Is a diamond important to you?

[Cherylyn]

I'm the way I am because I grew up with nothing.  My late alcoholic, wife beater father never had a stable occupation to save his life.  My childhood home was in such shambles that I dare not invite my friends to play due to shame, embarrassment and humiliation. 

One night after my baby brother and I were asleep, my father left us without saying good-bye!  He paid nary a penny of child support so my mother worked 3 jobs 7 days a week while my abusive grandmother "took care" of us meaning she slept all day.  My brother went mad without a diaper change and milk as he was stuck in his sweaty crib all day.  When she was awake, she wasn't home for many hours with my brother in a stroller minus a diaper bag and bottles.  She walked very far and came home so late.  I was locked out of the house without dinner and there I was sitting on the front porch at 9PM at night!  It was cold.  She finally came home and when I snitched to my mother, my grandmother beat me.  My mother sent my grandmother packing.

We bought our clothes from a used clothing store.  I often went without lunch at school.  I was a scrawny, disheveled child.  My mother drove a jalopy which was so embarrassing that I didn't want my neighbors and friends to see me in it.  😔

When my parents separated, I was sent up north to spend several weeks with my cousin and her family.  They were broke as a joke.  My uncle bathed first, next my aunt, then my cousin and lastly I bathed in everyone's dirt.  They did this to save gas and water.  Their tiny apartment was freezing cold because they never turned on the heat!  🥶 

Then my father moved back home because one mortgage was cheaper than paying rent for him and mortgage for my mother.  Then all hell broke loose all over again.  We were in horrible debt.  It's $450K in today's money.  Miraculously, my mother paid it all back and never filed for bankruptcy.    She raised three children all by herself without help from anyone.  She still resides in my childhood house. 

I worked full time night shift while enrolled in school by day.  Then I switched to my day shift job, toiled and ascended in my career.  Fast forward.   I met my husband and we have two great sons.  So yes, my engagement ring, our wedding bands, cars, moving up several houses over the course of years, residing in my manicured neighborhood and enjoying a comfortable life is important to me and us.  We aren't in debt, pay our bills on time, save money every month, live well and it's the life I had always wanted very BADLY.  I like bags, clothes, shoes, nice wristwatches (not Rolex!), visits to the hair salon and making up for my painfully lost childhood.  Better late than never.

Different strokes for different folks.  😊

[mylolita]

35 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

I'm the way I am because I grew up with nothing.  My late alcoholic, wife beater father never had a stable occupation to save his life.  My childhood home was in such shambles that I dare not invite my friends to play due to shame, embarrassment and humiliation. 

One night after my baby brother and I were asleep, my father left us without saying good-bye!  He paid nary a penny of child support so my mother worked 3 jobs 7 days a week while my abusive grandmother "took care" of us meaning she slept all day.  My brother went mad without a diaper change and milk as he was stuck in his sweaty crib all day.  When she was awake, she wasn't home for many hours with my brother in a stroller minus a diaper bag and bottles.  She walked very far and came home so late.  I was locked out of the house without dinner and there I was sitting on the front porch at 9PM at night!  It was cold.  She finally came home and when I snitched to my mother, my grandmother beat me.  My mother sent my grandmother packing.

We bought our clothes from a used clothing store.  I often went without lunch at school.  I was a scrawny, disheveled child.  My mother drove a jalopy which was so embarrassing that I didn't want my neighbors and friends to see me in it.  😔

When my parents separated, I was sent up north to spend several weeks with my cousin and her family.  They were broke as a joke.  My uncle bathed first, next my aunt, then my cousin and lastly I bathed in everyone's dirt.  They did this to save gas and water.  Their tiny apartment was freezing cold because they never turned on the heat!  🥶 

Then my father moved back home because one mortgage was cheaper than paying rent for him and mortgage for my mother.  Then all hell broke loose all over again.  We were in horrible debt.  It's $450K in today's money.  Miraculously, my mother paid it all back and never filed for bankruptcy.    She raised three children all by herself without help from anyone.  She still resides in my childhood house. 

I worked full time night shift while enrolled in school by day.  Then I switched to my day shift job, toiled and ascended in my career.  Fast forward.   I met my husband and we have two great sons.  So yes, my engagement ring, our wedding bands, cars, moving up several houses over the course of years, residing in my manicured neighborhood and enjoying a comfortable life is important to me and us.  We aren't in debt, pay our bills on time, save money every month, live well and it's the life I had always wanted very BADLY.  I like bags, clothes, shoes, nice wristwatches (not Rolex!), visits to the hair salon and making up for my painfully lost childhood.  Better late than never.

Different strokes for different folks.  😊

This is, Cherylyn, one heck of a terrible but turns good story! Oh my goodness! You have really been through it!

 

This is the thing! You see women who obviously like fine things, they wear them and display them and some people presume, even me - ohhh, pampered pooch, no real concerns. Everyone has a story, yours is heartbreaking! I am so glad you had the strength, and your mother did, to see you through the other side.

 

Now I can see why you enjoy your things and also, went for your husband (going off how you describe him), as, your example of what a man is from your father was disgraceful. 
 

Kudos, and definitely each to their own.

 

And I was going to bow out of this thread! Ha! Well, I just felt the biggest urge to apologise to you for silently creating a false impression in my head from your posts. 

 

x

[Cherylyn]

36 minutes ago, mylolita said:

This is, Cherylyn, one heck of a terrible but turns good story! Oh my goodness! You have really been through it!

 

This is the thing! You see women who obviously like fine things, they wear them and display them and some people presume, even me - ohhh, pampered pooch, no real concerns. Everyone has a story, yours is heartbreaking! I am so glad you had the strength, and your mother did, to see you through the other side.

 

Now I can see why you enjoy your things and also, went for your husband (going off how you describe him), as, your example of what a man is from your father was disgraceful. 
 

Kudos, and definitely each to their own.

 

And I was going to bow out of this thread! Ha! Well, I just felt the biggest urge to apologise to you for silently creating a false impression in my head from your posts. 

 

x

Thank you very much @mylolita.  I appreciated everything you wrote.  🥰

It just goes to show you that whenever we walk around in public, we don't know other people's horrible pasts.  Many people are haunted by their past. 

"Happily ever afters" are ideal.  I never take my blessings for granted because I've already lived and breathed misery and deprivation. 

My husband hails from a mom 'n pop 'n apple pie background.  He grew up in a blissfully happy, stable, solid, settled, loving, nurturing home life with his parents and siblings.  I was so envious! 

Thank you.  No need to apologize.  We don't always know everyone's painful background stories.  Most people carry their burdens to their grave and harbor their own private, very personal pain. 

I agree, my late father was a tyrant.  Even though life was very hard post death, it was a relief when he died.  Despite financial struggles and hardship for my mother and me, at least we could live in a peaceful household.  🙏

[mylolita]

6 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

Thank you very much @mylolita.  I appreciated everything you wrote.  🥰

It just goes to show you that whenever we walk around in public, we don't know other people's horrible pasts.  Many people are haunted by their past. 

"Happily ever afters" are ideal.  I never take my blessings for granted because I've already lived and breathed misery and deprivation. 

My husband hails from a mom 'n pop 'n apple pie background.  He grew up in a blissfully happy, stable, solid, settled, loving, nurturing home life with his parents and siblings.  I was so envious! 

Thank you.  No need to apologize.  We don't always know everyone's painful background stories.  Most people carry their burdens to their grave and harbor their own private, very personal pain. 

I agree, my late father was a tyrant.  Even though life was very hard post death, it was a relief when he died.  Despite financial struggles and hardship for my mother and me, at least we could live in a peaceful household.  🙏

You are very strong, and deserve a crown, let alone a ring!

 

I wish you the best and to enjoy everyday in peace love and comfort till the rest of Cherylyn!

 

x

[Cherylyn]

Just now, mylolita said:

You are very strong, and deserve a crown, let alone a ring!

 

I wish you the best and to enjoy everyday in peace love and comfort till the rest of Cherylyn!

 

x

Likewise and best to you @mylolita.  Thank you for your very appreciated kind words!

[mylolita]

Just now, Cherylyn said:

Likewise and best to you @mylolita.  Thank you for your very appreciated kind words!

No problem, my pleasure!
 

When I’m wrong, I’m wrong x 

[LikeWater]

17 hours ago, mylolita said:

Well Water! 🤣 I apologise I don’t know how big of a celebrity you are within ENA! 😉😘

 

When did you say you joined again? And if this is drama darling, you need to push the boat out! You are slacking in your old age! 😉🤣

 

I have heard the unethical argument for modern diamonds! African slave labour and chemicals used is it? I know absolutely nothing about it so in all honesty Water, I would love you to tell me more! I really know nothing about it and it is definitely not the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear the word diamond!

 

And you are not speaking fondly of the institution of marriage! This is always very interesting and curious too me! Although I am a traditional kinda girl, I love to hear the alternative! So in a totally genuine way, if you want to give your side of it - please do! I would love to hear! 
 

And yes! They have! Maybe it’s the reflective sparkle? Maybe once it was the hardest to get and most precious? I’m just guessing! Something gains popularity and fashion and that’s it it seems! We have it forever in the psyche! Diamonds are without a doubt aspirational. Like a luxury car or a home in a great affluent area, people do aspire to diamonds. Diamond encrusted makes us think - oooo! Okay now you’re not playin’! Ha! 
 

Well! Because mine is antique I think I have passed the ethical test without knowing it 🤓 Hopefully 🤣🤣 I don’t wear any other jewellery! I like a nice watch! Nothing insane though, we aren’t talking Rolex’s (although the vintage market for older Rolex watches has gone through the roof I see in the jewellery section at auction houses!). Not bothered about bags. I like a nice belt. I’m a sucker for knitwear actually, nerdy and strange as that is. If my husband wants to impress me with something special, a cashmere sweater is perfect! That or, he always gets me my favourite potpourri which is Santa Maria Novella. I love their perfume as well. 
 

But y’know, for Christmas and things like that, we spend £50 on each other max. The rest is on the kids. My engagement ring was £250, the slimmest gold band with a single solitaire diamond. I’ll never take it off until the day I die, It’s not about showy things. The hubby bought me a car once when I passed my test, it was a really nice one for a first car. But that was a spur of the moment thing, not an anniversary or Birthday. He has got me some of the most “extravagant” things at random, never on actual set occasions when you would expect to get presents! But, people talk of love languages and gifts aren’t actually my scene. I love getting flowers though! He will just leave a bouquet of flowers on the hall table for me a couple of times a month. That’s his style, there is no, here you are darling! Or the kids come trotting you after being out with him and they are holding an box of chocolates that he has gone and got for me with them! Just the little things.

 

All women are different. But honestly, I never thought about how jewellery is made or diamonds mined! My friend, her father owned a gold mine in Jamaica, until he sold up and moved to America. He has passed now but, I am good friends with his daughter who is actually 67 now! I’m 32 so we make a good pair I think! 
 

What would you think if a woman surprised you with… a fancy car? Or a fancy watch? 
 

x

The unethical part is most diamonds come from African countries where the workers are basically slaves.  They are all day sifting through the ground to find diamonds for usually a tyrannical figure who will sell them through shady means to a middle man, who then sells them to companies and such.  

I say "basically slavery" because it's akin to sweat shops.  The workers are working tirelessly to get a rock and basically the more rocks you get, you get enough currency to feed your family.  Pretty much it.  But they're also hardcore monitered by armed men making sure they don't keep a diamond.  To keep everyone in line, any who do try to slip one for themselves is executed as an example to the others.

It's close to the moral realm of if you know your cell phone came at the cost of a child working themselves to death, do you care?

[jul-els]

Iconoclasm means nothing to me, so no. Efficient way to find who I’m incompatible with, imo. 

[catfeeder]

1 hour ago, LikeWater said:

The unethical part is most diamonds come from African countries where the workers are basically slaves.  

In many cases the 'workers' are young children who will remain in this hell for the rest of their short and painful lives. 

[LikeWater]

32 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

In many cases the 'workers' are young children who will remain in this hell for the rest of their short and painful lives. 

Yep exactly.

[boltnrun]

54 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

In many cases the 'workers' are young children who will remain in this hell for the rest of their short and painful lives. 

For a rock! Literally for a rock. Sure, it's a shiny rock but it's still just a rock.

[Seraphim]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_diamonds

There are also lab grown diamonds. 
 

You also see almost no natural sapphires, rubies or emeralds in stores anymore. The vast majority are lab grown and very easy to spot. 
 

Conflict diamonds are not the only choice anymore . 

[LikeWater]

11 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_diamonds

There are also lab grown diamonds. 
 

You also see almost no natural sapphires, rubies or emeralds in stores anymore. The vast majority are lab grown and very easy to spot. 
 

Conflict diamonds are not the only choice anymore . 

But the consumer buying the diamond doesn't care at all.  The woman receiving the giant rock engagement ring isn't thinking about any of this. And I'm not saying it's a problem because most people just don't know or don't care.  They want the item, end of story.

It's like veganism.  You either care or you just want some bacon.  Period.

[Seraphim]

10 minutes ago, LikeWater said:

But the consumer buying the diamond doesn't care at all.  The woman receiving the giant rock engagement ring isn't thinking about any of this. And I'm not saying it's a problem because most people just don't know or don't care.  They want the item, end of story.

It's like veganism.  You either care or you just want some bacon.  Period.

Ok, well , I am a woman and have taken notice. 🤷🏻‍♀️Natural stones are just much harder to come by and I can tell a natural stone from a lab stone in a heart beat. The colour of any lab stone is not the true colour. 
 

Here in Canada our own diamonds are advertised as such. 

[Seraphim]

My ring is a natural sapphire , my bracelet is a lab created. Totally different colours very easy to spot. 

[DarkCh0c0]

@CherylynI appreciate sharing your story. It's very inspiring 💚

[Cherylyn]

Some items are from tradition and to each his or her own.  I've noticed precious stone prices have since skyrocketed. 😮 I doubt we could afford the same rings my husband and I wear today.  Years ago, prices were much less expensive.  I was fortunate to have a jeweler friend give us everything at wholesale plus huge discounts.  We bought our diamonds and settings separately which saved us money. 

It's the same with our houses.  We've moved up several times since our wedding day.  Real estate prices have skyrocketed and it would be very difficult to afford the house we're currently living in.  We're fortunate to have invested in real estate market when we did otherwise we would've had to resort to residing in less desirable counties and neighborhoods.  It would've been a longer commute to work had we lived faraway.  

[catfeeder]

1 hour ago, LikeWater said:

It's like veganism.  You either care or you just want some bacon.  Period.

Naaaah, not so black and white. I've been a plant based eater for years, but walk me by a good plate of bacon and I still want it...

But I DO care. During lockdown I watched meat plants force workers into dangerous conditions with no precautions, and I was sickened by the death numbers. While I hoped more people would boycott meat in protest, I'm also aware that this wasn't realistic.

My choices are internal and private. I don't promote them or prescribe for anyone else. 

[mylolita]

4 hours ago, LikeWater said:

The unethical part is most diamonds come from African countries where the workers are basically slaves.  They are all day sifting through the ground to find diamonds for usually a tyrannical figure who will sell them through shady means to a middle man, who then sells them to companies and such.  

I say "basically slavery" because it's akin to sweat shops.  The workers are working tirelessly to get a rock and basically the more rocks you get, you get enough currency to feed your family.  Pretty much it.  But they're also hardcore monitered by armed men making sure they don't keep a diamond.  To keep everyone in line, any who do try to slip one for themselves is executed as an example to the others.

It's close to the moral realm of if you know your cell phone came at the cost of a child working themselves to death, do you care?

This is obviously terrible. So many of our products seem to get to us this way - unethical happenings in China also are never great to hear.

 

I guess you can minimise your impact if it is something that you care about - you could source an independent, small make-up company or formulate your own naturally. You could not have a cell phone (I have a gut feeling it’s not just Apple who makes their phones this way but, I could be wrong). If you want to eat eggs and meat, get a friend who is a farmer who you know has free range environments, or have chickens and pigs yourself. But you can see how modern inconvenience dictates our choices. 
 

The question seems to be, if you go down the moral high route with products, you have to really do it with everything, or it is pick and choose and hypocritical. Do you own a smartphone? A laptop? Do you eat meat? Do you wear trainers? Most of these are also made in sweatshops. T-shirts, most of them also in sweatshops, unless you buy high end or local and independent. Do you take medication or vaccines? All of it has been tested on animals. We can add modern diamonds to the list. You could also say, do you often travel? By air? And cite environmental impact. Do you buy modern, fast furniture? We are cutting down the rainforests at an alarming rate.

 

I guess these things are all in peoples psyche, or they are semi-aware like me, even if they don’t know the exact ins and outs. 
 

I am not trying to convert anyone, but this is an argument for antique or second hand. Antique furniture - no more trees are being cut down to produce the stuff. Antique diamonds - no modern slave labour because however they were mined has been and gone and can’t be undone but nothing is being perpetuated by their re-sale. Vintage clothing and shoes - made better and again, no use of sweatshops or, no large factories are dumping chemicals to make material into ecosystems. Even old buildings as houses - built better and, needing no new materials unless repair. Very limited environmental impact because nothing new is needing to be created. 
 

My husband (okay sorry to bring this back to him but he deals in antique and antique natural history, and fossils, etc) has an example within his work. A few years ago vegans lobbied British Parliament to say they wanted all ivory banned. It is illegal to own new ivory, but they wanted antique ivory banned. We had a friend who went to Parliament to speak against the motion. One of his arguments was, if you are to halt all antique ivory sales, with the view to confiscating or destroying, then you will have to round up all pianos pre 1920s for their ivory keys, and have them thrown in a fire too!

 

It was pushed out because, I think we can all see - history is history. To destroy it is pointless. But you can go forward and put your effort into changing the now, not the past. 
 

I think most people, when given the choice, will try to buy ethically. Free range meat and eggs, they will try to buy clothes from local independents, or avoid all their wardrobe being fast fashion. But it is a rare person who can say everything they own, they look into the ethics of the creation of that product. I am trying to say, you start on one thing, and you really have to look at the rest. I am not saying don’t, or it is not noble to question, but you can’t criticise one without criticising the whole! In my opinion.

 

x
 

 

[Wiseman2]

22 hours ago, LikeWater said:

, my girl should know by that point that I'm not materialistic and I'd view it as a huge waste of money.  

Is this the conflict? If so you may not be compatible. There's really no right or wrong with regard to traditions and symbolism, despite the politically correct asides.

If you view gifts of value as a "waste of money", that is fine. I personally can't stand surprise parties or birthday parties.

However being on the same page as far as economics, love languages etc is important. For example you may think giving someone a t-shirt for Christmas is just super, but if deep down she feels hurt, then it's an issue.

The key is emotional intelligence and that means understanding the feelings of others whether we agree with it or not.

Even if 9 out of 10 people on whatever survey say it means nothing, if the one your with is crushed because it means something to Them, then it's an issue. 

I'm not sure how many women would (if being honest) be happy to open a box upon a proposal and see a gumball machine ring.

In fact there was just a thread about someone who kept pulling stunts about proposals that were rather hurtful and unfunny to the GF.

There are super frugal types who find each other. But if one person values certain things and the other uses old newspapers to save on toilet paper, then there's an issue.

 

[mylolita]

13 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Is this the conflict? If so you may not be compatible. There's really no right or wrong with regard to traditions and symbolism, despite the politically correct asides.

If you view gifts of value as a "waste of money", that is fine. I personally can't stand surprise parties or birthday parties.

However being on the same page as far as economics, love languages etc is important. For example you may think giving someone a t-shirt for Christmas is just super, but if deep down she feels hurt, then it's an issue.

The key is emotional intelligence and that mean understanding the feelings of others whether we agree with it or not.

Even if 9 out of 10 people on whatever survey say it means nothing, if the one your with is crushed because it means something to Them, then it's an issue. 

I'm not sure how many women would (if being honest) be happy to open a box upon a proposal and see a gumball machine ring.

In fact there was just a thread about someone who kept pulling stunts about proposals that were rather unfunny to the GF.

I agree - diamonds are a safe bet. If you wanted to propose to a woman (not that you do!) then, a diamond engagement ring is going to tick the box for the majority of women.

 

x

[mylolita]

2 hours ago, Seraphim said:

My ring is a natural sapphire , my bracelet is a lab created. Totally different colours very easy to spot. 

Liking these pictures of family jewellery Seraphim!!! 
 

x

[LikeWater]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

Is this the conflict? If so you may not be compatible. There's really no right or wrong with regard to traditions and symbolism, despite the politically correct asides.

If you view gifts of value as a "waste of money", that is fine. I personally can't stand surprise parties or birthday parties.

However being on the same page as far as economics, love languages etc is important. For example you may think giving someone a t-shirt for Christmas is just super, but if deep down she feels hurt, then it's an issue.

The key is emotional intelligence and that means understanding the feelings of others whether we agree with it or not.

Even if 9 out of 10 people on whatever survey say it means nothing, if the one your with is crushed because it means something to Them, then it's an issue. 

I'm not sure how many women would (if being honest) be happy to open a box upon a proposal and see a gumball machine ring.

In fact there was just a thread about someone who kept pulling stunts about proposals that were rather hurtful and unfunny to the GF.

There are super frugal types who find each other. But if one person values certain things and the other uses old newspapers to save on toilet paper, then there's an issue.

 

Oops, didn't make this clear.  I'm single, the girl was hypothetical.  Also, not at all what this topic is about so keep that in mind as well

[LikeWater]

1 hour ago, mylolita said:

This is obviously terrible. So many of our products seem to get to us this way - unethical happenings in China also are never great to hear.

 

I guess you can minimise your impact if it is something that you care about - you could source an independent, small make-up company or formulate your own naturally. You could not have a cell phone (I have a gut feeling it’s not just Apple who makes their phones this way but, I could be wrong). If you want to eat eggs and meat, get a friend who is a farmer who you know has free range environments, or have chickens and pigs yourself. But you can see how modern inconvenience dictates our choices. 
 

The question seems to be, if you go down the moral high route with products, you have to really do it with everything, or it is pick and choose and hypocritical. Do you own a smartphone? A laptop? Do you eat meat? Do you wear trainers? Most of these are also made in sweatshops. T-shirts, most of them also in sweatshops, unless you buy high end or local and independent. Do you take medication or vaccines? All of it has been tested on animals. We can add modern diamonds to the list. You could also say, do you often travel? By air? And cite environmental impact. Do you buy modern, fast furniture? We are cutting down the rainforests at an alarming rate.

 

I guess these things are all in peoples psyche, or they are semi-aware like me, even if they don’t know the exact ins and outs. 
 

I am not trying to convert anyone, but this is an argument for antique or second hand. Antique furniture - no more trees are being cut down to produce the stuff. Antique diamonds - no modern slave labour because however they were mined has been and gone and can’t be undone but nothing is being perpetuated by their re-sale. Vintage clothing and shoes - made better and again, no use of sweatshops or, no large factories are dumping chemicals to make material into ecosystems. Even old buildings as houses - built better and, needing no new materials unless repair. Very limited environmental impact because nothing new is needing to be created. 
 

My husband (okay sorry to bring this back to him but he deals in antique and antique natural history, and fossils, etc) has an example within his work. A few years ago vegans lobbied British Parliament to say they wanted all ivory banned. It is illegal to own new ivory, but they wanted antique ivory banned. We had a friend who went to Parliament to speak against the motion. One of his arguments was, if you are to halt all antique ivory sales, with the view to confiscating or destroying, then you will have to round up all pianos pre 1920s for their ivory keys, and have them thrown in a fire too!

 

It was pushed out because, I think we can all see - history is history. To destroy it is pointless. But you can go forward and put your effort into changing the now, not the past. 
 

I think most people, when given the choice, will try to buy ethically. Free range meat and eggs, they will try to buy clothes from local independents, or avoid all their wardrobe being fast fashion. But it is a rare person who can say everything they own, they look into the ethics of the creation of that product. I am trying to say, you start on one thing, and you really have to look at the rest. I am not saying don’t, or it is not noble to question, but you can’t criticise one without criticising the whole! In my opinion.

 

x
 

 

Oh, I'm definitely hypocritical.  Funny enough I don't own a cell phone but for different reasons.  Also me: "So the pigs were raised in horrible conditions?  Where are my porkchops though?"  I didn't make this topic to start drama or to be like, "HA!  Gotcha."  Just was curious on people's thoughts.  You'll notice I haven't started an arugment through any of this, I want it to be open to all ideas.

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, LikeWater said:

 not at all what this topic is about so keep that in mind as well

What is it about then? You lost me because your title and opening post specifically mentions diamonds and marriage and gifts. Is it for the sole purpose of debating and controversy?  Is it under "crowd wisdom" because threads solely for debating and politics are discouraged?