The Friendship Trap

[Stompy1]

So, I'm pretty enamoured of my friends new housemate. But, unfortunately I seem to have become embroiled within the realms of the friendship trap. Despite what seemed to be some initial chemistry we seem to have come to a "we're really good friends stage". Though I seem to still be at the I want to be more than friends stage.

 

So, what I'm asking people is how can I break the cycle. These things don't often happen but let's pool our thoughts and find me a way out of this. You never know, we might help some other people in the same situation while we're at it.

[DN]

Ask him or her out on a date. The answer will probably tell you all you need to know. Does your frriend know how you feel?

[Stompy1]

I have told her how I feel and she has told me that she really likes me but doesn't want to cause any problems in her flat bcause I'm there to see my friend quite often and we all go out together.

That's the most frustrating thing - I know she does actually like me. Should I just wait it out?

[PocoDiablo]

You've been friendzoned already. At this point I would say you don't have a chance because a few things may have already occurred:

 

1. You did not ask her on a date when you first met - or at least you did not within the 2-3 initial meetings. As a result, she saw you as a guy who did not like her. So, even if she did like you, she lumped you into the friendzone to protect her feelings. Remember, if you saw some hot girl and she never talked to you, don't you think you'd say "I must be too ugly for her" or something. Well, she may have done the same thing.

 

2. She is probably just not interested in you. If she were, you'd have chemistry and would be flirting.

 

3. You did not flirt and make your intentions clear from the beginning. A man who is interested makes it clear who he wants. Did you?

 

I've talked to this a little in some of my other posts, you might want to review some of them to see if they ring true in your case. And, of course, if you were to post a lot more details would be helpful.

[Stompy1]

Thanks for your comments.

I think comment 1) is probably the most valid. There has been rather a large amount of flirting recently tho. Spent most of the day in bed with her the other day after a heavy night on the town. Nothing happened apart from cuddling but we were very close. However, she has since apologised for being "inappropriate", whatever that means.

I'm almost certain that she likes me but just doesn't want to cause problems in her flat. I just hate the thought of finding someone, after quite a while being single who I actually like and not making a go at it.

[PocoDiablo]

You're most welcome.

 

You know, after reading your post, something came to mind. It occurred to me that guys have simply no clue what dating is all about. The thing that set me off was when you said "I just hate the thought of finding someone ... who I actually like..." This is why I think you've forgotten what dating is all about.

 

The purspose of dating is to meet lots of women and get to know them. What so many guys do nowadays is to avoid dating all together, and then get to know a woman, and then - of course - they find one they like but the feelings are not reciprocated because you've already non-verbally communicated to the woman that she is worthless in some way, otherwise you would have asked her on a date!

 

Once you have friendzoned yourself, then the whole relationship changes. Flirting? Harmless, maybe even for practice as far as she is concerned. Spending the day in bed with her? Wow. Look, only two types of people are going to end up in a bed with a woman:

 

1. A lover

2. A child or other non-threatening, harmless person.

 

Since you clearly were not a lover ... yeah, all done here. She apologized for being inappropriate because she realized she was acting slightly like you were her lover. But, just like a mother would apologize to her child, you too got the same routine.

 

Maybe she does like you, it's hard to say. I know she probably cares for you as an immature male, a non-Alpha male, but that's as far as I can see it going.

 

You have the typical case of moving way too slow with women and not asking them out. No big deal, but I think you just need to recognize it and use dating for what it is meant to be for: Finding someone who you actually like AND being able to take it a step further as an adult male.

[Dating Coach]

If you told her that you like her and her answer wasn't a "yes" then her answer is a "no", no matter what excuse she gave you.

[ShySoul]

You are not "friendzoned." Being friends is not a death sentence or a reason to think it will never work out. There are ways around anything, and if she admits to liking you, then there is certainly hope.

 

Her words are not an excuse, they are most likely honestly what she is concerned about. I assume the roommate is a female? And that they are close friends? She really could be worried about hurting that friendship. Should things get serious with you two then things would naturally change. All of you going out together would be different and the friend may end up being a third wheel, which would hurt. She may be trying to look out for and protect her friend. Or maybe the friend likes you and she is worried about what that would do? There could be various reason, all logical. I think its too easy to instantly label it the "friend trap," blame it all on the fact that you are her friend, and to say she isn't interested and that you need to forget it and move on.

 

Look at it this way. Why would she spend the entire day in bed cuddling with you if she wasn't interested in you? I'm friends with a lot of girls, more girls then guys. And none of them invite me to cuddle with them. Of the two girls I have cuddled with, both of them liked me. In fact, they said they loved me. Cuddling is something intimate and special, its not just something you do with any old person. It doesn't make you weak or less of a man. If anything it makes you more of a man that you didn't try to do anything. What those girls who I cuddled with said to me was that they liked that fact that they could spend hours in my arms and not worry that I was going to make a move or expected anything else, that I was content to just be with them and hold them.

 

Believe me, if you are nice to a women and treat her with respect, taking your time, being her friend, and working through the issues that come up.... you will be rewarded in ways that other guys who don't do such things and who give up so easily under the false assumption that its all because they were friends and that they weren't being an alpha male....well, lets just say women reward nice guys in very pleasing ways.

[PocoDiablo]

Her words are not an excuse, they are most likely honestly what she is concerned about. I assume the roommate is a female? And that they are close friends? She really could be worried about hurting that friendship.

Well, I can see your point of view, but if her friendship is so fragile that her dating this guy is going to ruin it, then what kind of friendship is that? If the friendship was strong and true, then the friend would probably say "Oh, you like him? I am so happy for you! I hope you date him and have a great time!" I know if I were the friend I would do that. I would never be so cruel to a friend to tell them that if they found true love they could not date because of me. That would seem selfish and immature on the surface, and probably a lot worse. So, to me, that sounds like an excuse.

 

If a woman is interested in a guy, she will make steps to be with him. She will easily make a date with him. About the only reason why I could think her friend might be a (hypothetical) reason in this case would be if they were dating! Yeah, that could be a problem, but somehow this does not seem to be the case, does it?

 

There could be various reason, all logical.

Men are logical, women are emotional. If a woman feels like it is right to be with a man, I bet she's going to spend time with him. If not, she's going to make an excuse so as not to hurt his feelings. Right? Exactly, his feeling because women care about that. Men just think logically. That is our downfall!

 

I think its too easy to instantly label it the "friend trap," blame it all on the fact that you are her friend, and to say she isn't interested and that you need to forget it and move on.

So answers can never be easy? Sometimes the easiest answers are right.

 

Look at it this way. Why would she spend the entire day in bed cuddling with you if she wasn't interested in you?

Why would she do that with a girlfriend? Same thing, different person. Same end results.

 

What those girls who I cuddled with said to me was that they liked that fact that they could spend hours in my arms and not worry that I was going to make a move or expected anything else, that I was content to just be with them and hold them.

Exactly, you're a great friend and they appreciate that. That's a wonderful thing, don't get me wrong, but this guy wants more than just to be friends.

 

Believe me, if you are nice to a women and treat her with respect, taking your time, being her friend, and working through the issues that come up.... you will be rewarded

Absolutely correct. These are all traits of a gentleman. But what good is it in this case if he acts like a friend? He wants a girlfriend.

 

Look, anyone can make friends. It's easy! Anyone can do it! That's not a problem! Figuring out how to be a lover is much more difficult and requires a different point of view. And sometimes ... believe it or not ... it's just that simple.

[ShySoul]

Poco! Buddy! How you doing?

 

Men are logical, women are emotional.

 

Very broad generalization. I was just talking to a girl last night who said her boyfriend was highly emotional, much more emotional then logical. I know women who are more logical then emotional. I myself try to connect the best of both worlds, but can be swayed at various times one way or the other. Actually, in my experience women have been the more logical gender as they seem to think things out more. Men seem to be the more emotional ones, they just hide it behind a tough guy exterior because they don't want to appear emotional as if it is a blow to there manhood.

 

I know if I were the friend I would do that. I would never be so cruel to a friend to tell them that if they found true love they could not date because of me. That would seem selfish and immature on the surface, and probably a lot worse. So, to me, that sounds like an excuse.

 

I don't know the girls, so I'm just saying that it could be a valid concern on their part. I wouldn't think the friend is saying that, she is probably even encouraging the relationship. But maybe the girl is worried anyways? Maybe she is the type of person who questions everything and doesn't want to risk it, even when it probably wouldn't be a problem to begin with? Maybe it is an excuse, maybe it isn't. I'm just saying keep an open mind unless you have concret proof that she isn't interested. But this one thing seems minor in comparison to the other nudges in the right direction that has been given.

 

If a woman feels like it is right to be with a man, I bet she's going to spend time with him.

 

All day in bed cuddling. Sound like spending time with him and sounds promising.

 

So answers can never be easy? Sometimes the easiest answers are right.

 

Sometimes. But situations are complex. Blaming it on being someone's friend first gets thrown around too much. There are other factors to consider that are going to play way bigger roles then the friendship thing ever could. A girl tried to use the "we are better as friends" thing on me. I didn't but that for a minute and sure enough, once I got under the surface I discovered layer after layer of insecurities and issues that was really holding her back. The friendship wasn't what hurt the relationship, it is what kept it going. All I'm saying is to look at everything else, the total picture before saying being friends is the problem.

 

Why would she do that with a girlfriend? Same thing, different person. Same end results.

 

Um... huh? Girls spend all day cuddling in bed? Are they lesbians? Nice image.... but I don't see the point.

 

Lying next to someone and holding them is a pleasure that can't be put into words. The end result? You get a lot closer and there is a level of intimacy and trust between you that wasn't there before. This is a great thing, and a positive sign.

 

Exactly, you're a great friend and they appreciate that. That's a wonderful thing, don't get me wrong, but this guy wants more than just to be friends.

 

And I didn't? With the first girl I was jumping out of my skin, longing to be with her forever. We said we loved each other and at various points weddings were being discussed. Second girl, again we said we loved each other. Cuddling can get you very far. It's great foreplay.

 

Figuring out how to be a lover is much more difficult and requires a different point of view.

 

Ah. Being a lover isn't any different then being a friend. It isn't more difficult and doesn't require a different point of view. One of those girls said something to be along the gist of be a friend, a real, true friend, a gentleman.... and the girl has a great chance of falling for you. Being a lover is something that will come in time and being a friend and a gentleman puts you on the right track.

 

And you know that when I was saying be a friend and help them through and you will be rewarded in pleasing ways.... I was talking about as a lover and in both romantic and sexual ways.

[PocoDiablo]

Poco! Buddy! How you doing?

Hey dude! What's up!

 

Very broad generalization.

You should never refer to women as a "broad".

 

I was just talking to a girl last night who said her boyfriend was highly emotional, much more emotional then logical. I know women who are more logical then emotional. I myself try to connect the best of both worlds, but can be swayed at various times one way or the other. Actually, in my experience women have been the more logical gender as they seem to think things out more. Men seem to be the more emotional ones, they just hide it behind a tough guy exterior because they don't want to appear emotional as if it is a blow to there manhood.

Agreed. I mean, it's not like people aren't all, but - yes - I was making a generalization to try and illustrate the point I was making.

 

I don't know the girls, so I'm just saying that it could be a valid concern on their part. I wouldn't think the friend is saying that, she is probably even encouraging the relationship. But maybe the girl is worried anyways? Maybe she is the type of person who questions everything and doesn't want to risk it, even when it probably wouldn't be a problem to begin with? Maybe it is an excuse, maybe it isn't. I'm just saying keep an open mind unless you have concret proof that she isn't interested. But this one thing seems minor in comparison to the other nudges in the right direction that has been given.

Ah, gotcha. I guess I got hung up on this because it just seemed... odd... you know? I mean, it did not make much sense. So I flagged it.

 

All day in bed cuddling. Sound like spending time with him and sounds promising.

Yes and no ... It seems like more of a tease to me, you know?

 

Um... huh? Girls spend all day cuddling in bed? Are they lesbians? Nice image.... but I don't see the point.

Well, not *exactly* but you know what I mean. Girls often do spend much more quality time together, but in the name of friendship. No, not lesbians, they're a lot more wild.

 

Lying next to someone and holding them is a pleasure that can't be put into words. The end result? You get a lot closer and there is a level of intimacy and trust between you that wasn't there before. This is a great thing, and a positive sign.

Agreed, but then apologizing afterwards? That was a bad sign, like she felt like she made a mistake.

 

With the first girl I was jumping out of my skin, longing to be with her forever. We said we loved each other and at various points weddings were being discussed. Second girl, again we said we loved each other. Cuddling can get you very far. It's great foreplay.

See, you also wanted more, and if you're a respectful man (as I can tell you are) then things can work out. But you would never lie to a woman, right? You'd tell her the truth that you thought you would make a good couple. That's all I mean. Just to be honest, to be upfront (to some extent, not blatent or rude), and be mature about it.

 

Ah. Being a lover isn't any different then being a friend. It isn't more difficult and doesn't require a different point of view. One of those girls said something to be along the gist of be a friend, a real, true friend, a gentleman.... and the girl has a great chance of falling for you. Being a lover is something that will come in time and being a friend and a gentleman puts you on the right track.

This is exactly my philosophy. Sometimes it gets lost in the translation, or lack of details, but this is SOOOO right. So many guys just need to learn that, and it takes time.

 

And you know that when I was saying be a friend and help them through and you will be rewarded in pleasing ways.... I was talking about as a lover and in both romantic and sexual ways.

I didn't catch that, my bad.

 

Bottom line for ME is exactly what you said - be a gentleman. To me that means being confident, restraint, and fun ... among other things ... basically being an adult.

[ShySoul]

You should never refer to women as a "broad".

 

Lame joke for the day. Come on everyone, let's all groan at the same time.

 

I was making a generalization to try and illustrate the point I was making.

 

My attempt at a lame joke: Making generalizations is the same as assuming things. And you know what happens when you assume? You make an a ** out of u and me.

 

Yes and no ... It seems like more of a tease to me, you know?

 

You say tease, I say foreplay. I just know the hours I spent cuddling wasn't out of just friendship, there were feelings behind it. Never cuddled with a friend, have cuddled with people where there was a mutual attraction.

 

Well, not *exactly* but you know what I mean. Girls often do spend much more quality time together, but in the name of friendship. No, not lesbians, they're a lot more wild

 

Oh, ok then. But there is a difference between quality time in the name of friendship, and cuddling in bed together for hours. Don't think girls who are friends do the latter (though if you have proof to the contrary, you can show me ). So cuddling means more then friendship.

 

Agreed, but then apologizing afterwards? That was a bad sign, like she felt like she made a mistake.

 

Have to consider other factors. Was it a mistake because she doesn't like him? Or was it because she is afraid of getting to close and getting hurt, this figuring it is better to cut back now before it goes any further? First one, not good. Second one, still plenty of hope, just takes time to work through things until she isn't so afraid.

 

But you would never lie to a woman, right? You'd tell her the truth that you thought you would make a good couple

 

Believe thats already been done in the situation. And she has given reason to believe it would be good as well. I'm saying that you have to be careful and work with her, cause her uneasiness may cause her to pull back if you start being forward.

 

Sometimes it gets lost in the translation, or lack of details, but this is SOOOO right. So many guys just need to learn that, and it takes time.

 

Not to be rude, but I think it gets lost in translation because of the way you go about saying it. If you simple said, be a gentleman, treat her with respect, etc., then more people would hear it. But you often go into other tangents that people don't want to hear and that causes your other good messages to be drowned out. A lot of the time you are addressing shy and nice guys. As one of them myself, I feel that what you say can often seem like more of an attack on the person. Someone who is like that tends to be sensitive and unsure of themselves. They don't respond well to things like being called a "child" or being told they are not a "real man." The directness and bluntness of your posts can also be disconcerting. And you often go into things that don't even seem to relate to the topic at hand.

 

I find it more effective if you take a gentler approach with these kinds of people. Think about it like this, if you are at a job, do you want your boss to come into the office and start belittling you, telling you that you are not a real employee, that you need to change your work habits now, etc.? Or would you rather the boss come in, sit down with you and have a talk with you, complimenting your strong points, building a relationship, and politely suggesting or working with you to thing of ways that you could improve your performance. I think most would prefer the second, especially people who are sensitive to begin with.

 

Ok, Stompy1. Sorry if it seems like you are being ignored here. Anything I say is meant to help you in the best way I can think of. I really hope it works out for you and please give us an update.

[Stompy1]

Hey guys. Thanks for all your comments. Seen as you asked, I'll give you an update.

Spent most of the weekend with this girl and a few other friends and I have to say that we were a little awkward around each other. I think we were both a little unsure as to whether we should try to be less affectionate and as a result it felt a bit strange.

However, she actually had a date at this party we went to and she basically told him to go home later on (even gave him money for a taxi!) then we spent a couple hours in bed together chatting. Is that good? Or did she just want someone to vent at?

I am going to ask her out on a date today. If what she says is true and she does like me then why wait? I'll let you know how it turns out.

Any more comments/suggestions would be most welcome. Just reading through what you guys have written makes me feel more positive about it.

[PocoDiablo]

The fact that she sent her "date" packing with "lunch money" suggests to me that he blew it. She was motherly to a child, in a way, and I think whatever he did was too bad for him.

 

Ask her out and then let us know. Of course, if we don't hear from you we'll assume it went well and you're spending time with her and not us - a good thing!

[Stompy1]

Well, I asked and she said no. She just sees me as a friend. Oh well, at least I know now.

Thanks to poco and shysoul for the posts. I think I need a beer now

[PocoDiablo]

Call a friend and hang out. Tell him and see if he can help you for the next time.

 

And remember, this was a GREAT thing of you to do. It was very mature, honest, and up front. The only thing that went wrong was that she was not interested in you. This may happen a few times again with other women, but as long as you chat with more people and get to know them, you'll be able to do it easier next time.

 

Remember, if she turns you down it's her loss. You're the prize here.

[novaseeker]

Well, I asked and she said no. She just sees me as a friend. Oh well, at least I know now.

Thanks to poco and shysoul for the posts. I think I need a beer now

 

Hey knowledge is power! Best to get these things out in the open sooner rather than later ... and now you know not to pursue this one as a love interest any further.

[Dating Coach]

Well, I asked and she said no. She just sees me as a friend. Oh well, at least I know now.

Thanks to poco and shysoul for the posts. I think I need a beer now

 

As Poco and I said, "friendzoned". Sorry it didn't work out for you Stompy, better luck next time. I do want to congratulate you on taking the intitiative to find out what her answer was before wasting too much time. Good job there and keep that part up.

[ShySoul]

Not friendzoned, just not compatible. Blaming friendship is an easy out when situations are always more complex. Don't think that being friends with her is what caused it to not work out.

 

Anyways, at least you know. Now you can at least stop the headaches and wondering what to do. And I'll join you for that beer, just make mines a rootbeer please.

[Dating Coach]

ShySoul, I have a question if you don't mind.

 

Maybe I am getting the wrong impression here but to me it seems that you never think that women are being misleading or aren't being truthful. As in this situation when the girl said, "I really like you but don't want to cause any problems in my flat." when he asked her out. When we said that this was her excuse for not being interested you countered with: "Her words are not an excuse, they are most likely honestly what she is concerned about." This is a trend I see with your posts and it occurred to me that maybe you are holding women up on this pedastle above guys. I saw this before with a guys post about the girl who couldn't find time to hang out with him other than at her house. You advised the guy to keep trying to work it out with her. But on another thread, a guy was doing this to a girl, only hanging out with her on his terms, and she was getting frustrated and the advice you gave her was not near as supportive to the "ignorer" in the situation. You were far more supportive of women in both these situations. It just got me wondering if you think of women on a "higher level" as guys. What do you think?

[Dating Coach]

Not friendzoned, just not compatible. Blaming friendship is an easy out when situations are always more complex. Don't think that being friends with her is what caused it to not work out.

 

She thinks of him as "just friends", hence, "friendzoned". Just wanted to clarify.