Boundary with Male Boss

[Fluffymomo]

11 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

There is no instigator.  He is not instigating. You're creating a fantasy in your head for some reason.  Figure out the reason as you seem to want to progress professionally.  Your overthinking will sabotage that if you begin acting out your overthinking and general negativity about "women" in the workplace. 

Clearly, I was referring to someone from my previous experience. And I think you are the one who has negativity towards woman and hold a much different standard for man. And no thanks, I don’t need advice from someone who can’t even communicate with her colleague if she finds cute features in them.  I think it’s time for you to do some self reflection. Why are you so insecure?

Edited February 26 by Fluffymomo

[Fluffymomo]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I see.  You just wanted validation that your shy awkward married boss must be hot for you because you are tracking when he calls you about work.  Hyperfocused so that shy and awkward must mean that he's into you because you're younger than his wife and you imagine yourself to be more attractive and interesting than she is.  You might end up "right" and going to HR but if you cry wolf too many times it's not going to be lonely at the top as they say because you're foregoing precious opportunities for mentorship, especially now when it's so hard to mentor virtually.

Why are you projecting yourself so much into his wife’s position? Is that from your past experience ? Where are all the comments that “I am younger and more attractive than his wife” coming from? Is that a response from your insecurity once again?? And the comment about going to HR.. Again, you are way too dramatic lady. I am asking advice of keeping a healthy boundary not reporting him to HR.. 

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, Fluffymomo said:

Clearly, I was referring to someone from my previous experience. And I think you are the one who has negativity towards woman and holds a much different standard for man. And no thanks, I don’t need advice from someone who can’t even communicate with her colleague if she finds cute features in them.  I think it’s time for you to do some self reflection. Why are you so insecure?

LOL I'm not sure what you're responding too!  I've had a wonderful professional life with both male and female mentors.  I've been harassed at work in the past.  Including sexually.  One of the reasons I've been so successful is because I've treated people as individuals, and I have confidence but also humility - I never assumed that a man was trying to be inappropriate or flirt with me - I defaulted to "we are all professionals/we are a team/we're here to work and contribute".  And with that mindset -which was realistic not pollyannish -I was able to play nicely in the sandbox from a business and corporate perspective. 

It meant that when I was out of the workforce in my 40s for 7 years raising my son I was able to return because I didn't burn bridges or look for problems or have some notion that a man must be into me because I was younger and attractive.  People helped me get my foot in the door, get interviews, get career advice -even though I'd never worked a day in my new city.  It really is so much of who you know and who you know will dwindle if you keep up your antics.

Get some balance, get over yourself and be a team player as much as you can.  IMHO.

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, Fluffymomo said:

Why are you projecting yourself so much into his wife’s position? Is that from your past experience ? Where are all the comments that “I am younger and more attractive than his wife” coming from? Is that a response from your insecurity once again?? And the comment about going to HR.. Again, you are way too dramatic lady. I am asking advice of keeping a healthy boundary not reporting him to HR.. 

I don't think you want advice.  You want to be validated and told you are right.  I don't think you are right. I'm bowing out.  No issue for me if you choose to sabotage your success. It's a shame though.  Good luck.

[Blue_Skirt]

20 minutes ago, Fluffymomo said:

Do you have two accounts here? That response was not towards you..

If you have read the forum rules, you know that it is not allowed to have multiple accounts. Yes, that response was towards me, because you quoted my response in your post.

[Fluffymomo]

3 minutes ago, Blue_Skirt said:

If you have read the forum rules, you know that it is not allowed to have multiple accounts. Yes, that response was towards me, because you quoted my response in your post.

Honestly don’t have time to read that. My bad . I was trying to reply to Wiseman that I think you quoted in the comments

[Fluffymomo]

13 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I don't think you want advice.  You want to be validated and told you are right.  I don't think you are right. I'm bowing out.  No issue for me if you choose to sabotage your success. It's a shame though.  Good luck.

I just don’t have space for BS

[kamurj]

4 minutes ago, Fluffymomo said:

Honestly don’t have time to read that. My bad . I was trying to reply to Wiseman that I think you quoted in the comments

Please do find time to read that if you are going to post here.

[Fluffymomo]

Just now, kamurj said:

Please do find time to read that if you are going to post here.

Did I violate any rules? Am I in trouble lol?

[kamurj]

Just now, Fluffymomo said:

Did I violate any rules? Am I in trouble lol?

It is important to read them to ensure the rules are understood and followed.

[boltnrun]

It seems you get some kind of enjoyment or validation from believing your bosses find you so very alluring and attractive.

Nothing you wrote indicates anything inappropriate.

All you need to do is do your job while you're at work.  If anyone you work with touches you, says something offensive or sexual, makes comments about your appearance, or suggests anything out of line such as traveling alone together or inviting you to their home, then yes, reporting to HR is the correct thing to do.  But I didn't see that he did any of that.

I'm sure you will have a snarky response to this.  But there's definitely a strong possibility you get pleasure out of thinking your bosses want you.

[smackie9]

OK I'm not going to guess if he is or not or what he could be doing...I say from now on, you don't respond to phone calls, text messages or emails after work. That's just a start. Don't respond/talk about/answer to, to things that are personal, like random personal questions or emails that don't pertain to work. That's how you set boundaries. He will get the hint.

[Rose Mosse]

1 minute ago, smackie9 said:

OK I'm not going to guess if he is or not or what he could be doing...I say from now on, you don't respond to phone calls, text messages or emails after work. That's just a start. Don't respond/talk about/answer to, to things that are personal, like random personal questions or emails that don't pertain to work. That's how you set boundaries. He will get the hint.

Agree. 

Do not respond to any calls or emails outside of work hours. It’s good practice overall and look for businesses that don’t require you to especially if you value your work/life balance. 

 

[Rose Mosse]

1 hour ago, Fluffymomo said:

Wow talking about double standard here.. And No his behavior actually  has directly impact our work communication. We are all adults here and at the end of the day business is business. I will never avoid to someone or communicate with them because they have “ cute” feature.I think you sound really dramatic and as a matter of fact could probably use some professional help. Don’t see how I am going into a dangerous path if I am asking advice to keep a professional boundaries.

OP, just a quick note on the forum: only reply to the responses that resonate with you or add meaning or are within the context of your issue. 

Edited February 26 by Rose Mosse

[MissCanuck]

OP, just don't be so quick to respond to him when he's contacting you outside of your working hours. You aren't required to. 

That's all you need to do to draw a boundary. 

[Batya33]

5 hours ago, Rose Mosse said:

Agree. 

Do not respond to any calls or emails outside of work hours. It’s good practice overall and look for businesses that don’t require you to especially if you value your work/life balance. 

 

Yes for sure if she wants a 9 to 5 job.  At least where I live and have worked since 1994 those jobs do not pay well and very often have little opportunity for advancement.  Everywhere I worked from 1994-2009 expected everyone to respond to emails and calls except in very rare circumstances (like a vacation or for religious observance-although not always) that were urgent especially or involved any time sensitive situation.  We were compensated for that expectation for sure.  We were evaluated based on meeting those expectations for sure. We all worked nights and weekends and traveled at a moments' notice if needed for the company.  And if you didn't it was because you were part time or flex time and/or not on a promotion track.  Nothing wrong with that but that was the difference in track. 

Now I am part time and not at a big corporation so the expectations are far more lenient but I work on very time sensitive matters so I very often (like five minutes ago) respond to weekend emails.  Because I am part time and not paid the big $ anymore (by choice as I need that balance since I have a child at home and a husband who works more than full time) I can go off the grid on a vacation or for religious holidays, etc. and weekend emails are typically not expected.

There are many 9 to 5 jobs or jobs with specific shifts where of course your time is your own when you're done with your shift.  I had that sort of job from 1989-91.  The OP seems to be in a corporate environment where she wants to develop her skills and eventually be promoted and work her way up.  In that sort of environment IMHO it's hard to survive if you take a hard line about what "business hours" are and that you won't respond outside "business hours".  

[Rose Mosse]

24 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Yes for sure if she wants a 9 to 5 job.  At least where I live and have worked since 1994 those jobs do not pay well and very often have little opportunity for advancement.  Everywhere I worked from 1994-2009 expected everyone to respond to emails and calls except in very rare circumstances (like a vacation or for religious observance-although not always) that were urgent especially or involved any time sensitive situation.  We were compensated for that expectation for sure.  We were evaluated based on meeting those expectations for sure. We all worked nights and weekends and traveled at a moments' notice if needed for the company.  And if you didn't it was because you were part time or flex time and/or not on a promotion track.  Nothing wrong with that but that was the difference in track. 

Now I am part time and not at a big corporation so the expectations are far more lenient but I work on very time sensitive matters so I very often (like five minutes ago) respond to weekend emails.  Because I am part time and not paid the big $ anymore (by choice as I need that balance since I have a child at home and a husband who works more than full time) I can go off the grid on a vacation or for religious holidays, etc. and weekend emails are typically not expected.

There are many 9 to 5 jobs or jobs with specific shifts where of course your time is your own when you're done with your shift.  I had that sort of job from 1989-91.  The OP seems to be in a corporate environment where she wants to develop her skills and eventually be promoted and work her way up.  In that sort of environment IMHO it's hard to survive if you take a hard line about what "business hours" are and that you won't respond outside "business hours".  

Your employer is likely not her employer. It depends on what her company policies are and what the nature of her work is. As a general rule employees are usually not obligated at all to respond to calls or emails outside of business hours. As previously mentioned all she needs to do is stop. The topic is not about her advancing. It’s about how inappropriate those calls or emails are and how to create better boundaries.

Edited February 26 by Rose Mosse

[boltnrun]

I won't respond to calls, emails or texts outside of work hours.  And I was a manager at my previous job.  There are other people on the clock who can take care of any emergencies.  If that is the expectation, they can pay me for 24 hours of work.  If they're paying me for 40 hours a week (give or take a few hours), they don't get my evenings and weekends.  And I was paid very, very well and was on the track to be in Operations when I chose to leave the company for other reasons.

I didn't get the impression the OP is in Ops or is a VP or even a manager.  If the expectation is for her to be available after normal working hours she should report those hours as hours worked.

But I get the impression she's flattered by this imagined romantic interest from her boss.  It makes her feel desirable and alluring, even if it's not someone she's truly interested in pursuing or having a relationship with outside of work.  I mean, I used to like it when guys I didn't want to date liked me, but that's because I was young and didn't have the best self esteem so I craved validation that I was attractive.  I don't need that anymore.

[Batya33]

15 minutes ago, Rose Mosse said:

Your employer is likely not her employer. It depends on what her company policies are and what the nature of her work is. As a general rule employees are usually not obligated at all to respond to calls or emails outside of business hours. As previously mentioned all she needs to do is stop. The topic is not about her advancing. It’s about how inappropriate those calls or emails are and how to create better boundaries.

I've never ever heard of this general rule at all where I live and where I've worked in corporations with salaried employees (as opposed to hourly shift workers).  I've worked with many different corporations in a major city for decades as have many of my friends-countless and in several major US cities.  Maybe it's different in Europe -I would not know. 

It is about advancing.  The OP said she wants to and said her new boss is interested in her professional development and she is appreciative of that and wants that.  I do think she has to create better internal boundaries- i.e. be able to notice better when she is overthinking.  So far I see nothing he is doing that is inappropriate.  She need not respond to non-urgent emails outside of business hours and it's totally fine that he contacts her about professional matters whenever.

[Batya33]

8 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I won't respond to calls, emails or texts outside of work hours.  And I was a manager at my previous job.  There are other people on the clock who can take care of any emergencies.  If that is the expectation, they can pay me for 24 hours of work.  If they're paying me for 40 hours a week (give or take a few hours), they don't get my evenings and weekends.  And I was paid very, very well and was on the track to be in Operations when I chose to leave the company for other reasons.

I didn't get the impression the OP is in Ops or is a VP or even a manager.  If the expectation is for her to be available after normal working hours she should report those hours as hours worked.

But I get the impression she's flattered by this imagined romantic interest from her boss.  It makes her feel desirable and alluring, even if it's not someone she's truly interested in pursuing or having a relationship with outside of work.  I mean, I used to like it when guys I didn't want to date liked me, but that's because I was young and didn't have the best self esteem so I craved validation that I was attractive.  I don't need that anymore.

I agree totally with 40 hour a week 9 to 5 jobs if that is the sort of job it is.  I haven't had that sort of job since 1991.  I rarely worked in situations where there was someone else who was "on the clock" supposed to take care of my work when I was "off the clock" unless I was sick/on vacation/religious observance.  We were all on the clock basically as a general rule.  I could have taken a job where I wasn't but I loved the benefits of the interesting work, professional opportunities as well as the $.  As did almost everyone I knew in my industry.  We weren't paid for a 40 hour week. We were salaried employees with a certain job, responsibilities and title.  No overtime.  There were other employees who were administrative staff who absolutely were off the clock when their day was done (except very rarely - and you had to let them know in advance).  Non-admin - no such thing as 40 hour cap or overtime.  

With the OP she should not respond to non-urgent emails after or before business hours.  I agree.

Edited February 26 by Batya33

[boltnrun]

5 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I agree totally with 40 hour a week 9 to 5 jobs if that is the sort of job it is.  I haven't had that sort of job since 1991.  I rarely worked in situations where there was someone else who was "on the clock" supposed to take care of my work when I was "off the clock" unless I was sick/on vacation/religious observance.  We were all on the clock basically as a general rule.  I could have taken a job where I wasn't but I loved the benefits of the interesting work, professional opportunities as well as the $.  As did almost everyone I knew in my industry.  We weren't paid for a 40 hour week. We were salaried employees with a certain job, responsibilities and title.  No overtime.  There were other employees who were administrative staff who absolutely were off the clock when their day was done (except very rarely - and you had to let them know in advance).  Non-admin - no such thing as 40 hour cap or overtime.  

With the OP she should not respond to non-urgent emails after or before business hours.  I agree.

But that is your experience.  It isn't everyone's.

My brother is a director at his company, which means he is responsible for supervising an entire territory made up of multiple states.  And he does not and is not required to respond to emails, calls or texts outside of his work week unless it's an extreme emergency such as a work stoppage or a building fire or something like that.  And he certainly is not responding to any communications in the evenings or on weekends.  And he is paid very well (mid six figures).  So it's not absolutely required at every workplace to be available at all times in order to advance or to be paid well.

Anyway, the OP said she's gone and not coming back.  Maybe this will all turn out to be nothing or maybe she will need to report this man to HR if he behaves inappropriately in the future.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, boltnrun said:

But that is your experience.  It isn't everyone's.

My brother is a director at his company, which means he is responsible for supervising an entire territory made up of multiple states.  And he does not and is not required to respond to emails, calls or texts outside of his work week unless it's an extreme emergency such as a work stoppage or a building fire or something like that.  And he certainly is not responding to any communications in the evenings or on weekends.  And he is paid very well (mid six figures).  So it's not absolutely required at every workplace to be available at all times in order to advance or to be paid well.

Anyway, the OP said she's gone and not coming back.  Maybe this will all turn out to be nothing or maybe she will need to report this man to HR if he behaves inappropriately in the future.

Never said it was everyone's. It was basically everyone I knew and knew of. But of course not everyone's. Never said I was right either.  For example I know things are different in Europe with respect to working hours.  So I've heard, anyway.  

That's great for your brother - sounds like he found the right fit for him! I didn't mean to debate -I was only sharing my collective experiences over decades. I never wrote that anyone needs to be available at all times to advance - I gave examples where this was not the case and specifically narrowed it to my collective experience.  I was not available at all times. 

I am sure there are places and situations where it is against the law to require an employee to respond to calls after business hours -don't know of any specifically but it wouldn't surprise me.  It's just not within my knowledge but like I said I know of shift workers, hourly employees and maybe some unionized situations where there are caps on hours, etc.  I don't claim to be an expert.

  I don't think the OP's boss has behaved inappropriately at all.  I am very concerned with how she is reacting and reacted in this thread. We absolutely can disagree!

Edited February 26 by Batya33

[MissCanuck]

14 hours ago, boltnrun said:

But I get the impression she's flattered by this imagined romantic interest from her boss.  It makes her feel desirable and alluring

That's exactly my impression as well. 

[Batya33]

Just now, MissCanuck said:

That's exactly my impression as well. 

Particularly given her rant about the feedback she got from 40 somethings on this thread -but her boss is in his 40s and married so my sense is she imagines that of course he'd be attracted to someone much younger who's also so ambitious, etc. as opposed to those 40 something married women who get mani pedis and eat truffles while lounging on the couch and need to don spanx before going to the grocery store 😉 -luckily I'm 55 so not in the group she's quick to judge).   

[Wiseman2]

On 2/26/2022 at 1:15 AM, Fluffymomo said:

Boundary with Male Boss

Would it matter if this interaction was with a woman boss? It's unclear what his being male has to do with it if you feel overworked when out of the office.