How to be charming?

[DaterSA]

9 hours ago, waffle said:

It sounds like you're trying to be something you're not (charming) in an effort fo gain or at least get the attention of someone who would not necessarily be a good fit for you but may look the part.  In order to feed your ego.

The reality is pretty much nobody is a good fit for me so what you describe is the ever present problem. I suppose part of me has simply conceded looks are much easier to find than personality, ultimately I'd like both and I am haunted by someone I met many years ago who really wanted me physically, I flatly turned her advances down, it was a very unpleasant experience and I do not want to be in that position again.  Maybe on some level its why I find very attractive people attractive because I know there is zero chance I will ever be in that situation and I know my lack of flirting and inability means I will never get anywhere with them either. Though I do hope that one day I would find one who does find me attractive, not that I'd ever know.

Its also why after that I stopped going on dates with people I did not find attractive but equally a lack of experience got me nowhere on the vast minority of dates I went on with people I did find attractive. 

 

[DaterSA]

11 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

One thing that is definitely Not charming is a pity-party and blaming the world for your woes when all you do is hide behind the scenes terrified of women and allow business connections to seem like pickup opportunities and coworkers to fix you up. The misogyny of your "transactional" thinking won't help you either. 

Not terrified at all but totally devoid of confidence and this is pretty obvious to anyone who meets me. I cant change the world but I do accept it even if I disagree with parts of it. For me the greatest sense of confidence comes from accomplishing things, even small ones but when it comes to dating, I have pretty much lost before I even start. 

How on earth does meeting someone at  business event differ from someone trying to pick up someone at a coffee shop or a book store? Or does I need to resort to contrived events like speed dating or specific singles clubs. 

I have been around long enough to know I am not a pick up guy, every single time the charismatic, charming, confident guys arrive and at that point its game over for me. 

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, DaterSA said:

Its good to know this can actually work because ultimately I think I think I might be better at this than dating. Though the times I did try this it was a very much a specific friendship with a specific transactional purpose in part, I had some skill or knowledge she needed so it sort of worked.

Trust me I am honest enough to sit down in front of dates and I do not bother being anyone other than who I am, I am pretty much at the point "take it or leave it".

I mean it "worked" in the sense that I'm glad I was close friends with this person.  Ironically my husband ended up being friendly with his wife -not separately- they just had more in common than he did with my friend.  And  through him I made another close female friend who I've now been good friends with around 20 years too.  It didn't "work" in the sense of him suddenly being attracted to me - never went there, not even a bit - but that wasn't my goal(except in the very beginning) -had it been the friendship likely wouldn't have worked.

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, DaterSA said:

How on earth does meeting someone at  business event differ from someone trying to pick up someone at a coffee shop or a book store? Or does I need to resort to contrived events like speed dating or specific singles clubs. 

Singles events are contrived like pickle ball events are -people who go have something in common.  Just like networking events are contrived. It's not about picking someone up it's about connecting with people.  Men and women. 

I met potential dates at business and volunteer events for sure (like my husband as mentioned). You were talking about using a specific business relationship to get a date.  It's like this analogy -I get approached regularly by women in one of my mom groups to meet up -and - this is so frustrating for me -I've realized that I need to figure out in a number of those situations whether there is a MLM or sales related motive. 

In one case we met becasue we had so much in common but I told her bluntly I would never buy her product or get involved in her business.  Annoyingly she still tried to an extent but mostly it was ok.  So in your case this woman might feel similarly duped unless the business relationship was very very beneficial to her, separately. 

[DaterSA]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

I mean it "worked" in the sense that I'm glad I was close friends with this person.  Ironically my husband ended up being friendly with his wife -not separately- they just had more in common than he did with my friend.  And  through him I made another close female friend who I've now been good friends with around 20 years too.  It didn't "work" in the sense of him suddenly being attracted to me - never went there, not even a bit - but that wasn't my goal(except in the very beginning) -had it been the friendship likely wouldn't have worked.

I think there is a lot of good to be said for that and knowing the boundaries and respecting them. Nobody around me really understands my thinking, sadly for most of them hooking up and that way of life is what they do, I'll admit I am jealous some of the time. Morally not sure I could live that sort of life though.

Its tough going to places where everyone is paired up and I am the only single there because inevitably they want to know why I am single. Some of the time I do wonder if taking a friend(assuming I had one) would be an idea but that is dismissed because they would then tease her as to I am dateless and having been laid and it would just be awkward.

I just pretty much own what is.

[Batya33]

3 minutes ago, DaterSA said:

Nobody around me really understands my thinking, sadly for most of them hooking up and that way of life is what they do, I'll admit I am jealous some of the time. Morally not sure I could live that sort of life though.

Then you have control to find other people to be around you.  I did that many times over.  I still do in my life now.  Not just "bad influence" just -nothing in common etc.  Passivity has no place in making friends/finding a partner.  I don't think hooking up between consenting single adults is morally wrong. Any more than you having ulterior motives for starting a "business relationship".  I was jealous of those of my friends for whom it seemed to come so easy -marriage and family were just boxes they checked off like college/getting a job/starting a career.  It was extremely difficult for me.  But because of my goals that I had for 25 years before I attained them-totally worth it.  

[DaterSA]

5 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Singles events are contrived like pickle ball events are -people who go have something in common.  Just like networking events are contrived. It's not about picking someone up it's about connecting with people.  Men and women. 

I met potential dates at business and volunteer events for sure (like my husband as mentioned). You were talking about using a specific business relationship to get a date.  It's like this analogy -I get approached regularly by women in one of my mom groups to meet up -and - this is so frustrating for me -I've realized that I need to figure out in a number of those situations whether there is a MLM or sales related motive. 

In one case we met becasue we had so much in common but I told her bluntly I would never buy her product or get involved in her business.  Annoyingly she still tried to an extent but mostly it was ok.  So in your case this woman might feel similarly duped unless the business relationship was very very beneficial to her, separately. 

Well for her it would be a very good networking opportunity with a very difficult to reach target market, I live the life of a chameleon in the sense there are a lot of great moments but its a case of all those come at cost to lesser and greater degrees.

Honestly, I'd help her network irrespective if she dated me so my view is looking more on the things I am good at and that is helping others where I can. I can be criticized for many thing but being unkind and ungenerous are not two of those things. This want to help also does not help dating either, in the past its proven to be problematic because its easy to misread gratitude for interest.

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, DaterSA said:

Well for her it would be a very good networking opportunity with a very difficult to reach target market, I live the life of a chameleon in the sense there are a lot of great moments but its a case of all those come at cost to lesser and greater degrees.

Honestly, I'd help her network irrespective if she dated me so my view is looking more on the things I am good at and that is helping others where I can. I can be criticized for many thing but being unkind and ungenerous are not two of those things. This want to help also does not help dating either, in the past its proven to be problematic because its easy to misread gratitude for interest.

I'm not criticizing you.  I don't think you should pursue dating right now for the same exact reasons I've mentioned in many of your threads which your posts -including this one -remind me of.

[DaterSA]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Then you have control to find other people to be around you.  I did that many times over.  I still do in my life now.  Not just "bad influence" just -nothing in common etc.  Passivity has no place in making friends/finding a partner.  I don't think hooking up between consenting single adults is morally wrong. Any more than you having ulterior motives for starting a "business relationship".  I was jealous of those of my friends for whom it seemed to come so easy -marriage and family were just boxes they checked off like college/getting a job/starting a career.  It was extremely difficult for me.  But because of my goals that I had for 25 years before I attained them-totally worth it.  

My entire life revolves around work so its not like I can cut that web away, I just do not go to those sort of functions anymore barring one annual one I do go to and its awash with the usual glam, the usual attractive people, mostly couples and for every single lady there are 5 guys so its never a favorable numbers game for me. I think hooking up and throwing away and manipulating to hook up and spinning false stories is morally wrong to me. 

I suppose being me has one benefit, ladies see me as this shy/awkward guy in some respects those who do talk to me are more relaxed.

[DaterSA]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

I'm not criticizing you.  I don't think you should pursue dating right now for the same exact reasons I've mentioned in many of your threads which your posts -including this one -remind me of.

I am never going to change so I may as well try work with what I have and try make the most of it, even if it means trying to do the fundamentally impossible. 

Still very unsold on the friends versus dating. Rejection is never a nice feeling, not when it happens over and over again and there is nothing positive in between.

 

[Wiseman2]

18 minutes ago, DaterSA said:

 Rejection is never a nice feeling, 

Perhaps it's time to redefine your definition of "rejection" in a less victim-mentality manner? Just because everything you want in life isn't just handed to you, it doesn't mean it's a "rejection". It means some things are unavailable. For example if you don't win at the slot machines, it's not a "rejection", it's just not getting something for nothing. 

[DaterSA]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

Perhaps it's time to redefine your definition of "rejection" in a less victim-mentality manner? Just because everything you want in life isn't just handed to you, it doesn't mean it's a "rejection". It means some things are unavailable. For example if you don't win at the slot machines, it's not a "rejection", it's just not getting something for nothing. 

Well it must be nice to have things delivered on a plate, I cant say I have ever had that, instead the only way I have got anywhere is simply proving the naysayers wrong.

If dating someone who is attractive to me is "unavailable" then honesty what is the point? Not sure where you come with victim mentality, they chose everyone else but me, that is their choice, I did not meet their requirements and thus they passed. What you cannot do is then complain that the requirements are unrealistic, how can they be when people find people they find attractive so clearly that base requirement is not unrealistic at all.

 

[Wiseman2]

30 minutes ago, DaterSA said:

  simply proving the naysayers wrong.

Exactly. This is a pointless pursuit. It's not getting you any closer to anything. 

It's true. Right-wing supermodels are simply not going to fall out of the sky into your lap and adore you with no effort from you whatsoever. Maybe that's unfair to you, but somehow everyone else deals with that "rejection".

[DaterSA]

22 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Exactly. This is a pointless pursuit. It's not getting you any closer to anything. 

It's true. Right-wing supermodels are simply not going to fall out of the sky into your lap and adore you with no effort from you whatsoever. Maybe that's unfair to you, but somehow everyone else deals with that "rejection".

How do you define effort, let me guess the only way people seem able to exist "therapy"? Therapy is like reading a text book full of theory which actually does not actually apply to the actual job at hand. I have sat on enough expensive couches to here the same old rubbish which has about as much relevance to me as the weather in Cairo. 

Please do tell me how you define effort? 

I'll choose to note but ignore your derogatory comment.

 

 

[Wiseman2]

8 minutes ago, DaterSA said:

. I have sat on enough expensive couches to here the same old rubbish 

That's ok. It doesn't work or seem necessary for everyone. It's not necessarily going to get you the attractive unobtainable women you want anyway. 

[DaterSA]

20 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

That's ok. It doesn't work or seem necessary for everyone. It's not necessarily going to get you the attractive unobtainable women you want anyway. 

What is unobtainable, here I thought everyone was the same. 

[rainbowsandroses]

@SA, the woman you dated for around a year a couple of years ago, may have been last year, how did that whole thing start?  

Did you start as friends or did you meet, feel a mutual attraction and ask her out, or did she ask you out? 

She also wasn't a "10" from what you described but she was warm and giving which qualities you found endearing, you vibed together well and she was VERY much into you. 

Is there some reason you believe that can't happen again?  Some people go literally years between relationships and meeting a person they click with, admire and respect..

I guess I'm not really understanding why you're so down on yourself, if it happened once it CAN happen and most likely will happen again. 

Without you having to force it or strategize ways of getting it.

 

 

[Batya33]

3 hours ago, DaterSA said:

I am never going to change so I may as well try work with what I have and try make the most of it, even if it means trying to do the fundamentally impossible. 

Still very unsold on the friends versus dating. Rejection is never a nice feeling, not when it happens over and over again and there is nothing positive in between.

 

If you’re not going to change that’s fine. If so I wouldn’t attempt dating. In order for me -personally - to have a healthy marriage and to have had many positive romantic relationships I had to be open to change open to personal growth and evolving open to diffenretcattotude and perspectives. I wouldn’t make drastic changes like change my values, my basic beliefs including spiritual and moral and religious but making changes in the name of personal growth and being part of a healthy relationship I mean of course. I think that’s typical. With rare exception. And I change in my own for me and for my marriage and family - it’s a choice I make often based on being open minded and wanting to be close instead of right. 
You are entitled not to change. No one is required to date or get married or be in a serious romantic relationship. I suggest you not venture there given your attitude. 

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, DaterSA said:

Well it must be nice to have things delivered on a plate, I cant say I have ever had that, instead the only way I have got anywhere is simply proving the naysayers wrong.

If dating someone who is attractive to me is "unavailable" then honesty what is the point? Not sure where you come with victim mentality, they chose everyone else but me, that is their choice, I did not meet their requirements and thus they passed. What you cannot do is then complain that the requirements are unrealistic, how can they be when people find people they find attractive so clearly that base requirement is not unrealistic at all.

 

Because who is attractive to you is informed by your negative attitudes and generalizations. I believe who you are attracted to would change a lot with an attitude change. I put in tons of effort - mostly of the proactive getting myself out there variety from a mostly positive perspective. 

[Jaunty]

4 hours ago, DaterSA said:

I am never going to change

 

Yeah, clearly.

So take this to heart:  ALL adult people who want their lives to be different, to develop a skill they don't have, to achieve something that has eluded them, have to be willing to grow, learn and change, and then to put in the effort and time to do that.

You are not willing.  That is 100% consistent in your myriad almost identical threads on these boards.

Of course you are not going to "get" anything different.   You put in the same, you'll continue to get out the same.  

What is the difficulty you're having with grasping this?  It's a universal fact, except for the outlying strokes of miraculous luck that strike here and there.

[DaterSA]

8 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Because who is attractive to you is informed by your negative attitudes and generalizations. I believe who you are attracted to would change a lot with an attitude change. I put in tons of effort - mostly of the proactive getting myself out there variety from a mostly positive perspective. 

I value your opinion. Those I find attractive are people I have met who were not merely attractive for how they looked but for who they were as people, perhaps I neglected to mention those I found attractive I generally spent some time with rather than basing attraction on physical looks.

Once I met a personal trainer, forget how she looked, I enjoyed the conversation so it's not just one thing for, however I am absolutely not interested in people where there is zero attraction at all. In my perfect world attraction is not defined by one thing but rather a collective.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, DaterSA said:

I value your opinion. Those I find attractive are people I have met who were not merely attractive for how they looked but for who they were as people, perhaps I neglected to mention those I found attractive I generally spent some time with rather than basing attraction on physical looks.

Once I met a personal trainer, forget how she looked, I enjoyed the conversation so it's not just one thing for, however I am absolutely not interested in people where there is zero attraction at all. In my perfect world attraction is not defined by one thing but rather a collective.

Yes- my same point -what you are attracted to collectively most likely will change a lot once your attraction to yourself changes -so to speak -and once  you are rid of most of your negative attitudes about people, society, etc.  

[DaterSA]

4 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

@SA, the woman you dated for around a year a couple of years ago, may have been last year, how did that whole thing start?  

Did you start as friends or did you meet, feel a mutual attraction and ask her out, or did she ask you out? 

She also wasn't a "10" from what you described but she was warm and giving which qualities you found endearing, you vibed together well and she was VERY much into you. 

Is there some reason you believe that can't happen again?  Some people go literally years between relationships and meeting a person they click with, admire and respect..

I guess I'm not really understanding why you're so down on yourself, if it happened once it CAN happen and most likely will happen again. 

Without you having to force it or strategize ways of getting it.

It actually started with a date from a dating site, my attraction to her was her personality and for once I could just be me (more on that) and felt comfortable with her the first time I met her, she is also very smart, has lived a life, has the baggage of life most of us have and I always appreciated she was who she was. 

Everything was new with her, I had to go a long way out of my comfort zone often and I really did try but the sad fact I did not deserve here and I understand why she ultimately broke up with me. She was very forgiven of my issues and I try to be a more complete person. The problem was she wanted more than I could give, we are in different places in life and part of me always wondered how I managed to find someone who could seemingly overlook my long list of issues.

The reality is I waited 20 years to find her but when I think back I was just very very lucky, I do not back myself to have that luck again, time goes on, my marketability becomes less, people become less forgiving of 40 yo guys with no relationship history and little experience, both these things seem to matter a lot.

Add in all the other issues I have and sadly logic would dictate I am not likely to find anyone at all hence why I need to feel the need to try and make things happen, its become more and more difficult being the single outcast when everyone else is single. The experiences become worse and worse to, about two weeks ago I got to a social event and again someone there decided its a good idea to try get me chatting to the other single person there, immediately the conversation is awkward and I can see she is not interested. Maybe it should not bother me but it does. 

Maybe nobody here can relate but its like they look down at me, it either becomes "yuck he is unattractive/boring" or its "shame he is single and its a pity party". 

After that relationship I also know I am missing out significantly so that hurts too. 

In truth I have probably stopped trying, flip that fact someone looks at the best pic of me and wont even meet for coffee, that tells me a lot, the fact the matches I get are wholly unattractive, again that tells me a lot. 

A few years ago I tried with someone I really did like and got thrown on the scrap heap there too, the point is whenever I try I just get thrown away and this no matter how you spin it, over a period of time this does hurt. 

I can open up here and take whatever gets thrown back at me but just imagine who would actually want to go on a date with me, virtually nobody, who I am cannot be hidden and I feel no reason to hide it either. 

Everyday I live with a lot of things, two of them are how I managed to mess about just about the only relationship I ever had and the other is I am seemingly never good enough to be chosen over anyone else.  This is not pity, its reality I face, pretending its not the truth is just stupid. The medicine for both of these to do more for others, focus on things I am good at and the good parts of the world around me. The third medicine is looking back the good experiences I have had, irrelevant to this forum but they were good for me and I enjoyed them.

 

[SooSad33]

On 9/13/2023 at 8:35 AM, DaterSA said:

The person in question runs a company and I actually want to engage this company to do some hospitality work for a function I am having, why because they are good at what they do. In my mind this seems like a somewhat flawed way to meet someone and an even more awkward based from which to show interest but again I might be wrong. On the flip side of it would she really want to get to know one of her clients, probably not.

Because I do quite a lot of events I was thinking of inviting her to an event with me to see the sort of events we have which would make it easier for her to work with us on planning one but again this seems flawed. 

Honestly, I think you should stop trying to get involved with anyone within a work place.  Why make things harder and awkward?

Try dating sites... take a tour see what IS available to approach.

And maybe also stop thinking so hard on it all.  Just because something doesn;t work out, doesn't always mean it's because of something you're doing wrong.

But, confidence is key.  And when you do meet up with a supposed 'date', be yourself.  Be nice, joke around, just don't over do it! ( I've been on dates, where guys act out like they're teens- which is a turn off). 

[SooSad33]

1 hour ago, DaterSA said:

Everyday I live with a lot of things, two of them are how I managed to mess about just about the only relationship I ever had and the other is I am seemingly never good enough to be chosen over anyone else.  This is not pity, its reality I face, pretending its not the truth is just stupid. The medicine for both of these to do more for others, focus on things I am good at and the good parts of the world around me. The third medicine is looking back the good experiences I have had, irrelevant to this forum but they were good for me and I enjoyed them.

 

Ohh, k.  What's the longest relationship you've had?  Any Long term?

When they do come to an end, to they explain why?