : I don't deserve this man, or, this man doesn't deserve me (Inequality of personalities, not equal spirits)

I know I try to be clear, but this is such a subject, which is more philosophical and thereefore needs skills in explanation.

I repeat, one reason that your wives intuitively realise that you are too good for them, another reason is that you are not enough having that spiritual drive (Please don't refer to God, I don't mean religion). By spiritual drive I mean strong feelings, strong interest in somethong that is REAL thing, examples I listed above. That would impress women, because when a spiritually strong woman lives with a man, who just want to fit her, to please her, it is not enough for her. Not because she doesn't need your pleasing, she needs REAL man around. Especially in the developed economy, when living is relatively easy, woman is not occupied with everyday survival, she begins to look for meaning, for REAL thing, for REAL man, and "pleasing" huzband is only for keeping her kids and family, but not for soul.

 

There is a saying of men: "the less we love woman, the more she likes us." It is not because woman wants man to not love her, but because woman wants man to be man, to have strong spirit, to be an inspiring example for her kids.

 

That is what I wanted to tell, and I will try again if it is any help. Thank you for attention.

[Stambler]

Interesting abuhar, very interesting. Two of the many reasons my wife gave was that I didn't have a "life" anymore, and that I was too needy. Funny, I gave up my "life" things to be able to attend to her (she was lonely in a new country and depressed...). She wanted more attention, but it turned her off when I gave it to her..

[abuhar]

It is very sad. She was depressed and lonely... and you gave life and now she is not depressed but you are depressed... Life is so unfair. But we people do life fair or unfair. According to your messages, she is not fair. however, it is her own problem, which she had before (being depressed is a sign of quality of character, not the real situation). Now, when she is more independent she disrespects you. Hmm, perhaps, inside she still feels she doesn't deserve you, or she just not able to love, as I mentioned. This sound like she is unfair, in fact, this is a big trouble - not ability to love back. she just can't find resources in heart, this is possible. I am pondering, don't take my words closely, I am just curious about how strange people are. I have an idea that she might even be jealous for you being so kind and good for her, as she believes she doesn't deserve this. I think it is psychological trap. She does everything to prove HER own theory, instead of growing spiritually, she is stuck in her own thoery, which she might not even realise! Here is trouble!

Well, I better stop. again, don't take anything said seriously, only if it makes sense to you.

[abuhar]

One intelligent man said, when mothers complain about giving their lives for children and they grow thankless, that the problem was not that they loved children too much, but that they loved only children...

Moral is love spoils when you love only one person in this world. It means you should love also yourself, and other people, in general. If this is not clear, than it is too soon to say, sorry.