How do I stop feeling jealous and angry towards couples?

[metalfantom]

2 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Right -negative generalizations are safer for you.  Why not make a different choice.  You are dead wrong.  I highly recommend volunteering backstage at a community theater -I've seen so many friendships, relationships, marriages flourish from that experience even though I never personaly did it.  When I needed to meet people I was out there being proactive.  Volunteer work, singles activities, going to events at my place of worship, meeting people at work and through work, setting people up on dates-having them reciprocate. 

Because when you have social anxiety and low self-esteem as bad as I do, every unsuccessful social experience just reinforces what a reject you are.

[catfeeder]

47 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Do you want suggestions? Do you want help? Do you want to make changes?

...all will require some effort.

Quote

Or do you just want people to respond and give you attention?

...that you can negate.

[metalfantom]

56 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

There was a young man who used to post on another forum. He too didn't have a girlfriend and thought he was deformed (he had something wrong with his larynx that caused his voice to be high pitched and squeaky). He too asked for help and then proceeded to reject every single suggestion. He also had a 'poor loser me' narrative and mindset. He started multiple threads and got dozens of responses, but after rejecting all suggestions he would come back a few weeks later and repost the same topic. Over and over.

I finally asked him why. Why did he post requests for help and then reject all suggestions and then come back and post the same thing again? And he FINALLY admitted he didn't get any attention or human interaction in 'real' life so he went on forums knowing people would write nice, encouraging things and pay attention to him. Interestingly, after that admission he stopped posting. I presume he went to a different forum.

Do you want suggestions? Do you want help? Do you want to make changes? Or do you just want people to respond and give you attention?

I feel sorry for that guy. Having a squeaky voice is deemed unmasculine and will not endear him to many ladies. Hopefully he was able to get out of that rut and move on with his life. It's not easy, as I can personally attest to. 

When people feel helpless and cynical, it is difficult to embrace advice. I'm not saying I don't want or value the help people have offered, but I am naturally resistant and cautious. In a masochistic way, my self-loathing and despair is familiar and comfortable. I know where I am with this. It's partly the fear of stepping out of my comfort zone and having negative thought validated that holds me back. 

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, jul-els said:

By learning to love yourself more. When you have love, you attract love. When you have hate, reflected in the way you describe yourself in the above quote, you attract hate, or indifference at best. Love is not attracted to hate, but repelled by it. You possess greatness within you. You must learn to discover and embrace your own greatness. Then love will come to you. It starts from within and grows outward, affecting everything it comes into contact with, including itself. Your destiny is greatness. Own it.

I’m not of fan of “loving “ yourself unless loving means giving.

 Giving yourself opportunities.  Giving yourself actions that reflect good physical and mental health. Giving yourself tools that calm you down so you can regain perspective when fearful or anxious. Giving yourself learning and exposure to learning like reading a good book or going to a book club, going to a lecture on an interesting subject , doing a volunteer activity that forces you out of a self absorbed shell. 

Today I lost perspective because of sleep deprivation and stressful situations that cumulatively felt triggering. So I resorted to my 4-7-8 breathing. I chugged water instead of reaching for a cookie. I angry folded laundry to put my tension to a good cause. I spoke in a modulated calm tone to people who were unreliable in fixing our major appliance. I showed myself I was strong enough to withstand the temptation to lash out in some way. That’s self love.
Not the abstract repetition of positive affirmations —for example. Those help but not as much as showing love through actions and giving to yourself or others. Tough love is good. Show yourself you’re bigger than those silly cliches and nonsensical negative generalizations.  

[bluecastle]

13 minutes ago, metalfantom said:

It's partly the fear of stepping out of my comfort zone and having negative thought validated that holds me back. 

Try to find a very small step. Someone suggested volunteering, for example. That's about as low stakes as it gets: you go online, type in volunteering options, sign up, and you spend an afternoon at a soup kitchen or what have you. You chitchat with some people, have a day, see how you feel after. 

Such a step isn't about dating, finding love, or even actively trying to change your outlook on all that. It's just doing something different, and seeing if, who knows, you come away feeling a bit different in your own skin. If it's a "bust"? So be it: it's not a bust that's going to burst anything major. 

 

[boltnrun]

I used to work with a guy who had that disorder where he would randomly make snorting noises and his right arm would shoot out in front of him. Just out of nowhere. The first time I witnessed this I didn't know how to react so I just didn't. You think women didn't think that was weird? You don't think that's off-putting?

Later on I found out he has a wife and children.  And he kind of embraced his condition. He nicknamed himself "Twitch". He's a great guy. Good sense of humor. But I bet a LOT of women ignored or disregarded him because of his condition. It wasn't something he could hide.

Now, cue you telling me he's "an exception and not the rule"...

Instead of your knee jerk reaction to respond negatively, how about you don't this time? Try something like "Cool, glad that guy was able to find someone who accepts him. Maybe some of us aren't doomed after all". Just try it! It won't hurt, I promise lol.

[Tinydance]

4 hours ago, metalfantom said:

It's difficult to make friends at my age. And the problem with joining social groups is they have existing cliques. You can end up feeling more of a pariah than before you got there.

Have you actually tried?

[jul-els]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

I’m not of fan of “loving “ yourself unless loving means giving.

 Giving yourself opportunities.  Giving yourself actions that reflect good physical and mental health. Giving yourself tools that calm you down so you can regain perspective when fearful or anxious. Giving yourself learning and exposure to learning like reading a good book or going to a book club, going to a lecture on an interesting subject , doing a volunteer activity that forces you out of a self absorbed shell. 

Today I lost perspective because of sleep deprivation and stressful situations that cumulatively felt triggering. So I resorted to my 4-7-8 breathing. I chugged water instead of reaching for a cookie. I angry folded laundry to put my tension to a good cause. I spoke in a modulated calm tone to people who were unreliable in fixing our major appliance. I showed myself I was strong enough to withstand the temptation to lash out in some way. That’s self love.
Not the abstract repetition of positive affirmations —for example. Those help but not as much as showing love through actions and giving to yourself or others. Tough love is good. Show yourself you’re bigger than those silly cliches and nonsensical negative generalizations.  

That’s all good, but you miss the point I was making with my “abstract positive affirmation”. My point was he I think he would be better served by viewing himself through a more loving perspective as opposed to a self deprecating one. How he chooses to make those changes is something he has to decide for himself, assuming he does want to see them. It starts with the first step. 

[Tinydance]

5 hours ago, metalfantom said:

Do you know the difference? Physically attractive/charming men can suffer the knockbacks because they know sooner or later they'll score. It's a numbers game for them. Someone in my position could awkwardly approach 100 girls and maybe one or two might be friendly out of pity but my confidence would be long shot before I reach that tally. 

Come on, what self-respecting woman wants to date a physical and social freak? I wouldn't be surprised if there was something subconsciously that turns women off me. Maybe that evolutionary part of the brain senses that I have no genetic value, so they've already rejected me before I've said a word.

There's one flaw in your argument in my opinion and that's the fact that majority of men are not really attractive. Most things, including attractiveness are on a bell curve. So most people are in the middle of the curve, the median, or average person. Most people are average, some below average. And small number above average. If you think it's a piece of cake for every man then you're actually wrong. There's only a small number of guys who are hot, the others aren't. You've told yourself a story and you go out of your way to prove it so you don't have to take responsibility for your own life or behaviours.

[Andrina]

You have nothing to lose. Why not take some of the advice you've been given, even if you have no faith in the ideas? 

[Batya33]

30 minutes ago, jul-els said:

That’s all good, but you miss the point I was making with my “abstract positive affirmation”. My point was he I think he would be better served by viewing himself through a more loving perspective as opposed to a self deprecating one. How he chooses to make those changes is something he has to decide for himself, assuming he does want to see them. It starts with the first step. 

No we just disagree on the way to approach self love.  I didn't say you suggested positive affirmations.  Especially given his penchant for abstract negative generalizations I don't think the first step should be what you suggested. It's too vague and abstract IMHO given his mindset - basically a nonstarter.  To me it's about doing not viewing. Sometimes even faking till you make it.  For example I wasn't feeling the love this morning and I made myself do what I do every morning around 5am.  Work out.  That triggered the positive feelings. Getting on the treadmill was the first step.  I respect your perspective of course and that it works for you and others!

[Batya33]

24 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

There's one flaw in your argument in my opinion and that's the fact that majority of men are not really attractive. Most things, including attractiveness are on a bell curve. So most people are in the middle of the curve, the median, or average person. Most people are average, some below average. And small number above average. If you think it's a piece of cake for every man then you're actually wrong. There's only a small number of guys who are hot, the others aren't. You've told yourself a story and you go out of your way to prove it so you don't have to take responsibility for your own life or behaviours.

And there's not always an overlap between attractive physical features and the chemistry between 2 people.

[jul-els]

16 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

No we just disagree on the way to approach self love.  I didn't say you suggested positive affirmations.  Especially given his penchant for abstract negative generalizations I don't think the first step should be what you suggested. It's too vague and abstract IMHO given his mindset - basically a nonstarter.  To me it's about doing not viewing. Sometimes even faking till you make it.  For example I wasn't feeling the love this morning and I made myself do what I do every morning around 5am.  Work out.  That triggered the positive feelings. Getting on the treadmill was the first step.  I respect your perspective of course and that it works for you and others!

But I came here for an argument, lol. 😉 

[1a1a]

Late to the party and haven’t had a chance to read all the posts but from way up thread when you said you can’t stop yourself from having these thoughts. 
 

This is true. Don’t even try. What you can do, is observe that you are having the thought, and then direct your attention to to something else. Your breathing, the feel of your clothes on your skin, the sound of things happening around you, hold your hands up and close your eyes. With your eyes closed how do you know that they are still there? 
 

I’ve been seeing lately that it takes 90 seconds for the physical effects of a bad feeling to pass through the body. So you see that couple, you think that thought, you feel the feeling that comes with it. And if you can just pause there for 90 seconds, watching your breathing, asking yourself what can I perceive around me, that feeling will pass. 
 

The alternative is to think more about that thought, that’s like feeding a fire, your mind will stay focussed on the damn unfairness of it all, your body will stay amped up, you’ll stay miserable. 
 

co sign get the hell away from the manosphere. It’s an echo chamber that amplifies misery. 
 

https://gimletmedia.com/amp/shows/reply-all/76h59o 

[catfeeder]

3 hours ago, metalfantom said:

When people feel helpless and cynical, it is difficult to embrace advice. I'm not saying I don't want or value the help people have offered, but I am naturally resistant and cautious. In a masochistic way, my self-loathing and despair is familiar and comfortable. I know where I am with this. It's partly the fear of stepping out of my comfort zone and having negative thought validated that holds me back. 

This may be the most thoughtful stuff you've raised in terms of considering exactly what you're trying to accomplish here.

Resistance can be natural without being a knee-jerk reaction. 

How about saying to yourself, "I'll consider that..." and then think about it later. If you have questions or barriers you'd like to discuss, come back with that?

Taking some time to think and respond rather than insta-react might be helpful.

[poorlittlefish]

A few months back I briefly dated a guy who was tall and attractive. According your way of thinking that should be all that's required for a successful relationship. The guy was unbelievably negative. He sucked the joy out of every conversation, so I ended it. You are carrying the same attitude and are self-sabotaging your chances. You seem to want to wallow in misery rather than do anything about it. I think we're wasting our time trying to help. 

[Batya33]

15 hours ago, metalfantom said:

I feel sorry for that guy. Having a squeaky voice is deemed unmasculine and will not endear him to many ladies. Hopefully he was able to get out of that rut and move on with his life. It's not easy, as I can personally attest to. 

When people feel helpless and cynical, it is difficult to embrace advice. I'm not saying I don't want or value the help people have offered, but I am naturally resistant and cautious. In a masochistic way, my self-loathing and despair is familiar and comfortable. I know where I am with this. It's partly the fear of stepping out of my comfort zone and having negative thought validated that holds me back. 

I am impressed -FWIW by what you wrote and your self-insight and awareness. 

I got easily turned off when I dated by feminine/affected/squeaky voices - not so much "unmasculine" just distracting/irritating/off putting.  Honestly I think voice lessons can help that a lot- But I'm not sure how much of that can be controlled. 

One guy I dated for awhile who spoke in a very effeminate way (and yes I thought he might be gay) - dated hundreds of women through online dating sites (he said so) before meeting his wife in his 30s.  He's also a highly successful exec and always has been -no I don't think she married him for his money at all.   I set him up with a number of my friends and they too were put off by his voice/mannerisms. 

So it depends if it's just voice or other aspects. For example some people speak in a very affected way because it reflects their arrogance.  I'm a fan of monitoring ones own tone, word choice etc with the goal of making others feel comfortable in your presence -whether a friend, a customer service person, a romantic partner. Do you work on your social skills in any way?

Again your self-insight will help you a lot -it's a great initial step.

[boltnrun]

2 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I am impressed -FWIW by what you wrote and your self-insight and awareness. 

I got easily turned off when I dated by feminine/affected/squeaky voices - not so much "unmasculine" just distracting/irritating/off putting.  Honestly I think voice lessons can help that a lot- But I'm not sure how much of that can be controlled. 

One guy I dated for awhile who spoke in a very effeminate way (and yes I thought he might be gay) - dated hundreds of women through online dating sites (he said so) before meeting his wife in his 30s.  He's also a highly successful exec and always has been -no I don't think she married him for his money at all.   I set him up with a number of my friends and they too were put off by his voice/mannerisms. 

So it depends if it's just voice or other aspects. For example some people speak in a very affected way because it reflects their arrogance.  I'm a fan of monitoring ones own tone, word choice etc with the goal of making others feel comfortable in your presence -whether a friend, a customer service person, a romantic partner. Do you work on your social skills in any way?

Again your self-insight will help you a lot -it's a great initial step.

The man I wrote about didn't need to work on his tone and it wasn't an affectation and he wasn't "effeminate". He had a medical condition (I believe I stated he had something wrong with his larynx).

Just wanted to clarify.

[Fudgie]

Metal,

I think you've received some excellent advice so far. That said, I agree most with the idea of seeking out some therapy and going from there. Rule out underlying depression/anxiety which, BTW, would not be the sole reason for you feeling the way you do but if there is an underlying disorder there, it would certainly exacerbate things for you. Is something you're willing to consider? 

Look, I'm going to be frank - it's true that the statistics are skewed majorly in terms of singledom/looking for a partner. The numbers of single people in the US are the on the rise, for both men and women, however it's harder for men to get a match on dating apps (more men than women on the apps). There are a number of reasons for this and I won't really get into it because that's a soapbox for another day (or post). Dating apps these days focus on snap judgments based on appearances alone and the endless sea of matches for women creates the illusion of endless choice. Yes, many perfectly fine who may be good fits for these women are swiped left on. It sucks. 

I won't placate you with the whole tHeRE iS sOmEOnE fOr EvErYoNe. That's simply not true. Some people do end up alone. Many more (when I say many more, I mean MILLIONS of people, perhaps even the majority of people) spend their lives in serial monogamy, rotating in/out of ultimately disappointing relationships and even marriages, usually having a child or two with said partner(s). We as people are often plagued by numerous things, a combination of our Family Of Origin (FOO) issues, traumas through our lives, maladaptive coping mechanisms, cognitive distortions, etc. In the end, even the love that people may envision for themselves may be unrealistic (think Disney movies) and impossible to acheive because it doesn't truly exist.  "Lovers hold hands to numb the pain, gripping tightly to something that they will never own" -She Wants Revenge.

Now here comes to the crux of the issue. It's an upward hill to get where you want to go and it's going to be difficult, I won't lie. Success is not gauranteed if you do try so you have 2 choices: give up and wallow/settle for the rare, drunken NSA sex or work on yourself (read: therapy first, then go from there) to get yourself into a better place and mindset, not just to snag a relationship but for your own wellbeing and overall happiess. I can't imagine how unhappy you must feel seeing those couples and being "wingman" for your friend and watching him have success.

I can tell you, as a woman, even when I was younger (I'm talking late teens/early 20s, I'm in my 30s now), I could always, always tell when men were downtrodden and negative to a deep degree. It goes much deeper than simply "mood". Anyone can have a bad mood. It's something deeper and for me, it was a major turn-off. I could sense it both in person and online.

I think the self-insight is a great start. I mean it, keep running with it. Yes, it is hard to take in advice when you're feeling crummy and awful about yourself to such a degree. I imagine it may feel paralyzing and hopeless. That's why I think proper therapy is in order so you can start breaking down some of these cognitive barriers and get to a better mentally healthy state. I'm not saying therapy will make you magically happy (it won't, and it shouldn't, unless your therapist is giving you some pretty fun drugs which would be highly unethical/illegal) but it will get you to a better place so then you can go from there. 

 

[reinventmyself]

22 hours ago, metalfantom said:

 

Come on, what self-respecting woman wants to date a physical and social freak? I wouldn't be surprised if there was something subconsciously that turns women off me. Maybe that evolutionary part of the brain senses that I have no genetic value, so they've already rejected me before I've said a word.

This I agree with.  I am very sensitive the vibes someone gives off.  It takes only minutes of merely standing next to you.  No doubt I would pick up on your bitterness and negativity, which yes, I would find it unattractive.

So, you can't change the deformity you speak of.  But that is only a small part of you.  You can work on and change the rest.  Especially the lens in which you view things.  

 

[Batya33]

41 minutes ago, Fudgie said:

I can tell you, as a woman, even when I was younger (I'm talking late teens/early 20s, I'm in my 30s now), I could always, always tell when men were downtrodden and negative to a deep degree. It goes much deeper than simply "mood". Anyone can have a bad mood. It's something deeper and for me, it was a major turn-off. I could sense it both in person and online.

All of what Fudgie wrote is great.  I'm highlighting this because there were many men I declined to meet because I sensed this on the phone call.  Many others I declined to meet again after a first meet for the same reason.  I too could always tell.  I met around 100 men in person through online dating sites in my 30s, more prior to that via personal ads.

[boltnrun]

A friend of mine is a very, very good looking man. Like, if I posted a pic many of the ladies here would say "wow!" He also comes from an extremely wealthy family so his life should be a slam dunk, right? But it's not. He's one of the most unhappy people I know for a number of reasons. He gives off such a negative vibe too. He's lost almost all of his friends because he's so very difficult to be around.

I also know a lot of physically UNattractive people who are so fun, so smart and so positive that you don't even notice their looks. They have dozens of friends because people want to be around them.

I agree that working with a therapist to let out all that rage and negativity is a great idea. No, I did not say it would be "easy". It'll take a lot of commitment and determination. But the alternative is to spend the next 60 years angry and miserable.

[Fudgie]

There's a ton of anecdotal evidence in both directions for sure. My last ex was not conventionally at all attractive (he's actually obese, although less so now than before) and he has never had issues dating. He's really smart, funny, good personality, etc. Met me within a short time of online dating (no, not the swiping app) and he met his current girlfriend within a similar timeframe. She's also really cool, not "bottom of the barrel" at all, I like her and consider her a friend as well. And no, he's not rich either. He has a lot of good internal qualities and can show them off. 

The statistics are truly skewed and yes, I do think men have a harder time with dating these days in terms of just getting interest/getting a date in the first place. I know a lot of women are voluntarily single and maybe that skews it further. However, there are things you can do to help improve your chances.

I wish things were different for you, for everyone, but as Stephen King says, "wish in one hand, s__t in the other, see which one fills up first".

Your mental state is first priority, 100%. Let me tell you, when I meet a guy who oozes negativity towards women, it's a turn off and I'll tell you why: because it's an uphill battle. Instead of the guy approaching me like "Hi, I'd like to get to know you, I have cool things about me and you seem cool, so let's talk and have fun" it's more "Dating SUCKS, prove me wrong, can you prove me wrong? Or will you just be another case of confirmation bias?"

That's exhausting. 

 

[metalfantom]

Again, I'm not saying that physically attractive men are guaranteed successful relationships, I'm saying they'll have more opportunities than a socially awkward loser like me.

Also, just to comment on something a couple of you said: that you can sense men who are depressing, self-loathing etc. how come a lot of women don't use this sixth sense to avoid men who turn out abusive, violent, disloyal, etc.? I know the answer will be "these men are disarming on the surface". My response to that would be that men like this always give off red flags. It seems women choose to ignore them because the guy's superficially attractive.

[boltnrun]

3 minutes ago, metalfantom said:

how come a lot of women don't use this sixth sense to avoid men who turn out abusive, violent, disloyal, etc.?

Because those women themselves aren't mentally or emotionally healthy. They pay attention to the surface and want to believe the pretty words and romantic gestures. "Oh, he said it was love at first sight! He said he loves me already because I'm so amazing! He brought me flowers! He wants me to move in and said I can quit my job! He wants to take care of me!!!!" Healthy women would reject an approach like that. And abusers can easily spot vulnerable women. 

Doesn't have to be attractive men either. My father was not conventionally attractive but he was by all accounts extremely charming. My mother was a beauty queen and not stupid but she was very young and had romantic ideas so she fell for his charm, to her eternal regret.

Look, my friend group when I was younger was made up of all extremely beautiful young women. I was by far the plainest of the bunch. So of course the men tended to swarm around them. Usually there was one who didn't want to be part of the swarm and those were the ones who talked to me. I didn't rage or insist it was unfair or leave early in a huff. I figured I'd meet the right one eventually. And maybe that one would be the one who wasn't superficial or swayed by physical beauty. That's the one we should want, right?