Dr. Lady check in…

[Whirling D]

Just now, MrMan1983 said:

I would remove the end of that, if she wants an out she'll say she can't make it for whatever reason. Confidence is attractive, so best to confidently try and set the date.

So, just to debate you a bit… Wouldn’t bringing flowers from my garden show a little bit of confidence… 🙂

I think you are right, and that I should not bring flowers, but how could bringing her flowers backfire? Make her feel pressured into moving toward something she may not be ready to articulate?  
 

part of me wonders if she might think… “What a nice gesture, and it didn’t feel like he was trying to con me with anything… He was just bringing me some thing that I thought I might like and enjoy“ and that’s really the main goal, with a little bit of romance thrown in there.

 

[bluecastle]

3 minutes ago, MrMan1983 said:

I would remove the end of that, if she wants an out she'll say she can't make it for whatever reason. Confidence is attractive, so best to confidently try and set the date.

100 percent. 

Respect that she can let you know if anything has changed rather than trying to control things you can’t. 

Flowers? If you weren’t debating it all here, and just did it, I’d say that’s fine. But as you’re already gaming every avenue of what the flowers could or could not symbolize I would chalk them up as an extension of anxiety and save them for a moment when you’re more relaxed. 

[Batya33]

40 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

well, you’ve heard me say over and over again, how many times… That I think I am marginalized by the way I look.  Long hair, short hair, good job, not so good job… hasn’t mattered one iota.

 I think I am marginalized because I don’t look like everyone else, and even my therapist says that there is a whole study of people who are physically marginalized because they don’t fit into the stereotype. From what I understand, that’s a fairly predominant western feature, and not so much eastern cultures or aboriginal. 

Studies shmuddies.  I know of many many quirky people -I am one -not to the hugest extent but I sure love hanging with people who are -I married one!! - who do just fine and don't feel marginalized in the least.  I elevate individuals -especially those who choose to beat to their own drum - obviously they benefit from it and the downsides are worth it if any - over studies.

For example I routinely get weird comments because I use my son's old stroller as a shopping cart - comments about how I lost my baby, one time a man stepped in front of it as I was pushing it fast and  tried to sit in it (I almost fell -I was wearing my earbuds listening to the news), another woman cackled at me at the supermarket watching me try to load it up for my walk home. I get comments on my height, my husband gets comments on his height as does my son (and height for sure I can't change nor do I wish to wear high heels anymore), and I've had judgments over my atypical choice not to drive for now, and at certain points my choice at particular events not to drink alcohol.  I mean obviously people judge, some nasty types will try to "marginalize." 

There are people who are marginalized at one or more points in their lives -I don't doubt it -the Jews were during the Holocaust time, I think Armenians were in history (truly sorry I don't remember the exact event), Japanese here in the US during WW II and for a very long time I think many people with mental illness were marginalized -likely they still are I just think -hope?? -there is more acceptance now and less marginalization. I sure hope so!.  

Please don't use those studies as an excuse for a pity party.  You like having long hair, you like what you've chosen to do for work and  the limitations you've chosen on what sort of work/how often, you like how your house is.  You benefit from your atypical choices and they are choices.  I don't judge your choices in the least but please don't go there with marginalized when so many are marginalized for circumstances out of their control.

[Batya33]

27 minutes ago, bluecastle said:

100 percent. 

Respect that she can let you know if anything has changed rather than trying to control things you can’t. 

Flowers? If you weren’t debating it all here, and just did it, I’d say that’s fine. But as you’re already gaming every avenue of what the flowers could or could not symbolize I would chalk them up as an extension of anxiety and save them for a moment when you’re more relaxed. 

Very good point -also again do you expect her to tote them around?

I had a second date once and I brought him half a dozen fresh baked from scratch chocolate chip cookies (mine!) -he asked me why not a dozen and I told him I just wasn't that easy.  I brought my future husband cookies on our second platonic outing - and told him to please share with his parents as he was seeing them the next day and as mentioned I knew them from our first time around.  Also I was already feeling sparks so I used it as an excuse to make contact -did his parents like them?? Well no they did not as he decided they were too good to share with them.  

I had a guy buy me flowers from a bodega during our first meet as we walked from dinner to his train station.  It was REALLY sweet. I realized later he did that as part of his um seduction game.  But yes -so romantic and I carried them home and put them in water.

[Whirling D]

41 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Studies shmuddies.  I know of many many quirky people -I am one -not to the hugest extent but I sure love hanging with people who are -I married one!! - who do just fine and don't feel marginalized in the least.  I elevate individuals -especially those who choose to beat to their own drum - obviously they benefit from it and the downsides are worth it if any - over studies.

For example I routinely get weird comments because I use my son's old stroller as a shopping cart - comments about how I lost my baby, one time a man stepped in front of it as I was pushing it fast and  tried to sit in it (I almost fell -I was wearing my earbuds listening to the news), another woman cackled at me at the supermarket watching me try to load it up for my walk home. I get comments on my height, my husband gets comments on his height as does my son (and height for sure I can't change nor do I wish to wear high heels anymore), and I've had judgments over my atypical choice not to drive for now, and at certain points my choice at particular events not to drink alcohol.  I mean obviously people judge, some nasty types will try to "marginalize." 

There are people who are marginalized at one or more points in their lives -I don't doubt it -the Jews were during the Holocaust time, I think Armenians were in history (truly sorry I don't remember the exact event), Japanese here in the US during WW II and for a very long time I think many people with mental illness were marginalized -likely they still are I just think -hope?? -there is more acceptance now and less marginalization. I sure hope so!.  

Please don't use those studies as an excuse for a pity party.  You like having long hair, you like what you've chosen to do for work and  the limitations you've chosen on what sort of work/how often, you like how your house is.  You benefit from your atypical choices and they are choices.  I don't judge your choices in the least but please don't go there with marginalized when so many are marginalized for circumstances out of their control.

My therapist completely got it… And was the one who used the term marginalized. 

if I were to use that term, and I absolutely do, (I have no doubt that I fall into a marginalized category), it would have nothing to do with my choices… I chose to have both long and short hair. Made zero difference with dating. I chose to have an excellent career, and I also worked as a laborer. Made zero difference with how I was treated by people or how I dated.  I was bullied because of how I looked. I don’t get responses on dating sites because of how I look. I think it’s obviously clear.  Maybe it’s because I have a feminine voice and speak softly and gently? Yeah, I have a lot of choice with that.

 

[Whirling D]

43 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Very good point -also again do you expect her to tote them around?

I had a second date once and I brought him half a dozen fresh baked from scratch chocolate chip cookies (mine!) -he asked me why not a dozen and I told him I just wasn't that easy.  I brought my future husband cookies on our second platonic outing - and told him to please share with his parents as he was seeing them the next day and as mentioned I knew them from our first time around.  Also I was already feeling sparks so I used it as an excuse to make contact -did his parents like them?? Well no they did not as he decided they were too good to share with them.  

I had a guy buy me flowers from a bodega during our first meet as we walked from dinner to his train station.  It was REALLY sweet. I realized later he did that as part of his um seduction game.  But yes -so romantic and I carried them home and put them in water.

So, you are basically saying you have done the exact same thing, and it was just because you felt like doing something nice for somebody that you liked… And not solely to impress them?

[Batya33]

57 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

So, you are basically saying you have done the exact same thing, and it was just because you felt like doing something nice for somebody that you liked… And not solely to impress them?

No I am not. I had an issue with the flowers because of logistics mostly and she might feel like you're trying to get her to invite you in so she can put them in water (a man did that to me on a second date -brought me ice cream cake.  He parked in my apartment building and I had no intention of inviting him up.  But then I had to put it in the freezer (had him wait outside) and then I felt really weird not inviting him in for cake after our date. I did not want to as I did not want to see him again. Then the cake of course has to defrost etc.  We'd talked about our mutual enjoyment of ice cream cake in one convo.  

When I gave my dates the cookies of course it was to impress them!  Just like many men planned fun dates in part to impress me. Nothing wrong with it.  It's called dating.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

My therapist completely got it… And was the one who used the term marginalized. 

if I were to use that term, and I absolutely do, (I have no doubt that I fall into a marginalized category), it would have nothing to do with my choices… I chose to have both long and short hair. Made zero difference with dating. I chose to have an excellent career, and I also worked as a laborer. Made zero difference with how I was treated by people or how I dated.  I was bullied because of how I looked. I don’t get responses on dating sites because of how I look. I think it’s obviously clear.  Maybe it’s because I have a feminine voice and speak softly and gently? Yeah, I have a lot of choice with that.

 

I'm sorry you were bullied.  I was as well.  Because of how I looked.  

I was turned off from dating men who had feminine or nasal voices.  But I was friendly with them and of course never bullied or anything like that.  You can work on voice tone if you choose to -I know people who have.  It's up to you.  I know of women who have no issue with a feminine voice and I'm sure some women love it.  Because women are individuals.  Like men.  I also was turned off by really bad grammar or inappropriate language and -no I wouldn't have dated a man who referred to me as a girl other than as a joke once we knew each other well.  Other women aren't bothered by that, other women may love being referred to as a girl.  

 

[TheCrow]

5 hours ago, Whirling D said:

Do you really feel like me picking some flowers from my property, and giving them to her in a non-gushy kind of way, would really not be a sweet thing?  I wouldn’t be presenting them as if I was trying to be romantic, and there is some part of that, but that’s kind of just who I want to be in the world… If I have nice flowers on my property, why wouldn’t I want to pick some and bring them to her, just as a gesture of caring for who she is, let alone a romantic gesture. 

definite no?

If I'm really into you -sweet and beautiful gesture. If I'm on the fence - hm, slight cringe factor. If I'm about to lose you in favour of someone else - ugh, gawd.

Also re your looks: try to maybe wear a bandana? I think I saw your picture in a previous thread. This from a life-long lover of long haired dudes so..trust me on this. 

 

[Whirling D]

29 minutes ago, TheCrow said:

If I'm really into you -sweet and beautiful gesture. If I'm on the fence - hm, slight cringe factor. If I'm about to lose you in favour of someone else - ugh, gawd.

Also re your looks: try to maybe wear a bandana? I think I saw your picture in a previous thread. This from a life-long lover of long haired dudes so..trust me on this. 

 

Love your breakdown of the flower idea… Thank you!

i’m leaning away from it, for almost the exact reasons you described, but I wish I wasn’t. I’ve done that kind of thing before with ladies that I was just starting to date, but that’s not the case here. I love flowers, and it’s the perfect season for them, and I would just love to be able to share that with someone, in this case her. But again, first dates are about impressions, and I have no idea what that impression might be.

My therapist would say… Go for it… You be you and trust your gut. I don’t know if I’m quite that ambitious quite yet… 🙂

yBandanna? One of my favorite guitar players did a video about a year ago in which he was wearing a bandanna. I thought it was quite fun, and thought I might try it for a gig someday.

Would you really want to have a guy to show up at a date, or second meeting, or whatever you wanna call this, wearing a bandanna?  

Also, what do you think the average person would see in a person, or a long-haired guy, wearing a bandanna? My first impression would be… Rockin roller… Or maybe post era hippie? I don’t really fit neatly into any particular category, so I wouldn’t want to give an inaccurate impression. I’m kind of a geeky dude who just happens to be a lifelong rock ‘n’ roller, and who really likes long hair… 🙂

[Batya33]

I wouldn't love the bandana but it's individual preference.  And if you don't plan on wearing it regularly it's kind of an odd choice IMO.  Your "gut" shouldn't be confused with reacting to anxiety.

[Whirling D]

Just now, Batya33 said:

I wouldn't love the bandana but it's individual preference.  And if you don't plan on wearing it regularly it's kind of an odd choice IMO.  Your "gut" shouldn't be confused with reacting to anxiety.

Well, the flowers idea I don’t think had anything to do with anxiety. That’s just who I want to be in the world.

So, there’s part of me thinks that to ignore the anxiety might mean considering bringing flowers. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

But then there’s the practical side… Regarding the negatives that could possibly come out of it. I should be more confident than that, and sometimes I am. But probably not for a second meeting/first date scenario. Might seem to be cheesy.

 

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Well, the flowers idea I don’t think had anything to do with anxiety. That’s just who I want to be in the world.

So, there’s part of me thinks that to ignore the anxiety might mean considering bringing flowers. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

But then there’s the practical side… Regarding the negatives that could possibly come out of it. I should be more confident than that, and sometimes I am. But probably not for a second meeting/first date scenario. Might seem to be cheesy.

 

I had mentioned the practicalities of where she is supposed to store the flowers while you are out and about? I am not sure what "who I want to be in the world" has to do with whether to bring flowers on a first date -but you seem to LOL!

[TheCrow]

21 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Love your breakdown of the flower idea… Thank you!

i’m leaning away from it, for almost the exact reasons you described, but I wish I wasn’t. I’ve done that kind of thing before with ladies that I was just starting to date, but that’s not the case here. I love flowers, and it’s the perfect season for them, and I would just love to be able to share that with someone, in this case her. But again, first dates are about impressions, and I have no idea what that impression might be.

My therapist would say… Go for it… You be you and trust your gut. I don’t know if I’m quite that ambitious quite yet… 🙂

yBandanna? One of my favorite guitar players did a video about a year ago in which he was wearing a bandanna. I thought it was quite fun, and thought I might try it for a gig someday.

Would you really want to have a guy to show up at a date, or second meeting, or whatever you wanna call this, wearing a bandanna?  

Also, what do you think the average person would see in a person, or a long-haired guy, wearing a bandanna? My first impression would be… Rockin roller… Or maybe post era hippie? I don’t really fit neatly into any particular category, so I wouldn’t want to give an inaccurate impression. I’m kind of a geeky dude who just happens to be a lifelong rock ‘n’ roller, and who really likes long hair… 🙂

Sorry dude. .I'm biased. I love long hair, bandanas and (not too) old rock'n rollers.. the 'straights' of this world can go dry clean their expensive suits then go chop off their last remaining inch of hair!

[Batya33]

I wanted to add. I don’t think flowers especially fresh flowers from your garden are cheesy at all.  Or too much/over the top. It’s sweet and thoughtful and with all going on in the world I love kind of old fashioned touches of beauty and sweetness.  

[Whirling D]

37 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I wanted to add. I don’t think flowers especially fresh flowers from your garden are cheesy at all.  Or too much/over the top. It’s sweet and thoughtful and with all going on in the world I love kind of old fashioned touches of beauty and sweetness.  

Thank you. My gut tells me I would enjoy giving them to her, but my confused head remains unconvinced.

I wonder about the prudence of coming to a first real date empty-handed.  Almost feels culturally traditional to at least come with something.

[Batya33]

9 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Thank you. My gut tells me I would enjoy giving them to her, but my confused head remains unconvinced.

I wonder about the prudence of coming to a first real date empty-handed.  Almost feels culturally traditional to at least come with something.

I disagree unless the date was at her home or the home of her friends for dinner. 

[Wiseman2]

5 hours ago, Whirling D said:

. My gut tells me I would enjoy giving them to her..

The first step is to contact her and plan the date. To be honest, flowers aren't going to make any difference.

However stalling and not touching base with her,  telling her you're happy to drive there, would enjoy doing whatever she suggests could make a difference positively or negatively.

Try to make decisions in your favor. Deliberating and debating for days about picking flowers isn't what's going to make a date happen. Contacting her is.

The point is to try to create a relationship with her, not your thoughts about her.

[Jaunty]

15 hours ago, Whirling D said:

Do you really feel like me picking some flowers from my property, and giving them to her in a non-gushy kind of way, would really not be a sweet thing?  I wouldn’t be presenting them as if I was trying to be romantic

Well, she is  likely to take it as romantic, and if you do it, you will be pushing her if she's on the fence about you at all.

Better to hold off and just see how the two of you click before making a gesture that may put her in a position to make a decision about whether you are "boyfriend material" for her or not.

Maybe on the 3rd or 4th date.  At that point it's all for the best for both of you to know whether you're on the same page.  Right now she is just a nice woman you're interested in.  Give her a chance to know you before giving her pause.

Edited to add:  Okay - at this point it would be madness to bring the flowers, because now you've subjected what may have been a simple gesture to the intense scrutiny of a NATO summit on Ukraine.  

Anything this fraught is not going to be a good idea.  ANYTHING.

 

[Whirling D]

Thank you all for your thoughts… I appreciate everything.

I think flowers are out… Wish they weren’t, but I think that’s the best for now.

Mornings are hardest. I’ve had my kid for the last couple of nights, and I drop her off at school in the morning, and after I drop her off, there is like dead air for a while.  
 

I love being at home, but being there every morning, morning after morning, with not much to look forward to that involves moving forward with partnering makes being at home by myself feel very dark sometimes.  And that darkness can be consuming in situations like this when I have been exposed to something that could be very nice, but have no idea where it’s going. It’s extremely unnerving and unsettling, And that darkness can be consuming, Particularly with my kind of dating history and likelihood of being alone.

I would probably go out most mornings for a pastry or a beverage, but that gets quite pricey for my budget. But I’m on my way to have a pastry now, just because I don’t like the monotony of going home every morning and just doing housework and yardwork, although I feel like I’m getting behind on all of that.

I also went out on a very brisk walk yesterday with my neighbor, and I still feel the same this morning… I have been taking care of myself much better for the last four days, and I still feel anxious, so I might as well just drink coffee and goof off, because it doesn’t seem to make a significant difference.  
 

 I know there is more to do, and I don’t wanna make it sound like I’m sitting around all day doing nothing but thinking about this lady. That’s not true, at all, but it Is definitely putting a dent in getting things done and feeling focused towards other things that I enjoy. That’s problematic, and has been in every single situation like this I encounter.

I suspect I will call her tonight, but each day brings me closer to feeling that it is futile to even think that this lady would have any room in her life for me. When my mind starts to reel, and I gather all of the information I have, it seems like things are fading. True, I can’t possibly know, but let’s look at the reality… I don’t attract women like this ever. We haven’t corresponded since Saturday, after not going any more than two or three days without some sort of contact.

And then I think about strategy… Which I’ve taken a little heat on here for thinking about… Like it’s a game that needs to be played. I don’t mean it to sound like that, but I have to think about what signals I’m going to be sending out to this lady, and what signals I’m getting back, and how to maximize the likelihood I’m not gonna push this lady away and make her feel uncomfortable. That is indeed strategy, and it’s common in dating.

Today is her day off. I could send her a simple text to say hi and tell her I’ll call her there tonight or tomorrow, or maybe ask her which is better, to discuss weekend plans.  But then again, some strategists would probably say that I have made it clear to this lady of my interest, and it’s kind of up to her to reciprocate at this point. Perhaps I don’t want to seem too eager and make her wonder little bit? I hear mystery is a good thing with dating.

yes, I know I have to put 1 foot forward in front of the other and keep trying, yes I am likely going to call her tonight unless I feel like crap, at which point I will definitely call her tomorrow, and yes I will do what I need to to see where this goes.

Doesn’t mean I feel a lot of hope.  History more often than not repeats itself.

[Batya33]

I would limit all contact to confirming the plan if confirming is needed.  Get to know her in person.  What sort of activities can you do including volunteer work with the "dead air?" 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

 some strategists would probably say that I have made it clear to this lady of my interest, and it’s kind of up to her to reciprocate at this point. Perhaps I don’t want to seem too eager and make her wonder little bit? I hear mystery is a good thing with dating.

Just use your common sense and contact her to firm up plans. Please try not to apply pick up artist rhetoric to this. Playing hard to get is kind of silly if you're at the point of planning a second date.

[MissCanuck]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

some strategists would probably say that I have made it clear to this lady of my interest, and it’s kind of up to her to reciprocate at this point.

I think strategists would probably tell you that you are taking all of this way too seriously. 

Are you this uncomfortable with other relationships in your life? Colleagues? Friends? 

[Whirling D]

32 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Just use your common sense and contact her to firm up plans. Please try not to apply pick up artist rhetoric to this. Playing hard to get is kind of silly if you're at the point of planning a second date.

Well, I’m trying not to think of it as playing hard to get, so to speak, I just don’t want to freak the lady out and push her in a direction that could be detrimental.

if it was up to me, and I’m taking many of your leads, I would’ve texted her Sunday night and asked her how her weekend went. Or Monday morning to offer her a good week.

So as many of you are saying, I’m trying to let this go and develop organically… But we were in contact every couple of days up through Saturday, and now it’s been radio silence. That’s a little troubling, considering that she was also participating in keeping in touch.  
 

she texted me out of the blue last week to say hi. How great is that? Why that hasn’t happened a second time makes me wonder if something is up. Another guy. Some thing I said or did wasn’t settling well. Couldn’t tell you.  Maybe it’s nothing. Couldn’t tell you.

[Whirling D]

49 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I would limit all contact to confirming the plan if confirming is needed.  Get to know her in person.  What sort of activities can you do including volunteer work with the "dead air?" 

I just have so much to do here that it feels often overwhelming. I’m way behind on yardwork now, and my house always needs something done. It feels like my priority should be to get all of this stuff done, and I do get busy a lot of the time, but other times, like today and yesterday, I can’t do anything because my head is spinning.