Navigating conversations about wanting children while dating in your 30s

[camouflage]

5 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

I think its more of the matter of empathy. For example, I want family and kids. but I also understand people who dont. People have the need to procreate and to have kids. That is how nature made us. But, not everybody should have kids. Not all people are for kids and making them have one would have a disastrously consequences. If they are more happy without kids, so be it. But hey, I work in education so saw consequences of bad raising of children by parents. Some of them absolutely shouldnt had kids when they are bad at raising them. That is why I said its more important for you to find somebody with whom you can actually live and raise those kids in peace. And not just with desire to have kids. More you move the age, more women would be opened to the idea of kids because of the biological clock. But that doesnt mean you should have kids with them. Some of the worst decisions I saw was from parents who just wanted to have kids. But had no desire to actually raise them properly.

You're right, and the way you put it, you do have a point. But I also know people who truly have a strong dislike for children. Whether it's empathy or not, I really don't understand that at all.

[Batya33]

7 minutes ago, camouflage said:

No doubt, yes, but that option doesn't exist in my country (Europe). Otherwise, I would have done it.

I don't think single fathers who become fathers on their own exist here.

 

 

I considered single mother by choice - I would have done it only if I were in my 40s and single AND only adopting a child who already was here with no parents.  That was my decision on the matter.  

I think the top priority should be finding the right person -no settling - who also wants to be a parent in the not too distant future -but she should be right in all ways not just because she is fertile/wants to raise a child in a loving stable family.  For example especially if you are going to be parents -or for any couple who have intense family responsibilities like towards aging parents, etc- you have to have -compatible senses of humor and you're able to laugh hysterically together.  It helps!!

(Our teenager finds us totally cringey sometimes because he doesn't get our inside joke references or why it's so hysterical that a coworker replied all and created a load of embarrassment for themselves or one of our old fashioned sitcoms etc) -

you have to be a couple with lots in common separate and apart from being mom and dad -such that you wouldn't dream of being referred to as "the boys" by your wife -meaning you and your son - other than as an offhand sarcastic joke.  I've seen a couple of times -ok more than a couple of times -where the dad gets lumped in with the kids and kind of infantilized by the wife - not so sexy/romantic IMO.  As Dr. Laura Schlesinger used to say -keep dating your spouse.  

[Fudgie]

29 minutes ago, camouflage said:

You're right, and the way you put it, you do have a point. But I also know people who truly have a strong dislike for children. Whether it's empathy or not, I really don't understand that at all.

 

That's kind of me - I feel deeply uncomfortable around most children. I can tolerate in small doses but it is not something I enjoy by any means. I don't get upset seeing kids in public (that's not healthy, IMO) and can interact appropriately when required. However, I am not going to "family friendly" places, babysitting, etc. I attend adult-only events at places like zoos and such so I can enjoy those places then. The idea of me having children and all that it entails doesn't appeal to me. 

That's why I got my tubes removed. However, there are some people (men and women) who feel as I do and still say that they want children. Not ideal, IMO. Not saying you have to LOVE gaggles of kids to be a good mother but if you truly dislike their company 100% and cringe thinking about what comes with parenthood, then yeah, that's probably gonna be a problem. We could spend all day talking about why - societal/family pressure, sense of duty or wanting a legacy, etc. 

At the end of the day, You don't have to understand it because such women really would not be good candidates for you and vice versa. 

You NEED to weed out these women and part of that is being upfront on your profile. I personally love it when guys have put on their profile they they want to start a family because it makes it easy to move on. That's what you WANT. Remember, the goal isn't to have broad appeal to everyone or most, it's to hone in on women that want the same things that you do. 

[camouflage]

18 minutes ago, Fudgie said:

That's kind of me - I feel deeply uncomfortable around most children. I can tolerate in small doses but it is not something I enjoy by any means. I don't get upset seeing kids in public (that's not healthy, IMO) and can interact appropriately when required. However, I am not going to "family friendly" places, babysitting, etc. I attend adult-only events at places like zoos and such so I can enjoy those places then. The idea of me having children and all that it entails doesn't appeal to me. 

That's why I got my tubes removed. However, there are some people (men and women) who feel as I do and still say that they want children. Not ideal, IMO. Not saying you have to LOVE gaggles of kids to be a good mother but if you truly dislike their company 100% and cringe thinking about what comes with parenthood, then yeah, that's probably gonna be a problem. We could spend all day talking about why - societal/family pressure, sense of duty or wanting a legacy, etc. 

At the end of the day, You don't have to understand it because such women really would not be good candidates for you and vice versa. 

You NEED to weed out these women and part of that is being upfront on your profile. I personally love it when guys have put on their profile they they want to start a family because it makes it easy to move on. That's what you WANT. Remember, the goal isn't to have broad appeal to everyone or most, it's to hone in on women that want the same things that you do. 

My ex was just like how you’re describing now. She even refused to hold my newborn nephew and had an aversion to it. In that sense, it’s still the greatest blessing of my life that I’m no longer with her, because that’s just not okay. 🙂 I was so fed up with it.

That said, it’s possible. And the way you describe it, I can live with it to some extent, though I still believe it’s a case of Venus and Mars. But at least you have the respect to acknowledge people who do want it and look at it realistically.

For now, I’ve put my two dating apps on pause. I need some time to relax because otherwise, it’s just too overwhelming. But your tip to explicitly mention it on my profile (even if just for a while) might actually be a good one! You only need one person who’s just as desperate as I am, haha.

[SophiaG]

1 hour ago, camouflage said:

No doubt, yes, but that option doesn't exist in my country (Europe). Otherwise, I would have done it.

I don't think single fathers who become fathers on their own exist here.

 

 

I wasn't referring to surrogacy. I mean continuing what you are doing and likely having children with someone not entirely compatible or long term marriage/relationship material and divorcing them to become a single father.

[camouflage]

47 minutes ago, SophiaG said:

I wasn't referring to surrogacy. I mean continuing what you are doing and likely having children with someone not entirely compatible or long term marriage/relationship material and divorcing them to become a single father.

Haha, wow, I’ve never dared to think that far. But in a way, that was the position I found myself in with my ex, so your comment isn’t all that crazy after all.

My ex lacked the empathy and sensitivity to be a good mother. I genuinely always realized that, as a father, I would have had to carry an enormous amount—perhaps more than would have been healthy for me. But indeed, I would have been willing to do it.

 

So, the answer to your question might actually be yes. But now that I’m in the position of being single again, I might as well find a great mother this time, right? 😉

[Fudgie]

1 hour ago, camouflage said:

My ex was just like how you’re describing now. She even refused to hold my newborn nephew and had an aversion to it. In that sense, it’s still the greatest blessing of my life that I’m no longer with her, because that’s just not okay. 🙂 I was so fed up with it.

That said, it’s possible. And the way you describe it, I can live with it to some extent, though I still believe it’s a case of Venus and Mars. But at least you have the respect to acknowledge people who do want it and look at it realistically.

I mean, I myself am not into holding babies / children AT ALL so I get where your ex is coming from. 

That said, what I don't understand is why you say that you can "live with it to some extent." Why would you do that? Wouldn't it make more sense to rule out women like your ex and ONLY consider women who are warm and enthusiastic about children? I'm not saying that a potential good mother HAS to go ga-ga over others' babies but lots of discomfort in just dealing with them and/or aversion? No way. That does not bode well. 

Keep in mind that someone who SAYS they want children while actively being repulsed by others' kids is not a good bet. Yes, there are some stories of "Man, I disliked kids until I had one, now I'm soooo happy" but there are also stories about "I disliked kids but everyone told me I'd love my own but now I regret parenthood". 

It seems like a huge gamble to me. Isn't it worth holding out just a little longer and really targeting women who feel the same way as you? 

[camouflage]

5 minutes ago, Fudgie said:

I mean, I myself am not into holding babies / children AT ALL so I get where your ex is coming from. 

That said, what I don't understand is why you say that you can "live with it to some extent." Why would you do that? Wouldn't it make more sense to rule out women like your ex and ONLY consider women who are warm and enthusiastic about children? I'm not saying that a potential good mother HAS to go ga-ga over others' babies but lots of discomfort in just dealing with them and/or aversion? No way. That does not bode well. 

Keep in mind that someone who SAYS they want children while actively being repulsed by others' kids is not a good bet. Yes, there are some stories of "Man, I disliked kids until I had one, now I'm soooo happy" but there are also stories about "I disliked kids but everyone told me I'd love my own but now I regret parenthood". 

It seems like a huge gamble to me. Isn't it worth holding out just a little longer and really targeting women who feel the same way as you? 

This needs some clarification: I absolutely cannot live with the idea of having to be with a partner like that again. That’s completely out of the question! I can live with people looking at it, just like you’re doing now. 😉 That’s all I meant.

So we’re in complete agreement—I’m never taking that gamble again. I absolutely want a girlfriend who loves kids and is 100 percent certain about wanting children. But it’s not that hard for me to find someone like that.

What is hard for me to find is a partner who wants kids soon. That’s not something most women are particularly drawn to, which I can completely understand. It takes time to properly assess whether I’d make a good father. Of course, I can have my own opinion on that, but in the end, practice has to prove it.

[Batya33]

I don’t have rapport or feel connected to all kids or babies. Because they’re individuals. I don’t connect with all adults either. I do feel connected in general to causes involving children and to educating children. My first career was teaching kids and I nannied and babysat. 
I don’t try to hold or touch or get very close to other people’s babies. I have done so when asked and I enjoy it but I’m not gushing over a baby or needing to have physical contact. Especially now with Covid etc it can be risky to the baby. 
But I was thrilled to be pregnant loved the experience for the most part and absolutely loved my 7.5 years as a SAHM. Won the lottery.

By contrast my husband loves our son to the moon and back and loves spending time with him from when he was born and spends not just “quality time”. And. He never ever wanted to be the stay at home parent and was honest about that. He had almost no experience with kids.also only child.   And he’s a natural. And I wasn’t surprised in the least. 

 

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, camouflage said:

This needs some clarification: I absolutely cannot live with the idea of having to be with a partner like that again. That’s completely out of the question! I can live with people looking at it, just like you’re doing now. 😉 That’s all I meant.

So we’re in complete agreement—I’m never taking that gamble again. I absolutely want a girlfriend who loves kids and is 100 percent certain about wanting children. But it’s not that hard for me to find someone like that.

What is hard for me to find is a partner who wants kids soon. That’s not something most women are particularly drawn to, which I can completely understand. It takes time to properly assess whether I’d make a good father. Of course, I can have my own opinion on that, but in the end, practice has to prove it.

 

 

No it’s not to “assess”. And it’s about being a good parent not a good father. Brcause there’s some notion about the dad “helping “ with the child or doing specific activities with the child. IMO be a co parenting team. 
It really is kind of a wild guess to tell if a person will be a good father to an unborn child. It depends on a lot of variables including how you connect with your individual child and whether you’re good parents as a team.
For sure if you communicate in a mature an healthy way as a couple chances are good you’ll communicate well about parental responsibilities and the chaos and unpredictability of parenting. 

Also depends how you two see parenting. What makes a good parent in your opinion.  Get very specific and nitty gritty IMO. 

[Fudgie]

41 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I don’t have rapport or feel connected to all kids or babies. Because they’re individuals. I don’t connect with all adults either. I do feel connected in general to causes involving children and to educating children. My first career was teaching kids and I nannied and babysat. 
I don’t try to hold or touch or get very close to other people’s babies. I have done so when asked and I enjoy it but I’m not gushing over a baby or needing to have physical contact. Especially now with Covid etc it can be risky to the baby. 

Yep, I agree, don't necessarily have to be going nuts over other people's kids in order to be a good parent. 

That said, I think having an AVERSION is a clear red flag and should be heralded as a stop sign if you are seeking a partner who wants kids. It's one thing to be more neutral and careful (similar to how you describe yourself) but having an aversion, no way. 

[Andrina]

In coming from a place of desperation, this will end in you attracting unhealthy situations. Or your desperation will drive away a woman who would've been an ideal partner if you took on dating at a normal pace.

Children bring joy but also bring a lot of stress. A couple needs a very strong foundation to be able to handle the new stage of family life. When major decisions are made in the honeymoon period, you're taking a huge gamble. Don't let a child be brought into a world of chaos because you made decisions in the fantasy stage of rose-colored glasses versus taking a few years to see a person in all types of situations, and to ensure no skeletons come rattling out of the closet.

So it's working for your friend? If so, your friend is plain lucky and it's not a sign the same would happen to you. And what your friends have done in their own timelines shouldn't put pressure on you to join them in lightning speed. Give yourself and your partner time to grow as a couple and enjoy getting to know each other and see if you're compatible in every major way. (If you want to stay put in your town or state, or are willing to move. If she takes care of you when you're sick. If she lacks dealbreakers like gambling, alcoholism, etc. If she's financially stable. If she has the capability of being faithful) Then, your foundation will be solid as concrete instead of being dissolvable as a sandcastle at high tide. 

I had a friend who acted out of desperation like you, but for her it was because of her biological time clock. Her two past marriages hadn't lasted, she'd concentrated on her career, and then all of a sudden freaked out when she was nearing 40. She sought the same as you and we kept telling her she shouldn't be putting the cart before the horse. Her response was yelling, "I don't have time!"

She then met a far younger man on a trip abroad. His brain was too immature to think about what he was doing and he thought of it as a lark, I'm sure. She got pregnant by him, brought him to her country and they married. It didn't even last 3 years, and then he became a neglectful parent, with their daughter experiencing much stress and she had abandonment issues. I think it was quite stressful for my former friend to operate in this manner. IMO, she should've just received IVF from a donor and been a single parent.

You don't even have this issue like she did, and yet you're operating from anxiety about something that doesn't need to be done faster than is, what I believe, should be a reasonable pace.

[Cherylyn]

I remember when I was dating my husband and the subject of raising a family together came gradually.  We didn't discuss children immediately. 

We discussed practical terms such as careers,  economics,  budgets and survival type expenses.  I was a SAHM (stay at home mom)  for several years so we didn't spend money on childcare.  Childcare takes a huge chunk out of your income if you don't have family nearby such as a grandmother,  aunt,  cousin or someone who could help you for free or at minimal cost.  Most people whom I know in my area have local relatives or in-laws who help tremendously with childcare so couples can afford rent or mortgage,  food,  part time preschool for older children and the like.  Life is expensive.  Diapers and milk are not cheap. 

Are you a good provider?  Will your future wife have choices?  Can you afford to support a family while she stays home for a few years if she wants to?   🫢

Even though it can be done,  employed parents,  commuter costs,  childcare costs,  household responsibilities,  hired help of all sorts including maid service,  errands,  take out meals for rushed nights and a frenetically paced lifestyle is harried and overwhelmingly exhausting.  I observe this all around me in my suburban neighborhood. 

You can approach a woman regarding this topic by envisioning a realistic future with her based upon economics because it's prohibitively expensive to have children.  Increased prices for everything and inflation is very real.  😒

[Tinydance]

Well there is definitely nothing wrong with wanting kids but I actually don't understand why you're getting stressed? I'm not sure what country or culture you're from but here in Australia it's actually very common to have children in your 30's and also 40's. It's significantly more common than having kids in your 20's. I find that people who have kids in their 20's here are usually not from a Western cultural background or are low socio-economic. Usually here people who are poor and poorly educated will have kids in their 20's because they were careless and not using protection. I know I'm stereotyping but this is how things actually are here. 

Also here if someone wants to be an IVF donor, they accept men up to the age of 45. So they actually still consider a 45-year-old man to not be too old and have healthy sperm. So you yourself still have plenty of time to father children!

Personally I wouldn't have kids quickly with someone that I haven't known long. I think unless you just want to co-parent and be a sperm donor to a woman, you'd need to build a strong relationship with her. I assume the idea would be to be "together forever" in the sense that you want someone to raise the children with until they're adults. So from that perspective you probably wouldn't want someone who's actually incompatible and you'd break up with as fast as you got together with her.

And if you wouldn't stay with the woman because you're incompatible then you may as well just have kids with someone as co-parents/donor. Because it would be the same situation where you're not actually together but you're just both parents to the children.

Personally I wouldn't start talking about kids too much straight away. Put it in your online dating profile but don't make a big deal about it on the early dates. You could ask if the women want kids and if they say yes then just don't bring it up anymore. 

I actually have a post here about this Vietnamese guy I briefly dated some years ago. He was 49 and I was in my mid 30's. I didn't mind the age gap but we only had three dates and he spent all the three dates talking about kids a lot. He basically immediately on the first date began saying that he's scared he's missed the boat with kids and how badly he wanted them. He said he was well off and can provide and he's ready to go. And said something along the lines of: "OK let's give each other a chance and let's go" sort of thing. As in, I want kids, you want kids, lets go. And even though I really wanted kids myself but when someone you don't know just immediately dumps all this on you, yes it's scary! And ultimately he did quickly scare me off. Because I thought he was just too full. And just wanted a uterus to grow the baby and I had a uterus lol

[camouflage]

8 hours ago, Tinydance said:

Well there is definitely nothing wrong with wanting kids but I actually don't understand why you're getting stressed? I'm not sure what country or culture you're from but here in Australia it's actually very common to have children in your 30's and also 40's. It's significantly more common than having kids in your 20's. I find that people who have kids in their 20's here are usually not from a Western cultural background or are low socio-economic. Usually here people who are poor and poorly educated will have kids in their 20's because they were careless and not using protection. I know I'm stereotyping but this is how things actually are here. 

Also here if someone wants to be an IVF donor, they accept men up to the age of 45. So they actually still consider a 45-year-old man to not be too old and have healthy sperm. So you yourself still have plenty of time to father children!

Personally I wouldn't have kids quickly with someone that I haven't known long. I think unless you just want to co-parent and be a sperm donor to a woman, you'd need to build a strong relationship with her. I assume the idea would be to be "together forever" in the sense that you want someone to raise the children with until they're adults. So from that perspective you probably wouldn't want someone who's actually incompatible and you'd break up with as fast as you got together with her.

And if you wouldn't stay with the woman because you're incompatible then you may as well just have kids with someone as co-parents/donor. Because it would be the same situation where you're not actually together but you're just both parents to the children.

Personally I wouldn't start talking about kids too much straight away. Put it in your online dating profile but don't make a big deal about it on the early dates. You could ask if the women want kids and if they say yes then just don't bring it up anymore. 

I actually have a post here about this Vietnamese guy I briefly dated some years ago. He was 49 and I was in my mid 30's. I didn't mind the age gap but we only had three dates and he spent all the three dates talking about kids a lot. He basically immediately on the first date began saying that he's scared he's missed the boat with kids and how badly he wanted them. He said he was well off and can provide and he's ready to go. And said something along the lines of: "OK let's give each other a chance and let's go" sort of thing. As in, I want kids, you want kids, lets go. And even though I really wanted kids myself but when someone you don't know just immediately dumps all this on you, yes it's scary! And ultimately he did quickly scare me off. Because I thought he was just too full. And just wanted a uterus to grow the baby and I had a uterus lol

The biggest source of stress for me isn’t my own fertility but rather that of my potential partner. If you could give me a note guaranteeing that I’d 100 percent have a child at 40, I’d feel much more at ease. But that kind of certainty doesn’t exist. In essence, the chance of conceiving at 30 is up to five times higher than at 40. While pregnancies at later stages are still possible, fertily does decline with age.

For that reason, I’ve always found it puzzling why people prioritize careers and other aspects of life over something that could potentially haunt them for the rest of their lives. Perhaps my perspective is shaped by the sadness of people I know—both within my own circle and that of my parents—who waited too long and ultimately couldn’t have children. It’s a profound sorrow that stays with you for the rest of your life.

I’ve always said I wanted to avoid that at all costs, which is why I wish I had already been in that stage by now. Perhaps it’s a fear-based way of thinking, but I genuinely don’t understand it. And while I’m truly, genuinely happy for the millions of people who manage to have children in their late 30s, for me personally, it’s something I’d prefer to spare myself from. Life has already brought me more than enough stress in recent years.

For me, it’s a delicate balance between staying calm myself while also having a partner who shares the same sense of urgency. I do understand your story about the Vietnamese man, and emotionally, I get that it oddly can be a bit of a turn-off too. Ideally, you’d have two people who are equally needy coming together. 😉

Coincidentally, I’m currently texting with a very Christian woman in her 30s who had the same issue in her previous relationship—her partner wasn’t ready yet, and now she’s also desperate. If it were up to her, she’d literally want to start within four months (she’s actually said this). Her desperation does appeal to me, and I could easily jump in, but her lifestyle, friends, and overall mindset are still too far removed from mine to dive in right away. If those things aligned more, I wouldn’t have much of an issue just giving it a try.

[camouflage]

10 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

I remember when I was dating my husband and the subject of raising a family together came gradually.  We didn't discuss children immediately. 

We discussed practical terms such as careers,  economics,  budgets and survival type expenses.  I was a SAHM (stay at home mom)  for several years so we didn't spend money on childcare.  Childcare takes a huge chunk out of your income if you don't have family nearby such as a grandmother,  aunt,  cousin or someone who could help you for free or at minimal cost.  Most people whom I know in my area have local relatives or in-laws who help tremendously with childcare so couples can afford rent or mortgage,  food,  part time preschool for older children and the like.  Life is expensive.  Diapers and milk are not cheap. 

Are you a good provider?  Will your future wife have choices?  Can you afford to support a family while she stays home for a few years if she wants to?   🫢

Even though it can be done,  employed parents,  commuter costs,  childcare costs,  household responsibilities,  hired help of all sorts including maid service,  errands,  take out meals for rushed nights and a frenetically paced lifestyle is harried and overwhelmingly exhausting.  I observe this all around me in my suburban neighborhood. 

You can approach a woman regarding this topic by envisioning a realistic future with her based upon economics because it's prohibitively expensive to have children.  Increased prices for everything and inflation is very real.  😒

Economically, I have a lot to offer. I own a house (which is a huge asset at my age in my country) and I have an excellent, not-too-stressful job that will provide me with a good income for the coming years.

This is a superb foundation for a family. I think a new partner would only need to work 2 or 3 days a week, and we could still live very comfortably. So, that’s not a problem.

By the way, I really enjoy this almost business-like way of thinking and planning. I have no problem organizing my life in this way. But my ex always got furious when I presented things to her in these terms, so I can imagine that many women might find this approach too business-like or unsexy.

[Tinydance]

1 hour ago, camouflage said:

Economically, I have a lot to offer. I own a house (which is a huge asset at my age in my country) and I have an excellent, not-too-stressful job that will provide me with a good income for the coming years.

This is a superb foundation for a family. I think a new partner would only need to work 2 or 3 days a week, and we could still live very comfortably. So, that’s not a problem.

By the way, I really enjoy this almost business-like way of thinking and planning. I have no problem organizing my life in this way. But my ex always got furious when I presented things to her in these terms, so I can imagine that many women might find this approach too business-like or unsexy.

 

Well your business like way of thinking may not be bad but it really depends what you truly want. If your main priority is only to have children then I don't think you would actually have much trouble finding a woman who will have them with you. In my experience it's more women who really feel those innate drives to have children. Men not as much so I'm sure many women would be happy that you're so devoted to this. So you could find a woman to settle for in a sense. But if you want to find the love of your life, that could take a lot longer.

As far as I understand, in many cultures relationships and marriage actually are approached in a business like or traditional way. Arranged marriages very much still exist. Where two people get set up or even told to marry basically because they both want a spouse and kids. So they get matched to someone who wants the same and suits these wants. E.g. A woman wants a well off man for a husband and the man wants a younger woman who will have his children. And these people know the relationship is more transactional but they're OK with that. If you're fine with something like that then I'm sure it won't be a problem. You could even get a mail order bride lol 

[camouflage]

12 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Well your business like way of thinking may not be bad but it really depends what you truly want. If your main priority is only to have children then I don't think you would actually have much trouble finding a woman who will have them with you. In my experience it's more women who really feel those innate drives to have children. Men not as much so I'm sure many women would be happy that you're so devoted to this. So you could find a woman to settle for in a sense. But if you want to find the love of your life, that could take a lot longer.

As far as I understand, in many cultures relationships and marriage actually are approached in a business like or traditional way. Arranged marriages very much still exist. Where two people get set up or even told to marry basically because they both want a spouse and kids. So they get matched to someone who wants the same and suits these wants. E.g. A woman wants a well off man for a husband and the man wants a younger woman who will have his children. And these people know the relationship is more transactional but they're OK with that. If you're fine with something like that then I'm sure it won't be a problem. You could even get a mail order bride lol 

I am a progressive man. I come from a more traditional background, but over the past 10 years, I’ve fully adapted to a secular liberal worldview, and all of my friends share this mindset as well.

As mentioned above, I am in contact with a Christian woman who thinks in a much more similar way on this matter. She is 30 and had the same problem in her previous relationship: her partner wasn’t ready, and now she is also desperate. If it were up to her, she would literally want to start within four months (she’s actually said this). Her desperation resonates with me, and I could easily step into that, but her lifestyle, friends, and overall mindset are still too far from mine to dive in right away. If those things were more aligned, I wouldn’t have a problem just giving it a try.

But here is my dilemma: Is such a big cultural switch worth going all in for? The answer right now is probably no, but maybe I’d think differently when I’m 35. I’m intelligent, both socially and emotionally, and I secretly feel more drawn to progressive women who think in nuances. And I also worry about what my friends would think about such a switch.

In short, I’m just complaining here. 😉 But ideally, I’d find a progressive woman with a desperate desire to have children, haha.

Regarding that truly "fanatical" biological drive in women, I've actually only seen it in women over 30. (Although my best friend's girlfriend also had it quite strongly.) Culture plays a big role here in Europe as well, particularly in highly educated circles, where there’s this belief that everything will still be fine after 35. To me, that's a particularly unwise mindset.

[Tinydance]

4 minutes ago, camouflage said:

I am a progressive man. I come from a more traditional background, but over the past 10 years, I’ve fully adapted to a secular liberal worldview, and all of my friends share this mindset as well.

As mentioned above, I am in contact with a Christian woman who thinks in a much more similar way on this matter. She is 30 and had the same problem in her previous relationship: her partner wasn’t ready, and now she is also desperate. If it were up to her, she would literally want to start within four months (she’s actually said this). Her desperation resonates with me, and I could easily step into that, but her lifestyle, friends, and overall mindset are still too far from mine to dive in right away. If those things were more aligned, I wouldn’t have a problem just giving it a try.

But here is my dilemma: Is such a big cultural switch worth going all in for? The answer right now is probably no, but maybe I’d think differently when I’m 35. I’m intelligent, both socially and emotionally, and I secretly feel more drawn to progressive women who think in nuances. And I also worry about what my friends would think about such a switch.

In short, I’m just complaining here. 😉 But ideally, I’d find a progressive woman with a desperate desire to have children, haha.

Well I could be wrong but I think most progressive women wouldn't be desperate to have children really fast lol I think they would have a more feminist perspective that they don't need just any guy but they really want to find "the one". 

Also I'm not sure why you're so worried about the fertility of your potential partner. You said you're trying to date women in their late 20's so their fertility should be fine until they're 35. If you were dating a woman who's 27 there wouldn't be a need to have kids within just a few months. Couldn't you give it a year at least before having children? 

Honestly I think you need to maybe see a therapist and think about all this a bit more. I think you're freaking out and possibly not thinking rationally because you're on the rebound from your break up. Your emotions are probably heightened right now.

[camouflage]

7 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Well I could be wrong but I think most progressive women wouldn't be desperate to have children really fast lol I think they would have a more feminist perspective that they don't need just any guy but they really want to find "the one". 

Also I'm not sure why you're so worried about the fertility of your potential partner. You said you're trying to date women in their late 20's so their fertility should be fine until they're 35. If you were dating a woman who's 27 there wouldn't be a need to have kids within just a few months. Couldn't you give it a year at least before having children? 

Honestly I think you need to maybe see a therapist and think about all this a bit more. I think you're freaking out and possibly not thinking rationally because you're on the rebound from your break up. Your emotions are probably heightened right now.

You're right about that, most progressive women don’t think that way. By the way, it's quite striking that you think progressive women would believe in "the one." That doesn’t really make sense if you also embrace a more liberal and free worldview.

Of course, I could easily wait a year, maybe even two. And maybe even three. 😉 (As long as it’s clearly communicated and agreed upon.) 

Therapy could help, but I already talk a lot about it with people, so in that sense...

 

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, camouflage said:

give me a note guaranteeing that I’d 100 percent have a child at 40, I’d feel much more at ease. But that kind of certainty doesn’t exist. In essence, the chance of conceiving at 30 is up to five times higher than at 40. While pregnancies at later stages are still possible, fertily does decline with age.

So then no adoption or surrogacy? Fostering? Not judging - it wasn't really for us either -maybe surrogacy if it had come to that.  Maybe.  There are no guarantees of conceiving, carrying to term, healthy baby - no matter what the age.  Yes of course there is a balancing of the risks -we did no invasive tests because of the risk of miscarriage but did allll blood tests (on me) and ultrasounds I could get -and I got a lot as a geriatric/high risk pregnancy. Then later blood tests became even more accurate -so you're in luck if you and your partner might consider termination or other options should the baby/fetus have issues.  Which can happen whenever.  This is why having a child or adopting a child is a wild unpredictable ride (and totally worth it IMO!)

My friend's last pregnancy in the 90s -after 3 kids - was at age 34.  She was told there was a 5 percent or less chance the baby would be born with part of the brain missing or severely damaged -sorry I'm no scientist but literally that's what it was.  That baby is in her late 20s now, gorgeous and lovely person with a nice husband and 3 kids of her own.  But - this happens -we get to have more info but sometimes that info -to a pregnant woman -is really stressful!!

I like Cherlyn's approach.  We were able to skip over so much of that because we were older parents who had each been high earners for years and each saved so much.  We knew I wanted to be a SAHM and we knew we'd have zero family help because we were relocating 800 miles away for his job and because oour parents -since we were older -were also older and unable to do physical caretaking for various reasons -despite really wanting to! I did tons of solo parenting given my husband's travel including overnight by myself when our son was 2 weeks old, when he had a raging ear infection, stomach virus, suspected concussion (no there was none but it's no fun to have to shine lights in a sleeping kid's eyes every couple hours all night), when he broke his tooth on a camp's floor.

So you have to as Tinydance pointed out have  a partner who is on the same page with you about caretaking including is she willing to have family members watch the baby/hire sitters etc.  What do you two think about preschool and what age since now some kids go at 2 or they call daycare "school".  (Mine went part time starting at 3.5).  How about religion and specifically with kids - because sometimes people have verrrryyy different ideas about religion when it comes to whether to expose kids to a religion, which one, how much.  

And healthcare - are you both into traditional medicine, how do you feel about vaccines cause those start realllyyyy early now at least here with newborns/infants. Do either of you insist on owning a private house before you have a baby, how do you two feel about buying in a neighborhood without great schools so then you're doing home school or private? How do you feel about discipline?

Are you each willing to read parenting books/go to parenting classes maybe or is one of you like "give me a break with all that woo nonsense word salad - my parents simply told me go to your room or my parents wanted me to have everything my heart desired and I want the same.  Are the inlaws allowed to come over whenever or is one of you the type who likes their space and doesn't want to have a random knock at the door? 

You can discuss all of this quickly -but for some of this - not everyone knows how they will react or what they feel -but if you actually know the person over a period of time, know their family, their people -you actually do IMO get a good sense of their approach to parenting at least in many ways that count.  (My husband thought the parenting class we took was hilariously funny diapering a baby doll and the instructor writing in big letters on the board "bady" instead of baby lol.  He also thought it was funny when he was peed upon by his 12 day old son while changing a diaper.  And that's why I married him.  It actually is really important -that sense of humor thing - more than you would think.

[Tinydance]

8 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

So then no adoption or surrogacy? Fostering? Not judging - it wasn't really for us either -maybe surrogacy if it had come to that.  Maybe.  There are no guarantees of conceiving, carrying to term, healthy baby - no matter what the age.  Yes of course there is a balancing of the risks -we did no invasive tests because of the risk of miscarriage but did allll blood tests (on me) and ultrasounds I could get -and I got a lot as a geriatric/high risk pregnancy. Then later blood tests became even more accurate -so you're in luck if you and your partner might consider termination or other options should the baby/fetus have issues.  Which can happen whenever.  This is why having a child or adopting a child is a wild unpredictable ride (and totally worth it IMO!)

My friend's last pregnancy in the 90s -after 3 kids - was at age 34.  She was told there was a 5 percent or less chance the baby would be born with part of the brain missing or severely damaged -sorry I'm no scientist but literally that's what it was.  That baby is in her late 20s now, gorgeous and lovely person with a nice husband and 3 kids of her own.  But - this happens -we get to have more info but sometimes that info -to a pregnant woman -is really stressful!!

I like Cherlyn's approach.  We were able to skip over so much of that because we were older parents who had each been high earners for years and each saved so much.  We knew I wanted to be a SAHM and we knew we'd have zero family help because we were relocating 800 miles away for his job and because oour parents -since we were older -were also older and unable to do physical caretaking for various reasons -despite really wanting to! I did tons of solo parenting given my husband's travel including overnight by myself when our son was 2 weeks old, when he had a raging ear infection, stomach virus, suspected concussion (no there was none but it's no fun to have to shine lights in a sleeping kid's eyes every couple hours all night), when he broke his tooth on a camp's floor.

So you have to as Tinydance pointed out have  a partner who is on the same page with you about caretaking including is she willing to have family members watch the baby/hire sitters etc.  What do you two think about preschool and what age since now some kids go at 2 or they call daycare "school".  (Mine went part time starting at 3.5).  How about religion and specifically with kids - because sometimes people have verrrryyy different ideas about religion when it comes to whether to expose kids to a religion, which one, how much.  

And healthcare - are you both into traditional medicine, how do you feel about vaccines cause those start realllyyyy early now at least here with newborns/infants. Do either of you insist on owning a private house before you have a baby, how do you two feel about buying in a neighborhood without great schools so then you're doing home school or private? How do you feel about discipline?

Are you each willing to read parenting books/go to parenting classes maybe or is one of you like "give me a break with all that woo nonsense word salad - my parents simply told me go to your room or my parents wanted me to have everything my heart desired and I want the same.  Are the inlaws allowed to come over whenever or is one of you the type who likes their space and doesn't want to have a random knock at the door? 

You can discuss all of this quickly -but for some of this - not everyone knows how they will react or what they feel -but if you actually know the person over a period of time, know their family, their people -you actually do IMO get a good sense of their approach to parenting at least in many ways that count.  (My husband thought the parenting class we took was hilariously funny diapering a baby doll and the instructor writing in big letters on the board "bady" instead of baby lol.  He also thought it was funny when he was peed upon by his 12 day old son while changing a diaper.  And that's why I married him.  It actually is really important -that sense of humor thing - more than you would think.

That's exactly right. Technically any two opposite gender people can just have kids because all they need to do is have sex. But can you RAISE a child together? 

[Batya33]

18 minutes ago, camouflage said:

You're right about that, most progressive women don’t think that way. By the way, it's quite striking that you think progressive women would believe in "the one." That doesn’t really make sense if you also embrace a more liberal and free worldview.

Of course, I could easily wait a year, maybe even two. And maybe even three. 😉 (As long as it’s clearly communicated and agreed upon.) 

Therapy could help, but I already talk a lot about it with people, so in that sense...

 

I'm not a feminist and I believe in equal treatment in the workplace for all no matter skin color/gender/religion etc.  I didn't believe in "the one" I believed -over time that is when I stopped being riduclously desperate to marry -thank goodness I ended an engagement at 23 years old, 35 years ago at this time - I believed in finding the right match for me where I was reasonably sure and excited to be marrying this person for the right reasons.  But I also always made my professional life a top priority, and I still do.  So that's more progressive I guess than my mom's generation where you went to college for your "Mrs." degree.  

Talking with people is wonderful.  Has nothing to do with therapy. Talk in therapy is different -like talking to people about your medical issue -recurring headache, recurring rash whatever - can help with home remedies, empathy, support if you're anxious but no substitute for talking to a health care provider.  

I find that those who are single mothers by choice and are heterosexual tend to be feminists or in that category.  So a feminist who wants kids might not be in a rush because she believes there is no rush - she can always go do it on her own, maybe even with her pre-frozen eggs.  And not because she is anti-men or marriage it's simply not a concern for her given her view of the best interests of the child. (Many many times including two days ago I am SO thankful not to be a single mom, so thankful I didn't choose  that, so thankful to be doing  this with my husband/the dad and regularly my son is so thankful too that he has the both of us, but sometimes for nefarious reasons like "oh ok I'll just ask dad  then he'll say yes.....")

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, Tinydance said:

That's exactly right. Technically any two opposite gender people can just have kids because all they need to do is have sex. But can you RAISE a child together? 

Two same gender can too.  Sex isn't needed between the two people.  And yes raising is the key.  So that's why I write and others have written -don't think you can skip over the getting to know part or compress it in a shorter period of time.

OP - did you see the Big Chill? There's a great plot in there about a woman who is running out of time to have a biological child (also awesome movie)

[SophiaG]

18 hours ago, camouflage said:

Haha, wow, I’ve never dared to think that far. But in a way, that was the position I found myself in with my ex, so your comment isn’t all that crazy after all.

My ex lacked the empathy and sensitivity to be a good mother. I genuinely always realized that, as a father, I would have had to carry an enormous amount—perhaps more than would have been healthy for me. But indeed, I would have been willing to do it.

 

So, the answer to your question might actually be yes. But now that I’m in the position of being single again, I might as well find a great mother this time, right? 😉

 

It simply comes to this:

22 hours ago, SophiaG said:

Ultimately I think you need to decide if it is more important to you to have children ASAP, with the risk of quickly breaking up with/divorcing the person you have children with, or to find the right partner to spend your life with, with the risk of not having children as soon as you want (or never having biological children). For the former you just need to find someone who's also eager to have children for whatever reason. For the latter, slow down and get to know the person first. 

 

I've also known people, both men and women, who have strong desires to have children which sometimes became at odds with their romantic/dating priorities. Some chose the person over the urge to have children. Some chose to have children and were okay with being a single parent.

In your posts you keep describing the ideal woman as a great mother, a good parent, etc. and it probably does come across to the women you date that you care more about their suitability as a mother than who they are as a person. What about their character, their dreams and their compatibility with you as a partner? What about the attraction/love factor or is that not so important given your strong desire to have children? If so it sounds increasingly like you can just take the former approach - like some women I know - who decide to have children while they can no matter what so they focus on finding some men/sperm donor to have kids with and don't expect to stay with them or raise the kids together. Because looking for the right partner to spend your life together can take more than a few months or a few years.