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Help! I don't understand the concept of marriage!


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Also if the relationship goes badly, you may be under the same kind of communal property laws as a regular marriage would be (she could end up getting the house like in a divorce) anyway.

Cohabitating itself is a very big step... you shouldn't do it unless you know for sure this is going to end well.

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For instance... in Texas it can get really crazy...  

"Next, if your families refer to you and your spouse as husband and wife and treat you all this way as well that is another sign of a common law marriage. If your partner’s father is calling you his “son in law”, you are no longer in a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. You have two options at this stage: you can either put a stop to that by confirming that you and your significant other are not married, or you cannot take any action. By not taking action you are essentially confirming the common law marriage. Do not be surprised that if you attempt to end the relationship with a simple conversation, your partner may argue that a divorce is necessary.

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1 hour ago, tattoobunnie said:

Same with another buddy who's been with the same girl for 25 years now...he will never marry her because he doesn't love her...sometimes, you also don't get the reason for marriage because you aren't with the right person.

Yes I've seen this. 

Leaving and moving on is better than when the man IS pressured to marry the woman he lived with 10+ years, because then they're both grouchy and miserable all the time.

Better to just pick someone you actually DO love and want to commit to (someone you *can't* live without), than live for endless years cohabitating with someone you could live without and don't' care about enough to marry.

The couples we've known that lived too long together before marriage, bicker at each other and have sour attitudes once they do marry.  It's strange, but maybe it's because they were pressured into it and really never loved each other enough.

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28 minutes ago, maritalbliss86 said:

Forgive me if someone already pointed this out, but... depending on where you live, sometimes just cohabitating together becomes what is legally called a, Common Law Marriage anyway.  So it still makes things harder to get out of depending on what your laws are.

Exactly. Where I live one year of cohabitation you are considered in a common law marriage . 

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But if you’re terrified of the legal commitment part or legal consequences never live together. My brother is finally getting divorce after 7 years of separation and says he will NEVER live with another woman not even his gf of 6 years because he wants no legal commitment to anyone but his children. 

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Also please don’t tell yourself you “don’t understand”. My son didn’t understand the concept of marriage when he was a child (for example he assumed all brides had a baby  in their belly just like his mother did) and when I was child I didn’t as I wanted to marry my daddy when I was like 5.  You don’t want to get married. You know that.  
You “understand “ what marriage is you just lack the emotional desire to commit in marriage to your girlfriend and in general you lack the emotional desire to marry in general.  
Now it’s possible you could meet someone who knocked your socks off so that you couldn’t imagine life without her and this feeling triggered a desire to commit in marriage but that’s not as typical as knowing in general you’d like to marry the right person then meeting the right person. 

even if you “understood “ how others conceptualize marriage your title question would be answered.  But not your real question.  Or questions. 

also if your parents or close friends were or are married that can influence your concept of marriage. I don’t buy the whole societal pressures to be a fancy shmancy bride as “marriage “.
 

Certainly it’s easier to be a couple in today’s world.  Easier to be a married couple in today’s world. We’re inundated with images of brides and rings and wedding receptions and honeymoons.  but the vast majority of adults know exactly why they’re getting married and are not brainwashed whether it’s for love or legalities or a green card or some other reason.  Or they have the big party because mom and dad are paying. But they know.

I also think living together before marriage is not essential especially if kids are planned right after marriage.  I’d have learned nothing relevant and had unrealistic expectations had we lived together first as 3 months later we were sharing a one bedroom with a newborn.  And all his “stuff “. 
Please do let this woman go if she wants marriage. 

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Just FYI generally: (as OP is in the U.K.)

"Many couples believe that moving in together creates a common law marriage, giving you the same rights as if you were married. It does not - the concept of common law marriage has no legal validity in the UK "

 "..under British law, two unmarried people living under the same roof are effectively no more than housemates. This means that if one partner dies or the couple decide to separate, they may struggle to prove that they are entitled to any part of their partner’s assets or estate."

(From a U.K. law firm Caversham Solicitors). 

However, the OP does not wish to marry, and that lies at the heart of the matter. 

Edited by LaHermes
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1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

  Look it's just me. I know, some women (girls typically don't marry -they're too young) want all the fanfare -not because they're passive clueless follow the leader sheep.  They really do or they want to please family.  I am being judgey but only because your description make too many women (girls??) look like airheads.  Most are not and I suggest that men don't marry someone like that because marriage should be a partnership with two reasonably assertive, independent, mature and intelligent people -whether academically intelligent, emotionally intelligent, both whatever. 

I dunno where did you get that from my writing. Marriage means different thing to different people. My sister is living 13 years now with my brother-in-law. They have 2 kids but they never did marry. She, like OP, see marriage as a piece of paper as well. And that is fine. I had fun at her expanse at cousin wedding where I said she should try to catch bidermeier(that flower bucket bride throws to bridesmaids and other single gals). She just laugh and said she is already considered married. Here I think long-term living together along with things like having kids is considered common-law marriage. So thats OK. If they ever get separated she is protected by law as if she was a spouse. Because they both invest into his home where they live together. So it is OK that they both have right by law if something happens. 

Anyway, back to subject, not a lot of women are like that. Some want that big wedding, or just wedding in general. Lots of them wants that special feeling and there is nothing wrong with that. For you it was the vows, for somebody else its a lot of different things like walking down the isle, sharing that moment with special someone or even group of people like parents or friends, first dance, heck even superficial stuff like looking perfect in that wedding dress. Those are all nice and special things in their lives, dunno why you think it makes them airheads. I certanly didnt think that every girl is "bridezilla" who doesnt stop until she gets that perfect wedding not even caring for a person that she marries. Just that lots of them wants that special feeling you had. Hope I clarified that lol

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Hope the OP returns to let us know how he now envisages things.   

Again if OP does not wish to marry (be it his current partner or any other woman) that is his prerogative.  However, it would appear there was not total clarity (at least on her side) from the outset. 

There are people in loving and caring relationships (living together) , but, but, this is when they BOTH do not wish to marry or are against the notion of marriage.

  Different scenario altogether. 

And, again, a wedding and a marriage are two different things. As an old guy friend of my Dad's used to wisely say: "The spade work starts once the honeymoon is over." He and wife married something like 49 years.

 

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5 hours ago, Reg said:

I've explained to her that I don't really understand the concept of a marriage. IMO, I don't see the point in spending tens of thousands on a wedding day, and entering a legal contract which makes things very tricky if anything was to go wrong in the relationship.

You know what the concept of marriage is. So acting obtuse and argumentative toward her won't help your case. Apparently it's important to her and that's who you need to concern yourself with.

Getting a mortgage together will get even trickier if things don't work out. You know that as well.

Since you are both at odds, why not rent a place for a year then when the lease is up decide what you both want? Now that...is easier to walk away from an albatross like a house/mortgage. 

Say it doesn't work out and neither of you can afford to buy the other out? What then? You tell dates "I live with my exgf because I can't afford to move"?

And an easy walk is what you're looking for, you're just trying to package it with double talk and foolish financial decisions.

Not wanting marriage or weddings is fine. But it's not that fine for her, so you've got some reflecting to do.

Edited by Wiseman2
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5 hours ago, Reg said:

I am very happy to stay with this girl forever

On one hand, you comment that you're very happy to stay with this girl forever. On the other hand, when you're asked to have it in writing, e.g. legal marriage, you run. If you're happy to stay with this girl forever, then why not make it legally official?

Something to think about, I'd say.

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6 hours ago, Reg said:

I didn't think it was a big deal, until a couple of times recently that she has made comments about wanting to get married. 

Just to remark that marriage IS  a big deal, as is not getting married.

I suppose OP that your fiancée has family, and she may well have discussed with them this notion about the mortgage. Perhaps they expressed concerns and that is why she recently started commenting on wishing to marry.And I ask  the same question as Wise. :

"So decide what you are so against. The legal contract of marriage or weddings, because they are two  entirely different concepts."

Edited by LaHermes
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I think that's absolutely fine that you don't want to get married and there is nothing wrong with that. BUT I think you also need to understand and respect that for some people it is actually important to get married and it's what they want. I really don't think it's fair to "persuade" your girlfriend not to get married if she actually really wants to. It may be that you and her are actually incompatible and it's not fair for either of you to force the other person into what they want. 

What are both your opinions on kids? That's really important too.

I'm not speaking for everyone but for me wanting to get married always just felt like this strong gut feeling deep inside. I always wanted to get married and have kids, even when I was only a teenager. To me marriage symbolises really choosing that person for the rest of your life and having something special to show for it. Like wearing your engagement ring and your wedding ring. Personally I feel that a wedding is really special and it's a celebration of mine and my partner's love for each other that we want to share with our friends and family too. 

I love going to weddings, I think it's very beautiful and I always shed a tear. I was engaged before and I loved wearing my engagement ring and planning my wedding. We had already booked a venue and I was looking for my wedding dress and it was so fun and special.

I know I'm a girly woman but to me wearing the wedding dress, doing my hair and make-up and walking down the aisle would have been really special. I've always wanted that my whole life.

I think it would be cruel for you to take this chance away from your girlfriend if it's what are wants. Personally I would break up with anyone who didn't want marriage and in fact I have done that in the past. It's what I really want and I won't give up on it.

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6 hours ago, Reg said:

I don't see the point in spending tens of thousands on a wedding day, and entering a legal contract which makes things very tricky if anything was to go wrong in the relationship.

This is your answer right there in your own words. Marriage is the ultimate commitment and devotion to a partner, even when things do go wrong (which inevitably happens in the life of a couple). 

From your statement above in bold font, it looks like you are one foot out the door and you will bolt as soon as the relationship deteriorated. 

The overall feeling, reading through your post, is that yours is a relationship of convenience, rather than one based on the conviction that your girlfriend is the one for you, the person that you trust to be in your corner, whatever life may throw at you.  Looks like you leverage her financial power, but at the same time your primary concern remains your own protection for when " if anything was to go wrong in the relationship."

Marriage is when one does know that hardship is in store at some moment in the future, and that the person one has chosen is the best person you want to face that hardship with. Two individuals whose sole concern is their own self-preservation when hardship does knock on the door: this is not marriage, even if you might have bought 10 houses together and shared bed for 20 years.

I hope this clarifies

Edited by East4
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Marriage is special. But so is co-habitation between two persons who BOTH want that.  Here the difficulty is that the OP's fiancée appears to want marriage (again, I stress, a wedding is not the same as marriage).  A party is a party, and a wedding is a party.

For the life of me I cannot understand spending say 40.000 Euro (and that is considered reasonable in these parts) on a wedding, when that would be quite a good deposit on a house, not to mention the price of a very good car!!

But each to his/her own. What is regrettable is the "I want my wedding to be as good if not better than Jane/Marianne/Lucy's".  There is a lot of the keeping up with the Joneses going on in these macro-weddings. Believe me. 

One does not have to be married to be committed to each other.  Marriage is a choice. Just that. Recently heard of a local couple who after 40 years of co-habitation decided to tie the knot. Private ceremony. And that's fine too. Marriage is not a road to sainthood, and it isn't only saints or would-be saints who get married.  Perfectly respectable and good living people co-habit.  Their choice.

But that's a different argument. 

The OP said in first post:

" I feel like I want to convince her that we don't need to get married.... but equally, if that is what she wants, then I don't really want to be the guy that's ruining that for her. "

Fair enough.  Decision time looms. 

 

 

 

Edited by LaHermes
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21 minutes ago, East4 said:

This is your answer right there in your own words. Marriage is the ultimate commitment and devotion to a partner, even when things do go wrong (which inevitably happens in the life of a couple). 

From your statement above in bold font, it looks like you are one foot out the door and you will bolt as soon as the relationship deteriorated. 

The overall feeling, reading through your post, is that yours is a relationship of convenience, rather than one based on the conviction that your girlfriend is the one for you, the person that you trust to be in your corner, whatever life may throw at you.  Looks like you leverage her financial power, but at the same time your primary concern remains your own protection for when " if anything was to go wrong in the relationship."

Marriage is when one does know that hardship is in store at some moment in the future, and that the person one has chosen is the best person you want to face that hardship with. Two individuals whose sole concern is their own self-preservation when hardship does knock on the door: this is not marriage, even if you might have bought 10 houses together and shared bed for 20 years.

I hope this clarifies

That is it! The person you want to face the good and bad times with. The person who has your back forever. 
If you’re looking for a way to bail when life gets hard, you’re not ready for commitment. 

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3 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

Anyway, back to subject, not a lot of women are like that. Some want that big wedding, or just wedding in general. Lots of them wants that special feeling and there is nothing wrong with that. For you it was the vows, for somebody else its a lot of different things like walking down the isle, sharing that moment with special someone or even group of people like parents or friends, first dance, heck even superficial stuff like looking perfect in that wedding dress. Those are all nice and special things in their lives, dunno why you think it makes them airheads. I certanly didnt think that every girl is "bridezilla" who doesnt stop until she gets that perfect wedding not even caring for a person that she marries. Just that lots of them wants that special feeling you had. Hope I clarified that lol

You wrote a lot about what "girls" wish for and about societal pressures.

The wedding is the ceremony, the vows.  The rest is the wedding reception or parties celebrating the marriage. Two very different things.  Of course people want different size wedding receptions and parties -or none of the above but that's not the wedding.  The wedding is the vows.  Some people write their own, or have a religious officiant or not but that's the wedding.  I think you were describing "girls" who wish for a big party and big dress because of societal messages as if they're passive sheep following the lead.  And that a man can given them their wish. 

If a woman or man (girls and boys can't marry other than in specific instances where the parents allow) wants a big party or to be center of attention etc that's totally fine - not judging.  I didn't' like the way you made it so gender specific and such the rule that all "girls" want big parties and a fancy bridal gown because of what they see in the media.  I don't think that's true and I don't regard women in that passive way.  My special feeling was based on my vows and getting married not from how we chose to celebrate.  That was fun and special too but very different than and separate from the special part of getting married  

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Hey, OP.

Quote

I don't see the point in spending tens of thousands on a wedding day...

Myriad people share your financial concerns. A wedding that is tens of thousands of dollars is not the only option. Have a small wedding (with or without a reception), or just go get married at the courthouse.

Find a way to determine what type of wedding your partner would be okay with and go from there.

Quote

...entering a legal contract which makes things very tricky if anything was to go wrong in the relationship

Look into prenuptial agreements. Essentially you can agree beforehand what happens in the case of divorce or separation. I think you probably could find a way to ensure that in the event you two split, all financials are restored to status quo ante, property is partitioned fairly, that sort of thing. 

Quote

And following the wedding, nothing is different about the day to day life of the relationship between married and not married, so what's the point? 

The difference is she does not leave you. You might have to choose what is more important: her or your contrarianism. 

Maybe this is not the hill to die on.

--

Hope this helps.

Edited by Pleasedonot5
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There is nothing wrong with wanted to get married. Its wonderful that she knows what she wants.  She should not have to compromise on that. if it means that she marries someone else -- a guy that also wants to find a wife and wants to spend the rest of his life with her - and you end up without her -- so be it.

By 30, you should know - by reading literature, watching movies , observing other people in an older age group than you that marriage indeed means something to people.  I had a friend who didn't want to get married, but didn't bash people who wanted to get married, or pretend they had no clue what the big deal was.  They thought marriage DID have meaning, but they did not want a lifelong partnership and were respectful of others by only occasionally going on dates, not dating anyone who wanted to get married, etc.  Friendships and occasional dates suited them fine.

I think if marriage does not have meaning for you -- you should not marry her NOR should you convince her to just live together. You should find someone who wants to remain equally unattached.    If you go into it with the attitude "people usually divorce anyways" etc, you won't give 100% of yourself.  you will always be holding back.

My ex married me after a number of years because he didn't want to be old and alone. I had not realized that until after.  He thought marriage didn't work - and guess what -- we barely lasted. he was abusive anyhow -- but when stuff in life wasn't going the way he wanted to, he ran home to mommy.

Marriage is not about a big wedding. It could be a church wedding  if she is a person of faith with 25 guests and no reception. It could be just two witnesses at a court house - but you would want to share the day/your joy with some family, you know?  Its your family and friends that are the ones rooting for you as a couple and want to be supportive over the years

 

Anyhow, i am not about to convince someone who doesn't want to get married to get married -- but don't take the other person down with you . Do not move in with them as they will think its a "step" and its not. 

 

It could be that you just don't want to marry HER.  Sometimes someone comes along and we never considered marriage before - suddenly our mind totally changes when we meet someone.  It happens all the time. A woman lives with a guy for years, they break up and she hears that he was married to someone else in less than two years. 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Pleasedonot5 said:

.

Look into prenuptial agreements. Essentially you can agree beforehand what happens in the case of divorce or separation. I think you probably could find a way to ensure that in the event you two split, all financials are restored to status quo ante, property is partitioned fairly, that sort of thing. 

 

Unless you are two famous celebrities with billions of dollars  that are intended to remain in your family or one of you is an heir to the Postit Note company,  and you are two regular people who don't have a lot, a prenup only states that you are prepping for a divorce - you are getting married with your fingers crossed behind your back.

In a lot of areas, what you bring into the marriage is yours, but what you make during the marriage is both of yours. What if you have kids, she stays home with them a few years and puts her career on the backburner in favor of yours  - a prenup in areas where the split is equitable based on financial contribution - you could leave her destitute. 

Anyway - i guess i am saying  don't put her through this

 

 

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Quote

a prenup only states that you are prepping for a divorce - you are getting married with your fingers crossed behind your back.

I respectfully disagree - strongly - with this sentiment. The unfortunate reality is that one could be "all in" to a marriage - and then it does not work out. That is true of marriages in the U.S., about half of which end in divorce; in the U.K. the divorce rate is lower but still staggeringly high. A prenuptial agreement is therefore a prudent safeguard even if one thinks they are prepared to be with their partner for the rest of their life.  

Quote

In a lot of areas, what you bring into the marriage is yours, but what you make during the marriage is both of yours. 

Not every jurisdiction follows a marital property doctrine: I do not think the U.K. recognizes marital or community property. 

Quote

What if you have kids, she stays home with them a few years and puts her career on the backburner in favor of yours  - a prenup in areas where the split is equitable based on financial contribution - you could leave her destitute.

That would be bad, but that is a generalization that prenuptial agreements are to be avoided based on one prenuptial scheme in a set of circumstances that probably do not apply here. If OP's partner thinks that what-if is plausible then she probably should not sign a prenup with that scheme.

--

I mean no disrespect to you - I am just challenging your rebuttal of my advice. 

Edited by Pleasedonot5
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My husband wanted us to be married because we had a baby on the way after living together for about 7 years.  He thinks parents should be married, for the security of the child.  Kind of an old fashioned view now.  I was content to live with him but I truly love him and had no problem agreeing to marry him.

Back in the olden days my great grandparents lived together.  Gr grandma had 3 kids from a previous marriage where that man had died.  The gr grandparents lived together for a long time, raising the kids, until they discovered if he died, gr grandma would get no money or anything else as she was not his legal wife.  So they got married and she got his estate when he died.  Life is different now so it's not necessary to be married to inherit someone's things and money.

If I found myself single again I wouldn't to get. married, because, why?  I'm not having anymore kids, my kids are grown.  I could live with someone but see no need to get married.

Also, you dont need to spend $20K on a wedding!  City Hall is cheap!  Whatever you decide to do, see a lawyer and have a plan.

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I totally agree with you. What does a legally binding contract have to do with two people that love each other? 
 

it costs thousands upon thousands of pounds, for what exactly? 
 

money that could be used to benefit your life in much greater ways in my opinion 

also as you say if you were to split further down the line it is even more of a mess than would have been & you are likely to loose half, if not more of any of your assets owed. 
 

this is just my way of thinking & it will probably turn a few peoples backs up but each to their own

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Well here in Australia we have a law that if you live with a partner for six months, you are legally bound as de facto and have nearly all the same rights as a married couple. In the case of a split you are entitled to half of everything they own. So yes there is no need to get actually married on paper but to some people it really means something. To me for example and to thousands of other people who got married.

My opinion is that in terms of these kinds of things, it's not right or wrong to want or not want something like kids or marriage. People are allowed to have their own feelings about it and those feelings are VALID. 

So OP I see nothing wrong with your feeling and opinion on marriage but there's a problem. Your partner that you want to buy a house with actually wants to get married. I'm not speaking for everyone but personally I would be resentful if someone I was in a relationship with didn't want to get married. I've always wanted this so why shouldn't I have it? I don't have to be with someone who doesn't want marriage because plenty of people do. So I would most likely break up with them.

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