girls kissing girls

[dw_rc...Confused]

I think its really really sick and weird. NOt everyone will like me saying this, but I really don't think that it's normal. Thats just my opionion, and everyone can have thier opinion. BUt I think its weird. ITs NOT hot.

 

That about sums it up!

[Shidoshi]

When was the last time you saw a naked women dancing in the street? Mardi Gras doesn't count.

Why not?

I was saying that instead of talking about strangers kissing, focus on your own life and get it in order so that you can meet someone of your own and be able to kiss her.

Huh!? I still don't understand what this has to do with getting a thrill out of seeing two girls kissing. Are you saying that if a guy enjoys seeing it, it must mean he isn't kissing girls himself? That makes no sense at all (if that's what you're implying).

I'm not going to bother with who is kissing whom, all that matters to me is that I end up kissing that right person who means the world to be.

If I see two girls kissing, why would it be a bother? It is quite effortless for me to turn my head and open my eyes, because that's all it takes. I might not even have to turn my head.

If it is because women are femine, then men should be masculine. This is why I said it would mean getting into what people consider to be masculine or feminie traits.

How about this, why don't YOU ask women who find men kissing disturbing to watch, WHY they think so. I'm telling you what was said to me by women.

Based upon what I know of you I would think you would be one to go under traditional patterns of "real men" being strong, sturdy, the breadwinner who wears the pants in the family, doesn't cry, is in control, etc.

Well, not everything you've mentioned, but I think you have the right idea.

Guys can show emotions, hug instead of shake hands.

Ahh see, your assumptions are incorrect. I DO show emotions, and I do hug other guys when "appropriate."

Women can be just as rough and tumble as guys.

That really depends on what exactly you mean by "rough and tumble." Also, most guys find it to be a turn-off if a woman is a TOO masculine.

I don't see anything exciting about two women going at it.

Never said you should.

And I don't see how it is feminine, whatever that really means.

In comparison to two men doing it, I think it's pretty feminine.

It's no big deal people. There just two people kissing.

Some are amuzed by it, some aren't. When I saw it for the first time obviously it had more of an impact....

[ShySoul]

Are misinterpreting what I say on purpose? Cause you really missed everything I'm saying.

 

Huh!? I still don't understand what this has to do with getting a thrill out of seeing two girls kissing. Are you saying that if a guy enjoys seeing it, it must mean he isn't kissing girls himself?

 

It doesn't have anything to do with it and thats the point. The joy from actually kissing someone yourself is way greater then the joy from watching someone else kiss. So why don't you just kiss the girl and lose yourself in that. You'll get much more satisfaction. Watching two girls kissing doesn't really satisfy you unless we are talking a threesome or you finishing the job yourself afterwards. Whatever thrill you get, it pales to the actually kissing, so stop the looking and work on being in the position to kiss yourself.

 

If I see two girls kissing, why would it be a bother

 

By bother I mean that I'm not going to pay attention to it. I can just as easily turn my head away. And while I'm looking in the other direction I'll notice that cute girl who is looking in our direction, go and talk to her, and maybe end up kissing her before long. In the meantime, you'll have missed the chance cause you wanted to watch those two girls. Which position would you rather be in?

 

Also, most guys find it to be a turn-off if a woman is a TOO masculine.

 

And its a turn off if the girl is too feminine. So just let the person be who they are and not care about that stuff. We all have so called masculine and feminine tendencies regardless of our gender. So just appreciate the person for who they are.

 

In comparison to two men doing it, I think it's pretty feminine.

 

So something is femine if females are doing it. Congratulations, you've discovered the obvious definiton. But by that logic, two guys doing it would be masculine in comparison to girls doing it. So you go against your own argument.

 

Some are amuzed by it, some aren't. When I saw it for the first time obviously it had more of an impact....

 

Did you mean amazed or amused? Big difference. Never had any impact on me though.

[amour_13]

I totally agree with you Imagi. Lesbians kissing is wrong by society, but two girls kissing in a bar for attention is often seen as hot or appealing. What a contradiction.

[Santa]

It's alright.

Me and a friend once got paid £30 each to kiss each other in a bar once by a group of girls... I aint gay though, and to be honest, no passion what so ever in the kiss... easiest £30 I ever made.

[I_love_rain_hugs_and_you]

I think taht it's all sick!!!

 

I totally agree with you Imagi. Lesbians kissing is wrong by society, but two girls kissing in a bar for attention is often seen as hot or appealing. What a contradiction.

[SouthernSon]

Two girls kissing does nothing for me, never has.

[7CardStud]

doesn't bother me... wouldn't bother me if it was 2 guys... only thing i like is when my g/f kisses me, just as long its her. Why would i care what others do?

[self_cutter_101]

In my opinion, any 2 or more people of the same sex kissing is gross, like I wouldn't do it personally . But I don't really think that its wrong to do it b/c its their choice if they want 2 or not. Just like gay marriages, I don't think that 2 people should b denied marriage jus b/c they have the same body parts.

[Blackmsmithdave]

well girls kissing each other, it depends on the girls, ugly girls are not my thing, attractive girls kissing then yes it is a turn on. Just like two good looking guys kissing is a turn on, but then again im bi so, im not the norm.

 

Honestly im supprised that more guys have not said they like to whatch girls kiss, allmost every guy i know does like it. maybe im just not with the sensetive kind of people lol.

[Shidoshi]

Shidoshi wrote:

Quote:

I don't see where a girl kissing another girl is all that "feminine."

 

It is referred to as such because "women" are feminine. It is a very "feminine" act when you have 2 girls kissing, especially if they aren't gay or into each other in a sexual way. Straight women also hold each others hands, that is also considered "feminine" in that situation. You don't see guys holding each others hands, and I don't care how "close" two guys are, you aren't going to see them kissing unless they're gay (maybe with some extremely rare exceptions).

 

 

 

That didn't make any sense to me. If women are feminine and two women kissing makes it more feminine, then how come two men kissing is feminine if men are masculine?

I don't understand why this doesn't make sense. What would you consider the act of holding hands between two straight women? If you saw two grown men holding hands your immediate perception would be that they're gay right? Why do you think that is? I don't see kissing to be any different. If I wore a tight fitting dress outside in public do you think people would consider that a "masculine" thing to do? Using your logic they should, simply because I'm a guy.

 

I find that really weird; that men who could be gay are not a turn on and are seen as gross, but women that could be gay/bi are hot and should all be encouraged to be more gay/bi.

You said it yourself that YOU don't find two men kissing to be a "turn on." Who else but gay guys would be turned on by gay guys (some women are I guess)? Women who are attractive are "hot," it doesn't matter what their sexual preference is. If a girl is considered to be unattractive, being gay/bi surely wouldn't make people see her any differently.

I also find it weird that guys would do this to two women kissing, but if they saw a man and a woman kissing each other, they would just ignore it no matter how hot the girl is.

This is "weird" to you? Who hasn't seen a man and a woman kiss? It's everywhere, including your own lives. How often do you see two women kissing? That's part of why it gets attention, you don't see it nearly as much as men and women.

 

lol, why is everything so "weird" to you? Men and women don't behave the same way for a reason.

[ShySoul]

Sheyda,

 

Your great at expressing yourself, clear and too the point. I think what this comes down to is whats left of old fashioned gender stereotypes, as I was saying before. Women have traditionally been viewed as more sexualized, pretty little things, damsels in distress, etc. Men, on the other hand, are suppose to be strong figures who don't show as much emotions. Thus, when two women kiss it fits more with the stereotypes. There displaying affection and being sexual, what they are suppose to be doing. But when two men do it, it goes against what has been ingrained in our heads of how a man is suppose to be.

 

Personally, I'm with you. I don't really care and just mind my own business whether its two males, two females, or a male and a female. But we, and most girls, think with our brains, our big heads. Most guys, think with there smaller head. What can you do... most men are idiots.

[Shidoshi]

I was talking about whether something is seen as feminine or masculine, not whether it is seen as straight or gay. There is a difference; masculine and feminine are about whether something is traditionally regarded as a woman thing or a man thing and straight and gay are about what sex you are attracted to.

You missed the point I was trying to make, that's why I used the hand holding and dress analogy. Homosexual men typically display "feminine" traits and behaviors. I've found the opposite to be true in "some" lesbian females who have "masculine" traits/behaviors.

What you were saying about kissing is that two straight women kissing is feminine, but two straight men kissing would be feminine, too. It doesn't make any sense; if 1 woman = feminine and 2 women kissing = 2 x feminine, how come 1 man = masculine, but 2 men kissing = 2 x feminine? Can you see why I didn't get what you said, now?

The "act" between two men changes the way it's perceived. I understand what you're saying and I guess I'm giving you a simplified view.

Kissing is not a predominantly feminine thing (whereas wearing a dress is) or else all men who kiss their girlfriends must be extremely feminine according to your first statement.

That's why I used the "hand-holding" analogy. The act itself isn't feminine or masculine, but it depends on the situation it's being used in. What would your perception be if you saw two guys walking down the street holding each others hands?

I'm asking why do guys sexualise two girls kissing and treat it as some special "performance" just to please their fantasies, whereas most women would treat two guys kissing the same way as they would treat a man and a woman kissing; they see it as a normal thing, not as some show to please them.

I would say your wrong about most women seeing two guys kissing as "normal." It's probably becoming more normal these days but it would still attract attention. Part of why two women gets a lot of men excited is because it's still considered taboo, just like homosexuality. It turns men on because it's a sexual act and men are sexually attracted to women (normally). The act combined with the fact that it's seen as "wrong" makes for quite an arousing situation. Of course not all men are into it, as a few have mentioned in the thread.

Women kissing has become just as common as a man and a woman kissing.

Maybe where you live, but I don't see it as being just as common, unless you watch girl/girl pornography. I've seen it happen myself in a few places (clubs, bars, etc.) but it is far from being as common as men and women.

Sure, you might not see it as much as men and women kissing, but you don't see two men kissing much either and that's just as attention-grabbing as two women kissing, but most of us women still don't see it as a turn on, we just see it as something normal that's none of our business.

If they do it in public, it becomes your business. However, I'm not saying you should pay attention to it. Do you know why most women don't find it a turn on (two men)?

Well, thanks for being open-minded and not laughing at my opinions because they're different to your own. Not everyone is going to see things the same way as you and I think it would be pretty boring if everybody agreed with each other, anyway.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you with the laugh, I just found your opinions to be amuzing. I enjoy debating with people as you can probably tell.

It's true that most men and women do not act the same, but that does not mean that men sexualising an attractive bi/lesbian couple should be treated as something normal and acceptable.

Yet you find two men kissing to be normal? That makes no sense. Kissing is a sexual act, and I'm not referring to a simple peck. I consider seeing two women putting their tongues down each other's throats to be a pretty sexual act on it's own.

I'm sure they would not appreciate being whistled at and cheered on when they're trying to have a romantic night out together. That unwanted attention is classified as sexual harassment and I don't see why this should be accepted as "normal".

Now you're changing the argument and referring to specifics. No where in this thread does anybody mention such situations.

If it's two straight women kissing in a club for attention then that is different because they want the attention, but otherwise I think it is quite rude and intrusive. I'm sure you wouldn't want a bunch of rowdy men following you around shouting and whooping when you're on a date with someone special.

Where did all this come from?

[Shidoshi]

Personally, I'm with you. I don't really care and just mind my own business whether its two males, two females, or a male and a female. But we, and most girls, think with our brains, our big heads. Most guys, think with there smaller head. What can you do... most men are idiots.

Shy Shy Shy....my goodness man. Why is it so insulting for some men to get a thrill out of seeing attractive women kiss each other? Oh, and don't believe the hype sorounding the stereotype of men being the only ones thinking mostly with their genitals. We aren't the only ones, I know this for a fact. Then you say most of us are "idiots"? I hope you were joking.

[Shidoshi]

ShySoul wrote:

Personally, I'm with you. I don't really care and just mind my own business whether its two males, two females, or a male and a female. But we, and most girls, think with our brains, our big heads. Most guys, think with there smaller head. What can you do... most men are idiots.

 

 

LOL Well, that's certainly true about the majority of men I know around here. Good to know that there are some clever, nice and respectful guys out there, though.

LOL, you think Shy is guy?

Shidoshi wrote:

 

You missed the point I was trying to make, that's why I used the hand holding and dress analogy. Homosexual men typically display "feminine" traits and behaviors. I've found the opposite to be true in "some" lesbian females who have "masculine" traits/behaviors.

 

 

That's because it didn't really answer my question; I guess I didn't get it accross clearly enough.

I did answer your question, but you simply misunderstood, and disagreed with me. Trust me, I know exactly what you're saying.

And that's not true; I've known plenty of homosexual men who have not been feminine and several straight men who act quite feminine.

I know of many homosexual men who are feminine, and a few who aren't. I guess I can't really tell if they don't have feminine traits, unless they come out and say it (and yes, I know there are straight guys who are feminine, they're not all THAT common). Let me rephrase what I said about it being "typical." Rather, it is "stereotypical" (but it is a stereotype for a reason). As far as lesbians, I find it more common for atleast one of them (as a couple) to have some kind of masculine trait. I mean really, lets not pretend that being gay/lesbian is some "normal" thing.

What makes you say that feminine behaviour in gay men is typical whereas masculine behaviour is only typical to some lesbians?

This is based on my own experience, it's a general statement. Why does it seem so foreign to you? Do you think someone who is sexually attracted to the same sex is normal in every other way except when it comes to sex?

Well, the situation you gave was kissing someone of the same sex. Yet, with both genders you said it was feminine, so it didn't really make any sense.

Let me say it again, "it depends on the situation it is being used in."

I guess society does affect how you would view two people holding hands; women are naturally more touchy-feely with their friends (not in that way, but you know what I mean; it is in no way sexual when we sit on each others' laps or walk about with our arms around each other) so when seeing two women holding hands you would just think they are friends. Men aren't as touchy-feely with their friends so a lot of people would automatically assume they must be gay if they are holding hands.

This was golden. You don't even realize you've just explained the point I was trying to make out of all this.

However, women do not consider sticking their tongues down each other's throats as an ordinary friendly act, do they? So your comparison isn't exactly the best one to give me.

Perhaps the women who are actually "doing it" find it "ordinary." You're kind of all over the place so I don't know where this fits in to my comparison.

If something is considered feminine, it is assumed that it is traditionally a womanly thing and I'm pretty sure women kissing women isn't considered a traditional lady-like trait, unless all women around the world and throughout history are bi and lesbian and have been very public about it.

This is YOUR definition. I never said anything about "tradition." Look up the actual definition of "feminine."

You say you think I am wrong about most women and yet earlier on in the thread said this:

 

Shidoshi wrote:

Also, a lot of women probably wouldn't enjoy the sight of men kissing because the act between two men seems a bit too feminine. Women (straight, anyway) like "masculinity" in men, which isn't really conveyed when seeing them kissing each other. Atleast this is what I'm told by a few women that I've asked. I definitely can't speak for most of them.

 

 

If you can't speak for them, how can you know that I'm wrong about what most women think?

Do you realize that you agreed with me? I said they don't "enjoy" it. You say:

Anyway, what I meant is, they don't find it a turn-on

Exactly!!!

they just have more of a neutral attitude towards it, like most people would to a heterosexual couple kissing in the street. They don't hate it so much they feel like vomiting, but they don't go crazy over it, either; it's just something that's there.

Either way you look at it, they simply aren't into it.

Two gay men kissing is still considered taboo, but women don't get so hot over it like so many men do over women kissing.

Yes, because men and women aren't attracted to each other for the "same" reasons (of course we have "similarites").

Kissing is not always a sexual act. Like with the example I gave of the lesbian couple; for them it is something romantic and affectionate, but certain men would see it as an arousing performance just for them, which is wrong.

I never said kissing was "always" a sexual act. You're throwing in "specific" situations with regard to the lesbian couple having some romantic activity. Any attractive women who are kissing in public are going to draw attention, it doesn't matter whether they consider it sexual/nonsexual. What guy sees this and thinks to himself "yeah, they're doing it just for me"?

Shidoshi wrote:

Maybe where you live, but I don't see it as being just as common, unless you watch girl/girl pornography. I've seen it happen myself in a few places (clubs, bars, etc.) but it is far from being as common as men and women.

 

 

Well, it certainly is just as common, here. It seems that being "bi" and kissing girls in front of a bunch of guys has become the "in" thing for teenagers and women up into the late twenties. If you go to one website of a nightclub that has pictures, you will see literally thousands of women kissing each other.

I'm referring to what YOU see in real life, not images posted on the web. I'm aware that it is becoming more common place, but it still isn't as common. Then again, I guess it's pointless to argue about how common it is.

Okay, I definitely don't agree that if something is done in public it becomes your business. If two people are trying to have a conversation in a public place, such as a café, I don't think it would be socially acceptable to go sit down at their table and join in with their conversation when you are a complete stranger. I feel it's the same way with people kissing; people shouldn't bother them.

Who said anything about "bothering" them? If I "hear" things you're saying then it isn't really private is it? Why on earth would I say it's alright to physically move yourself into the personal space of strangers and intrude on them?

As for why women don't find it a turn on, maybe it's because they see the gay men as people and not sexual tools.

Good enough reason for me.

Shidoshi wrote:

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you with the laugh, I just found your opinions to be amuzing. I enjoy debating with people as you can probably tell.

 

 

I still find it offensive that you would state that someone else's opinion is amusing (not just mine, anyone's). I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy if everyone who replied to this thread just laughed at you and said "Your opinions are hilarious!" That's not very respectful towards your fellow forumites, is it? In fact it is rather condescending.

Why is it wrong to find someones opinion to be amusing, especially in this context? We're not exactly talking about rape are we? You're taking it far too personally. I didn't say I found your opinions to be "hilarious" did I? I think "condescending" is a pretty overboard statement. We're simply having a debate, why not just leave it at that.

Anyway, even if there was no noise or rowdiness, or anything, I certainly wouldn't like being stared at while I'm kissing my partner, whether they were a guy or a girl. Even if it is in public, it's still rude to gawp at someone with a dumbfounded expression on your face, your mouth wide open and a trail drool dripping down the front of your shirt.

You keep bringing up harassment and so forth and that isn't what I'm talking about at all.

Shidoshi wrote:

Oh, and don't believe the hype sorounding the stereotype of men being the only ones thinking mostly with their genitals. We aren't the only ones, I know this for a fact.

 

 

So, howcome women have a mostly neutral attitude towards men kissing and yet a lot of guys go insane over just seeing two girls kissing?

Again, because we don't have the same sexual tastes (although we have similarites).

Shidoshi wrote:

Then you say most of us are "idiots"? I hope you were joking.

 

 

Didn't you see the smilie?

Actually I saw a wink, and I think there's a lot of "truth" in humor. I mean it isn't really a big deal, he just posted that sensitive stuff to keep you from going to bed crying at my horrible, inhuman comments........

I never personally attacked you about anything, we're having a friendly argument. I'm talking to you the same way I would talk to any guy on the board, the women on these forums seem to take things so personally (I know why but that would be another debate in itself probably). Don't hold back any comments even if you feel I would be offended, I invite it. It gives "life" to the argument.

[ShySoul]

Hey Shidoshi, looks like you found a new debating partner. I don't like your odd of success, Sheyda is one smart cookie.

 

LOL Well, that's certainly true about the majority of men I know around here. Good to know that there are some clever, nice and respectful guys out there, though

 

Few and far between, but thats what makes them so special. When you find one, grab on to him, you don't deserve anything less.

 

Shy Shy Shy....my goodness man. Why is it so insulting for some men to get a thrill out of seeing attractive women kiss each other? Oh, and don't believe the hype sorounding the stereotype of men being the only ones thinking mostly with their genitals. We aren't the only ones, I know this for a fact. Then you say most of us are "idiots"? I hope you were joking.

 

Did I ever say it was insulting or are you putting words in my mouth? I said that i don't get the big deal and don't care for it. When I said men are idiots, I'm referring to the general level of maturity of those I've been around. And of those people, the women have always been much smarter and more mature in general. There are exceptions, but its my experience that women are just all around better.

 

And, not like this was my goal, but note the response I got. A favorable response from a female. Stuff like that is a great way to have women be more inclined to show you attention.

 

Actually I saw a wink, and I think there's a lot of "truth" in humor. I mean it isn't really a big deal, he just posted that sensitive stuff to keep you from going to bed crying at my horrible, inhuman comments........

 

It had nothing to do with you (not everything is about you, you know ). I've just always happened to like Sheyda's writing and agree with most of what she says. And she took up arguing in this post when I had stopped. So I just wanted to say I agreed and put a smile on her face. A playful, innocent compliment.

 

I'm talking to you the same way I would talk to any guy on the board, the women on these forums seem to take things so personally

 

A good female friend of mines just pointed this out to me, there's your trouble. Your talking to her like you would talk to any GUY. Guys tend to get caught up in winning an argument, you've shown that tendency with me a number of times. Girls, on the other hand, have a more rationale and reasonable approach. They tend to listen better. I haven't read through the last couple of posts from you guys, but if you are writing the same way you write to me, its no wonder girls would take your comments personally.

 

To effectively communicate with girls you need to understand how they think and how they feel. Master that art, and you can do anything.

 

Ok, back to the kissing debate. Personally, while your here arguing about it, I'm going to be working on getting the most romantic kiss you'll ever hear of.

[Shidoshi]

ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! SHYSOUL!!!!! I don't have time to post a response right now, but I definitely will later. Peace!

[Shidoshi]

Hey Shidoshi, looks like you found a new debating partner.

You know me, I'll debate with anyone who's willing.

Quote:

LOL Well, that's certainly true about the majority of men I know around here. Good to know that there are some clever, nice and respectful guys out there, though

 

 

Few and far between, but thats what makes them so special. When you find one, grab on to him, you don't deserve anything less.

lol, why are you posting this?

Quote:

Shy Shy Shy....my goodness man. Why is it so insulting for some men to get a thrill out of seeing attractive women kiss each other? Oh, and don't believe the hype sorounding the stereotype of men being the only ones thinking mostly with their genitals. We aren't the only ones, I know this for a fact. Then you say most of us are "idiots"? I hope you were joking.

 

 

Did I ever say it was insulting or are you putting words in my mouth? I said that i don't get the big deal and don't care for it.

You didn't say those words, but it's kind of implied in your comments.

When I said men are idiots, I'm referring to the general level of maturity of those I've been around. And of those people, the women have always been much smarter and more mature in general. There are exceptions, but its my experience that women are just all around better.

What?!? You've got to be kidding me. I'm actually surprised you'd say that, maybe I've been giving you too much credit. That's probably the most ignorant comment I've ever seen you post. What are you, some kind of "feminist"?

And, not like this was my goal, but note the response I got. A favorable response from a female. Stuff like that is a great way to have women be more inclined to show you attention.

I, unlike you, am not looking for a "favorable response from a female." I'm debating with a "person."

Quote:

Actually I saw a wink, and I think there's a lot of "truth" in humor. I mean it isn't really a big deal, he just posted that sensitive stuff to keep you from going to bed crying at my horrible, inhuman comments........

 

 

It had nothing to do with you (not everything is about you, you know ). I've just always happened to like Sheyda's writing and agree with most of what she says. And she took up arguing in this post when I had stopped. So I just wanted to say I agreed and put a smile on her face. A playful, innocent compliment.

lol, come on Shy, who are you trying to fool. Your intentions are quite obvious and laughable now that your denying your true reasons for posting.

Quote:

I'm talking to you the same way I would talk to any guy on the board, the women on these forums seem to take things so personally

 

 

A good female friend of mines just pointed this out to me, there's your trouble. Your talking to her like you would talk to any GUY. Guys tend to get caught up in winning an argument, you've shown that tendency with me a number of times.

I already know why I offend "some" women here. I do however love the women who can argue with me and not take things personally to the point where they need to make an issue out of it. I can't help my reasons for wanting to debate with somebody, but that doesn't change the argument itself. You argued with me in the same fashion that I argued with you. I didn't approach it any differently.

Girls, on the other hand, have a more rationale and reasonable approach. They tend to listen better.

Girls have a more rational and reasonable approach? I'm really starting to worry about you.

To effectively communicate with girls you need to understand how they think and how they feel. Master that art, and you can do anything.

I wasn't looking to exchange beauty tips here. I'm well aware of how I come off to people (including women).

Ok, back to the kissing debate. Personally, while your here arguing about it, I'm going to be working on getting the most romantic kiss you'll ever hear of.

For your sake, I hope....no, PRAY it happens soon. God knows you need that more than anything else right now.

[ShySoul]

Ah, Shidoshi. You once admitted to me that you try to push my buttons and get under my skin. Well it doesn't work. I enjoy your posts to me, there pretty funny. The thing with you is that your debating for the sake of debating and seeing how someone will react. It isn't really about the issue with you. But hey, thats cool. Lets see what comments of yours I can find the obvious holes in. And don't worry, me doing this can only make you a stronger debater.

 

What?!? You've got to be kidding me. I'm actually surprised you'd say that, maybe I've been giving you too much credit. That's probably the most ignorant comment I've ever seen you post. What are you, some kind of "feminist"?

 

No joke. It's been shown that women mature faster then men. And I've always got along better with women because of that maturity factor. I've said it plenty of times in the past, so why so surprised? And I'm not a feminist, i just call it like I see it.

 

You didn't say those words, but it's kind of implied in your comments.

 

Can't take a joke? Lighten up man. Its a good quality to be able to laugh at yourself. And for the record, everyone has the same potential, no one is an idiot. Its just that some choose to act foolishly.

 

I, unlike you, am not looking for a "favorable response from a female." I'm debating with a "person."

 

I said that wasn't my goal either, read more closely. I'm just aware that the responses a do get tend to be favorable. And I've engaged in many debates with people. Those who happen to be female tend to end up as the better debates.

 

lol, come on Shy, who are you trying to fool. Your intentions are quite obvious and laughable now that your denying your true reasons for posting.

 

My intentions are the same as they always are on here, to help someone. Sometimes that means just saying a kind word and making a person smile. I deny nothing. I said I tend to agree with Sheyda, I said I wanted to make her smile. What exactly am I denying?

 

You argued with me in the same fashion that I argued with you. I didn't approach it any differently.

 

The way I debate is too get through to the person. It's taking what the other says that makes no sense and showing why. I can't help it if its just easier to do that with you or if the women make better points and challenge me more. Point I was making is when dealing with women, actually everyone but particularly women, is to understand where they are coming from. That way you better relate to what they are saying and there is a greater chance at reaching a consensus .

 

Girls have a more rational and reasonable approach? I'm really starting to worry about you.

 

You don't know that? I'm really worrying about you.

 

I wasn't looking to exchange beauty tips here. I'm well aware of how I come off to people (including women).

 

Hope that was a joke. First you stereotype women as wanting to discuss beauty tips and then you say your ok with coming off like this too people and women in particular? Yep, worrying...

 

For your sake, I hope....no, PRAY it happens soon. God knows you need that more than anything else right now.

 

I need a kiss? Nope I need love. But don't worry, I get the kiss and I'll get it because I understand women. You might want to learn.

[Shidoshi]

Shidoshi wrote:

I did answer your question, but you simply misunderstood, and disagreed with me. Trust me, I know exactly what you're saying.

 

 

Not really. I asked if feminine + feminine = feminine, how does masculine + masculine = feminine. And you responded by saying that two women holding hands are seen as straight friends, two men holding hands are seen as gay and then said that a predominantly feminine thing acted out by a man (wearing a dress) would be seen as feminine. It didn't answer my question because I was talking about femininity and masculinity, not sexuality and kissing is not a predominantly feminine thing, so it cannot be compared to a man wearing a dress.

For starters, feminine + feminine = feminine, and masculine + masculine = feminine isn't how I look at things. That isn't how I would describe the points I'm trying to make. You are misinterpreting what I'm saying. Ok, forget the "dress", I thought it would be easy to understand where I was going with that but I was wrong. Take the holding of hands, it isn't really a feminine or masculine thing in and of itself, but it's meaning changes depending on "how it's being used," just like kissing.

Shidoshi wrote:

 

I know of many homosexual men who are feminine, and a few who aren't. I guess I can't really tell if they don't have feminine traits, unless they come out and say it (and yes, I know there are straight guys who are feminine, they're not all THAT common). Let me rephrase what I said about it being "typical." Rather, it is "stereotypical" (but it is a stereotype for a reason). As far as lesbians, I find it more common for atleast one of them (as a couple) to have some kind of masculine trait. I mean really, lets not pretend that being gay/lesbian is some "normal" thing.

 

 

I agree with what you're saying here apart from homosexuality being abnormal.

Are you saying you think it's normal?

And I didn't think the idea of a gay man being feminine or a lesbian being masculine was weird; that wasn't what I was reacting to. But yes, I do think that someone who is attracted to the same sex is perfectly normal.

I guess that answers my previous question, and it says a lot about why you find things weird about the behavior of everyone else. You've adopted this attitude about gay/lesbian/bi as being perfectly normal so it's becoming evident why you disagree with me. What makes this more interesting, is that you find straight men who get a rise out seeing women kiss as being weird. Wow, I'd love to know what your definition of "normal" is.

I've met various straight men who are feminine and straight women who are masculine and I don't think that someone's personality quirks make them a freak of nature; it's just something that makes us individuals.

I don't really see anything wrong with a "straight" person. That to me is normal even if they display more of the character traits of the opposite sex. Now someone who his sexually attracted to the same sex doesn't just have a personality "quirk." It goes much deeper than that. I'm also not saying I have anything against homosexual people, I believe they're atleast born with that tendency to some degree.

Shidoshi wrote:

 

Let me say it again, "it depends on the situation it is being used in."

 

 

So, if it depends on the situation, how can you compare the hand-holding to same sex kissing when they are both different situations?

You already explained it. You said if people see two guys holding hands they will automatically assume they are gay, but with two women it is considered normal behavior. With kissing, I'm saying it ALSO depends on how and who is doing it.

Shidoshi wrote:

 

This was golden. You don't even realize you've just explained the point I was trying to make out of all this.

 

 

That might be your point, but I was just answering your question (about what people think when they see men holding hands) and I actually went on to explain how it makes no sense

Well, your answer explains my point of view, and you seem to understand it quite well. You think it makes no sense when people assume that two men they see holding hands are gay?

No, they don't. I doubt any straight female will find swapping saliva with a friend an ordinary friendly action. Do all of your female friends stick their tongues down each others' throats when they say "hello" to each other?

It doesn't have to be "friendly" and "ordinary." If they're actually doing it, do you think they hate it? My female friends (some that I know) wouldn't do it at all because they find it gross in the same way I would find it gross to kiss another man.

Like most other people have said they are either straight women doing it for attention or they are a bi/lesbian couple (which means it's not a friendly act).

There's a fine line between what is considered bi and lesbian behavior. How can you be this sure that you know exactly why all females who do this, do it?

Let me go over this again... When I asked why two women and two men kissing are both feminine acts you said it is like women holding hands; a "feminine" act. However this is a friendly action between women, whereas kissing—to you—is a sexual act. How can you compare a friendly act with what you consider to be a sexual act and say "because this friendly act is feminine, this sexual act is also feminine"?

Again, I didn't say absolutely ALL kissing is sexual. Straight women holding hands is considered a normal friendly behavior, where as men holding hands is not. Women can be that close without any sexual feelings. If you see two men kissing, would you think they were just platonic friends?

That is like saying that men patting each other on the back is a masculine thing (since this is what most male friends do as a friendly act), so men kissing (what you consider to be a sexual act) must also be a masculine thing. That's using the same reasoning as yourself when you say that women kissing is feminine.

You are confusing things again. Did I not say the act itself isn't feminine or masculine, but it depends on the situation it's being used in? Two men kissing is seen as a feminine act because straight men don't kiss their male friends on the lips, they wouldn't feel comfortable doing it at all, not for attention or any other reason.

Shidoshi wrote:

 

This is YOUR definition. I never said anything about "tradition." Look up the actual definition of "feminine."

 

 

... That is the definition of feminine in the dictionary. Look up the actual definition before stating that I've made up the meaning of a word.

I'll do better, I'll post it.

 

1. Of or relating to women or girls. See Synonyms at female.

2. Characterized by or possessing qualities generally attributed to a

woman.

3. Effeminate; womanish.

4. Grammar. Designating or belonging to the gender of words or

grammatical forms that refer chiefly to females or to things classified

as female.

link removed

Shidoshi wrote:

 

Do you realize that you agreed with me? I said they don't "enjoy" it. You say:

Quote:

Anyway, what I meant is, they don't find it a turn-on

 

Exactly!!!

 

 

The point of what I said was not that they should find it arousing, though. I already said "they don't find it a turn on" the first time I mentioned it

Ok, so why did you say it again?

And then you just keep saying "But women don't find it a turn on!"... how is that relevant to the point I was trying to make? It doesn't even make sense in response to what I initially said... What I was asking was why do so many men see women kissing as something hot that they are all drawn to, whereas women see men kissing as something neutral (you've already kind of explained that so don't bother responding to this bit; I just wanted to explain myself).

I'm a bit tired at this point so I don't feel like going back through the old post. I didn't just keep responding with "But women don't find it a turn on!"

you felt the need to repeat it as if we hadn't already established that.

Shidoshi wrote:

 

Either way you look at it, they simply aren't into it.

 

 

That's what I've already said and it's part of my point. Women see couples of all sexualities/genders in a neutral way,

No they don't, YOU do because you think gay/lesbian/bi people are perfectly normal. People just have little personality "quirks." I wish it were that simple.

whereas men discriminate between them and sexualise a particular pair.

Only men do this huh? Wow.....

Shidoshi wrote:

 

Yes, because men and women aren't attracted to each other for the "same" reasons (of course we have "similarites").

 

 

That is not true for the entire population. I have met men who look for the same things as many women do (unless they're into physical appearance more).

Like what exactly? What guy wants a "masculine" woman? If you ask a group of women what they find attractive in a guy I gaurantee you anything "feminine" would not be on the list. I said we have "similarites" but I don't want a woman who behaves like a man, let alone looks like one. You know, I don't mean this as an insult at all, but there's a clear difference between someone who is "open-minded" and someone who is just "naive."

Shidoshi wrote:

 

I never said kissing was "always" a sexual act. You're throwing in "specific" situations with regard to the lesbian couple having some romantic activity. Any attractive women who are kissing in public are going to draw attention, it doesn't matter whether they consider it sexual/nonsexual. What guy sees this and thinks to himself "yeah, they're doing it just for me"?

 

 

Well, when you said

 

Quote:

It turns men on because it's a sexual act

 

 

I assumed you meant it's always a sexual act. You don't usually state "it is a sexual act" if it isn't always that way. You wouldn't say "cats have black fur" when they don't always have black fur. So, it was just another misunderstanding.

You applied what I said to a specific circumstance (lesbian couple having a private intimate moment), so you turned it into something I never meant it to be. I didn't think I needed to explain it in such simple terms, as in your cat/fur analogy.

And believe me, there are plenty of strange men out there who would feel that way about it.

I don't doubt that at all, women too.

There are some who seem to think any attractive woman is just there for them to drool over, whistle at and grope and strangely enough most of this behaviour (except maybe the groping) is seen as normal behaviour in society. In fact some women tell their daughters that they're meant to be proud about builders whistling at them even though the daughter doesn't want the attention!

How do you think a lot of women get that kind of response in the first place? Are you not aware of how a lot of women dress these days? Most of the time they only get upset when they get attention from guys their not attracted to. If Brad Pitt was whistling at them they'd probably melt. When is the last time you've seen a conservatively dressed woman drooled over and whistled at? I'm not condoning it, but it isn't as one sided as you make it seem.

I understand that it would draw attention, but that doesn't mean it is okay to stop and stare at them.

I don't know exactly what you're getting at, did I say doing this was ok?

Shidoshi wrote:

 

Who said anything about "bothering" them? If I "hear" things you're saying then it isn't really private is it? Why on earth would I say it's alright to physically move yourself into the personal space of strangers and intrude on them?

 

 

I never said it was private, but it would still be their conversation and they wouldn't want any stranger butting in. I'm using this as an analogy to a bunch of guys stopping to stare at a couple of women. I find being stared at to be just as invasive and uncomfortable as a complete stranger sitting down at the same table as me and it would feel even more invasive if I was kissing someone.

I still don't understand why you bring this up. I never argued this, all these situations you're describing are "implied" by you.

Shidoshi wrote:

 

Why is it wrong to find someones opinion to be amusing, especially in this context? We're not exactly talking about rape are we? You're taking it far too personally. I didn't say I found your opinions to be "hilarious" did I? I think "condescending" is a pretty overboard statement. We're simply having a debate, why not just leave it at that.

 

 

True, but it wasn't meant to be a comment to make people laugh. I just stated that I don't like your attitude towards my views and it's disrespectful.

You are reading waaaaaayyy to deep into my simple "lol."

If you find something funny about someone's beliefs and opinions just keep it to yourself. I don't believe in Christianity, but I don't go laugh at the Christians on this board when they advise others to "look to God for the answer".

I think given what we've been discussing, you're taking yourself way to seriously. Your above example is pretty extreme and is quite unrelated.

And how are amusing and hilarious any different from each other?

They're as different as say "lol" and "ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!"

They both mean funny and entertaining. If I'm trying to have a debate with someone and they say "your opinions are amusing" I don't think describing the comment as "condescending" is going overboard.

That's the problem with communicating through text, you're bound to misinterpret things. I'm a laid back guy, the "lol" was a chuckle I guess you could say, but it wasn't meant as "wth is she talking about, she must be on crack!!!" Take it with a grain of salt.

Shidoshi wrote:

 

You keep bringing up harassment and so forth and that isn't what I'm talking about at all.

 

 

But that is how guys would react to women kissing if they like seeing that kind of thing, wouldn't they? Stare at them for as long as they could.

No. Maybe some guys out there, but it depends on how and where it's being done.

Shidoshi wrote:

 

Actually I saw a wink, and I think there's a lot of "truth" in humor. I mean it isn't really a big deal, he just posted that sensitive stuff to keep you from going to bed crying at my horrible, inhuman comments........

I never personally attacked you about anything, we're having a friendly argument. I'm talking to you the same way I would talk to any guy on the board, the women on these forums seem to take things so personally (I know why but that would be another debate in itself probably). Don't hold back any comments even if you feel I would be offended, I invite it. It gives "life" to the argument.

 

 

Yes, posting just because you want to make someone smile isn't a big deal, but having to imagine you made a girl cry to feel manly is.

I was being sarcastic. I would hope you didn't cry over what I said. Shy felt the need to console you all the while disguising his post as playful and innocent. Now THAT I did laugh at, because it was so obvious why he posted again, knowing we already got his opinion on the issue.

It doesn't matter whether you intended for it to be personal or not, I think anyone would be appalled at having their comments laughed at when they're trying to have a debate unless it's about something that is meant to be humorous.

I didn't feel like it was an attack either; I never actually said that, you just assumed it based upon "all" the women in this forum (sweeping generalisation?).

No, I based it upon your overreaction. It's pretty much common knowledge that women are more emotional then men.

Do you understand why I was annoyed, now? If not, I give up.

I understood from your first response, and I still say you take yourself too seriously. I think it boils down to age and maturity. I probably shouldn't have tried to debate with someone your age anyway as I've been there and when your young you tend to think you understand the world but you have a long way to go. You feel the need to explain elementary concepts to me as if I somehow don't understand you, I'm telling you I do, but it's hard to stay on topic because you wander off in trying to pick apart my argument. That, and I'm not an English major so my thoughts aren't always as articulate as I would like. Not to take away from your thoughts and opinions, they're as valid as my own.

[Shidoshi]

Ah, Shidoshi. You once admitted to me that you try to push my buttons and get under my skin. Well it doesn't work.

lol, did I?

I enjoy your posts to me, there pretty funny.

Likewise.

The thing with you is that your debating for the sake of debating and seeing how someone will react. It isn't really about the issue with you.

The funny thing about this statement is that you wouldn't be saying it if I agreed with you.

Lets see what comments of yours I can find the obvious holes in. And don't worry, me doing this can only make you a stronger debater.

Well, in your case, not really because you argue with too much emotion. I can't argue against good logic though. That's always a humbling experience.

No joke. It's been shown that women mature faster then men. And I've always got along better with women because of that maturity factor. I've said it plenty of times in the past, so why so surprised? And I'm not a feminist, i just call it like I see it.

We aren't in highschool going through puberty, there's a point when that really doesn't apply any more. You've always gotten along better with women because you behave more like them. You "supplicate" to them.

Quote:

You didn't say those words, but it's kind of implied in your comments.

 

 

Can't take a joke? Lighten up man. Its a good quality to be able to laugh at yourself. And for the record, everyone has the same potential, no one is an idiot. Its just that some choose to act foolishly.

I realize you said it as a joke, but I'm also aware of what you're implying, and I now know why you feel that way. I wasn't offended by it at all, rather I was just a little surprised because I didn't realize how far gone you are. You seem to uphold the same princples that are indicative of feminists.

Quote:

I, unlike you, am not looking for a "favorable response from a female." I'm debating with a "person."

 

 

 

I said that wasn't my goal either, read more closely.

You start off with the compliments, then later you say:

But we, and most girls, think with our brains, our big heads. Most guys, think with there smaller head. What can you do... most men are idiots.

Your intentions couldn't be more transparent. We already knew what your opinions were from previous posts.

I'm just aware that the responses a do get tend to be favorable.

Hmmm.....I wonder why.

Those who happen to be female tend to end up as the better debates.

Of course they do....

Quote:

lol, come on Shy, who are you trying to fool. Your intentions are quite obvious and laughable now that your denying your true reasons for posting.

 

 

My intentions are the same as they always are on here, to help someone. Sometimes that means just saying a kind word and making a person smile. I deny nothing. I said I tend to agree with Sheyda, I said I wanted to make her smile. What exactly am I denying?

You know what, your right. There is a little more to it but I don't feel it necessary to go any further with this.

Quote:

You argued with me in the same fashion that I argued with you. I didn't approach it any differently.

 

 

 

The way I debate is too get through to the person. It's taking what the other says that makes no sense and showing why.

That's what we all would like to think, whether it works out that way is another story.

I can't help it if its just easier to do that with you or if the women make better points and challenge me more.

lol, here we go again with "women" challenging you more, the so called "better debaters." I used to think we just disagreed on a lot of things but your comments about women being more rational and reasonable tells me you are seriously lacking in common sense.

Point I was making is when dealing with women, actually everyone but particularly women, is to understand where they are coming from. That way you better relate to what they are saying and there is a greater chance at reaching a consensus

I have no problem understanding where they're coming from. Sometimes, well, often times you won't reach a "consensus" because you disagree fundamentally.

Quote:

I wasn't looking to exchange beauty tips here. I'm well aware of how I come off to people (including women).

 

 

Hope that was a joke. First you stereotype women as wanting to discuss beauty tips and then you say your ok with coming off like this too people and women in particular? Yep, worrying...

The comment was directed at YOU with regard to getting a "A favorable response from a female." I don't feel the need to weasel my way into the good graces of women by complimenting and sucking up to them as you've displayed numerous times.

Quote:

For your sake, I hope....no, PRAY it happens soon. God knows you need that more than anything else right now.

 

 

I need a kiss? Nope I need love. But don't worry, I get the kiss and I'll get it because I understand women. You might want to learn.

I certainly hope you get more than a kiss, seems you've waited long enough. Me? Learn about women from you? I'll be looking out the window for flying pigs.

[Jinx]

Concerning the question in the original post, my opinion would be as follows:

 

If you're kissing on a love basis, no matter if its female/female, male/male, female/male. Its all good. I have no problem with any of that as long as it is reasonable (And assuming the fashion of kissing you're speaking of; between consenting individuals within a similar and legal age range).

 

Now I tell you what I don't like. Women who do it for show. For that anyone that does it for strictly show. As far as I'm concerned, if there is no feeling, some lips colliding and wha la a couple of randy men bouncing around yelling Do it again! there is absolutely no logical point in it. It has always disturbed me. If you want something to show in a bar, make quick work with a cherry stem.

 

Kissing or any other sign of affection shouldn't be taken for granted. I can't honestly see the pride in anyone saying - I kissed someone over the weekend from my own gender which I had absolutely no attraction to just to get some attention by men or women who think its a turn on.

 

Personally, I think it would and should be kept - I kissed my partner (of whichever gender) whom I dearly love over the weekend and didn't care whether anyone seen or cared about us doing so.

[ShySoul]

Oh yes, plenty of things:

 

modest

kind

considerate of others

selfless

faithful

understanding

funny/sense of humour

intelligent

polite

respectful

outgoing

ambitious

And so on...

 

Sidoshi, we can continue this in pms since its not really about the subject. But I want you to look at that list. You talk about about me worming my way into a girls heart or trying to win their approval. That is the furthest thing from my mind. The reason I give compliments and are nice is because I realize thats the right thing to do. The reason I get along with women is because I understand them, I take the time to listen to what they say and find common ground. Guys like you don't and assume that they know women better then the women do. This just gets them mad at you.

 

Look at that list of qualities. These are the things that women like, and the things that men like when you get down to it. These are gender neutral, and they are what matters most. The comments I make aren't intended to get a girl to be impressed with me, they are simple being kind, polite, respectful, and showing a sense of humor. You'd be wise to learn how to do the same.

 

As for Sheyda, after dealing with you I can imagine the headache she must be feeling right now. Oy voy, she has the patience of a saint.

[Desired1]

I didn't read all of the replies, but to me....I wouldn' do it. Im just not into that. I think that at times straight girls do do it for attention but at times they may just be curious.

 

I have heard a lot of guyz say that girls kissing girls is nasty. I have also heard that girls kissing girls is hot.

 

But it just doesn't make sense to me. If a girl is kissing a girl, then isnt that one less girl for a guy to have?(assuming that shes lez).

 

I don't really think to much of girls kissing girls. If thats something that they want to do, who am i to tell them that they can't.

IDK, maybe thats just my weird thinking.