Dr. Lady check in…

[catfeeder]

Hello Whirl! Glad you had such a nice convo with this woman, and I'm sooo rooting for you!

I can appreciate your therapist's concerns about getting knocked around on a forum where it's typical for people to project their own rigidity or negativity. 

I hope your therapist informed you that dating anxiety is NATURAL. Meeting someone new puts everyone in a space of unknowing, and every step forward carries a risk of getting knocked back. That is true for ALL people, and I don't personally know ANYbody who can roll with that without a care.

I heard one radio psychologist refer to dating as "the Mount Everest of social interaction..." and so it's not just an introvert who would find this a truly an anxiety-provoking experience.

I say this to suggest that your anxiety doesn't make you some freak with insurmountable difficulties, but rather, you're experiencing the same universal feelings that turn everyone into a puddle, at least to some degree.

You deserve to find your right person. Nobody here can predict whether this nice lady is her or not, but I honestly don't believe that any given move, such as texting a dog pic, will make or break that outcome.

If this connection is fragile, it won't matter what you say or do or not. If it's got legs, then you won't need to walk on eggshells. The earlier you learn either, the better.

Head high and enJOY!

PS: I agree that @spinstermanquee is NOT a 'nobody' on here. She's remarkably insightful, and I appreciate her more than I can say.

[Wiseman2]

17 hours ago, Whirling D said:

That’s exactly what my future fantasy would look like, in effect, wise.   I’d be happy to take on that kind of partnership.  

That's all part of dating and someone coming into your life. You'll have to be as open and accepting of her lifestyle as you want her to be of yours.

For example you may have to go shopping in cities and go places she likes. Hoping she completely adopts a bohemian lifestyle isn't any more realistic than you becoming a city slicker. Try to appreciate the differences as long as you enjoy it.

[Whirling D]

7 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

That's all part of dating and someone coming into your life. You'll have to be as open and accepting of her lifestyle as you want her to be of yours.

For example you may have to go shopping in cities and go places she likes. Hoping she completely adopts a bohemian lifestyle isn't any more realistic than you becoming a city slicker. Try to appreciate the differences as long as you enjoy it.

Yes, wise. I don’t mind that kind of transition. If we have similar values, which I think we might, the rest is all a matter of negotiation and tolerance.

[Whirling D]

11 hours ago, catfeeder said:

Hello Whirl! Glad you had such a nice convo with this woman, and I'm sooo rooting for you!

I can appreciate your therapist's concerns about getting knocked around on a forum where it's typical for people to project their own rigidity or negativity. 

I hope your therapist informed you that dating anxiety is NATURAL. Meeting someone new puts everyone in a space of unknowing, and every step forward carries a risk of getting knocked back. That is true for ALL people, and I don't personally know ANYbody who can roll with that without a care.

I heard one radio psychologist refer to dating as "the Mount Everest of social interaction..." and so it's not just an introvert who would find this a truly an anxiety-provoking experience.

I say this to suggest that your anxiety doesn't make you some freak with insurmountable difficulties, but rather, you're experiencing the same universal feelings that turn everyone into a puddle, at least to some degree.

You deserve to find your right person. Nobody here can predict whether this nice lady is her or not, but I honestly don't believe that any given move, such as texting a dog pic, will make or break that outcome.

If this connection is fragile, it won't matter what you say or do or not. If it's got legs, then you won't need to walk on eggshells. The earlier you learn either, the better.

Head high and enJOY!

PS: I agree that @spinstermanquee is NOT a 'nobody' on here. She's remarkably insightful, and I appreciate her more than I can say.

Thank you, cat… Your words are considerably more meaningful than you probably know. Such a thoughtful post, thank you.

[Whirling D]

A little trajectory for context:

before a week and a little ago, I was doing considerably OK. It took me a few months of feeling pathetic and lonely, and trauma triggered, to get past what I was feeling with the last girl that I was dating, even though I knew her and I were not the best fit. She was lovely and decent, but it was still really hurtful. 

after about a couple of months, I began to stabilize, and although in the moment it’s hard to sometimes believe that one will become stable, I kind of hoped that would happen, and it did.

I stopped feeling anxious all the time, and feeling depressive, and things started to feel much better. I started volunteering like I had been before, which hadn’t happened since Covid stopped the event, and started moving forward in most other ways. I was able to ask the girl at the tavern for her phone number that night… I played music in the musical and was around a lot of positive people. My confidence was feeling pretty decent, overall.

and then I met the doctor lady, and it’s been like everything is out the window. Hugely anxious. Low level depression. Lack of confidence. Meeting her has exacerbated all these triggers of abandonment, and for good reason.

I wake up this morning feeling incredibly alone, knowing that I can’t fill every moment with distraction, and I have to be able to be by myself and not feel hugely defective.

A very well put together social worker put up videos about attachment disorders, and she’s brilliant. She says, in less effective words than she uses, that I have to learn to tolerate that kind of anxiety and depression that I feel right now, and understand that just because I feel something, doesn’t mean I’m going to act on it or that it’s going to hurt me moving forward. That is certainly one component.

she likened it to her own eating disorder that she said she struggled with… She said she had to learn to be OK with the feeling of being hungry for a short while, and that the feeling of hungry does not necessarily mean that one has to go eat something. She said after a while, your brain becomes re-programmed to understand that feeling hungry once in a while is OK, and doesn’t need to be acted upon.

I guess the take away is that I have to get better at knowing that my anxiety and depression don’t necessarily mean that bad things are going to happen. But I can’t shake it. I have this terrible feeling of doom that I am once again going to feel abandoned. I already feel it. I feel abandoned already, just by looking at the probability that this lady will never respond the way that I hope she will. It is statistically very unlikely, I think. 

I have been way more alone than partnered in my entire life, and the times that I have been partnered, I think I have been much more stable. I think that’s human nature.

I think what is so triggering about the situation is this feeling, which is fleeting, that maybe I was on the edge of finding someone who I really could understand and bond with. It’s still way too soon to know if that was likely or not, but it felt so… Hopeful… and yet as I sit here and write, I feel very little hope.  My past history, and a lifetime of observations, tell me that this situation is hopeless.

does that mean I am not going to be patient and take the steps forward? It doesn’t mean that. I always seem to take steps forward, despite the fact that most of the time those steps produce very little of almost nothing to get me where I think I’d like to be.

and so it goes…

[Wiseman2]

Have you set up the date for next weekend yet? It seems like you narrowed it down to you traveling to her and her choosing the place?

You don't mention much about her as a person. For example does she have kids? Is she divorced?  How old is she? What types of things is she interested in? 

[Whirling D]

1 minute ago, Wiseman2 said:

Have you set up the date for next weekend yet? It seems like you narrowed it down to you traveling to her and her choosing the place?

You don't mention much about her as a person. For example does she have kids? Is she divorced?  How old is she? What types of things is she interested in? 

We have narrowed it down to next Saturday, and we both agreed we could figure out what we were going to do as it got closer… She did mention she liked the dog walking idea. I’m not crazy about that one, since it’s not hugely personal, and it seems rather detached, but it was me that suggested it, but it wasn’t intended as our second date. We will figure that out.

I often wonder if her liking the dog walking idea may have been a way of putting a little bit of a distance between us that might feel safer to her emotionally.  Just a thought. That kind of date doesn’t seem too “romantic“.

we didn’t really talk about a lot of the things that she likes to do. We talked more about general things. Family. Exes. Her dating profile said she didn’t have any kids, and we didn’t talk about that. We didn’t even really talk much about my kid, and she didn’t ask, so I will bring that up when I see her next, if it seems appropriate.

I did ask her if she likes to dance, because I know that it makes me feel awkward… Don’t remember why I asked her that, but she said she didn’t like to dance, and we kind of laughed about that because we both feel awkward dancing… There were several things that we agreed about that are a bit quirky, that made me feel a little more connected to her… We seem to have a few similar ways of being in the world, if you will, and that felt hugely validating and comforting. 

I suppose it is important that you enjoy the same kinds of things as a potential partner, and I get a sense that we would enjoy a lot of the same things… But there would be no way to know without getting to know her more. But I have to get there. And I’m not feeling hugely confident that I’m going to.  

I think my biggest fear is that she’s going to say that the distance is just more than she feels like she wants to manage. The distance is annoying, but with somebody that I really connected with, I would make it happen. Not everybody feels that. She likely has more than enough opportunities to meet men and attract men that she could probably choose any parameters she wants. That’s anxiety producing right on its own. 

[MissCanuck]

16 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

She likely has more than enough opportunities to meet men and attract men that she could probably choose any parameters she wants

Again, this is you projecting. You have no clue how many options she has. 

That's not say she isn't a good person with men at her fingertips. She may be - or not. But the point is that you keep setting her on a pedestal when you feel triggered, and you let your apparent inferority complex steer your thinking. 

Your fears are not necessarily facts. Try to stop giving those fears so much leverage. 

[Whirling D]

Just now, MissCanuck said:

Again, this is you projecting. You have no clue how many options she has. 

That's not say she isn't a good person with men at her fingertips. She may be - or not. But the point is that you keep setting her on a pedestal when you feel triggered, and you let your apparent inferority complex steer your thinking. 

Your fears are not necessarily facts. Try to stop giving those fears so much leverage. 

Thank you Canuck… And although I agree with you, my past experiences seem to prove otherwise. 

I do put her on a pedestal… Probably because ladies like her have never been part of my circle, and I’ve never attracted them.

and I do have an inferiority complex, and what makes it considerably complicated is that I actually think that I’m a really good person and very likable, but history has told me that that’s not returned in-kind on a regular basis.  I feel like I have been barely tolerated most of my life.  That’s not my imagination. I have pages and pages on here describing why I feel that way.   I am very much an odd fish in a very large pond here, with very large other Fish that are mostly alike swimming all around me. That’s not a comforting feeling, and certainly not a recipe to attract partners.

[MissCanuck]

6 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

And although I agree with you, my past experiences seem to prove otherwise.

Prove what?

There is nothing to prove or disprove. The point is that you let your anxiety consume you. 

[Whirling D]

6 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

Prove what?

There is nothing to prove or disprove. The point is that you let your anxiety consume you. 

Yes, but there’s no magic formula to cure that.  I’ve got things to do, and deadlines to meet, so I can’t just take a pill to cure anxiety.  It almost doesn’t matter what I do, the outcome still always seems the same. Anxiety, depression, and then abandonment trauma. It’s pretty much a vicious cycle, and I’ve been handling it my whole life. Sometimes better than others. Not great right now.

[MissCanuck]

9 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Yes, but there’s no magic formula to cure that.  I’ve got things to do, and deadlines to meet, so I can’t just take a pill to cure anxiety. 

Nobody suggested that you should, nor that there is a magic cure. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. 

The point is that you think you know what this woman is about and what she wants. That is rather arrogant, considering how little you actually know about her. Think about that. 

[Whirling D]

9 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

Nobody suggested that you should, nor that there is a magic cure. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. 

The point is that you think you know what this woman is about and what she wants. That is rather arrogant, considering how little you actually know about her. Think about that. 

I’ve never said I absolutely know what this woman wants. I don’t know where you’re getting that.

what I do know is that I have never, ever, attracted women with her kind of background… And statistically speaking, based on my own history, the likelihood of a lady like that being interested in someone like me is very low. In fact, considering my history, it’s been zero. That’s not speculation. 

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, Whirling D said:

We have narrowed it down to next Saturday, and we both agreed we could figure out what we were going to do as it got closer… She did mention she liked the dog walking idea. I’m not crazy about that one, 

If neither of you want the dog walking idea, ask her to pick a place or thing she would like to go. There's still some time to agree on something but try to be prompt (not last minute) about asking her to pick what she would like. That's also a way for you to see more about her world and tastes.  

[Whirling D]

23 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

If neither of you want the dog walking idea, ask her to pick a place or thing she would like to go. There's still some time to agree on something but try to be prompt (not last minute) about asking her to pick what she would like. That's also a way for you to see more about her world and tastes.  

That’s exactly what I was thinking… We’ve been going back-and-forth over our last few communications, but part of me doesn’t want to seem indecisive.

I know what I would like to do. She said she likes the beach, and I asked her about this one place not that far from where she lives where there is an ocean walk, and it’s beautiful. She said she was there when she was quite a bit younger…

I believe I mentioned that to her during our first conversation, but I was rattling off a few things, but I didn’t get a “oh that would be nice.”

Of course, doing that would either mean meeting her up there, which is probably a half an hour from her (hour and a half for me), or asking her if I could pick her up and we could go together. That’s pretty bold, and with her seeming to lean toward the dog walk idea, which is much more placid and safe.  I’m getting the impression that she may not really want bold at this stage, yet.

[Whirling D]

You guys are going to harass me and give me a hard time about this… But…

I was just outside on this glorious day, doing some much-needed yardwork… And a chunk of the time I was out there I was thinking of The doctor lady…

I don’t even really like calling her that, because I don’t really think of her as much in terms of her being a doctor… Of course, that’s a greater part of what she does, but it’s only part of what I find attractive about her.  

I even tried to go on here and change the title of this thread, because it bugged me that it referred to her as, doctor lady… So, from here on in, I will only use that term for clarification, which still feels a little uncomfortable.

Anyway, while I was out doing yardwork I was thinking… You know, I’m out here right now with the hopes that someday she’ll come here, and my property will look nice… Despite their being way way more than I can ever keep up with, and still with the property looking fairly rugged, by comparison to a well landscaped place.

she wasn’t the only thing I thought about out there, but she came to mind fairly often, and I was hopeful that I could someday tell her that I was out there making it look nice in the event that she came to visit. I was out there working for her, if you will.  I find that somewhat romantic and sweet… I’m sure other people would think it’s weird. That’s OK. I have to embrace my inner romantic… 🙂

and yes, that is my goal… I’d love to have somebody come here and love this place, despite the messes, and someday decide that they would want to come share this vision. It’s such a nice piece of land.

and yes… This is all a fantasy… But that’s what I’m working toward, but have yet to find.

I remember the second to last girlfriend, who I actually had a lot of things in common with… She would always grill me with the idea of moving in here. She loved this place. She kept saying that she’d love to come in and help make it nicer, and I thought that was a great idea.

but when she would get out of control, she would start saying things like… You’ll never let me come in here and change things, because you’re too stuck in your ways and hate change.

I told her she could take it upon herself to come in and do things, and we could decide together what we both liked. So, she decided she hated my hanging shower rack, so a couple of times we were out, and she pointed out shower racks that she thought she liked, and that she wanted to buy for me.

doesn’t it take two to agree upon something? I told her that the one she was looking at didn’t quite meet what my needs were and what I was thinking of, and I had every belief that we could find something that we both liked…

later, she got really ugly about that, and said that I was sabotaging her moving in there by disagreeing with things that she suggested.  

I mean, I do get it, I guess me shooting down her idea seemed invalidating. But I didn’t know what else to do. I knew what she was looking at would not fit all the stuff I needed to go in there.

sadly, I just couldn’t win with that girl.

 

[Whirling D]

Maybe the dust is settling a bit on my brain, and at least at this point, I am realizing I am just another nice guy this current lady met, and that’s what you guys have been saying all along… 

[Wiseman2]

29 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

I know what I would like to do. 

Sorry. Nope. Unfortunately have to disagree with you making all the suggestions.  Ask her what She would like and ask her to pick the place and activities. It's time to be flexible and accommodating and allow part of her world, her tastes and who she is to shine through.  It works in your favor because if she picks the places and activities, you can't go wrong. Additionally it allows you to learn more about her. 

[Batya33]

I like the idea of an activity because that would decrease your anxiety.  It doesn’t need to be adventurous. I’d assume she is dating others or looking to date others as she should be.  This will be an official first date and it’s good that you two have a plan !  I’d do what she wants to do. 

[Whirling D]

Thankfully my anxiety was under control when I met with her a week ago. It’s not like my anxiety controls my entire life. It’s more like an annoying partner or sibling that just doesn’t get out of the way… 🙂

Normally, I would feel more comfortable asking her what she would like to do, because that’s just kind of the way I do things. But lots of folks on here, and even dating experts, say that women like guys that take charge and show their alpha side.

speaking of alpha side… Although this may come off as kind of strange, and I hope it doesn’t… Many of the women that I have dated in my adult life I was able to somewhat take on a bit of an alpha role. In some ways, that’s what gave me the confidence to be assertive romantically and somewhat take the lead. Most of these ladies were quite smitten with that confidence.

I may have a hard time feeling that confidence with this lady, which means it’s going to be really hard for me to take steps to make it romantic, if that makes any sense. I’m gonna have to see some really strong signs that she wants me to progress things with her, before I am going to have even the slightest confidence of doing simple things like… Hold her hand, or kiss her passionately. Those are going to be tough hurdles, and I’m quite worried that I won’t have that confidence, and I’ll end up just being her friend.  That may have very well made the difference with my last three lady friends… Who knows it could’ve gone either way, had I not been somewhat bold and even a little brazen.  

well, the dog walking thing sounds passive. It sounds almost as if she’s kind of saying… “I want something safe and easy and not something that could be construed as a date.“ Who the heck goes on their first real date on a dog walk?

feels lame to me, but if it’s dog walking that she chooses, I may just suggest taking her dog, that way I could leave mine at home and maybe do something after, but that may seem suggestive and leading.

I did suggest doing something else afterward, like maybe find someplace to sit down to eat, and I told her stories of when I’ve taken my dog into places before, and sometimes it was fine, and a couple of times we’ve been told we couldn’t come in… I wonder if even suggesting that we might be able to go somewhere afterward might’ve been a little leading. 

some of these things make me wonder if that’s why she’s been seemingly playing a little cool over the last few days. But that’s crystal ball thinking, and isn’t really getting me anywhere.

but if it’s dog walking she wants, I will certainly do that.

[Whirling D]

I have to say… After a fair amount of years on and off dating sites, and haphazardly trying to find a date over most of my adult life, this lady is likely the nicest lady I will have ever gone out with on a date like this.

Probably by a country mile.

and, yeah, I don’t really know her yet.

[Jaunty]

5 hours ago, Whirling D said:

I’ve never said I absolutely know what this woman wants. I don’t know where you’re getting that.

Agreed that you haven't said that you "absolutely know what this woman wants."  

You are spending a great amount of emotional energy projecting, conjecturing (in great detail) and following many rabbit trails in your imagination about who she is and what she wants.  Some of the paths you follow lead you to feeling better.  Others lead you to feeling darker.  But none of them have anything to do with you being in a "receiving" place where you would be able to pay attention to what she is actually showing you, and thus, starting to know who she is.

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

, I would feel more comfortable asking her what she would like to do, But lots of  dating experts say..  

Just contact her in the next days and ask her to pick out her favorite places, activities in her area, and you would enjoy whatever she suggests.

Skip the dogs and other unnecessary complications.  Make sure you plan to have cash/ credit available, even if she pays or you go Dutch.

Try not to be too controlling about it.  You can reciprocate by inviting her down next time and planning a nice date.  Try to refrain from the "dating experts" for a while to clear your mind.

[Batya33]

It’s not alpha male to act in an assertive way. Alpha male to me is a stereotype or caricature. Like the middle aged guy who comes to our small fitness room once in awhile with his notebook then proceeds to do a sort of circuit training thing with the machines and weights for about then minutes. Lots of groaning etc then leaves. At around 5am. That to me is image of “alpha male” - sort of strong determined fighter lifting weights.

I’d lose the mindset that it’s a big deal to be assertive on a date or to ask a woman out and have a specific plan in mind etc. that’s just typical human interaction.  And not gender specific. 

[Whirling D]

3 hours ago, Jaunty said:

Agreed that you haven't said that you "absolutely know what this woman wants."  

You are spending a great amount of emotional energy projecting, conjecturing (in great detail) and following many rabbit trails in your imagination about who she is and what she wants.  Some of the paths you follow lead you to feeling better.  Others lead you to feeling darker.  But none of them have anything to do with you being in a "receiving" place where you would be able to pay attention to what she is actually showing you, and thus, starting to know who she is.

Thank you for the thought…

I was thinking a little bit along these lines this afternoon, when I thought to myself… A huge amount of my fear comes from almost exactly the opposite of what you are describing. I think both of us were so very present when we were sitting there chatting (at least I was, and it clearly seemed like she was, as well), it almost felt surreal. For me, It’s as close to feeling like two peas in a pod as I have ever come on a date. 

of course, everybody has differences, and we did, as well… And I don’t really know her, you are right. Much of this is conjured up in my own puny little brain… But as the day went on last Sunday, I started to feel more and more in touch with her and more in sync.  

I think it is that feeling of being in sync that’s driving me a little batty.  Typically, when I am sitting with someone, I am often able to let go of a lot of that stuff and concentrate on what’s right in front of me. I don’t do a lot of things particularly well, but I’m pretty good when I have somebody sitting right in front of me at being attentive, thoughtful, and a bit empathic. I tend to latch on to feelings and emotions pretty quickly when I am with someone, and I’m not often that far off.  I could go on and on with that one.