Girl isn't ready for exclusivity or something serious

[WaywardKiwi]

Hey again Jazz,

I continue to have a very different take on this situation. For my perspective, it appears that both you and this woman are interested in each other, but you are both playing it cool. Neither one of you is prepared to make the next move and propose an exclusive relationship; one which you could see becoming long term. Instead, you are both acting disinterested and/or non-commital in the hope the other will confess their feelings and take the risk. Its a losing strategy. 

You will not get any indication from her that she wants more, regardless of her feelings. If you do feel that you want more with her, you need to be willing to take the risk. In Japanese culture, it is called a confession and I went through a not dissimilar situation with my now wife. Fortunately, I was motivated enough to take a leap of faith and ask for what I wanted. It worked out. It may be similar in Turkish culture. I will add that my wife has lived and dated under western cultural norms before, so she was aware of the difference, but followed this modus operandi with me as it felt more in line with her expectation of a real relationship. 

If you really want more, I recommend planning a romantic date, and asking, poin blank, to be girlfriend and boyfriend. Tell her you dont want to date other people, and that you see a potential future with her so you want to try for it. 

Now, I may be wrong, and she may be telling you the truth about her feelings now. She may reject you if you ask for more. But at least you'd know, and you could decide with open eyes what came next. 

Just my 2 cents,

T

[MissCanuck]

Woman here. 

This one is not that into you - especially if this is the same woman as your previous thread. I am not sure what you refuse to see here. 

She is still looking for the guy who she wants to commit to. Unforuantely, that isn't you. She is happy to keep you on stand-by in the meantime, but she doesn't want to be your girlfriend. You will be discarded when she meets a man she is crazy about. 

[jazz_lover]

T: when she mentioned a few weeks ago she was confused about labels I said that I'd be comfortable calling her my girlfriend and she said she wasn't sure and preferred not to label things and to keep things the way they are. Then as mentioned a week later out of the blue she said she wasn't ready for seriousness or exclusivity and felt she owed me an explanation. So she's already rejected me for wanting more. And we've continued to hang out but she's less affectionate and more distant so I think she is pulling away and clearly has started seeing other people. 

But she still confuses me a bit sometimes. It is pretty apparent that she talks a lot about me with her friends mentioning things we've done together, things that I've said and she says when her friends ask about me she struggles with how to describe me e.g. friend/date/boyfriend and often just falls back on we are seeing each other and have decided not to label it. She says she wants to include me in her social life but was hesitant because a month or so ago when she wanted to invite at the last minute a work friend and her husband to a Halloween event I vetoed it saying I'd prefer if it was just us and she interpreted that as me not wanting to meet her friends and that was holding her back. I said it wasn't an issue and I'd love to meet her friends and the other week she was seeing some jazz with a male friend and asked me to pick her up afterwards and I had a drink with her friend and her. 

She was having a go at me at the weekend asking why I hadn't introduced her to any of my friends. I wanted to say "because you aren't my girlfriend" but instead said that my friendships were quite compartmentalized and there hadn't been any recent social gatherings where I could bring a plus one but I was having some drinks with some former work friends this week and she could maybe join. 

Then midweek after hardly texting me all week she said to let her know the details about the drinks and if I was OK with her joining and it is totally OK if I don't want her to. But no idea whether she wants to meet people in my life or whether she just wants to piggyback on my social life. But I figured would be useful to introduce her to some people and see what they make of her. 

[Wiseman2]

You keep bringing up events and conversations from months ago. Are you still dating?

[Kwothe28]

25 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

She was having a go at me at the weekend asking why I hadn't introduced her to any of my friends. I wanted to say "because you aren't my girlfriend"

Why didnt you? It was a valid answer.

Also, dont introduce her to friends. She doesnt appear to be interested in anything serious with you but to just attend social gatherings and party. She is not a girlfriend so why pretending she is one? What if she hooks up with some of your friends? Again, I dunno why you persist on something that doesnt go beyond FWB after months of you trying to progress it and she refusing.

[junebug123]

Its okay to catch feelings for people. I'm sorry your going through this, there were so many times I wish I would have listened to what people on this forum said about my own situations. I guess when your deep in it, your in it. I hope you can take some time away from this relationship and look into other areas of your life.

Time heals all wounds.

[WaywardKiwi]

18 hours ago, jazz_lover said:

T: when she mentioned a few weeks ago she was confused about labels I said that I'd be comfortable calling her my girlfriend and she said she wasn't sure and preferred not to label things and to keep things the way they are. Then as mentioned a week later out of the blue she said she wasn't ready for seriousness or exclusivity and felt she owed me an explanation. So she's already rejected me for wanting more. And we've continued to hang out but she's less affectionate and more distant so I think she is pulling away and clearly has started seeing other people. 

But she still confuses me a bit sometimes. It is pretty apparent that she talks a lot about me with her friends mentioning things we've done together, things that I've said and she says when her friends ask about me she struggles with how to describe me e.g. friend/date/boyfriend and often just falls back on we are seeing each other and have decided not to label it. She says she wants to include me in her social life but was hesitant because a month or so ago when she wanted to invite at the last minute a work friend and her husband to a Halloween event I vetoed it saying I'd prefer if it was just us and she interpreted that as me not wanting to meet her friends and that was holding her back. I said it wasn't an issue and I'd love to meet her friends and the other week she was seeing some jazz with a male friend and asked me to pick her up afterwards and I had a drink with her friend and her. 

She was having a go at me at the weekend asking why I hadn't introduced her to any of my friends. I wanted to say "because you aren't my girlfriend" but instead said that my friendships were quite compartmentalized and there hadn't been any recent social gatherings where I could bring a plus one but I was having some drinks with some former work friends this week and she could maybe join. 

Then midweek after hardly texting me all week she said to let her know the details about the drinks and if I was OK with her joining and it is totally OK if I don't want her to. But no idea whether she wants to meet people in my life or whether she just wants to piggyback on my social life. But I figured would be useful to introduce her to some people and see what they make of her. 

To be honest, from your own description, I think you are sending mixed signals and half commitments her way and complaining you get the same back. 

If you want to take that next step, say what you want, without the hedging and confusing language or just walk away, because unless you make a move it to get that commitment, it won't happen. Don't ask her if its okay or what she wants, or imply you are fine either way, or some other vaguery.

And if you don't want it, or aren't sure, then stop complaining that she feels similar. Trust me, basing your relationship purely on what the other person wants is doomed to fail. Follow your heart, and if this isnt the one, at least you will find out faster. 

T

 

[jazz_lover]

Yeah I understand what you mean. 

I am OK with not labelling things but this "not ready for exclusivity" thing bugs me especially as she socializes and parties a lot and was very vague when we discussed it (i.e. she is not "dating" anyone but is "speaking" with some people) and I already know she has a lot of male friends and uses the term "friend" very flexibly. 

As I understand "dating exclusively" is quite normal at the 3 month mark. So the fact she doesn't want that indicates this is a FWB situation and she is keeping me around while she looks for someone she does actually see relationship potential with and in the meantime is probably enjoying flirting with other guys every time she goes out and maybe even sleeping with other guys. 

[WaywardKiwi]

18 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

Yeah I understand what you mean. 

I am OK with not labelling things but this "not ready for exclusivity" thing bugs me especially as she socializes and parties a lot and was very vague when we discussed it (i.e. she is not "dating" anyone but is "speaking" with some people) and I already know she has a lot of male friends and uses the term "friend" very flexibly. 

As I understand "dating exclusively" is quite normal at the 3 month mark. So the fact she doesn't want that indicates this is a FWB situation and she is keeping me around while she looks for someone she does actually see relationship potential with and in the meantime is probably enjoying flirting with other guys every time she goes out and maybe even sleeping with other guys. 

Hey Jazz,

I suppose the question is, what are you going to do about it? If it bugs you, and you are confident in your abductive reasoning, then you should end it. Personally, I would be classy and do it in person, over a coffee (not a meal), and simply explain that while you don't necessarily need labels, you feel the relationship such as it is lacks the potential you are looking for, specifically that you hope to meet someone who is inspired to be exclusive with you. 

Alternatively, if you do see potential with her and want to take a punt, I would plan a romantic dinner and put it to her, unequivocally, that while you don't necessarily need labels right now, you see a real potential with her and want to keep growing the relationship. As such, you do want to be exclusive and meet friends and family, and be seen as 'the person she is with'. 

While many appear to view her as some manipulative witch, I don't really see evidence of that and imagine in either scenario she would be fairly forthright in her position. 

The main point is, vague and abstract conversations, probabilities, abductive logic, and the opinions of far removed strangers online who hear only your side, are not going to tell you what you really want to know; where do I stand.

Good luck,

T

[Wiseman2]

49 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

  in the meantime is probably enjoying flirting with other guys every time she goes out and maybe even sleeping with other guys. 

But you are both playing this "out with a friend" game. You're bored lonely, she's the only sex you've gotten in a while. It's that simple.

You both know that's all it is so why pretend either of you want a "commitment" . You're getting lost in semantics of "friend" FWB, dating,etc.

You already know it's a limited short term deal for both of you. You knew from the beginning what you were getting into. You pay for drinks and dinner and she'll sleep with you sometimes.

[Rose Mosse]

This doesn't seem fulfilling enough if you're asking about it still. She still confuses you and causes you the same type of discomforts with her evasive words and contradictory behaviour. She's with you because you're pleasant to be around and you agree to do what she wants to do.

Of course she's entitled to do what she wants to do and not to date you or be in an exclusive relationship with you if she chooses not to. 

You say that you're ok with that but you disagree with her lifestyle partying and socializing a lot. You contradict yourself also, saying you accept a part of her but not other parts. I'm not certain why you keep doing this to yourself.

[smackie9]

Totally friends zoned.

[Jibralta]

On 12/10/2021 at 5:48 AM, jazz_lover said:

I am OK with not labelling things but this "not ready for exclusivity" thing bugs me especially as she socializes and parties a lot and was very vague when we discussed it (i.e. she is not "dating" anyone but is "speaking" with some people) and I already know she has a lot of male friends and uses the term "friend" very flexibly.

I don't think you're being honest with yourself. How much more direct can she be than this:

On 12/2/2021 at 11:22 AM, jazz_lover said:

She said "Hmm. I guess. I dunno. I think once you start a relationship it gets serious and I do not think I am ready for that. Let's keep things the way they are and not label it. Labels are unimportant anyway it is more important how you feel and what you do not your commitments".

On 12/2/2021 at 11:22 AM, jazz_lover said:

"Btw the reason i dont accept us to be in a relationship yet is that i am not ready for exclusivity and seriousness (although i dont fool around with you ofc) as i want to be in the right mindset when i commit to sth, as i dont wanna mess things up. But you are important to me. Wanted to let you know"

How much more direct can she be? Do you want her to divulge the details of her flirtations with other guys?

I don't think she's being manipulative or abusive to you at all. If anyone is doing that to you, it's you:

On 12/6/2021 at 6:51 PM, jazz_lover said:

Oh the other night she asked what I was up to and I said I was about to meet a friend. She said "Oh who's the friend? Followed by "If it is a date it is fine!" 

Not sure whether she is jealous and has realized that by saying she is not ready for exclusivity she has given me a free pass to date other women. Or if she is projecting and assuming because she is/wants to date other people that I must be doing so as well. Or if she is hoping I am dating people so she can take it as a sign that I am OK with her dating other people. But seemed a strange reaction. 

Look how you're trying to assign other meanings to her sentence, like she doesn't actually mean that it's ok for you to be on a date with someone else. I'm wondering why you find it so difficult to take her at face value: "Please do date other people; don't get too hung up on me!!" What more do you need?

You guys do things differently:

On 12/9/2021 at 5:43 AM, jazz_lover said:

She was having a go at me at the weekend asking why I hadn't introduced her to any of my friends. I wanted to say "because you aren't my girlfriend"

She doesn't have to be like you, and you don't have to be like her. The important part is knowing the limits of what what you are comfortable with and sticking to them, instead of getting upset when other people aren't behaving the way that you think they should be. 

She's not going to do anything that she doesn't want to do--at least not for long. If this upsets you, it's time to find a different girl.

[jazz_lover]

Well we met last Saturday for dinner and a movie. She was a little standoffish. Not as affectionate as she'd been previously and while she cosied up to me a bit in the movie a lot of the time she was sitting upright with her arms crossed. I walked her home and at her door when I kissed her goodnight she gave me her cheek. I asked her why we don't kiss anymore and she looked away and said she doesn't know. But half an hour later sent me a text thanking me for a lovely evening followed by nite nite darling x.

Next morning she texted me saying she'd slept 14 hours and felt like a walk and did I want to join her. She seemed like a different person and was warm and affectionate and laughing at all my jokes and we ended up spending several hours together. She said she wanted me to meet her best friend and her husband next week and also suggested we go on a staycation before Christmas. And she cosied up to me when we were sitting together in the pub and was kissing me back enthusiastically and at her door gave me a sweet kiss goodnight instead of giving me the cheek as she did the previous night.

Next morning she follows up asking when I'm free for the dinner with her friends. We agree on something and she said she called the restaurant to make the booking and they asked if it was a special occasion and she told them "yeah i'm introducing my bf to my best friends lol" and then said let's see what they will do for us. She also asked when we should take the staycation and suggested we take a day off work and go on the Friday. 

Then she asked what she should get for my family if she decided to join us for Christmas. I mentioned the possibility a few weeks ago when she was complaining that she still hadn't met any of my friends or family as I said I knew she wasn't able to go home for Christmas and could be fun for her to experience a British Christmas with all the traditions but she said nothing in response at the time and hadn't brought it up since so I was quite taken aback. Although I guess maybe she just doesn't want to be alone on Christmas day. And then she asked what we were doing for NYE!

But then a few days later she tells me she has tested positive for COVID and would have to isolate for the next 10 days so she had to cancel the dinner and said we wouldn't be able to do the staycation either. I called her on the phone and she didn't sound well and the day before while she was trying to plan all these things over the Christmas period she mentioned she had a sore throat and felt a bit funny. But of course I am a little suspicious she is making it up. 

So no idea what is going on or where that leaves me. But I'm guessing maybe she was just feeling lonely over the Christmas period and wanted to have some plans and she is a bit of a drama queen so if she did get COVID she is definitely going to milk it. Although she's continued to text me while she's been ill and she seems to be watching a lot of Netflix and I dunno but when I am ill I would find texting or watching TV very difficult. 

But anyway we aren't exclusive so I guess I should use the next 10 days to date other girls and not seeing her for 10 days might help me break the spell she has over me. 

 

[WaywardKiwi]

Hey jazzlover,

I am not going to repeat what I have already said. You should stop seeing this woman. You clearly resent her and do not trust her, so there is no basis for even a casual relationship. You seem unwilling to accept that she will occasionally be less inclined to throw herself at you, and blind to her attempt to progress the relationship; instead you prefer to believe that she is engage in a master deception, which includes faking COVID, with no real tangible reward other than keeping you wondering. 

You have drunk too deeply from the chalice of your own insecurity, and poisoned this relationship. Move on, and reflect before trying again 

T 

[Wiseman2]

33 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

  she tells me she has tested positive for COVID and would have to isolate for the next 10 days so she had to cancel the dinner and said we wouldn't be able to do the staycation either. 

Did you get Covid testing/vaccinations? 

Do that and get tested for STDs as well.

[East4]

OP, do you continue to foot the bill for all these frequent outings/dates, that seem to revolve around dinner and drinks, so rather expensive and especially in London. If she clealry demonstrates that she is just a friend/FWB, you are under no obligation to pay for everything. Her "cultural differences" excuse is just that, a lame excuse to mooch on you. I think she keeps you around for very materialistic reasons, and it is because she enjoys the free ride. And the ego boost of having you like her lap dog, running to her at the snap of her fingers, no matter how badly she treats you.

I come from a neighbouring to Turkey country, and we have a good share of Turkish population in my country of origin, so I am familiar with their culture. Women do not multidate several men at the same time, like she does, and they would accept dinners/treats only from their husbands and monogamous partners (serious boyfriend/fiancé). In the rare event where mixed gender friends go out for dinner/coffee/tea, women pay their way and this is a code to show the friendship-type-interaction.

What she does is having her cake and eat it too, in the sense that she benefits from multidating; which is OK for western europens (she would not do that in Turkey, as she would immediately be labeled as s**t), all the wile requiring that her multiple orbitters foot the bill, like men do in Turkey for their serious girlfriends. She enjoys the best of the Eastern and Western worlds, because she has found a fool like you to buy into her "cultural differences" nonsense. 

In the spirit of equality, what about the British culture, where women pay for outings too? You are British and most importantly you both live in London, so how about she gets to respect your national culture and the country she lives in, and start paying her way as a grown up woman.

It seems that you have accepted your role as suggar daddy and you are afraid to stop paying, because you realise she will be gone if you refuse to spoil her with dinners/events/ and acting like her local guide.

It is a pity you are not only going to have to mend a broken heart, but also a broken bank account/credit score.

Whatch out the Christmas/New year, she will expect treats/gifts even if Christmas is a Christian holiday and Turks are not Christians 😉

 

[jazz_lover]

Yes I’m continuing to pay for everything. And you are absolutely right that it if she isn’t ready for seriousness or exclusivity it is unfair to continue to expect me to pay. But she falls back on the excuse it’s her culture and she’s high maintenance and it’s part of the package. 

But I don’t think she is dating anyone else or sleeping with anyone else. She’s basically honest and I asked her the question when she brought up not being ready for exclusivity yet. Maybe I’m naive but she texts me so much and spends so much time with me and all her friends know about me so I think any other men in her life are just orbiters 

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

Yes I’m continuing to pay for everything. And you are absolutely right that it if she isn’t ready for seriousness or exclusivity it is unfair to continue to expect me to pay. But she falls back on the excuse it’s her culture and she’s high maintenance and it’s part of the package. 

But I don’t think she is dating anyone else or sleeping with anyone else. She’s basically honest and I asked her the question when she brought up not being ready for exclusivity yet. Maybe I’m naive but she texts me so much and spends so much time with me and all her friends know about me so I think any other men in her life are just orbiters 

Yes you are naive.  Yes it's not fair for you to pay whether she is ready or not.  You're supposed to pay in exchange for her seriousness?? What does that mean? Certainly if you're married and combining finances then sure one spouse might pay most or all for the other depending -but if she was ready to be serious it would be ok for you to foot the bill 100%? 

Of course there is always time to date others.  I multidated when I wasn't exclusive and worked crazy hours and had a social life.  I always had time and made time to meet men, date, etc. I had friends who would text one man in the restaurant bathroom then return to their date at the table.  

[KittyCAT56]

I see that the girl is getting a lot of ***, while she is only expressing openly how she is confused on how to be in a relationship. She told you already that her head is a mess, and while she is `dating` you, she is also trying to find herself. No matter exclusive or not exclusive, i think every couple goes through this type of friendships where men will try to go out with her, and say something, as long as she tells you this stuff, and you know that she is not sleeping or kissing anyone else, enjoy the connection. Thats what it means being with someone, knowing their ***, either you like it or not, if you dont like the ***, let her know kindly and if she likes you enough she will change for you, but dont suffocate her with jealousy... we all have those friends who joke around like they wanna sleep with us if he could, the point is to not sleep with them, not stopping the friendship!

 

[East4]

1 hour ago, jazz_lover said:

Yes I’m continuing to pay for everything. And you are absolutely right that it if she isn’t ready for seriousness or exclusivity it is unfair to continue to expect me to pay. But she falls back on the excuse it’s her culture and she’s high maintenance and it’s part of the package. 

But I don’t think she is dating anyone else or sleeping with anyone else. She’s basically honest and I asked her the question when she brought up not being ready for exclusivity yet. Maybe I’m naive but she texts me so much and spends so much time with me and all her friends know about me so I think any other men in her life are just orbiters 

she is just using you at several levels: for entertainment, support in a new country, and financially too.

It is your bank account, so who am I to tell you not squander your money, if you have decided to throw it away.

It will be hard though to be simpathetic to your plight when several months down the road you get to post in the "Healing after break up" section.

To me you are grasping at straws to convince yourself that this woman is interested in you: the amount of texts, the amount of time she spends with you. But you turn a blind eye to her clealry telling you that she goes out with other men and she does not want to be your girlfriend. Of course she spends time with you: mainly in restaurants eating on your dime and at gigs that you pay for. If you stop paying, you will not hear from her.

I guess, you will need to hit rock bottom, before you start see things clealry.

 

[jazz_lover]

Texted her today saying "Hey E. How are you feeling?". She didn't like that saying "Hey what's up" in the afternoon is something you'd say to a buddy. 

I offered to visit and look after her or keep her company during her isolation period. She basically said it is not about making her feel better but about me wanting to spend time with her. Not just doing something to make her feel good or better. But she would keep the offer in mind. 

I had no idea how to respond to this. So just said OK hope you feel better soon goodnight. 

[Andrina]

Ick. She criticized you twice in one conversation. I just don't get what the appeal is when she grinds you out like you're a cigarette butt under her heel. Imagine what your life would be like if you actually lived with her. You'd be working 2 jobs and overtime to pay for all the groceries, rent, and all the utilities while she maxes out your credit cards and goes out for drinks with her female and MALE friends. Wake up!!!!!

[DancingFool]

25 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

Texted her today saying "Hey E. How are you feeling?". She didn't like that saying "Hey what's up" in the afternoon is something you'd say to a buddy. 

I offered to visit and look after her or keep her company during her isolation period. She basically said it is not about making her feel better but about me wanting to spend time with her. Not just doing something to make her feel good or better. But she would keep the offer in mind. 

I had no idea how to respond to this. So just said OK hope you feel better soon goodnight. 

....You know....some day you will look back at this situation and cringe to the bottom of your soul at how absolutely pathetic you were being and what a sad sad desperate doormat you were without a shred of self respect or self esteem in sight. I hope that day comes for you sooner rather than later.

In the meantime, I dare say that you will continue to humiliate yourself until she finally kicks you to the curb for good because she finally found who she is looking for.

I'm honestly embarrassed on your behalf....smh.....

[Kwothe28]

29 minutes ago, jazz_lover said:

I offered to visit and look after her or keep her company during her isolation period.

Do you want to get Covid? Because that is how you get Covid.

I dont mind you pining after somebody until she completely brushes you off but please, dont risk getting infectious disease from her lol