Navigating conversations about wanting children while dating in your 30s

[Tinydance]

1 minute ago, camouflage said:

The fear runs quite deep due to my previous relationship, where I feel like I wasted a few years. My ex kept postponing everything: "I have no idea if I want it in 2025, not in 2026 either, nor in 2027. We'll see, I don't even know if I want kids!"

That can be a stance, but I find it a horrible way of communicating in a relationship, especially during such crucial years of your life, creating so much unnecessary uncertainty. Why would you put each other through that instead of offering all the certainty in the world? I never understood that.

 

 

Well the thing is your ex was more an opposite extreme. If you have a line and on one end you have women who don't want kids and on the other end you have women who desperately want kids, most women would be in the middle. I think you do need to talk to a therapist because you seem to have an irrational fear of the same thing as what happened with your ex. The same as people who were cheated on expect every person they date to cheat on them. 

[camouflage]

5 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Well the thing is your ex was more an opposite extreme. If you have a line and on one end you have women who don't want kids and on the other end you have women who desperately want kids, most women would be in the middle. I think you do need to talk to a therapist because you seem to have an irrational fear of the same thing as what happened with your ex. The same as people who were cheated on expect every person they date to cheat on them. 

So, you mean I’m scaring off all the nice women with a normal desire to have children?

[Tinydance]

Just now, camouflage said:

So, you mean I’m scaring off all the nice women with a normal desire to have children?

 

 

No I actually didn't mean that. I meant that you seem to have a huge anxiety that another woman will waste your time and won't have kids. Apart from your own fears I actually don't see that there are any issues here. You're still a young guy and you're dating women of child bearing age. You want kids in 2 - 3 years which is very normal. Seems like everything is fine but yet you're in a lot of stress and worry about it.

[camouflage]

3 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

No I actually didn't mean that. I meant that you seem to have a huge anxiety that another woman will waste your time and won't have kids. Apart from your own fears I actually don't see that there are any issues here. You're still a young guy and you're dating women of child bearing age. You want kids in 2 - 3 years which is very normal. Seems like everything is fine but yet you're in a lot of stress and worry about it.

Not much is going wrong either. I get much more attractive women on the apps who want to chat with me than I did 5 years ago, so my age seems to be an absolute advantage. Even many women who seem more sexually active and send excited/dirty messages. I hadn’t experienced that before. (But maybe that makes sense because women in my age group often have a lot of sexual experience already.)

So, in principle, I have plenty of options. And the women respond in a nice and realistic way. They’re just not desperate, hahaha. They just say 'I’ll see' or 'with the right man, I’m open to it.'

But of course, I want to hear something more certain. So, that’s probably a bit unrealistic of me.

[Tinydance]

4 minutes ago, camouflage said:

Not much is going wrong either. I get much more attractive women on the apps who want to chat with me than I did 5 years ago, so my age seems to be an absolute advantage. Even many women who seem more sexually active and send excited/dirty messages. I hadn’t experienced that before. (But maybe that makes sense because women in my age group often have a lot of sexual experience already.)

So, in principle, I have plenty of options. And the women respond in a nice and realistic way. They’re just not desperate, hahaha. They just say 'I’ll see' or 'with the right man, I’m open to it.'

But of course, I want to hear something more certain. So, that’s probably a bit unrealistic of me.

 

 

Does your country have paid dating apps? Usually people on those apps want to settle down because they're spending money so they're very serious. Also do you meet women in real life too? It's good you're so focused on your goals but don't forget there is life happening outside of the apps too lol

[catfeeder]

2 hours ago, camouflage said:

Within 2 or 3 years starting to try it. (also depending on age, for a 30-year-old woman I really hope within 2 years).

This sounds reasonable. You're comfortable discussing this, and you want to do so respectfully. One of your screening devices can be asking where she sees herself over the next 5 years. Then answer that question yourself, and include the statement above. See how it lands with her.

But then, if she sounds like a 'possible' match, please zip it on the kids thing for a while--long enough to get a well-rounded feel for ALL aspects of one another over the course of your next few dates. Pounding it will not make it happen any faster--that's where you need to get a grip.

2 hours ago, camouflage said:

The fear runs quite deep due to my previous relationship...

This ^^^ is the stuff that can sink you in terms of pushing away even the most aligned and viable match for you--if she's healthy. Yes, you resent wasting years on the wrong person, but that's all the MORE reason not to allow your fear to drive your dating experiences. Otherwise, you'll just waste those, too, by coming off like a one-note who can't see past his agenda.

There is nothing 'wrong' with what you want, but your fears have prejudiced you to view fertility windows so strictly that you're hard-lining one segment of your dating pool. And yes, the majority of that segment is more commonly focused on self-development rather than motherhood at her stage of life. So, to compensate, you'll need to date enough women to tap into the minority of that segment. But 'she' does exist within that niche.

I'd treat this less like a tragedy and more like the challenge it is for every person to reduce their dating pool all the way down to a niche of ONE.

Don't blow this by coming off like a single-minded agenda-seeker rather than the reasonable, smart and wonderful guy you are. Consider @bluecastle's suggestion to seek a good 'wingman' in the form of a counselor or therapist. Bounce your fears and experiences off this person and allow him or her to help you find the differences between being goal-oriented versus fear-driven so that this won't mess you up.

[mylolita]

6 hours ago, camouflage said:

Not much is going wrong either. I get much more attractive women on the apps who want to chat with me than I did 5 years ago, so my age seems to be an absolute advantage. Even many women who seem more sexually active and send excited/dirty messages. I hadn’t experienced that before. (But maybe that makes sense because women in my age group often have a lot of sexual experience already.)

So, in principle, I have plenty of options. And the women respond in a nice and realistic way. They’re just not desperate, hahaha. They just say 'I’ll see' or 'with the right man, I’m open to it.'

But of course, I want to hear something more certain. So, that’s probably a bit unrealistic of me.

 

 

Hey camouflage,

 

As many men age, on average, their ease of dating and having access and success with women tends to go up. Generally. Mostly because they are more confident, mostly because they are more likely to be established in career or business, more likely to own a house, more likely to be financial stable, more likely to be serious minded about settling down, and more likely to want something long term - and yes - more likely to want children. 
 

There is a reason why a lot of hook up and casual culture happens in the teens and twenties. There is a reason for the “sewing your wild oats” stereotype being linked to young adults. People get all that out of their system, find maybe it was a disappointment or that they’ve had enough of empty sexual experiences without meaning, and decide to start looking for someone for the long haul. 
 

You have to go with your heart here and what your goals are. You’re going to have to become a very good judge of character on dates, maybe get into the serious questions by date 3/4 to decide whether you spend more time cultivating something (is she wanting marriage, is she wanting children etc) and go from there. A lot of people float around dating for many decades. In my opinion when you want to start a family you need to become quite ruthless regarding your time and standards. There is no room for trivialities like “let’s explore where this takes us” in the vague, unspecified dating sense that can last for a year or two. You need someone like minded and that blows you away! 
 

It sounds like, you have great options and a great response from women, so this is very positive. I don’t see why you won’t be able to date like minded women at all! 
 

There are plenty of women out there like me who put family first instead of career, or decide they will have a career later in life (in their 40s) rather than their 20s and 30s. You need to sieve out the women on dates who are not interested in family soon and head for the woman who wants to be a mother and sees that as a priority! They’re out there just, maybe a bit more few and far between in todays western feminist society. 
 

I think you’ll do it! 
 

x

[mylolita]

7 hours ago, Tinydance said:

Yes I'm a mother of a 2-year-old boy. I just don't talk about it that much here unless it comes up, like in this thread lol I'm in a civil partnership but I'm not married on paper. I respect your views but I just don't completely agree with them lol I remember you mentioning that you're bisexual so I find it interesting that you really think a nuclear family is the best. I'm pansexual and a lot of my friends are gay, bi or transgender. A lot of my friends are also polyamorous (I'm not). There are different shapes and sizes to a family. Like, single women who used a donor, same gender parents, single fathers, grandparents raising a child, and so on. Ideally of course you'd want two parents who are actually together but it doesn't always end up that way.

Also having children isn't the only happiness in life and some people just don't want children. So people with no children might  be giving certain advice not because they're ignorant but because they truly are happy WITHOUT children.

Also OP did say he's not actually religious or traditional in lifestyle sense. He just said he really wants children.

I thought you were because you have mentioned it but wasn’t sure!

 

So you fall into the modern woman camp Batya also falls into which is, motherhood much later in life. Which is fine and quite standard now. Every single one of my friends and classmates from school have just recently started becoming mothers (age 35) and over half are also unmarried. With the fall of religion as you know, in secular western societies, people aren’t feeling the urge to get married. 
 

Personally I think it is a beautiful and very romantic statement, to make a pledge, a vow - promises - in front of witnesses and loved ones, to always be there for each other. I think it solidifies and adds seriousness to a relationship and, I always advocate for marriage and the concept of marriage, even though again, I am not religious. I think the sentiment and solidifying nature of it is vital for a couple, a great once in a lifetime ritual of commitment. 
 

But anyway, if people don’t want to do that anymore these days, like many other things - it’s their personal call. Again, I think for most couples, it’s actually a hugely positive thing, but some can be satisfied being legal partners or in a kind of eternal boyfriend and girlfriend live in stage. 
 

I really also advocate, and the advice I give camouflage is opposite to what, respectfully, yourself has done, and many modern women do - and to actually try and focus on marriage and children sooner rather than later. There are massive benefits to this that go unspoken about, one being the obvious - if you want siblings or more than one child, it takes the pressure off the woman and she can space them out without biological worry. Two, once your children are teens or young adults, you yourself are not old and can enjoy a “second half” of midlife with energy and health to hopefully pursue further career goals and other hobbies, and also hopefully be there for grandchildren without being too elderly. 
 

Of course, no health is set in stone simply dependent on age. You could pass away at 30 or live happily to 100. Who’s to say. But for me, the benefits are great starting marriage and family life younger. As long as you’re with the right partner, of course. No good to settle fast just because you “need” to have children. That’s definitely not the way either. 
 

Being bi-sexual is a none thing for me. I am probably 10% sexually attracted to women. I have gay and lesbian friends. Some don’t get it either, but they are the type who are quite evenly split in their attraction to the opposite sex, or lean heavily more the opposite way. 
 

There is no way in hell I would even have dated a woman, let alone marry or start a family (how, by the way? Who carried the baby? Whose eggs do we use?! And whose sperm?!) and I had a few chances in my teens and early 20s. Character attributes, the way women generally are in relationships (myself included) seem like a nightmare mix when it’s doubly combined. There is a reason for men and women creating a type of “ying and yang” affect. It works extremely well when it’s done well. My son needs a father figure just like he needs the comfort of his Mum. And my daughters need me for their hair curling and their little girlie mini shopping trips and gymnastic lesson try outs, and need my husband to hold them safely and offer that fatherly, Daddies security blanket and affection often girls need from their fathers. 
 

It’s a controversial thing to say these days, but again it’s just my opinion. 
 

I know gay couples and the children seem unhappy and unbalanced. My daughter has in her year, a boy who has two Dads (not sure who the mother is, who carried the baby and who’s sperm was used, who is half biologically his etc) and he is wayward. We also have a Mum Mum coupling. And ironically, we have just sold our house to a lesbian couple who have two children (twins, I suspect through IVF as twins are far more likely through this process).

 

Raising babies can be complicated enough. I don’t think they need all that extra and different put on them by adults who decide they want to be parents no matter what, so turn to science because they can’t organically have nature make it so. Seems unnatural, looks unnatural. Very confusing. 
 

Anyway - OP - I say take your own path. I would still advise aiming for traditional or conservative haunts and places and hobbies and clubs. Generally the women there are going to be more like minded to yourself. You could supplement that with regular dating and simply being more scrupulous with your time and what you need and have to have to seriously start to date/be with someone. 
 

x

[mylolita]

OP,

 

You can take what advice you like, but by the third date, if things are hitting off, discussing whether they want marriage and children is vital to me, and vital if it’s your goal. 
 

I discussed marriage and children with my husband by date three. I remember sitting on a park bench and he asked me. I was massively flattered rather than turned off. I asked him how many children he wanted, he squeezed me close and laughed, saying “Six will do.”

 

I always remember that! It never put me off. I remember saying, “I could do six!” We both laughed, but knew it was definitely half serious. Turned out to be half serious too, with three under the belt anyway 😆

 

Just be yourself and put out there what you’re after. I’d personally find it refreshing. No one wants their time wasted. That’s how you end up a year in and having an argument because it was all quite vague and general and she said “maybe soon one day” then changed her mind and you’re wringing your hands together because now you’re attached but you don’t want the same things! 
 

There have been so many threads on here with people into a 5 year relationship and then, the woman mostly is shocked when the man keeps putting her off with vague statements like “someday” or “when we get this, when you get that, when I get promoted” and it’s all a big stall. 
 

x

[mylolita]

7 hours ago, camouflage said:

The fear runs quite deep due to my previous relationship, where I feel like I wasted a few years. My ex kept postponing everything: "I have no idea if I want it in 2025, not in 2026 either, nor in 2027. We'll see, I don't even know if I want kids!"

That can be a stance, but I find it a horrible way of communicating in a relationship, especially during such crucial years of your life, creating so much unnecessary uncertainty. Why would you put each other through that instead of offering all the certainty in the world? I never understood that.

 

 

OP,

 

This brings to mind two Chinese proverbs you might find interesting:

 

[Tinydance]

47 minutes ago, mylolita said:

I thought you were because you have mentioned it but wasn’t sure!

 

So you fall into the modern woman camp Batya also falls into which is, motherhood much later in life. Which is fine and quite standard now. Every single one of my friends and classmates from school have just recently started becoming mothers (age 35) and over half are also unmarried. With the fall of religion as you know, in secular western societies, people aren’t feeling the urge to get married. 
 

Personally I think it is a beautiful and very romantic statement, to make a pledge, a vow - promises - in front of witnesses and loved ones, to always be there for each other. I think it solidifies and adds seriousness to a relationship and, I always advocate for marriage and the concept of marriage, even though again, I am not religious. I think the sentiment and solidifying nature of it is vital for a couple, a great once in a lifetime ritual of commitment. 
 

But anyway, if people don’t want to do that anymore these days, like many other things - it’s their personal call. Again, I think for most couples, it’s actually a hugely positive thing, but some can be satisfied being legal partners or in a kind of eternal boyfriend and girlfriend live in stage. 
 

I really also advocate, and the advice I give camouflage is opposite to what, respectfully, yourself has done, and many modern women do - and to actually try and focus on marriage and children sooner rather than later. There are massive benefits to this that go unspoken about, one being the obvious - if you want siblings or more than one child, it takes the pressure off the woman and she can space them out without biological worry. Two, once your children are teens or young adults, you yourself are not old and can enjoy a “second half” of midlife with energy and health to hopefully pursue further career goals and other hobbies, and also hopefully be there for grandchildren without being too elderly. 
 

Of course, no health is set in stone simply dependent on age. You could pass away at 30 or live happily to 100. Who’s to say. But for me, the benefits are great starting marriage and family life younger. As long as you’re with the right partner, of course. No good to settle fast just because you “need” to have children. That’s definitely not the way either. 
 

Being bi-sexual is a none thing for me. I am probably 10% sexually attracted to women. I have gay and lesbian friends. Some don’t get it either, but they are the type who are quite evenly split in their attraction to the opposite sex, or lean heavily more the opposite way. 
 

There is no way in hell I would even have dated a woman, let alone marry or start a family (how, by the way? Who carried the baby? Whose eggs do we use?! And whose sperm?!) and I had a few chances in my teens and early 20s. Character attributes, the way women generally are in relationships (myself included) seem like a nightmare mix when it’s doubly combined. There is a reason for men and women creating a type of “ying and yang” affect. It works extremely well when it’s done well. My son needs a father figure just like he needs the comfort of his Mum. And my daughters need me for their hair curling and their little girlie mini shopping trips and gymnastic lesson try outs, and need my husband to hold them safely and offer that fatherly, Daddies security blanket and affection often girls need from their fathers. 
 

It’s a controversial thing to say these days, but again it’s just my opinion. 
 

I know gay couples and the children seem unhappy and unbalanced. My daughter has in her year, a boy who has two Dads (not sure who the mother is, who carried the baby and who’s sperm was used, who is half biologically his etc) and he is wayward. We also have a Mum Mum coupling. And ironically, we have just sold our house to a lesbian couple who have two children (twins, I suspect through IVF as twins are far more likely through this process).

 

Raising babies can be complicated enough. I don’t think they need all that extra and different put on them by adults who decide they want to be parents no matter what, so turn to science because they can’t organically have nature make it so. Seems unnatural, looks unnatural. Very confusing. 
 

Anyway - OP - I say take your own path. I would still advise aiming for traditional or conservative haunts and places and hobbies and clubs. Generally the women there are going to be more like minded to yourself. You could supplement that with regular dating and simply being more scrupulous with your time and what you need and have to have to seriously start to date/be with someone. 
 

x

I think I'll stop commenting on the specific part of your post about gay people having kids because it's probably a bit off topic. Which I realise I did bring it off topic myself by mentioning that. I find it offensive that you're saying it's unnatural for gay people to have kids. That seems like some kind of very old fashioned or ultra religious view.

If you're talking about science or say if people are taking about God making the world. People say: "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve". Um sorry to say but if you believe this, God made the world and everything in it in seven days. So while the Bible doesn't mention this but it does say God made EVERYONE. So God made all people who are here, including all sexualities. Same thing with science. If we exist by some kind of scientific design than that design makes people of all sexualities.

It's not just a privilege for straight people to have kids. At least not anymore. People of any sexuality can want kids or strong earning for it just like OP does. To say "well don't have kids coz you're gay and it's not intended" is just...what??! Also I'm pretty sure troubled children have nothing to do with being raised by gay people. Or even by a single parent. It comes from either the children having mental health or disability struggles. Or abuse, neglect or some type of mistreatment from the parents. My best friend works in family violence and it's actually very common. Perpetrated usually by men in straight relationships.

[Batya33]

3 hours ago, mylolita said:

atya also falls into which is, motherhood much later in life. Which is fine and quite standard now.

Nope I wanted motherhood in my 20s very badly.  Even earlier but I also knew it was essential for me to finish college and likely grad school (I was open to getting married/pregnant during grad school with the right person) before becoming a mom.  Because I refused  to settle and wanted to have a child only with the right person and in a stable happy marriage, and because I got in my own way at times with relationships, I didn't have the opportunity to become a mother in the way I wished to -for me and for the best interests of a child -until much later.  I fall into the defies labels/categories/camps, Camp lol.

If anything our choice to have me be a SAHM the first 7 years- or however long I wanted to/worked for us - was very very traditional.  I was ready to work outside the home once he was in kindergarten and it took me over a year to find the right job in my prior industry that also was conducive to my life as a parent.

OP in my relationships we usually discussed our general marriage and family goals early on but generally - typically the man wanted me to know he was generally marriage minded and family oriented.  And just in the normal flow of conversation, things in common -it is obvious.  Like the guy would reference a niece or nephew or a friend's baby and the way he talked about it it was obvious he saw his future similarly.  

And yes early on it was a specific discussion -early-ish - certainly since I wasn't a fan -hypothetically -of abortion for myself -once we became sexually active we always discussed the "what if" -by the time I was ready for that and he was - we were very serious, in love with strong potential for marriage so any "oops" (despite always using protection) would likely have meant -getting married and having a baby.  With one exception I made 21 years ago which I regret so much - just luckily I didn't get pregnant so I didn't have to face his attitude about that.  Really dumb on my part and truly lucky.

[camouflage]

16 hours ago, mylolita said:

OP,

 

You can take what advice you like, but by the third date, if things are hitting off, discussing whether they want marriage and children is vital to me, and vital if it’s your goal. 
 

I discussed marriage and children with my husband by date three. I remember sitting on a park bench and he asked me. I was massively flattered rather than turned off. I asked him how many children he wanted, he squeezed me close and laughed, saying “Six will do.”

 

I always remember that! It never put me off. I remember saying, “I could do six!” We both laughed, but knew it was definitely half serious. Turned out to be half serious too, with three under the belt anyway 😆

 

Just be yourself and put out there what you’re after. I’d personally find it refreshing. No one wants their time wasted. That’s how you end up a year in and having an argument because it was all quite vague and general and she said “maybe soon one day” then changed her mind and you’re wringing your hands together because now you’re attached but you don’t want the same things! 
 

There have been so many threads on here with people into a 5 year relationship and then, the woman mostly is shocked when the man keeps putting her off with vague statements like “someday” or “when we get this, when you get that, when I get promoted” and it’s all a big stall. 
 

x

Hi Mylolita,

Your advice is logical and reasonable. I also don't plan on dating someone who is unsure again, as I've already had enough of that trouble. However, I could, of course, date someone who really wants it, but with the condition that we first need to have a good connection. (That's not such a crazy condition, after all 😉 )

On the other hand, I would personally prefer to find someone in the 25-29 age range who already has that 'neediness' phase in this earlier stage of her life. That also gives me more reassurance about her fertility. I don't like it when women around 32 say "I have all the time in the world"; the priority in the coming years should be stability and family life. I have a house and a good job to offer, a lot of love, humor, agreeableness, kindness, and affection. If a woman can give me love and children, I'll already be happy. Life doesn’t have to be that complicated—by the time you’re 40, you can start worrying about purpose in your work and other things. But as far as I'm concerned, the priority should always be family, not the other way around.

[Batya33]

6 minutes ago, camouflage said:

On the other hand, I would personally prefer to find someone in the 25-29 age range who already has that 'neediness' phase in this earlier stage of her life. That also gives me more reassurance about her fertility. I don't like it when women around 32 say "I have all the time in the world"; the priority in the coming years should be stability and family life. I have a house and a good job to offer, a lot of love, humor, agreeableness, kindness, and affection. If a woman can give me love and children, I'll already be happy. Life doesn’t have to be that complicated—by the time you’re 40, you can start worrying about purpose in your work and other things. But as far as I'm concerned, the priority should always be family, not the other way around.

Why do you want someone "needy" for that -as opposed to simply desiring it -be careful about needy where they're desperate to marry Mr. Right on Paper - I was like that in my 20s and I almost did.  I almost didn't pursue my second dream career because my boyfriend was against me going back to grad school instead of making babies right away -I was 23 when we got engaged.  I was so desperate to be a mom. Luckily I shifted from desperate to -absolutely having motherhood and marriage as one of my top two life goals -but only to the right person and no settling.

I don't know any reasonably intelligent person who is in her 30s, wants kids and believes she has all the time in the world unless she absolutely wants to adopt and/or has frozen her eggs which doesn't mean all the time -but you know -buys her more time than I had (I wanted to freeze my eggs at 32 and it wasn't yet a viable procedure).  I think a woman who says that otherwise doesn't truly want a child at that time with all her heart and soul.

If your priority is family then put your money where your mouth is -be prepared to be flexible about where you live/how you live as opposed to -here's my house, in it's a suburb and you "should" want to raise children in this house in a suburb.  To be a mom I relocated from the city I grew up in and had lived for 43 years.  800 miles away.  Being a SAHM was what I truly wanted so that  was no sacrifice. 

To be a mom I signed up for solo parenting with no family help since my husband traveled a lot for work and still does.  I had to rebuild my professional network in my new city, jump through lots of hoops, and I took a 75% pay cut in order to go back to work part time in an environment conducive to being a mom too.  No regrets - but I didn't insist that my husband put family first and give up his dream career (which requires geographic flexibility and lots of travel) and live exactly where I wanted to live (yes I would have loved to stay in the city we both grew up in, near family). 

I too had your view in my 20s -it must be house in the burbs, drive everywhere, nice and "safe" and homogeneous.  But be careful about getting in your own way -if your way is you want a loving wife and opportunity for biological children with a woman who cannot wait to share a family with you don't get hung up on the Norman Rockwell kind of stuff -just be open minded IMO.

Also I'd stop with the house stuff -you might meet a person who prefers to live in a city, prefers to relocate to be near her family or for a job or for more career opportunities, so for sure your home ownership means some financial stability because it's property you own (I own no real property but I have a great portfolio of my investments so I get that great feeling of financial security) 

[Cherylyn]

I was in daycare and didn't like it.  I missed my mother A LOT.  😓 

I think I'd be semi-OK with working part time while my sister,  mother or aunt babysat my sons when they were little. 

Fortunately,  my husband was a great provider so I could stay home and watch my sons grow up.  I wouldn't have missed it for the world.  Those were truly the happiest days of my life. 😊 I knew only I could take care of my sons the best as there was no substitute for their mother. 

If you want children so badly,  you'll have to be convincing.  Usually ample economics plays a pivotal role in providing comfort and happiness without a care in the world.  If you can provide at this level,  it will sweeten the deal.  If this is impossible,  then usually mothers don't wish to experience exhausting struggle to survive.   

[Batya33]

11 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

Usually ample economics plays a pivotal role in providing comfort and happiness without a care in the world.  If you can provide at this level,  it will sweeten the deal.  If this is impossible,  then usually mothers don't wish to experience exhausting struggle to survive.   

And also making it 100% clear you will be a co parent -not just "help" - and I am a big believer in it not being equal if one person is SAHM (or dad).  Fair. Not equal.  It's not fair if the full time working spouse then has to do as much as the SAH spouse when they come home from a long day of work.  But. When salaried spouse is home they should see themselves as a co parent and communicate as such with the other spouse so the SAH spouse feels totally comfortable and doesn't have to ask for "help" raising his own kids.

Example.  One particular day I was with our baby 12 hours straight (yes he napped!) On that day I was really tired -happy, but tired.  Baby's bed time was closer to 8:30-9 as he wasn't in school or daycare and he happened to sleep past 7 or so bless him.  Husband came home around 7,  I was more than ready to hand over our angel to him -who needed a diaper change too.  Husband -was on phone with his parents -a hello call he'd started while driving home. I was totally fine with this if he multitasked and changed son's diaper.  Just like I did all the time if my mom called. Nope -he wanted to keep talking to his parents for a nice amount of time without taking the baby.  And -nope -that wasn't ok with me after a 12 hour stretch.  Other times if he was home from a business trip with different time zones I did understand if he was exhausted and jet lagged -but -I'd planned for this in advance.  And knew he'd give me a break once he rested, showered ,etc. 

It wasn't ok with me when he offered to chauffer around a family friend which took him away from us (again son was a toddler) - for a 2-3 hour block on a day when I'd usually get a breather. (He did go anyway, it wasn't a huge argument but I was unhappy, it felt very unfair).

But because I've seen him and he's seen himself as co-parent and because he just loves being a dad and does the grunt work of it too as needed - the conversations are from that perspective because when it's just "oh you need more help" then it often goes to "ok then get a sitter/do daycare" etc - which can be fine - a sitter when husband is traveling etc -I did a mother's helper part time for two summers when our son was 4 and 5 -because it was my teenage niece. 

But if it's a default "as the dad I'm here to help because I provide financially -be prepared for tension/resentment especially with a woman who is close to or over 30 and has come into her own as a person.

[Cherylyn]

On 11/29/2024 at 5:55 AM, Batya33 said:

And also making it 100% clear you will be a co parent -not just "help" - and I am a big believer in it not being equal if one person is SAHM (or dad).  Fair. Not equal.  It's not fair if the full time working spouse then has to do as much as the SAH spouse when they come home from a long day of work.  But. When salaried spouse is home they should see themselves as a co parent and communicate as such with the other spouse so the SAH spouse feels totally comfortable and doesn't have to ask for "help" raising his own kids.

Example.  One particular day I was with our baby 12 hours straight (yes he napped!) On that day I was really tired -happy, but tired.  Baby's bed time was closer to 8:30-9 as he wasn't in school or daycare and he happened to sleep past 7 or so bless him.  Husband came home around 7,  I was more than ready to hand over our angel to him -who needed a diaper change too.  Husband -was on phone with his parents -a hello call he'd started while driving home. I was totally fine with this if he multitasked and changed son's diaper.  Just like I did all the time if my mom called. Nope -he wanted to keep talking to his parents for a nice amount of time without taking the baby.  And -nope -that wasn't ok with me after a 12 hour stretch.  Other times if he was home from a business trip with different time zones I did understand if he was exhausted and jet lagged -but -I'd planned for this in advance.  And knew he'd give me a break once he rested, showered ,etc. 

It wasn't ok with me when he offered to chauffer around a family friend which took him away from us (again son was a toddler) - for a 2-3 hour block on a day when I'd usually get a breather. (He did go anyway, it wasn't a huge argument but I was unhappy, it felt very unfair).

But because I've seen him and he's seen himself as co-parent and because he just loves being a dad and does the grunt work of it too as needed - the conversations are from that perspective because when it's just "oh you need more help" then it often goes to "ok then get a sitter/do daycare" etc - which can be fine - a sitter when husband is traveling etc -I did a mother's helper part time for two summers when our son was 4 and 5 -because it was my teenage niece. 

But if it's a default "as the dad I'm here to help because I provide financially -be prepared for tension/resentment especially with a woman who is close to or over 30 and has come into her own as a person.

With two little boys underfoot such as a newborn and preschooler,  I definitely needed all the help I could get.  Fortunately,  my relatives reside locally as do my in-laws.  In-laws weren't helpful.  However,  my mother brought homemade dinners for 6 months after each son was born and she worked full time!   I'll never forget what she did for me during my time of need.  My husband was a godsend.  He helped with anything.  En route to home,  he grocery shopped for the week.  He helped with everything at the home front whether it was tending to the boys or whatever needed to be done regarding the household.  I never had to ask for help.  He went ahead and did it and he's always been this way.  He was right on it. 

Being married to him is easy.  I lucked out there. 

[mylolita]

On 11/28/2024 at 12:50 PM, camouflage said:

Hi Mylolita,

Your advice is logical and reasonable. I also don't plan on dating someone who is unsure again, as I've already had enough of that trouble. However, I could, of course, date someone who really wants it, but with the condition that we first need to have a good connection. (That's not such a crazy condition, after all 😉 )

On the other hand, I would personally prefer to find someone in the 25-29 age range who already has that 'neediness' phase in this earlier stage of her life. That also gives me more reassurance about her fertility. I don't like it when women around 32 say "I have all the time in the world"; the priority in the coming years should be stability and family life. I have a house and a good job to offer, a lot of love, humor, agreeableness, kindness, and affection. If a woman can give me love and children, I'll already be happy. Life doesn’t have to be that complicated—by the time you’re 40, you can start worrying about purpose in your work and other things. But as far as I'm concerned, the priority should always be family, not the other way around.

Afternoon camouflage! 
 

What have I missed? 🤣 I’ve been buying a house, I lost track of this thread! 
 

Your plan and purpose is completely normal, sane, and reasonable. In fact, it’s a fantastic plan! There is nothing wrong with aiming for something early, then if you off shoot and it comes a little later or later, at least you started sooner rather than later - Y’know what I mean? 
 

Also the phase “no harm in trying” comes to mind! 
 

The thing is, life can throw opportunities unexpectedly at us all the time! You never know who you could meet tomorrow, next week, next year! You just have to be clear about who you are, what’s important to you, and what you want. Everything else can fall into place as long as you have that steadfast compass to live by. I really swear by that, as a philosophy. Know thyself! 
 

The mistake people make, because they have low self esteem or are unsure about what they want, or can’t read peoples characters well, or pin false hopes on another person - is wasting TIME on relationships that from the off, we’re obviously never going to be right for them. They either couldn’t see it, or didn’t want to see it. And yes, you can learn from your mistakes and all that woo woo, but better yet - don’t make the mistake or waste the time in the first place. We don’t need to teach ourselves lessons we already know. 
 

I really wish you the best of luck! I think you’ll do it, Y’know that! I hope you breeze on here in three years time with a fantastic update! 
 

x

[mylolita]

On 11/27/2024 at 9:25 PM, Tinydance said:

I think I'll stop commenting on the specific part of your post about gay people having kids because it's probably a bit off topic. Which I realise I did bring it off topic myself by mentioning that. I find it offensive that you're saying it's unnatural for gay people to have kids. That seems like some kind of very old fashioned or ultra religious view.

If you're talking about science or say if people are taking about God making the world. People say: "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve". Um sorry to say but if you believe this, God made the world and everything in it in seven days. So while the Bible doesn't mention this but it does say God made EVERYONE. So God made all people who are here, including all sexualities. Same thing with science. If we exist by some kind of scientific design than that design makes people of all sexualities.

It's not just a privilege for straight people to have kids. At least not anymore. People of any sexuality can want kids or strong earning for it just like OP does. To say "well don't have kids coz you're gay and it's not intended" is just...what??! Also I'm pretty sure troubled children have nothing to do with being raised by gay people. Or even by a single parent. It comes from either the children having mental health or disability struggles. Or abuse, neglect or some type of mistreatment from the parents. My best friend works in family violence and it's actually very common. Perpetrated usually by men in straight relationships.

I’m gay myself, which you brought up, not me - not that that has much to do with anything - but I’m gay and I don’t agree with same sex parenting.

 

What’s so crazy about a bi-sexual woman liking traditional values? I also have many other (male) gay friends who think the same, who actually never got married/civil partnership. It’s not so wild. Gay people come in all different mind sets and have a varied and wide breath of opinion just like straight people. 
 

I could be offended as a “member of the LGBTQ plus plus plus” fraternity that you presume that, but I don’t give two hoots 🦉 

 

If you want standard masculine and feminine roles, you are going to walk a more traditional line in life just by default, so if you want to meet like minded women OP who want early motherhood and don’t mind being a housewife for say, 5-10 years plus, I suggested conservative activities and maybe looking into traditional speed dating or dating apps, if there are such a thing. I’ve never online dated in my life so have done no research into this, but I imagine it’ll be out there in some capacity. 

[Batya33]

10 minutes ago, mylolita said:

If you want standard masculine and feminine roles, you are going to walk a more traditional line in life just by default, so if you want to meet like minded women OP who want early motherhood and don’t mind being a housewife for say, 5-10 years plus, I suggested conservative activities and maybe looking into traditional speed dating or dating apps, if there are such a thing. I’ve never online dated in my life so have done no research into this, but I imagine it’ll be out there in some capacity. 

I wasn't clear on whether he wanted his future wife/mom of his kids to be a SAHM or for how long. I saw that he sees himself as a good financial provider and I thought he mentioned at some point his wife would only have to work part time -but wasn't sure of the timing on that.  (Work when kid is a baby, etc?).

I did meet many men who were "traditional" via online  dating sites and I looked for them.  No issue finding them.  My future husband wanted to know right away on our very first lunch together when we were coworkers (no I wasn't sure if it was a date till later lol) why I chose the career I did (same as him, at that time) -he wanted to make sure I had passion for it, that I was ambitious in that way.  He also wanted someone who eventually would want to be a SAHM for more than maternity leave (but at that time -he was late 20s, he was newer to dating/relationships and wasn't in a mad rush to settle down/have a child but it absolutely was always a goal of his -we are the same age). 

So he didn't fit into the typical category of tradtional guy seeking someone who aspires to be a SAHM and is doing a job to make ends meet and can't wait to leave to be the full time parent. (Which is what my older sister did and a few of of my dear friends - I've seen huge downsides to that as well as downsides to the woman who goes right back to a demanding full time job and outsources childcare because her husband also works full time and/or doesn't wish to do SAHD). There is more risk of the downside IMO if there is no clear communication on roles of parents and especially if the woman is lying to herself and or reluctant to be a SAHM.

Interestingly his parents had him later in life - had to do with my MIL medical issues that affected pregnancy etc - and my MIL was very bright, ambitious, worked hard -and agreed to move to the burbs and be home when my husband was a toddler or maybe earlier -and yes she loved it and yes she sought out business and work opportunities later on when my husband was in preschool.  She didn't take to the housewife/cook part -my FIL was the main cook and good at it. She chose travel over renovating their kitchen lol (meaning the $ was there for either, not both)

All of this to say within the "tradition" there is always wiggle room and individuality and be open to that IMO.  

[mylolita]

2 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I wasn't clear on whether he wanted his future wife/mom of his kids to be a SAHM or for how long. I saw that he sees himself as a good financial provider and I thought he mentioned at some point his wife would only have to work part time -but wasn't sure of the timing on that.  (Work when kid is a baby, etc?).

I did meet many men who were "traditional" via online  dating sites and I looked for them.  No issue finding them.  My future husband wanted to know right away on our very first lunch together when we were coworkers (no I wasn't sure if it was a date till later lol) why I chose the career I did (same as him, at that time) -he wanted to make sure I had passion for it, that I was ambitious in that way.  He also wanted someone who eventually would want to be a SAHM for more than maternity leave (but at that time -he was late 20s, he was newer to dating/relationships and wasn't in a mad rush to settle down/have a child but it absolutely was always a goal of his -we are the same age). 

So he didn't fit into the typical category of tradtional guy seeking someone who aspires to be a SAHM and is doing a job to make ends meet and can't wait to leave to be the full time parent. (Which is what my older sister did and a few of of my dear friends - I've seen huge downsides to that as well as downsides to the woman who goes right back to a demanding full time job and outsources childcare because her husband also works full time and/or doesn't wish to do SAHD). There is more risk of the downside IMO if there is no clear communication on roles of parents and especially if the woman is lying to herself and or reluctant to be a SAHM.

Interestingly his parents had him later in life - had to do with my MIL medical issues that affected pregnancy etc - and my MIL was very bright, ambitious, worked hard -and agreed to move to the burbs and be home when my husband was a toddler or maybe earlier -and yes she loved it and yes she sought out business and work opportunities later on when my husband was in preschool.  She didn't take to the housewife/cook part -my FIL was the main cook and good at it. She chose travel over renovating their kitchen lol (meaning the $ was there for either, not both)

All of this to say within the "tradition" there is always wiggle room and individuality and be open to that IMO.  

Yes of course Batya,

 

No one is a cookie cutter person, everyone has nuances and quirks. 
 

If you aspire for earlier marriage and children now as a woman before career, you are classed as old fashioned or traditional, as the majority of western women don’t do it that way round anymore. 
 

I actually think OP might be pleasantly surprised if he fishes in the right pools how attractive that is to the right kind of women. It’s definitely not a dating death sentence in my opinion. 
 

Nowadays, let’s call a spade a spade - young women who are staying home and having babies young and being taken care of are marrying wealthy men. They have the lifestyle to support it. 
 

Most couples are working now both full time simply because they couldn’t afford to have one parent stay off work for 7 years or, however long they decide. 
 

It’s very different if you’re in a completely privileged lifestyle because your decisions are different and not like normal, every day people decisions anyway. 
 

Finances and lifestyle expectations have to be taken into account when deciding these things eventually. 
 

x

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, mylolita said:

No one is a cookie cutter person, everyone has nuances and quirks. 

To me in this situation it's not just nuances and quirks.  To me the nuances and quirks are more of the outlier stuff.  What I referred to is much more typical in my experience over the years.  The man I was going to marry at 23 and start having babies was not wealthy.  I was planning to be home.  We would have done what was needed to make ends meet. When my sister married at 23 and stayed home and had babies he lost his job right before the wedding and was not wealthy.  They had 4 kids and made ends meet.  Barely. 

The only reason I had my situation was I did not meet the right person or have my baby till age 42,  But there was another reason.  At age 31 after I paid off my grad school loans and was single I made the decision that since I knew I wanted to be a SAHM more than the 6-12 week maternity leave -much more! - I would save my $ so if I married a man who could not provide for that I could contribute from my savings.  As it turned out I saved my $ for 11 years.  As it turned out my money wasn't needed and my husband isn't wealthy nor is his family nor is mine.  I chose to contribute monthly because I felt strongly about making a contribution.  I knew no other women back then who took the approach I did while single - saving $ in case I was lucky enough to get married to the right person and have a baby.  Although my $ wasn't needed having my investments and nest egg -makes such a huge difference in my life.

OP this is what I meant in my post about working within the parameters of tradition but allowing for individual differences that to me are not just outlier quirks.  JMHO. What I did with my savings was more of an outlier.  My husband's discussion with me early on about my career aspirations and our approach within a traditional male/female relationship with traditional roles was and is different in some ways from our friends over the years and the same in others.  

[mylolita]

I think the majority of women aren’t wanting to have babies early and stay home with them because one, most people can’t afford to do that and two, it’s popular to put education and career first, babies second. 
 

I don’t think it’s much more complicated than that for the majority of modern decisions made.
 

x

[Batya33]

5 hours ago, mylolita said:

I think the majority of women aren’t wanting to have babies early and stay home with them because one, most people can’t afford to do that and two, it’s popular to put education and career first, babies second. 
 

I don’t think it’s much more complicated than that for the majority of modern decisions made.
 

x

I understand you see it that way.  In my experience I don't and haven't including in modern times. I also think afford is variable -depends on whether there is free or inexpensive family help, the type of financial stability the couple wants, the couple's lifestyle choices as far as material things, vacations, etc. I respect your perspective and opinion!

[Cherylyn]

My husband and I didn't have children immediately.  We saved for large down payments on our houses and became very settled financially.  Once economics were established and secured,  then we had our two sons in that order.  I stayed home for several years so I could watch them grow up.  Those were the happiest days of my life.  🤗 

Most women don't want a marriage filled with hardship and struggle.  If you can provide at this level and make life easier,  then motherhood is a joy.  Any other way could be met with long discussions and doubts or the answer will be "no."