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Wondering why some men lose all that exciting interest in you after sex.


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14 minutes ago, spinstermanquee said:

Yah that would be a guy to be respected.  That is high value.  He knew he could eat the sprinkles off the cake with impunity - but:  right answer is "no, I would ruin it for me, for her, for others to come."  What a good person.

But you know don't assume that he would desire sex in that situation - that's also an assumption I don't like -that people -men in particular -will be tempted by an offer of sex from an attractive woman he isn't in a relationship with/committed to.  Some will some won't.  I guess I've always had platonic male friends since forever and I treat men as individuals and wasn't jaded or bitter or cynical about men (except very very temporarily) even though I dated so many and dated for so many years -about 24 -before marrying.  

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On 3/17/2022 at 6:10 PM, waffle said:

I remember having this convo with one of my guy friends a few years back and he was like "hell, Waffle, we men WISH women would use us for sex!  That's our dream come true."

Definitely wasn’t my dream come true. Made me more mercenary about relationships overall after that; and I don’t like it one bit. I hold back on sex significantly longer now as a result, so not ideal.

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On 3/16/2022 at 5:15 AM, katmisj said:

I did have a feeling that after sleeping together he would be distant.

Your intuition told you what the outcome would be, you just choose to ignore it.

This guy was more interested in the chase and once he slept with you, all excitement for him was gone.

There are men out there that just enjoy the chase and conquest but once it's over, they move on.

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2 hours ago, SherrySher said:

Your intuition told you what the outcome would be, you just choose to ignore it.

This guy was more interested in the chase and once he slept with you, all excitement for him was gone.

There are men out there that just enjoy the chase and conquest but once it's over, they move on.

Yes there are people like that and that is why waiting -without playing a game -because you choose it as consistent with your values and goals - often can weed those people out.  You are focused on learning about a new person by having intercourse and if that is a benefit to you now you know the risks.

Years ago there was a Sex and The City episode- Carrie meets a guy in her therapist's waiting room.  They date a couple of times then have great sex.  She then asks him "why are you in therapy?" and he says with an awkward look next to her in bed "because every time I sleep with a woman the next morning I want to run away" (something like that).  Last date.

Edited by Batya33
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I can only speak for myself. Once I opted to get clear with my Self on what I'm looking for, I also got clear about how I will navigate sex and relationships going forward.

I will not sleep first, then ask questions later.

I know myself well enough to know that I bond when I'm sexual. This makes it doubly important for me to get to KNOW a man well enough to learn where he stands with me and where I want to stand with him--long before I'll allow an opportunity for sex to even come up.

Does this scale down my dating pool? Of course. That's the point. Given that I'm only looking for ONE 'right' match, it's simple to screen people out, or allow them to screen themselves out long BEFORE I'm invested enough to sleep with him.

I don't claim that this is the correct way for anyone else, it just works for me to leave the anxiety and questioning behind and enjoy my life, while dating--or not, according to my own private criteria.

Charmers are charming, but I can enjoy plenty of that without taking needless hits to my self esteem or my heart. Get clear about what you WANT, and then use forthright communication skills to screen out anyone who doesn't align with your vision.

Head high, we all learn by living.

Edited by catfeeder
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1 hour ago, catfeeder said:

I know myself well enough to know that I bond when I'm sexual. This makes it doubly important for me to get to KNOW a man well enough to learn where he stands with me and where I want to stand with him--long before I'll allow an opportunity for sex to even come up.

Does this scale down my dating pool? Of course. That's the point. Given that I'm only looking for ONE 'right' match, it's simple to screen people out, or allow them to screen themselves out long BEFORE I'm invested enough to sleep with him.

I don't claim that this is the correct way for anyone else, it just works for me to leave the anxiety and questioning behind and enjoy my life, while dating--or not, according to my own private criteria.

Yes I feel the same. But the OP believes that having intercourse with someone she just met is a really good way to get to know a lot of important stuff about him based on how he performs in bed.  I don't relate to that perspective at all but since she does, that's a benefit to her she would lose if she waited. So her belief and standard gave me pause as far as suggesting she wait.

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1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

Yes I feel the same. But the OP believes that having intercourse with someone she just met is a really good way to get to know a lot of important stuff about him based on how he performs in bed.  I don't relate to that perspective at all but since she does, that's a benefit to her she would lose if she waited. So her belief and standard gave me pause as far as suggesting she wait.

Okay, so the question becomes, what's the point in getting to know someone's sexual performance if there's nothing after that?

If it's just about sex, then there's no purpose to a question--the sex is sex, and that's that.

So if there's any question about wanting something more than that for one's Self, then the time to get clear about that is before the sex, not after. Otherwise, it's just a game of roulette--sex first, then see where you land, and figure out how to not feel lousy when you don't 'like' where you land.

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38 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

Okay, so the question becomes, what's the point in getting to know someone's sexual performance if there's nothing after that?

If it's just about sex, then there's no purpose to a question--the sex is sex, and that's that.

So if there's any question about wanting something more than that for one's Self, then the time to get clear about that is before the sex, not after. Otherwise, it's just a game of roulette--sex first, then see where you land, and figure out how to not feel lousy when you don't 'like' where you land.

So yes I agree but she seems to use it as a screening out technique -not their performance.  Like, I like to watch how a man treats wait staff or other customer service people, how he speaks of his parents, his colleagues, his secretary if he has one -she doesn't look at it as performance -she wrote that in her view if you have intercourse early on you'll learn a lot about the person's values -like if he is selfish in bed that first time, according to her he is a selfish person.  She uses intercourse like I use observing how he treats others for example.  

And I agree with you that it's not a good strategy because many people who have sex early on are doing so because it's fun and while they may be generally looking for something serious, if the sex is subpar (which it can be as the two people are strangers, might be awkward around each other, etc) then there's no foundation to say "well we already like/love each other so much so I'm hanging in there as this was just a one or a few times", so the person usually is history. 

From what she said I didn't get that she gets emotionally attached most often -maybe an ego bruise in this case as she imagined this strong connection with this person she barely knew - a connection that may genuinely be strong but based on what I call twinkie love like the snack cake-sweet, light, fluffy, yummy -with no substance. 

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14 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

So yes I agree but she seems to use it as a screening out technique -not their performance.  Like, I like to watch how a man treats wait staff or other customer service people, how he speaks of his parents, his colleagues, his secretary if he has one -she doesn't look at it as performance -she wrote that in her view if you have intercourse early on you'll learn a lot about the person's values -like if he is selfish in bed that first time, according to her he is a selfish person.  She uses intercourse like I use observing how he treats others for example.  

And I agree with you that it's not a good strategy because many people who have sex early on are doing so because it's fun and while they may be generally looking for something serious, if the sex is subpar (which it can be as the two people are strangers, might be awkward around each other, etc) then there's no foundation to say "well we already like/love each other so much so I'm hanging in there as this was just a one or a few times", so the person usually is history. 

From what she said I didn't get that she gets emotionally attached most often -maybe an ego bruise in this case as she imagined this strong connection with this person she barely knew - a connection that may genuinely be strong but based on what I call twinkie love like the snack cake-sweet, light, fluffy, yummy -with no substance. 

If what she's doing works well for her, then I guess there wouldn't be a question about why they lose interest after sex.

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2 hours ago, catfeeder said:

If what she's doing works well for her, then I guess there wouldn't be a question about why they lose interest after sex.

True although she described it as "exciting interest" so it sounds like she wants an interaction where he hotly pursues her and that level of and type of excitement persists after having sex when she barely knows him.  Want cake/eat it too.  The issue is sure many people have that level of excited interest especially if it involves having to chase - but in a potentially healthy relationship the continued excitement is not related to the chase but to getting to know each other.  

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OP, at the end of the day, if a man is into you and liked the sex, you will know. It will be obvious through his words and actions that he wants to keep you around and know you beyond your compatibility in bed.  He won't fade out as soon as sex happens.

And when he does? It was indeed just sex he was after.

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Ok wow this post is pumping! Haha I was quite busy during the weekend so I wasn't able to respond. I've read all the responses and it's opened my mind a lot. Here's a quickie on what happened: 

So on the day I made this post, later on he texted me if I wanted to hang out this Sunday. He then started making conversation, being all chatty. BUT, that was only until he sent me a random message and I didn't reply to him and posted an insta stories. I agreed on meeting up Sunday and he said he could also see me Saturday night after his work (he works until 11ish pm). I said I would probably be tired and to just leave it for Sunday. We chatted about random things for a bit and that was it. I honestly feel like I don't have the opportunity to get to know him better sometimes...

On Saturday night I was out with friends and texted him saying I could meet up with him after work, he texted back saying he was tired but would be keen for a movie at his house. I obviously turned it down and went home. Today he texts me saying his boss got covid and he won't be able to leave the house. I didn't reply for a few hours because I was kind of annoyed that he was canceling on me and that I don't really believe he's telling me the truth. After a while he wrote he's sorry and wished he could see me and would love to see me tomorrow (Monday). I was a bit annoyed but played it cool and said I hope he's feeling okay and that Monday would be good (it's both of our days off). I then said what time and he said around 6pm. Now look, this is a young person that is probably canceling with me to go out with his friends on Sunday night and then cuddling and sleeping with me on Monday when he's tired and there's nothing to do. Which, would be fine, if that's what I wanted as well. 

So one thing I know is, I want to have fun with this guy, because indeed, I do have fun with him. But I also know myself, after years of dating and weird experiences, that even though I might not have feelings for the guy (which I do in this case), I don't like the idea of having sex and not having a talk about where we stand. Even if it's just casual, I'd rather have it settled in the first month before choosing to continue or not. It makes me feel very used. Especially with the date we set tomorrow, I know we might just go for dinner and then have sex, which the sex is indeed great, it doesn't do it for me anymore... I want something deeper (no pun intended lol). 

I also know that a lot comes from my expectations, I didn't promise anything to him and neither did he, but I'd rather put aside the conspiracies and just look at how things are for now. And decide if I actually want to continue this or not, because it doesn't seem like it's leading to anything serious and I am not emotionally in a good place to have a FWB with a person I have some sort of feelings for. 

It is true that I can choose where I stay. I do have a thing for him, but I'm not gonna stay around if that doesn't meet my standards. I used to stick around and hope the person would act a certain way I wanted them to, I've realised now that it's not my responsibility to do that. People will act however they want... I just have to set boundaries and move on. 

I've decided to see him tomorrow, but I've also chosen that I won't be sleeping with him or having sex. I might jokingly tell him that I don't want to be just a fling and see what he says. Obviously he might eat into my mind and lie just to get laid but I've already made my mind that I won't be having sex with him. That will give me two answers: if he's cool and actually wants to see me again, he'll respect it and ask me out again. If not, he'll be annoyed/disinterested or will tell me that he doesn't want anything serious. Which is fair enough, but just not what I'm looking for, not with him, because I do know that it's a person I could potentially develop real hard feelings for. 

 

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You're all over the place, OP. 

You tell you him you don't feel like meeting up on Saturday night, but then get bent out of shape when you change your mind last-minute and don't get the response you want. Huh? 

11 minutes ago, katmisj said:

Now look, this is a young person that is probably canceling with me to go out with his friends on Sunday night and then cuddling and sleeping with me on Monday when he's tired and there's nothing to do

Here you go making assumptions again. You have no idea what he's got going on. 

13 minutes ago, katmisj said:

I might jokingly tell him that I don't want to be just a fling and see what he says.

Don't go this route. The "jokey" tone is transparent and he will know you're not joking. Be direct and clear and confident in your questions, so you don't need to dress them up as jokes. 

I think you are getting way ahead of yourself and letting your insecurity steer your ship. You get upset and decide he's lying and already think the worst of him. It's fine if you don't want to sleep with him again and don't want something casual, but girl. Chill. Chill way out. 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

You're all over the place, OP. 

You tell you him you don't feel like meeting up on Saturday night, but then get bent out of shape when you change your mind last-minute and don't get the response you want. Huh? 

Here you go making assumptions again. You have no idea what he's got going on. 

Don't go this route. The "jokey" tone is transparent and he will know you're not joking. Be direct and clear and confident in your questions, so you don't need to dress them up as jokes. 

I think you are getting way ahead of yourself and letting your insecurity steer your ship. You get upset and decide he's lying and already think the worst of him. It's fine if you don't want to sleep with him again and don't want something casual, but girl. Chill. Chill way out. 

I actually love these replies because it's like a cold bucket of water on me before I act like crazy. I actually come here but don't act out on him in any way because I know I can be a bit anxious and assume things and create scenarios in my head (which a lot turned out to be true and I struggle finding a middle ground).

And you're right about Saturday night, I texted him at 8pm and when he got out of work he was probably already in the mindset to go to bed so it's unfair of me to expect him to be all up and ready to go out for drinks or something. 

Also you are right, I do not know what he's up to today and won't assume. I did get a bit upset because I was all excited to see him but I think I've had so many bad experiences in the past that it's just "natural" for me to assume the worst. Even though it shouldn't be a rule. 

My ex boyfriend had no doubts he wanted to be with me. I felt very very very safe and confident with him and I still have those conflicting feelings inside of me. I don't necessarily want him back but I also do miss having that honest connection where even after sleeping with him he was there the next day, and the next and so on... It's hard for me to deal with people that are a bit.. quiet and inconsistent. It's hard for me to know if I should just invest in him or let go. So yeah, maybe I shouldn't ask him in a joking way but I'm also afraid of scaring him off, like "woah we're on our 5th date and you're already talking about relationship girl". And I'll just feel embarassed? I feel like it's a bit tricky for me to handle these situations without sounding like a crazy person

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27 minutes ago, katmisj said:

My ex boyfriend had no doubts he wanted to be with me. I felt very very very safe and confident with him and I still have those conflicting feelings inside of me.

How long ago did you break up and what was the breakup about? 

Reflect on the real reasons you feel undesirable. You seem to be striving for an insta-relationship, where you pick up a guy in a bar and you're back with a long term BF.

Go to a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health. Be honest about drinking or drug use. Discuss feelings of self-defeating behaviors.

Ask for a referral to a qualified therapist for ongoing support.

The security of a long term relationship and picking up randoms in bars are diametrically opposed.

Try dating men in a well paced getting-to-know-you type of way.

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5 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

How long ago did you break up and what was the breakup about? 

Reflect on the real reasons you feel undesirable. You seem to be striving for an insta-relationship, where you pick up a guy in a bar and you're back with a long term BF.

Go to a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health. Be honest about drinking or drug use. Discuss feelings of self-defeating behaviors.

Ask for a referral to a qualified therapist for ongoing support.

The security of a long term relationship and picking up randoms in bars are diametrically opposed.

Try dating men in a well paced getting-to-know-you type of way.

We broke up about a month or so I'd say. But we were on and off for quite a while already and the relationship wasn't great. We had a lot of different values and viewed things in life a bit different and also I'd say with time he started criticising a lot of my personality, how I dressed, what I eat etc and it got to a point where I noticed I was trying to shape myself for him to like me and when I met this guy I felt like myself again? It was a very weird moment. 

We also had a lot of arguments when we were together, a chat about politics would turn into a fight, a chat about racism would turn into an argument... we had a really bad communication, I'd say both of us because I also wasn't the greatest. But he no longer wanted to put the effort in by the end of the relationship and I wasn't already feeling alone because he always made excuses to not hang out with me and he became more and more cold and distant to the point where he wouldn't even touch me let alone give me a kiss. 

It's still hard and I'm not gonna lie I still think we're getting back together. We still chat every once in a while and I'm sure he cares about me but I'm also sure he doesn't want to get back together which is still something I'm trying to accept and also picturing him with someone else hurts because I know he wants a family and we wanted these same things in life and it's kind of hard to find someone who wants the same things.

So this guy in a way helped me "forget" my ex and made me feel a bit happy because I was honestly miserable and crying everyday for the past three months going on and off with my ex. Also meeting him in a bar made it kind of fun, as it was more organic than meeting guys through apps. But I do understand that a guy in a bar isn't essentially after a serious relationship, however I tend to think that sometimes you're not really looking but you meet someone and you just want to be with them? I've had a few relationships like that in my life. That's how I feel like this was going... like we didn't expect to get along so well, I was surprised.

I'm also on anti depressants now, have quit drinking and doing drugs and I've been eating better. My anxiety has gotten better and even processing thoughts have become clearer for me. But I still have these weird moments where I feel like I don't know how to act when dating? It's like any given scenario where I have feelings for the person, I feel insecure and anxious if the person doesn't make me feel safe. 

I want dating to be fun but I feel like if I don't have the talk of "where are we standing at", I can't properly relax and have a good time because I'm so afraid the person will just disappear the next day. (like it has happened before)

 

 

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Okay, but be careful. This guy sounds like a rebound. When you find yourself comparing the current person with your ex and saying "with my ex it wasn't like this", then he's a rebound.

When it's not a rebound, you look at the man as "is he what I need in a partner?". And because of recovering and healing from your ex, you would have reflected on and learned about your needs and what works or not in a relationship. 1 month is too soon to be in a new relationship. I'd say have fun, or give yourself a break. Breath. It's okay to be single for a while and explore why you stayed with your ex and what you actually need in your future partner.

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29 minutes ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Okay, but be careful. This guy sounds like a rebound. When you find yourself comparing the current person with your ex and saying "with my ex it wasn't like this", then he's a rebound.

When it's not a rebound, you look at the man as "is he what I need in a partner?". And because of recovering and healing from your ex, you would have reflected on and learned about your needs and what works or not in a relationship. 1 month is too soon to be in a new relationship. I'd say have fun, or give yourself a break. Breath. It's okay to be single for a while and explore why you stayed with your ex and what you actually need in your future partner.

I can't say 100% this guy is a rebound just yet. I went through a really long thoughtful process when I was on and off with my ex with things that I wanted and did not want in a relationship and I realised my ex filled a lot of those slots, but lacked a lot as well. Just as I knew I lacked a lot for him. And meeting this guy was like filling the things my partner lacked. But also, not filling things that I loved about my ex. People say age is just a number but going from a 33 year old to a 23 year old does make a lot of difference I'm not gonna lie. 

Just today we chatted (my ex) and he told me he went out his mates last night and he's staying in today and I believe him. It's like that, I don't feel like he's just making up things. This new guy on the other hand, I have no idea any time, he just disappears for hours sometimes doesn't talk to me the whole day... 

But yes, I'm still comparing, mostly because he's the first guy I've been with since I've been with my ex... 

I feel like I want to stay single but meeting this guy was so unexpected and I just felt this fun connection, you know when you just chat for hours and hours to no end? But I feel like I want to stop getting attached to people that easily.. When I'm not interested it's funny because nothing the person does attracts me, but when I am.... it's so hard to not overthink everything

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2 hours ago, katmisj said:

We broke up about a month or so I'd say. We still chat every once in a while 

Sorry this happened but you were right for ending things.

Don't try to be friends. Delete and block him and all his people from ALL your social media and messaging apps.

Move forward in peace.

You were grossly incompatible on every level from bickering about politics to character assassinations to huge differences in goals values personality etc.

See a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health.

It's extremely strange that you want this much conflict and chaos in your life.

Find out what your anger and anxiety and depression are all about. Improve your physical and mental health by getting fit, better nutrition, cutting out bad habits and too much drinking etc.

Most of all, ongoing therapy with a qualified therapist can help you replace self-defeating and self-destructive thoughts and behaviors with productive and rewarding thoughts and behaviors.

This isn't really about the ex BF or the kid you picked up in the club. This is about a lot of untreated unresolved issues.

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34 minutes ago, katmisj said:

And meeting this guy was like filling the things my partner lacked. But also, not filling things that I loved about my ex.

That definitely shows that he's a rebound.

You need to be by yourself to figure out what worked, what didn't, and what YOU need in a partner. Without comparisons, without the recent baggage, and with a more level headed approach.

Have fun, and take time for yourself. Maybe distance yourself from your ex so you can move on?

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I feel like growing up in a dysfunctional family, this shaped how I had my relationships during my whole life. I learned in therapy that I have fear of abandonment, because I always longed for the love I never had in my household. I had a narcissistic mom and my dad, who is a sweetheart, wouldn't intervene and she would abuse me psychologically and physically. 

I really hate the fact that this turned into years of toxic relationships and I sometimes wonder how my life would be like if I had grown up in a loving family. But I also know it's my responsibility to look after myself and learn from the past and work on my personal issues.

When I was with this guy, it was like for a day or some hours, he'd make me forget about all my problems, all my heartaches and I just felt happy. And I haven't felt like this in a long time. I feel that way when I'm with friends as well, but with him it was intensified because of a romantic dynamic happening as well. I think I'm also "desperate" to forget my ex. We had such horrible conversations and we went through so much that I am happier without him but I miss him even as a friend. He's a person I know I can count on and the thought of never talking to him again just hurts me so much. Every time we talk he says things like "we need to do a lot of work on ourselves for us to work out together", and other phrases that give me the slightest hope we'll be back together. I remember grasping for the slightest chance to be with him and hoping we'd be ok and he'd always end up breaking up with me and I just feel so free now that we're already broken up and I don't have anything to lose anymore. I've noticed that when I focus on myself more and less on what he's doing, I gain self confidence, but also knowing that he's just a call away gives me that relief that we still have each other. I know I haven't gotten over him completely. 

I think my life drastically change since the beginning of this year where I set goals for myself to save money, study a lot and take better care of myself. I have been able to eat better but I still struggled a bit with alcohol, but after I got on anti depressants my anxiety has been better. I was seeing a therapist but I didn't connect with her as much, so I'm am in search for another one. 

Oh wow, I honestly didn't realize how talking about a random guy I met would bring out such big issues... I guess there's a lot of internal work to do 

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I'm sorry you're struggling with your mental health. It's not fair to use this guy to forget about your troubles.

I love the comment that you're all over the place and that you're getting in your own way.  Also what struck me was - you let this person be inside of you -you risked pregnancy, STDs, your emotional wellbeing -and you don't trust that he's telling you the truth about why he cancelled? How does that work? 

I also think you're going about this backwards - if you care about what someone's intentions are, then you're a person who I think should wait to have sex.  At least until you've gotten to know the person over a period of months, dating once or twice a week, you're exclusive, you see through his actions he is into you.  Not as a test or a waiting game -and you'll have to give up your penchant for testing what kind of person someone is by having intercourse- but because it's consistent with your values. Yes I often waited months, yes we were "sexual" and very romantic and affectionate and yes we had sleepovers before having intercourse - but we were both on the same page about it -we were both good with waiting -more than good -because we were on the same wavelength (and no we were not religious). 

When my ex fiancee and I reconnected after 7 years plus apart we waited a few months too -partly for accurate STD testing but mostly because although our intentions in getting back together was to see if we should get married this time we also wanted to be sure that we were doing the right thing.  We were sure in our hearts and wanted to get to know each other again after all that time apart.  It was the totally right decision. 

Our first time around dating when we were in our late 20s we waited about 5 months - even though during that time he took me to Paris for a week.  Etc.  We were glad we waited then too.  Our first time was good, and it only got better.  Because we knew each other, were in love and both had the same intentions about each other. We've been married 13 years.

If you want what you say you want having sex for fun likely isn't going to work.  And this guy is not an FWB  -didn't you just meet him? He's someone you had casual sex with and now you're not sure if he wants to continue meeting up for sex or wants to also get to know you and date you properly.  

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1 hour ago, katmisj said:

Every time we talk he says things like "we need to do a lot of work on ourselves for us to work out together",

This is not an indication that he may reconcile. It's an indication that you need to see a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health.

When he says "We need to work on..." he means "You need to work on..." just in a passive-aggressive way

 As an adult, there's only so long you can go on blaming parents, exbf's, etc. for all your troubles.

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OK, well this is just my opinion and I have read literally all the comments, by the way lol I understand you like this guy but to be honest I kinda think you need to relax. I think you were actually coming on a bit too strong with the talk about wanting to settle down and kids. I know that's what you want and you were just being honest, but you said this to this guy after only spending one weekend together. And you need to remember, he's 24, so settling down and kids is probably not really his main  priority right now. In Western society these days men only really start thinking about those things in their late 20's and 30's. I think you mentioned those things to him way too soon.

Secondly, you said you don't want to see him and not know "what you are", or something along those lines. He's met you only a few times so how can he already know "what you are"? Maybe he did like you and want to see you again but he's a young 24-year-old guy and you met him at a night club. He probably wasn't at that night club looking for his future wife, you know? I don't necessarily think he was just trying to use you for sex but he probably doesn't want to be pressured into something more serious so fast or to talk about having kids (even in general).

I think if you want to keep seeing him, you just need to go with the flow with it. Just enjoy his company, enjoy the conversations and great sex, etc. But take it easy and don't get too full-on. Otherwise I think you'd scare him away.

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