Where is the line between realism and negative self talk?

[Cynder]

I've been looking for a part time job just to help out with bills in the off season.  I work full time in a health club and I also work at festivals.  But since festival season doesn't start for a few months, I am looking for a way to make more money.  (Disclaimer, this is not a thread asking for advice on job hunting or money management.  I am just providing some background on this situation.) 

The owner of a local bar works out at the club and she told me to come in and apply there.  So I'm planning on doing that on Monday.  I was talking to my boyfriend about it about an hour ago and he asked what I would be doing.  I told him they would probably put me in the kitchen since I have experience as a prep cook.  And I said I doubt they would put me behind the bar since I don't really have the look for it. 

My BF has told me multiple times that I shouldn't put myself down like that.  But to me it's not putting myself down.  It's just being realistic.  I have never seen a bar tender who wasn't drop dead gorgeous.  That's a big part of the job.  Being hot and flirting with customers sells drinks.  I told him I'm just not the kind of pretty they are looking for.  He was mildly annoyed with this. 

I used to refer to myself as ugly.  I don't do that anymore.  I think of myself now as not conventionally attractive.  I have naturally curly hair that is long and wild and it's currently a mix of green, blue and purple.  I am heavily tattooed, too.  I know having tattoos and colored hair are my choice.  I decided if I was going to be unattractive I will at least be unique looking and unattractive instead of plain and unattractive.  The things that are beyond my control are the things I really don't like about myself.  My eyes are really off putting for a lot of people. They are a rare color, but most people don't even notice the color.  They just notice that they are crossed. And there is no fixing them, either. I've learned how to use makeup, etc to make it less obvious, but people still notice.  I also have a butterface. 

As much as people don't like to admit it, looks matter a lot.  Attractive people get away with a lot more in our society and they generally have it easier.  They make more money.  They get promoted more.  Judges are more sympathetic to them.  They are perceived as being "better" than unattractive people.  There are so many studies and social experiments that prove this. 

And society doesn't lie, either.  I had the little nephew of one of my exes look at my ex at a family gathering and say right in front of me, "Why is your girlfriend so ugly?"  At festivals, when I have an attractive person helping me at my booth, people walk right up to my employee and tell them how talented they are and how beautiful their work is.  Ok... but It's my work.  As teenagers my sister and I were treated unequally.  She got a lot more privileges simply because she is pretty.  And that was the reason my Mom even gave when I asked her about this a few times.  I could give a lot of examples of stuff like this happening to me.  So in my opinion to sit here and say, "Oh yea, I'm so hot, of course they'll make me a bar tender!"  is just flat out delusional thinking. 

So, simple question... what is the difference between being negative and being realistic in this kind of situation? I have seen similar things happen to overweight people who refer to themselves as overweight.  People in the room are like, "Oh now, don't put yourself down like that!"  But ok... if the person really is overweight what are they supposed to do, call themself skinny?

Idk if this is even a request for advice, I'm more curious what people's thoughts are on the subject. 

[Jaunty]

I think it's best to just go for what you want without letting "realism" or "negative self talk," either one, get in your way  You're correct, of course; attractive people have a much different experience in life than those of us who aren't good looking.  Many things come much more easily to beautiful humans.  Still - if you would like to be a bartender, you would be self sabotaging to simply forget about that because you don't think you look good enough.  

[Cynder]

17 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

I think it's best to just go for what you want without letting "realism" or "negative self talk," either one, get in your way  You're correct, of course; attractive people have a much different experience in life than those of us who aren't good looking.  Many things come much more easily to beautiful humans.  Still - if you would like to be a bartender, you would be self sabotaging to simply forget about that because you don't think you look good enough.  

I was just asked to apply by the owner.  If I interview and they say that's what they want me to do, then great.  I just was telling him I doubt they would put me behind the bar.  Honestly I have no real ambitions with this job.  I work full time at the health club and I own my own business.  I don't really care what I do for a part time job in the off season as long as it's reasonably stress free and the pay is decent.  If I was offered a job flipping burgers I would do it. 

 

[catfeeder]

3 hours ago, Cynder said:

So, simple question... what is the difference between being negative and being realistic in this kind of situation?

A reply of, "I'm not sure, that's what I'll need to find out...." instead of presuming to know the answer.

I'd keep in mind that telling a partner something like that is putting down his vision of you as well as his choice of you. He may take that as being disrespectful of him, not just yourself.

Given the photos I've seen of you, I'd front-bar you without hesitation. 

You may not have been everyone's cup of tea while you were growing up, but you're a woman now. You are not your past. You are the person you've become.

Catch up with your Self.

[Cynder]

4 hours ago, catfeeder said:

A reply of, "I'm not sure, that's what I'll need to find out...." instead of presuming to know the answer.

I'd keep in mind that telling a partner something like that is putting down his vision of you as well as his choice of you. He may take that as being disrespectful of him, not just yourself.

Given the photos I've seen of you, I'd front-bar you without hesitation. 

You may not have been everyone's cup of tea while you were growing up, but you're a woman now. You are not your past. You are the person you've become.

Catch up with your Self.

Right.  I know he doesn't exactly see himself as attractive either, but for different reasons (mainly gender dysphoria.)  To me he is stunning, though.  I wish he could see himself through my eyes. 

In a lot of ways being with him has changed the way I feel about myself.  I used to be one of those people who apologized for everything I did, even when it wasn't wrong.  He started calling me out whenever I did it, and so now I don't do that any more.  And it isn't even like I still do it when he's not around, either.  I don't do it at all.  And he is also someone who apologizes for everything, so now I call him out on it. 

I'm really glad I have someone who thinks I'm attractive, etc.  It's just hard to ignore all the times I've been told otherwise by a lot of other people.  I wish that was something I could just get over. 

Also, I fell asleep for a bit when I was watching a movie earlier, and I woke up to a message from him.  It was the attached pic.  I'm sure it's not a coincidence that he sent me that after the conversation we had earlier. 

[Batya33]

9 hours ago, Cynder said:

So, simple question... what is the difference between being negative and being realistic in this kind of situation? I have seen similar things happen to overweight people who refer to themselves as overweight.  People in the room are like, "Oh now, don't put yourself down like that!"  But ok... if the person really is overweight what are they supposed to do, call themself skinny?

Idk if this is even a request for advice, I'm more curious what people's thoughts are on the subject. 

I LOVE this question and do NOT have an easy answer!  It depends.  It depends on the situation and context.

I have this memory.  I am reasonably attractive/cute and been told I was more than on many occasions.  I am older now but I was never a "glamour" girl -I was like the ivory girl.  Not a head turner but fine to look at. 

So the memory.  I did personal ads in the 1980s.  A man sent me his photo in the mail.  I was in my early 20s.  My mom was and is an awesome thoughtful human being.  I was cute then/pretty.  So this photo -he was hot.  He was really tall.  So so handsome.  Around my age. My mom -bless her heart -said "um nope. don't meet him." She was being realistic -she saw that he and I weren't a match attractive-wise - I was short and cute and he looked like a male model.  And so tall, ridiculously tall.  I wasn't offended -I saw her realistic approach.  I actually don't think we met and I'm not sure why -not just because of my mom's input. 

I absolutely have realistically judged my chances at certain jobs based on assessments of my looks, intelligence, skills, talents and no I don't think it was negative. 

But here's a contrasting example.  In the early 90s I applied to graduate schools.  I was told to go to the best one I could get into even without a scholarship because of how competitive the industry was.  I accepted a school. I was in the car with my uncle for a 45 minute drive.  I was in my early 20s.  I told him "I got into ____ and I'm just so afraid I'll fail.  I'm just not good enough to do well there." He said bluntly and simply "no, that's not true -I expect that you will be at least in the top 25% of your class." 

He would not allow me to be down on my intelligence and abiltiies to compete. He is the only person who I actually listened to -who helped me turn off the negative self-talk.  Realistically -I was right.  I was competing against people from top colleges and I had not gone to a top college.  Not even close.  That was reality too.  But my uncle drew the line at me deciding that just because they went to better colleges that I couldn't compete given my other qualities.  And he was right.  And I carried his opinion with me during that horribly competitive grad school time - it was intense - but that helped so much at a time when I needed someone else to draw the line between negative and realistic.

I actually do agree with you - I think the front facing bar type job is for someone who is objectively more of a glamour girl (so it wouldn't have been for me either) - it's cool that you're not of that sort of look and it's cool that you know that.  So? But for example you know you have artistic abilities and if a job required your artistic talents and you downgraded the too much perhaps you would self-talk and realize -no - that's negative.  I can do this. 

I mean why is it negative to say "I can't sing so I'm not going to apply for a job that requires me to serenade customers" just like "I don't have the sort of face, the sort of look that most people who have this job have and this is a front facing job and plastic surgery is not what I want/not an option?"  Don't actresses have to do that all the time -be realistic? Am I making any sense? 

Thanks again for asking this question.  It's an interesting and wise one. 

 

[itsallgrand]

In this situation I do think you are cutting yourself down at the knees and bartending is totally achievable for you if you want to put in the effort and develop the skills.

I'm not a stunner, and I think people tend to underestimate bartenders sometimes. Sure, sometimes someone gets the job just because they are hot. But there are also lots of average people who have really good people skills, are great at the job, and are honest. Honest is huge because there's tonnes of theft in the industry!

I've picked up bartending before at some really nice places. You need to have more than looks to last beyond a week or two!! There's an art to it, making people feel comfortable and engaged, mixing good drinks, being fast lol.

I know this is but one example you chose but I think your bf is right on this one. You are cutting yourself down and part of it is lack of real experience in that field, and often times we do tend to do that when we are going off impressions.

I want to say too I 100% believe personality plays a bigger part than a lot of people truly understand. Not just for bartenders, but anything that involves getting people on board with you. 

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, itsallgrand said:

In this situation I do think you are cutting yourself down at the knees and bartending is totally achievable for you if you want to put in the effort and develop the skills.

I'm not a stunner, and I think people tend to underestimate bartenders sometimes. Sure, sometimes someone gets the job just because they are hot. But there are also lots of average people who have really good people skills, are great at the job, and are honest. Honest is huge because there's tonnes of theft in the industry!

I've picked up bartending before at some really nice places. You need to have more than looks to last beyond a week or two!! There's an art to it, making people feel comfortable and engaged, mixing good drinks, being fast lol.

I know this is but one example you chose but I think your bf is right on this one. You are cutting yourself down and part of it is lack of real experience in that field, and often times we do tend to do that when we are going off impressions.

I want to say too I 100% believe personality plays a bigger part than a lot of people truly understand. Not just for bartenders, but anything that involves getting people on board with you. 

For sure if it is not about looks primarily then I agree- I have such little knowledge about this line of work other than I know good bartending requires so many different skills!

[catfeeder]

4 hours ago, Cynder said:

I'm really glad I have someone who thinks I'm attractive, etc.  It's just hard to ignore all the times I've been told otherwise by a lot of other people.  I wish that was something I could just get over. 

I understand. If you consider that even the most beautiful adult has had periods in their life when they were not-so-hot, and despite thousands of instances over the course of their upbringing when they were encouraged, it was ONLY the knocks of negativity that they latched onto as shaping their insecurities. 

This is likely why the book, "The Ugly Duckling," was invented, to encourage kids to envision their own growth out of their awkward and 'ugly' stages into a beautiful swan.

Contrast that with your upbringing, where you were constantly put down, even by those who were supposed to love and nurture you, and it's no surprise that the negativity was so deeply ingrained.

So this isn't a fault of yours, it was developmental. Your growth into a swan was so incremental that you've been unable to see it and feel it.

It's also likely that your family and others who tried to hide their inner ugly from the world targeted you as being mean or stupid because they feared that your inner spark of intelligence could see straight through them. So they went defensive on you and tried to snuff that vision.

You may want to raise this stuff with your therapist, not just as a reporter the way you write here, but rather as a request for help with exploration of your natural gifts that have been hidden from you. In doing this you may be able to flip your inner critic away from constant proof seeking of your bullied duckling self, and train your script to strengthen your inner swan.

The goal being, to make that your default voice, which can either override or hardly notice all the slings and arrows thrown your way. As your inner critic becomes weaker and your swan becomes stronger, you are likely to attract fewer and fewer attacks from the external bullies of the world. You'll ascend to a place where they can't reach you with any degree of the old 'confirmation', even when they overtly try.

Head high, Cynder.

[Jaunty]

11 hours ago, Cynder said:

 If I interview and they say that's what they wand I don't really care what I do for a part time job in the off season as long as it's reasonably stress free and the pay is decent.  If I was offered a job flipping burgers I would do it. 

 

My perspective was more that bartending is going to be a lot more lucrative than burger flipping and it's a valuable skill that can serve a person well who has periods of wanting to pick up work.   

[Batya33]

16 hours ago, Cynder said:

My BF has told me multiple times that I shouldn't put myself down like that

As a side note maybe ease up on the self-deprecating comments in front of your BF -sounds like he's had his fill of it - it becomes TMI and a little been there done that/asked and answered.  

[Cynder]

41 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

As a side note maybe ease up on the self-deprecating comments in front of your BF -sounds like he's had his fill of it - it becomes TMI and a little been there done that/asked and answered.  

I haven't read most of the replies here yet.  But to me this wasn't even self deprecating.  It was just me being realistic about the job.  That's the question I'm asking.  Where does realism end and self deprecating begin? 

[Cynder]

3 hours ago, catfeeder said:

I understand. If you consider that even the most beautiful adult has had periods in their life when they were not-so-hot, and despite thousands of instances over the course of their upbringing when they were encouraged, it was ONLY the knocks of negativity that they latched onto as shaping their insecurities. 

This is likely why the book, "The Ugly Duckling," was invented, to encourage kids to envision their own growth out of their awkward and 'ugly' stages into a beautiful swan.

Contrast that with your upbringing, where you were constantly put down, even by those who were supposed to love and nurture you, and it's no surprise that the negativity was so deeply ingrained.

So this isn't a fault of yours, it was developmental. Your growth into a swan was so incremental that you've been unable to see it and feel it.

It's also likely that your family and others who tried to hide their inner ugly from the world targeted you as being mean or stupid because they feared that your inner spark of intelligence could see straight through them. So they went defensive on you and tried to snuff that vision.

You may want to raise this stuff with your therapist, not just as a reporter the way you write here, but rather as a request for help with exploration of your natural gifts that have been hidden from you. In doing this you may be able to flip your inner critic away from constant proof seeking of your bullied duckling self, and train your script to strengthen your inner swan.

The goal being, to make that your default voice, which can either override or hardly notice all the slings and arrows thrown your way. As your inner critic becomes weaker and your swan becomes stronger, you are likely to attract fewer and fewer attacks from the external bullies of the world. You'll ascend to a place where they can't reach you with any degree of the old 'confirmation', even when they overtly try.

Head high, Cynder.

Looks were such a big thing in my house growing up.  And my parents were both good looking people.  My Mom was the stereotypical hot mom.  She was the lady in the neighborhood who oiled up and mowed the grass in a bikini.  Guys hit on her everywhere she went.  Etc.  But behind closed doors she was an alcoholic and a cokehead who had a bad temper and was really insecure. 

My Dad was a good looking guy, too.  But he was also an alcoholic who beat women and constantly screwed around on my Mom.  I think their looks was really all that had to cling to because they both knew their lives were a trainwreck. 

I remember my Dad had this creepy fixation on a girl who lived next to us for a few years.  He was always talking about how beautiful she is, etc.  And a year or so after she moved and wasn't our neighbor anymore she brought a gun to school and held another girl hostage in the bathroom.  There was this whole standoff between her and the cops.  The rest of us kids were all sent home early, etc. 

As soon as my dad found out the details he sat there and cried.  But he was only crying because that girl was so pretty.  He's bawling his eyes out saying things like, "But how could she do that?  She's so pretty!"  So there was this idea that beautiful people are not flawed in my family.  My dad especially seemed to think that good looking people can do no wrong. 

Out of my two brothers, one of them is better looking.  And the better looking brother also was treated a lot better than the average looking brother.  (Oddly enough my good looking bother doesn't speak to any of us anymore.  He hasn't since 2016.  He disowned our whole family.)

I have a really hard time taking compliments.  Like, someone could stand there and call me every name in the book and I will just roll my eyes and be like, "Ok, you done yet?"  But there have been times when a compliment lead to me having to go in the bathroom and cry. 

D is one of the few people I've dated who doesn't have any issue with how I look.  And in my time with him I've started putting a lot more effort into how I present myself.  I used to just go to work with my hair down and not bother wearing any makeup, etc.  Lately I've been putting my hair up for work, doing my nails, etc.  It's interesting that being with someone who actually likes how I look has made me want to look better even when I'm not around him. 

I actually need to reschedule an appointment with my therapist because she had something come up last week.  And yes, this is a good thing to bring up with her. 

[Cynder]

8 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I LOVE this question and do NOT have an easy answer!  It depends.  It depends on the situation and context.

I have this memory.  I am reasonably attractive/cute and been told I was more than on many occasions.  I am older now but I was never a "glamour" girl -I was like the ivory girl.  Not a head turner but fine to look at. 

So the memory.  I did personal ads in the 1980s.  A man sent me his photo in the mail.  I was in my early 20s.  My mom was and is an awesome thoughtful human being.  I was cute then/pretty.  So this photo -he was hot.  He was really tall.  So so handsome.  Around my age. My mom -bless her heart -said "um nope. don't meet him." She was being realistic -she saw that he and I weren't a match attractive-wise - I was short and cute and he looked like a male model.  And so tall, ridiculously tall.  I wasn't offended -I saw her realistic approach.  I actually don't think we met and I'm not sure why -not just because of my mom's input. 

I absolutely have realistically judged my chances at certain jobs based on assessments of my looks, intelligence, skills, talents and no I don't think it was negative. 

But here's a contrasting example.  In the early 90s I applied to graduate schools.  I was told to go to the best one I could get into even without a scholarship because of how competitive the industry was.  I accepted a school. I was in the car with my uncle for a 45 minute drive.  I was in my early 20s.  I told him "I got into ____ and I'm just so afraid I'll fail.  I'm just not good enough to do well there." He said bluntly and simply "no, that's not true -I expect that you will be at least in the top 25% of your class." 

He would not allow me to be down on my intelligence and abiltiies to compete. He is the only person who I actually listened to -who helped me turn off the negative self-talk.  Realistically -I was right.  I was competing against people from top colleges and I had not gone to a top college.  Not even close.  That was reality too.  But my uncle drew the line at me deciding that just because they went to better colleges that I couldn't compete given my other qualities.  And he was right.  And I carried his opinion with me during that horribly competitive grad school time - it was intense - but that helped so much at a time when I needed someone else to draw the line between negative and realistic.

I actually do agree with you - I think the front facing bar type job is for someone who is objectively more of a glamour girl (so it wouldn't have been for me either) - it's cool that you're not of that sort of look and it's cool that you know that.  So? But for example you know you have artistic abilities and if a job required your artistic talents and you downgraded the too much perhaps you would self-talk and realize -no - that's negative.  I can do this. 

I mean why is it negative to say "I can't sing so I'm not going to apply for a job that requires me to serenade customers" just like "I don't have the sort of face, the sort of look that most people who have this job have and this is a front facing job and plastic surgery is not what I want/not an option?"  Don't actresses have to do that all the time -be realistic? Am I making any sense? 

Thanks again for asking this question.  It's an interesting and wise one. 

 

Yes!  A peacock is beautiful and so is an owl.  But they are beautiful in different ways and for different reasons.  Could I be a runways model for Versace? Absolutely not.  Could I be in Inked Magazine? Yea possibly.   I even told him during this conversation, I am probably not the kind of pretty they want for that job. 

I have a similar memory with my Mom but it was more of a negative thing.  When I started dating my ex husband I overheard her talking to my uncle about how he must only be dating me as a joke, and how maybe him and all his friends were having a contest to see who could get the ugliest girl or something.  And it's not like my ex husband was some hot supermodel of a guy.  He looked like Rob Zombie.  At the time that really offended me to hear my Mom say that.  But now I look back and just laugh because she was being so ridiculous. 

I really would be curious to know what kind of stuff my Mom has said about D when I'm not around. 

 

[Cynder]

6 hours ago, itsallgrand said:

In this situation I do think you are cutting yourself down at the knees and bartending is totally achievable for you if you want to put in the effort and develop the skills.

I'm not a stunner, and I think people tend to underestimate bartenders sometimes. Sure, sometimes someone gets the job just because they are hot. But there are also lots of average people who have really good people skills, are great at the job, and are honest. Honest is huge because there's tonnes of theft in the industry!

I've picked up bartending before at some really nice places. You need to have more than looks to last beyond a week or two!! There's an art to it, making people feel comfortable and engaged, mixing good drinks, being fast lol.

I know this is but one example you chose but I think your bf is right on this one. You are cutting yourself down and part of it is lack of real experience in that field, and often times we do tend to do that when we are going off impressions.

I want to say too I 100% believe personality plays a bigger part than a lot of people truly understand. Not just for bartenders, but anything that involves getting people on board with you. 

The people skills aspect is interesting, because my job now is the most vapid job I've ever had.  95% of the people I interact with at work are there for vanity and nothing else.  But I get told a lot that people like coming in when I'm working because I'm so much friendlier than the other people who work there.  Someone even talked about me in a google review of the place, in a positive way. 

I have a customer who works at Bath and Body, and she has brought me bottles of lotion and body spray a few times.  I also had a customer (female) give me a rose once.  I am probably the least conventionally attractive person who works where I work.  Everyone else is perfectly fit, tanned, the guys are all ripped, etc.  So even working somewhere like this, I do well and the customers really like me.  So I must have something to offer. 

[Jaunty]

2 hours ago, Cynder said:

 That's the question I'm asking.  Where does realism end and self deprecating begin? 

Since physical beauty is absolutely not a general requirement for bartenders,  I would say that this falls into the "self deprecation" category.   If you were talking about trying for a job as a model, maybe it would be more realistic to demur because of your looks.  

That said, I generally believe that people need to go for what they want and deciding that it's not going to happen because of what one's face looks like is something I'd discourage.   

"Realism" in job qualification is actually based on whether a person actually has the capacity to perform the job.  

[itsallgrand]

1 hour ago, Cynder said:

The people skills aspect is interesting, because my job now is the most vapid job I've ever had.  95% of the people I interact with at work are there for vanity and nothing else.  But I get told a lot that people like coming in when I'm working because I'm so much friendlier than the other people who work there.  Someone even talked about me in a google review of the place, in a positive way. 

I have a customer who works at Bath and Body, and she has brought me bottles of lotion and body spray a few times.  I also had a customer (female) give me a rose once.  I am probably the least conventionally attractive person who works where I work.  Everyone else is perfectly fit, tanned, the guys are all ripped, etc.  So even working somewhere like this, I do well and the customers really like me.  So I must have something to offer. 

Exactly!! People really value that.

[Jibralta]

On 1/29/2023 at 2:33 PM, Cynder said:

Where does realism end and self deprecating begin? 

Maybe it's the reverse? Maybe self-deprecation ends when you do something--despite your doubts, do it anyway--and succeed. 

[Batya33]

11 hours ago, Jibralta said:

Maybe it's the reverse? Maybe self-deprecation ends when you do something--despite your doubts, do it anyway--and succeed. 

Yes and sometimes though the self-deprecating person will dismiss the accomplishment consistent with negativity like "oh it was just luck" or "yes I finally did X but most people didn't take as long as I did."

[Cynder]

11 hours ago, Jibralta said:

Maybe it's the reverse? Maybe self-deprecation ends when you do something--despite your doubts, do it anyway--and succeed. 

Well, what I think didn't stop me from applying for the job.  And if they want to put me behind the bar then I will do it.  I was just saying I doubt they will because of how I look.  But who knows. 

I do agree with you, though.  Putting doubt aside is huge. 

[Cynder]

6 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Yes and sometimes though the self-deprecating person will dismiss the accomplishment consistent with negativity like "oh it was just luck" or "yes I finally did X but most people didn't take as long as I did."

This could also fall under the umbrella of imposter syndrome.  I catch myself thinking all the time that I'm not a real artist.  I got a full ride scholarship to art school, and graduated with honors.  My work has shown in galleries.  And people pay a lot of money for my paintings.  I also get hired to do album covers, book covers, etc.  That pretty much describes an artist.  And just about every artist I know personally deals with it, too.  It seems like no artist thinks they're a real artist. But is also doesn't help that society has a really warped view of what an artist is, too. 

[Batya33]

Just now, Cynder said:

This could also fall under the umbrella of imposter syndrome.  I catch myself thinking all the time that I'm not a real artist.  I got a full ride scholarship to art school, and graduated with honors.  My work has shown in galleries.  And people pay a lot of money for my paintings.  I also get hired to do album covers, book covers, etc.  That pretty much describes an artist.  And just about every artist I know personally deals with it, too.  It seems like no artist thinks they're a real artist. 

I know many artists who absolutely are not like that.  I am not an artist but have worked with many, know many -fine arts, actors, musicians, writers, potters, sculptors over the last 40 plus years.  I've met several celebrities and famous artists (I mean real meetings and real conversations), not so famous artists and up and coming artists. I have artists in my family and my husband's family and have two artworks in our small apartment painted by my dear friend and another by our cousin -the latter one is newer and I look at it almost every day -I so appreciate it and his creativity (and yes I've heard him say some self-deprecating things about the value of his art).

  In every field including mine people have imposter syndrome (and I have endured it personally where I just you know faked it till I made it).  I also don't think it's connected to external validation although for some on the fence I suppose it can help.  

To me someone who creates art and practices their craft/art form =an artist.  I used to write creatively and never had an issue describing myself as a writer.  I published only one poem, I wrote only one book -a children's book (not published but shared with hundreds of children)- and published one nonfiction article. 

I wouldn't call myself a writer now but when I wrote creatively I had no issue believing or sharing with people that I am a person who writes creatively. 

By contrast I have a friendly acquaintance who turned to art intensely after a life changing accident many years ago and personal crises more recently.  Her art form -a fine art I guess - is not something I enjoy looking at or relate to and as a layperson I don't really understand why this particular form is even artistic. 

I rarely comment on her FB postings of her creations.  But it brings her peace, joy, fills her time productively and she seems to believe strongly she is an artist.  She writes about it all the time on her Facebook posts and I believe sold a few? She used to do a different art form which I liked so I would click or comment.  She labels herself as an artist, she floods her newsfeed with her creations, she craves the attention for her creations.  She seems to get clicked on so obviously others enjoy her particular art form.

I get that in your community of artists you've encountered this and I've certainly read about artists who have this sort of mindset.  It's sad IMO! I'm so thankful for so many artists of all art forms! I'm so glad you found your calling as an artist -it takes so much persistence and courage and sweat IMO.

[Cynder]

46 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I know many artists who absolutely are not like that.  I am not an artist but have worked with many, know many -fine arts, actors, musicians, writers, potters, sculptors over the last 40 plus years.  I've met several celebrities and famous artists (I mean real meetings and real conversations), not so famous artists and up and coming artists. I have artists in my family and my husband's family and have two artworks in our small apartment painted by my dear friend and another by our cousin -the latter one is newer and I look at it almost every day -I so appreciate it and his creativity (and yes I've heard him say some self-deprecating things about the value of his art).

  In every field including mine people have imposter syndrome (and I have endured it personally where I just you know faked it till I made it).  I also don't think it's connected to external validation although for some on the fence I suppose it can help.  

To me someone who creates art and practices their craft/art form =an artist.  I used to write creatively and never had an issue describing myself as a writer.  I published only one poem, I wrote only one book -a children's book (not published but shared with hundreds of children)- and published one nonfiction article. 

I wouldn't call myself a writer now but when I wrote creatively I had no issue believing or sharing with people that I am a person who writes creatively. 

By contrast I have a friendly acquaintance who turned to art intensely after a life changing accident many years ago and personal crises more recently.  Her art form -a fine art I guess - is not something I enjoy looking at or relate to and as a layperson I don't really understand why this particular form is even artistic. 

I rarely comment on her FB postings of her creations.  But it brings her peace, joy, fills her time productively and she seems to believe strongly she is an artist.  She writes about it all the time on her Facebook posts and I believe sold a few? She used to do a different art form which I liked so I would click or comment.  She labels herself as an artist, she floods her newsfeed with her creations, she craves the attention for her creations.  She seems to get clicked on so obviously others enjoy her particular art form.

I get that in your community of artists you've encountered this and I've certainly read about artists who have this sort of mindset.  It's sad IMO! I'm so thankful for so many artists of all art forms! I'm so glad you found your calling as an artist -it takes so much persistence and courage and sweat IMO.

It might just be more a thing in the festival scene because we are looked down on by people who do fine art.  

To me, though, it seems like fine art comes with so much pressure.  It's just as much about the statement that's being made as the art itself.  I'm rarely trying to make any social/political commentary when I create.  I'm just creating what I want to create that day.  If I feel like painting something beautiful than I do.  If I feel like painting something grotesque than I do.  I have wondered if the fine art crowd aren't secretly envious of people like me, because I don't have an image to uphold.  I just do what I want and people love it and buy it. 

I've also done a handful of paintings about emotions that SA survivors go through.  Those aren't necessarily fun to look at.  They are pretty disturbing.  I did a painting of myself, naked and uninitialized, with cuts on my body and blood all over me.  This was right after Z left.  That painting is nightmare fuel.  I will never sell it.  And I will never hang it up because I don't want that kind of negative energy on display.  So I really don't know what to do with it.  I also did a painting around that time of a fly eating flesh.  That one is also pretty unsettling.  I feel like so many people think artists need to draw on negative emotions to produce their best work.  But when I tap into that, my work is too disturbing to ever show to anyone. 

I look at other artist's work, who are like me and sell at festivals, and I think they are geniuses and wonder why I can't do work like that.  But I know they are probably thinking the same thing when they look at my work.  Artists are a lot harsher on themselves than on others. 

And then there are people like D, who have no artistic training at all but are crazy talented.  Everything he does is art in its own way.  His fire shows are brilliant.  But to hear him talk about it, it's no big deal.  He doesn't see it as an art form.  He sees it as a series of controlled movements that anyone could do with practice. Ok... yea it's dangerous and take a lot of practice.  But there's so much more than just the movements.  There is stage presence, etc.  His fire performances are captivating.  No one can look away when he's doing his thing.  He just owns the stage.  And his paintings are phenomenal and he's a completely self taught, and he's color blind.  To me that is mind blowing.  But he doesn't think he's that good. 

Now I'm really curious what your friend's art form is.  But I don't expect you to go into detail for the sake of anonymity.  And you are really lucky to have met famous artists.  I have met a few, too, but it was when I was in school so I don't know if that really counts.  The college I went to was really lucky to get a few really well known artists to come and do temporary residences there. 

Anyway...  I;ve rambled enough.  This is just something I'm passionate about. 

[Batya33]

So interesting! I actually don't know what the art form is - just know it's something newer maybe trendy?? Technology related?? I see what she creates and it's not my cup of tea so I don't comment.  I do know the artist's life is not an easy one and I also love seeing how genetic it is in families -just interesting to see!

[Cynder]

9 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I do know the artist's life is not an easy one and I also love seeing how genetic it is in families -just interesting to see!

I have wondered where my creativity even came from.  My parents were not creative people at all and sports ruled in my house.  All my siblings played sports in high school and my Mom was all about being a sports Mom.  She coached little league, she was in the booster club.  She helped with all the fundraisers, etc.  She also used to go on these passionate rants about how all art classes should be done away with in schools so that more money can be spent on sports, etc.  She just didn't like creative people.

Oddly enough though, my Mom was present when I sold my first original painting and she started to cry.  It was just a coincidence, too.  It was at one of the two festivals I do here in my own city.  My Mom's friend has a booth there every year and sometimes my Mom helps her.  Well she was there helping her friend and she stopped by my booth right as I was making this big sale.  It was awesome.  The timing was just perfect. 

My brother is a really creative person, also.  But he also was a jock.  He played varsity baseball.  And now not only is he an amazing musician but he also does a lot of metalsmithing and he's even getting into glass blowing. 

Neither of my parents were athletic either, though.  They didn't play sports in high school or anything.  So my siblings got lucky with their athletic talents and I got lucky with my creative talents I guess.