How to be charming?

[Wiseman2]

10 minutes ago, SooSad33 said:

Honestly, I think you should stop trying to get involved with anyone within a work place.  Why make things harder and awkward?

Agree. It's lazy and bound to fail. It takes more effort to join some groups and clubs, volunteer, get involved in sports and fitness, take some classes and courses and broaden your social horizons.

This way you'll make friends, see all sorts of people and women on a regular basis and can work on your social skills while having fun. 

Get off 75% male free hookup apps as far as dating. That's another example of shooting yourself in the foot like asking coworkers to fix you up. If you are serious about dating get on quality paid apps that tend to have 50-50 male-female distributions and more serious daters.

However without trying to broaden your horizons for real life meetings nor trying decent dating apps, it's unclear why you're surprised it's not working.

[DaterSA]

15 hours ago, SooSad33 said:

Honestly, I think you should stop trying to get involved with anyone within a work place.  Why make things harder and awkward?

Try dating sites... take a tour see what IS available to approach.

And maybe also stop thinking so hard on it all.  Just because something doesn;t work out, doesn't always mean it's because of something you're doing wrong.

But, confidence is key.  And when you do meet up with a supposed 'date', be yourself.  Be nice, joke around, just don't over do it! ( I've been on dates, where guys act out like they're teens- which is a turn off). 

This is not specifically related to a work place, I run a social club and we have events, she arranged events for us before.  

Dating sites, I have been on them for 10+ years and yes paid ones and unpaid ones and frankly what is available, i.e. the people who actually find me attractive simply do not interest me in he slightest. When I seemingly get not attractive matches it is pretty much an indication of my overall attractiveness.

Confidence is key but its so hard for me to find it when it comes to dating , sure I go and be myself, I am not good at joking but I do try, more than that I try take an interest and listen.

[DaterSA]

15 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Agree. It's lazy and bound to fail. It takes more effort to join some groups and clubs, volunteer, get involved in sports and fitness, take some classes and courses and broaden your social horizons.

This way you'll make friends, see all sorts of people and women on a regular basis and can work on your social skills while having fun. 

Get off 75% male free hookup apps as far as dating. That's another example of shooting yourself in the foot like asking coworkers to fix you up. If you are serious about dating get on quality paid apps that tend to have 50-50 male-female distributions and more serious daters.

However without trying to broaden your horizons for real life meetings nor trying decent dating apps, it's unclear why you're surprised it's not working.

I suppose I should not bother asking what about people who find none of those things interesting? Fun for me is accomplishing things. 

Yes, I enjoy activities but they are solo activities and for the most part I am quite happy doing them on my own.

Funny Tinder and Bumble seem to work for millions, if they did not the former would be be churning over the revenue it does. You cant really knock those apps because they are common and must work else people would not use them.

Dating apps have a lot to answer for because as you say they limit actual interaction but I maintain that someone who sees me on an app and and swipes left will not actually be enthusiastic about seeing me in person. Apps take away awkwardness and are undoubtedly an asset for some because it would allow them to network more with people they would not normally meet.  I know someone who has over 500 likes for example, that is 500 options.

It would take a long time to meet 500 people. 

 

[boltnrun]

You ask for advice (on thread after thread after thread) then summarily reject any and all advice you're given.

Just stating a fact. Not looking to debate you. 

[Jaunty]

17 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

You ask for advice (on thread after thread after thread) then summarily reject any and all advice you're given.

Just stating a fact. Not looking to debate you. 

I believe this is an activity in and of itself.  There's not really any interest in *doing* anything.   Just talking about it and garnering a LOT of attention.  

OP, how many identical threads do you think you've had on this and another similar site?  I would estimate  at least 50.   Most of them get closed down for having "run their course" via your propensity for circular arguing.  

Do you enjoy this?

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, DaterSA said:

 I enjoy activities but they are solo activities and for the most part I am quite happy doing them on my own.

That's great. Then don't bother with dating or dating apps. 

[boltnrun]

27 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

I believe this is an activity in and of itself.  There's not really any interest in *doing* anything.   Just talking about it and garnering a LOT of attention. 

I agree, it's for attention. Because no new advice has been offered. It's the same two or three people responding giving the exact same responses, all of which get shot down by the OP. Then next week another thread with a slightly different title. And pages and pages of the same responses with the same rejections. 

You have said, OP, that you run a social event business so I presume that means you have some degree of human interaction. I'm puzzled as to why online forums seem to be your preferred way to interact. 

[DaterSA]

6 hours ago, boltnrun said:

You ask for advice (on thread after thread after thread) then summarily reject any and all advice you're given.

Just stating a fact. Not looking to debate you. 

I'll tell you why and its actually quite simple. I ask how to be charming and instead I get told to sit on some leather couch listening to someone who actually does not know me theorise about me from the basis of a text book. Alternatively I get told to join societies or take classes or failing that I get told "oh well you need to just lower your standards and settle" or "well you know you should not find these people attractive and you would not if you viewed yourself differently and from the best of all "well Tinder is a useless app", odd really because millions use it so it cant really be all that useless.

One person added real genuine value by telling me she met her husband at work event while others tell me not to date at work despite this not being a work event.

Therapists sit on chairs daily and dispense in some cases irrelevant advice based on knowing a slice about  a person, these forums, well I would think the advice would be based more on real world "this worked for me, how about you try this". Has that really happened, in my opinion mostly not.

I get it my mindset does not align with most here, nor it would seem do my experiences however both are dismissed and made to be the core topic. Frankly when I say someone attractive to me, that is construed as being a model, it is not,, what is NOT attractive to me are people who do not take care of themselves, apathetic people are not attractive to me either but the most unattractive people to me are those who never ever attempt the difficult, never face down the real possibility of defeat and then just settle! 

The value I get here is one person's story of how she succeeded at getting what she wanted, did she settle no she did not. More inspiring than that she approached her future husband at a work event and started chatting, she started the conversation. But hang on according to some men must do all the awkward starting of the conversation, clearly again this is not true.

Equally this 'wall paper" advice of meet up and so on and so forth, those suggesting this, have you ever actually been to one and seen how contrived they are? It was much like a singles event I dragged myself to and no surprise did not really fit in. 

The question here was how to be more charming and try contrive a way to actually get a date and then I get told not to do this but attempting to chat someone up at a meet up event is OK?  How would YOU do that and accomplish that?

My point its easy to give "correct advice" but actually ignore the fact the world does not work in a linear way, I can go out sit at a bar and have nobody talk to me, my good looking confident friend with get plenty attention. I might be smarter but it counts for nothing. You cant then say "oh the ladies are wrong and that is the wrong environment". Likewise someone who rejects me on a dating app will likely want NOTHING to do with me in a coffee shop, that fact cannot be ignored, dating apps have just made the entire dating world even more reliant on superficial qualities. All of us would love the world to work in a way the suits us, it would be lovely but that never happens but we all CANNOT ignore what other people experience and YES I accept other have more than me but that does diminish my or their experience, I have tried to date people, 99.9% of them have had zero interest in me, people around me sugar coat it but honestly its looks and many other things, its sugar coated because I think people would rather just spin half truths than actually land the sucker punch of truth. 

Ultimately what I wanted was real world advice based on real world experience and I thank those who have provided this.

 

 

 

[DaterSA]

6 hours ago, Jaunty said:

I believe this is an activity in and of itself.  There's not really any interest in *doing* anything.   Just talking about it and garnering a LOT of attention.  

 

Doing what exactly? Lowering my standard? Pretending I find people attractive I do not? Giving people infinite chances to suddenly become attractive? Pretending to be a different person? Ignoring the fact superficial things matter? 

Attention, not really in this context but yes I did enjoy walking around with a model, it was a lovely experience and I did enjoy the attention. No one of the things I enjoy most is proving people wrong, nothing motivates me as much as that. You tell me how I prove people wrong by actually dating the people I want to date versus the people others want me to date?

That is a question for you!

[Jaunty]

Oh, come on.  How many threads do you think you have?  I bet closer to 100 than 50. All of them filled with people earnestly trying to give you some useful guidance, including myself.  Yet, all you can come up with that people have suggested is that you "pretend to find people attractive" or "give people infinite chances to become attractive"?   

That last one is a doozy.  You've been in a position to be giving anyone "infinite chances" to be ...  attractive  enough for you?  Like they're bending over backwards trying to win your favor?   Wow.  Impressive.   Who knew.  What a terrible experience, to be hounded by ladies who fall beneath the "supermodel" level of gorgeousness.  

As far as "pretending to be a different person," no.  No one has suggested that.

You evidently live in an alternative reality to most of us mere mortals.  When we discover that we have a shortcoming that is proving to be an impediment, the general approach of successful adults is to work towards improving on that shortcoming.    And ... voila!  Previously unreachable goals have been attained.  

It's not exactly "pretending to be a different person."  More like improving on what we have to work with.  Of course ... most of us are not perfect to begin with.

You love to play the "poor, poor me" card.  You could probably win an award for that. But, sometimes you  reveal yourself to have a massive and  actually quite phantasmagoric ego.   

Carry on.  But try a different approach to the threads.  It's like a broken record.

[DaterSA]

On 9/16/2023 at 5:26 AM, Jaunty said:

Oh, come on.  How many threads do you think you have?  I bet closer to 100 than 50. All of them filled with people earnestly trying to give you some useful guidance, including myself.  Yet, all you can come up with that people have suggested is that you "pretend to find people attractive" or "give people infinite chances to become attractive"?   

That last one is a doozy.  You've been in a position to be giving anyone "infinite chances" to be ...  attractive  enough for you?  Like they're bending over backwards trying to win your favor?   Wow.  Impressive.   Who knew.  What a terrible experience, to be hounded by ladies who fall beneath the "supermodel" level of gorgeousness.  

As far as "pretending to be a different person," no.  No one has suggested that.

You evidently live in an alternative reality to most of us mere mortals.  When we discover that we have a shortcoming that is proving to be an impediment, the general approach of successful adults is to work towards improving on that shortcoming.    And ... voila!  Previously unreachable goals have been attained.  

It's not exactly "pretending to be a different person."  More like improving on what we have to work with.  Of course ... most of us are not perfect to begin with.

You love to play the "poor, poor me" card.  You could probably win an award for that. But, sometimes you  reveal yourself to have a massive and  actually quite phantasmagoric ego.   

Carry on.  But try a different approach to the threads.  It's like a broken record.

I think fixing short comings is all good and well and even I try that but a new outfit is not suddenly going to render me attractive.

You are right, I'd rather have no attention than attention from people I am not interested in. A classic case in point is Bumble, NONE of the people I like match with me, I then go and swipe maybe 40 profiles and unsurprisingly the people who do find me attractive are very enthusiastic, absolutely not one of them I find attractive and here I am not being particularly fussy. 

In my opinion the bold is wonderful fiction, I have been for make overs etc. and none of them actually made any difference. Changing for the sake of changing is pointless, changing and charting improvements, that is worth while because while it wont always work I could at least see myself improving. For years I have read, do this do that and these wonderful stories but for me at least the reality never changes.

What I have done is look around and try understand what makes others more successful than me and its these issues which seemingly everyone here disagrees with or renders as irrelevant. For years I have been on a variety of dating sites, different profiles, different pictures, different bios and still mutual attraction is impossible.

Here is a good example and there are many, someone catches my eye at some social gathering and I find every last drop of confidence to initiate some conversation and assuming I am not too awkward I can sometimes keep the conversation going but then arrives the charming flirty guy and I am dead in the water. There is no way to go around that. Well actually there is, find people attractive who perhaps have fewer options.

For what its worth I took everyone's advice and scrapped any idea of taking the events lady on a date.

 

[Batya33]

3 hours ago, DaterSA said:

and I find every last drop of confidence to initiate some conversation and assuming I am not too awkward I can sometimes keep the conversation going but then arrives the charming flirty guy and I am dead in the water.

Yes for those women who are interested in a person who presents in that way -charming and flirty. Also my sense is you anticipate the woman will end the conversation and you might sabotage it in some way or give off a vibe that suggests that.

[Jaunty]

4 hours ago, DaterSA said:

 

In my opinion the bold is wonderful fiction, I have been for make overs etc. and none of them actually made any difference. Changing for the sake of changing is pointless

 

What are you responding to?  I said nothing about "makeovers."  Here is what I said:

Quote

When we discover that we have a shortcoming that is proving to be an impediment, the general approach of successful adults is to work towards improving on that shortcoming. 

It's not a "fiction."  It's a trait of successful people.  

[boltnrun]

I wanted a promotion at work so I changed the way I interacted with coworkers and leadership. I got the promotion. I wanted more interaction with friends and family so I started reaching out first. 

If we truly want something we can change our actions without fundamentally changing how we view ourselves. It's not a defeat or "giving in" or "settling". 

[DaterSA]

1 hour ago, boltnrun said:

I wanted a promotion at work so I changed the way I interacted with coworkers and leadership. I got the promotion. I wanted more interaction with friends and family so I started reaching out first. 

If we truly want something we can change our actions without fundamentally changing how we view ourselves. It's not a defeat or "giving in" or "settling". 

I am quit happy about the way I interact with people, there is nothing I would change there, I am am who I am and if people do not like that, well that's fine. I have known people who do all they can to craft this contrived version of themselves in the hope that people would notice them, it would give them some capital at the bar/club trying to interact with ladies, they'd go out buy clothes they often did not like, go places they were not too interested in....in the hope they would pick meet someone.

I have been there done that and I do not intend doing it again. The most confident version of myself is simply when I embrace who I am rather than trying to be someone I am not. 

Me, I look at probability and risk and weigh the two up against each other and I do this for most things, so yes while I like what I like, I also know its pretty much a fruitless pursuit because experience has taught me the probability is very low and the risk is very high, not exactly conducive to a favourable outcome. 

For years I tried pretty much what you said, I never lost hope, I was optimistic, heck I was even stupid enough to think I could compete with charming, good looking and confident but reality soon checked that idea and it has done every single time. 

 

[DaterSA]

1 hour ago, Jaunty said:

What are you responding to?  I said nothing about "makeovers."  Here is what I said:

It's not a "fiction."  It's a trait of successful people.  

Well a lack of absolute attraction is a pretty difficult shortcoming to address. If a person cannot even offer that there is no interview, there is no "well his personality might be nice". I accept this, its simply the way it is. Frankly if I were lucky enough to be a position to choose, I'd also pick the best person I could find for me and why would I choose someone unattractive when I can have someone who is? 

I get it people work on things that hold them back to I am honest enough to know there is nothing about me which would be deemed attractive by people I find attractive. This much is obvious and its very obvious each time I do try climb into the boxing ring that is dating. Yes, I have tried to make tweaks, yes I absolutely try and muster all the confidence I can, yes I try and engage in a light but meaningful way, yes I exhibit good manners, yes I listen and ask relevant question, yes I try and make whoever is opposite me feel comfortable and I try do this consistently whenever by some miracle I do go on a date what interests me.

For me dating is like standing on the one side of the Grand Canyon and dating is on the other, there is no way for me to use what I have to get across that. I look at what tools others use and I simply do not have those attributes, yes I have others but they are not helpful. Its very difficult to explain what its like to constantly try put my best foot forward, remain hopeful, try carry some confidence, fake that confidence to a large degree and simply see no incremental improvement at all.

Successful people also know when to stop and move onto something else, the ONLY thing which keeps me in the game is the one dating experience I absolutely want and that is very simple, mutual attraction just once. She does not need to sleep with me but for me to actually feel wanted and for someone to actually find me attractive. 

Everyone here has been kind and sharing and I do appreciate it so I'll share this because it will make people laugh perhaps for context I turned this down immediately, a good friend tried to set me up on a blind date "I will set you up with someone who will absolutely sleep with you on date 1". Shy me dismissed this idea immediately but the fact that someone actually wanted to set this up, this tells you everything about how unattractive I am.

Thanks once again for the encouragement and do accept my apologies for my at times harsh posts, they come from a place of irritation at myself rather than any of the kind people offering advice.

[DaterSA]

2 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Yes for those women who are interested in a person who presents in that way -charming and flirty. Also my sense is you anticipate the woman will end the conversation and you might sabotage it in some way or give off a vibe that suggests that.

Actually not, sadly what usually happens is a guy arrives who is better looking, more charming, more confident and its over for awkward faking confidence me, I am not the life of a party ever but unfortunately for me one of the most attractive qualities I seek is confidence and for whatever reason extroverted people seem to have lots of it. 

They way I see it a person has maybe 5 minutes to make a good impression and I simply never seem to win at this, I try and try and metaphorically kick myself afterwards for not saying that or for saying that and then I go back to looking at how successful people do it. 

I think you can probably relate, having read your story, to how hard it is every single day to just be alone, everyone else around has someone, for me I look at myself and then I can pull myself to pieces, I am my own worst critic. 

Part of me remains hopeful but in nearly 12 months I have not had one date.

 

[Jaunty]

4 hours ago, boltnrun said:

I wanted a promotion at work so I changed the way I interacted with coworkers and leadership. I got the promotion. I wanted more interaction with friends and family so I started reaching out first. 

If we truly want something we can change our actions without fundamentally changing how we view ourselves. It's not a defeat or "giving in" or "settling". 

Well .... this seems to  pertain to those among us who 1) do not already think of ourselves as perfect, and 2) do not expect to have anything handed to us on a silver platter just because we exist in our natural state.

OP does not fall into this particular population.

That's why the Incel / Manosphere community is a good place for him while this is not.  This board exists literally to provide support in the form of advice to people who are seeking that.  OP is so very much not.

 

[boltnrun]

14 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

Well .... this seems to  pertain to those among us who 1) do not already think of ourselves as perfect, and 2) do not expect to have anything handed to us on a silver platter just because we exist in our natural state.

OP does not fall into this particular population.

That's why the Incel / Manosphere community is a good place for him while this is not.  This board exists literally to provide support in the form of advice to people who are seeking that.  OP is so very much not.

 

I never advised to create a "contrived version" of himself but somehow my response got translated into that.  But as my sig line says, if you change nothing, nothing changes.

I believe people do what they can if there's something they want badly enough, and if they do nothing it means they don't really want it all that badly.

[Jaunty]

22 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I never advised to create a "contrived version" of himself but somehow my response got translated into that.  But as my sig line says, if you change nothing, nothing changes.

Every suggestion gets the same response.  The OP is adamant that he  will not do any kind of work towards changing his dateless circumstances.  It's actually kind of comical, since there are dozens of threads like this one, which is entitled "How to be charming."  Seemingly, OP is soliciting for advice on HOW TO BE CHARMING.    But - no!  Absolutely not!  And those of us who have participated in these fiascos are often shot down with impressive rudeness and arrogance.

Over in the manosphere, however, every male human being is ENTITLED to a "free hot model."  No further requirements necessary aside from being a MAN.    Perhaps they get extra points if they are capable of having a job and supporting themselves, but that's not really necessary.   

When this entitlement is not "honored" by whatever power is in charge of it all, the petulant outrage is quite impressive. 

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, DaterSA said:

think you can probably relate, having read your story, to how hard it is every single day to just be alone, everyone else around has someone, for me I look at myself and then I can pull myself to pieces, I am my own worst critic. 

No because I never felt "alone" - I always had close friends and family and never let myself go there with "everyone has someone" as it was absolutely not true and it's not true now.

[DaterSA]

8 hours ago, Jaunty said:

Every suggestion gets the same response.  The OP is adamant that he  will not do any kind of work towards changing his dateless circumstances.  It's actually kind of comical, since there are dozens of threads like this one, which is entitled "How to be charming."  Seemingly, OP is soliciting for advice on HOW TO BE CHARMING.    But - no!  Absolutely not!  And those of us who have participated in these fiascos are often shot down with impressive rudeness and arrogance.

Over in the manosphere, however, every male human being is ENTITLED to a "free hot model."  No further requirements necessary aside from being a MAN.    Perhaps they get extra points if they are capable of having a job and supporting themselves, but that's not really necessary.   

When this entitlement is not "honored" by whatever power is in charge of it all, the petulant outrage is quite impressive. 

What absolute nonsense nobody is entitled to anything at all. I am all too aware why I am unattractive so I am not really too sure how that can be construed as entitlement.

As for this so called "work", its odd I know not one person who has had to do this "work" but perhaps you can give me an example of the "work" you did and how this "work" directly lead to better dating results? 

My question still remains, how to be charming because I ALWAYS try to put my best foot forward and yet its never what people seemingly want. 

You can throw the insults, frankly I do not care. Perhaps you need to ask yourself if dating is so wonderful why there are groups like incels? (I am not one of those for what its worth). If as you say everyone can do whatever "work" it is you suggest and magically become successful why would such groups exist?

 

 

[DaterSA]

7 hours ago, Batya33 said:

No because I never felt "alone" - I always had close friends and family and never let myself go there with "everyone has someone" as it was absolutely not true and it's not true now.

Thank you for this, its honest and true unlike the fairy tales being spun here. 

[DaterSA]

9 hours ago, Jaunty said:

Well .... this seems to  pertain to those among us who 1) do not already think of ourselves as perfect, and 2) do not expect to have anything handed to us on a silver platter just because we exist in our natural state.

OP does not fall into this particular population.

That's why the Incel / Manosphere community is a good place for him while this is not.  This board exists literally to provide support in the form of advice to people who are seeking that.  OP is so very much not.

 

I'll call you on this, please tell me how much of the advice you dish out is based on your own experience versus what you "think" will work. 

Perfection does not exist but many people chase that ideal, it does not make them wrong. The main differing point of view is this seemingly nonsense idea that everyone starts off on the same level at dating, that is untrue and its why some advice will work for some and not for others.  

Someone who is out going, physically attractive is always going to be more successful at dating than the shy physically unattractive introvert and will always have more choice UNLESS each adopts the like with like, the introvert seeks out other introverts, he may have more luck there.

I can go on dates and try feel good about myself but I also concede that no matter what I do the outcome will be largely the same. You like to go on about work but there are fundamentals which are either attractive or they are not.

 

[Capricorn3]

2 minutes ago, DaterSA said:

I am all too aware why I am unattractive so I am not really too sure how that can be construed as entitlement.

OP, the only thing that's really unattractive about you, is your "woe is me" attitude.  Trust me, people can smell it a mile away and until you lose this miserable attitude, be prepared for a long and lonely life.   Just think about it - if this attitude is so strong online, and strangers on the internet can sense it, imagine how bad it is in real life?  Women will steer clear and not want to be near you, when all they sense is "poor me, I'm so ugly", etc etc.

Seriously, lose the attitude.