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Jibralta
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On 6/20/2021 at 11:46 AM, Jibralta said:

I get so tongue tied trying to discuss these things with my mom because she denies that she and my sister are being unreasonable.

And she will get undoubtedly get upset and say that I'm totally wrong and being completely selfish, and it will be a huge aggravation.

My boyfriend and I have been discussing strategies for handling my mom (and sister) for the last couple of weeks, but I don't feel any closer to a solution.

My mom is so good at guilting and manipulating. It feels hopeless.

I separated out these last few statements you made about the situation... if you reread them slowly, it just sounds so horrible the stress they obviously cause you (and your boyfriend). 

Spending 2 weeks with him trying to figure out how to handle these two people, strategizing etc... we used to do things like that, literally agonizing months in advance about a birth or whatever, to try to minimize the drama they'd cause and it hit me last time how while we were worried/stressed/agonizing over plans etc, they weren't worrying about it at all!  Yet here we were, being miserable trying to nail down a militarized plan for how to handle his parents to make the birth easier.  And our plans never worked, they still got their way, caused drama etc.  All that stress on our part was literally for nothing.

My point is that you're spending a lot of your time trying to walk on eggshells for your family, yet they are blissfully uncaring how they affect you and your boyfriend. 

And from the point of view of the partner, it isn't fair to your boyfriend that he's being dragged through this as well.  It really wasn't fair to me that I had to feel so insanely stressed out during pregnancies, before a birth of a child, come up with elaborate plans and everything to try to minimize the drama his parents would cause, only to see them still be able to cause drama or hurt our kids.  You have to think about your boyfriend's experience, too, in the weeks of stressing out before meeting them, he's being negatively impacted by them.  If you had kids, you'd see it there, too.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/21/2021 at 12:28 PM, itsallgrand said:

It can be so hard to seperate our parent's stuff from ourselves sometimes. There's that part from when we were younger and depended on them so much to love us and take care of us and show us how to navigate difficult feelings

That's the really interesting thing. Being raised by someone like my mom has affected my thought process. Sure, I didn't accept everything she said and did. There was lots that I disagreed with, believe me. But there is so much bullsht that I just absorbed and assumed was right and true because it was all I knew since infancy. I discover these things more and more as I get older.

For example, until I was 32 years old, it never even occurred to me that my mom might be abnormal, that she could actually be mentally ill. That revelation that I might be the normal one and that my mom might be the fcked up one occurred to me on my very last day of therapy when I was in graduate school (the timing was kind of cool).

After that, I started reading about codependence. Not because I thought my mom was codependent, but because I kept selecting loser guys for boyfriends and wanted to figure out why. I was reading the book in the back seat of my mom's car, on the way down to my sister's house (Yes, getting dragged to her sister's by my mom lol. Yes, 32+ years old, still a kid). It suddenly occurred to me that they fit the dynamic perfectly. I thought, Is that possible?

In the years since then, bits and pieces of information that I've learned fit into into place I think, Oh. It's like the prison of my mom's psychology is slowly crumbling away. It wasn't a cage, it was solid walls that prevented me from really seeing anything.

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Lyric snapshot from the song "Already Gone" by the Eagles:

"So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains
And we never even know we have the key"

One of my all time favorite songs. Because it's true!

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She expends all of her energy to ensure that she appears normal. Her appearance and actions are impeccable. 

Growing up, she never said "I'm the most normal person," but she painted a picture of herself as normal through her criticisms. Recently, like within the last week or so, I realized that I can come up with a list of criticisms she's made of other people that are true about herself. 

"People are going to judge you."

This is the one that I had the revelation about. She used to harp on me about it all the time. She couldn't convince me to care about what other people thought, so then so she harped on me for not caring, "I know you don't care, but people really are going to judge you."

The revalation happened when I was talking to my therapist about it. Suddenly it clicked: How can my mom possibly know what other people are going to think??? Is she fricking God? Is she the standard by which all others measure themselves?

No.

So why does she claim this knowledge? Because she's frickin abnormal and possibly crazy. Normal people don't think things like that.

Here are some others that I can think of off hand. The ones where she says, "I'm not like that" are the ones where you better where a flack jacket if you dare to disagree:

  • Your father was passive aggressive. I'm not passive aggressive.
  • I hate liars. I never lie.
  • You always have to be right.
  • You're selfish.
  • Joanne is so nosy.
  • Your Aunt Mary is so competitive. She wants to be the favorite aunt.

 

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1 minute ago, Jibralta said:

Because she's frickin abnormal and possibly crazy. Normal people don't think things like that.

Pecisely Jib.  So why torment your mind any further.  To what end?  Do you want to go crazy yourself?

Please do not. 

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4 minutes ago, Jibralta said:

She expends all of her energy to ensure that she appears normal. Her appearance and actions are impeccable. 

Growing up, she never said "I'm the most normal person," but she painted a picture of herself as normal through her criticisms. Recently, like within the last week or so, I realized that I can come up with a list of criticisms she's made of other people that are true about herself. 

"People are going to judge you."

This is the one that I had the revelation about. She used to harp on me about it all the time. She couldn't convince me to care about what other people thought, so then so she harped on me for not caring, "I know you don't care, but people really are going to judge you."

The revalation happened when I was talking to my therapist about it. Suddenly it clicked: How can my mom possibly know what other people are going to think??? Is she fricking God? Is she the standard by which all others measure themselves?

No.

So why does she claim this knowledge? Because she's frickin abnormal and possibly crazy. Normal people don't think things like that.

Here are some others that I can think of off hand. The ones where she says, "I'm not like that" are the ones where you better where a flack jacket if you dare to disagree:

  • Your father was passive aggressive. I'm not passive aggressive.
  • I hate liars. I never lie.
  • You always have to be right.
  • You're selfish.
  • Joanne is so nosy.
  • Your Aunt Mary is so competitive. She wants to be the favorite aunt.

 

Jib, insecure people do this all.the.time. They think about it obsessively. They are constantly judging and measuring themselves against other people, but they judge themselves more harshly than any critic ever could. They live in a self created hell.

So when she sees that you don't care, it drives her crazy. She is jealous of you. She'd love to have your attitude, but she can't. That can lead to a desire to destroy that which she can't have. Thus the constant drip drip drip of "you ARE being judged, you know." In a way, just like you can't understand her psyche, she can't understand yours either. In her mind you should care and that you don't makes you abnormal. 

This is why I said, that if you are not ready to end the relationship, then you NEED to learn to smile and nod and not rub your self confidence in her face. So, "but Jiiiib people wiiiiillll juuuudge you (why aren't you terrified of that like me? I love you but I hate you for that.)" and you go, "Oh mom, yeah it's awful isn't it? Scary what people will do." Validate her bs or at the very least figure out how be more neutral with her and live in peace. 

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Like a few others mentioned, the best way to change another is to change yourself. Respond differently than you ever have before. Take them by surprise. Upset the constant, familiar loop. Worth a try.

I've never read one good thing about owning a time share. I wouldn't buy it. Here's one excerpt from an article: Many people think that buying a timeshare is a great deal, saving them money over booking a hotel room. In fact, in many cases, if you factor in the additional costs that come with timeshares, like special assessments, maintenance fees, taxes, and the like, you'll find that renting a room in a similar resort ends up being cheaper.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/21/2021 at 1:54 PM, DancingFool said:

Your mom won't admit to being wrong, so pointing out to her when she is wrong, is both pointless and picking a fight you don't need. Unless it's something imminently harmful to her, you need to learn to step back and leave her be. Smile and nod and learn how to be more neutral with them. The more you can step back and just smile and nod and let them be, the easier your relationship with them will be.

This even goes to your sister's power play over "making" you come visit her. It's only fun because you hate it and show it and argue. Like Lost suggested, take over control by offering and suggesting yourself. It will be like deflating a balloon. Granted, it won't be a one time fix because just like you know them, they know you and know how to push your buttons. Your changed demeanor will get pushed and challenged and it will be challenging for you to learn not to react and stay the course.

Actually, this is the tact I usually take. 

When I said:

On 6/20/2021 at 12:46 PM, Jibralta said:

I have stopped hoping that my mom will somehow grow out if it.

What I really should have said was that I've realized that trying to discuss the issue with her is pointless. I haven't mentioned it in more than five years. The last time she brought it up to me, I told her I'd get back to her and then never did. 

Sometimes I successfully outsmart them, and sometimes they outsmart me. We've been playing this game for decades. I didn't argue with my mom about visiting my sister. I made a counter offer that she chose to ignore. Like you said, she knows just how to push my buttons. But I'm not giving in. I can be a passive aggressive fck, too. So now my mom and I haven't communicated more than a few sentences to each other since May 28th lol.

Frankly, the perpetual chess game is annoying. But luckily, I don't have to play it very often. They both now live 1,000 miles away from me, and I hardly see them. I haven't been down there in almost three years. I just make a pleasant phone call to my mom here and there. My sister doesn't return my calls or texts, so I just don't bother with her anymore.

This vacation thing was a sneak attack, which is why I've got a bee in my bonnet at the moment. And I have to see her in a week, so the pressure is mounting a bit.

The fact that they're now neighbors, seeing each other regularly makes their strategizing a lot more intense. I could hang out with my mom when she still lived up here. But she changes when she's with my sister. Dealing with the two of them like this is exhausting.

They're so weird, I swear.

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22 minutes ago, DancingFool said:

So, "but Jiiiib people wiiiiillll juuuudge you (why aren't you terrified of that like me? I love you but I hate you for that.)" and you go, "Oh mom, yeah it's awful isn't it? Scary what people will do." Validate her bs or at the very least figure out how be more neutral with her and live in peace. 

No, I get what you are saying and I agree. But this has been my environment since infancy, so anything else feels a little unreal, even though I know it's there. 

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I say stage a "daring commando raid" by visiting your sister at an inopportune time, say at 3AM without your mother.

Maybe not a great idea, but maybe you should just bail on the whole trip? Work suddenly called you in, or your boyfriend decided to take up underwater basket weaving and the week of vacation is the only time he can practice. Or more simply put, if the sudden change in timing is upsetting your apple cart then you may want to wriggle out of it, even if the wriggling is blatant.

 

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1 hour ago, Jibralta said:

This vacation thing was a sneak attack, which is why I've got a bee in my bonnet at the moment. And I have to see her in a week, so the pressure is mounting a bit.

The unfortunate thing is... this will keep on happening as long as you allow it to.  

1 hour ago, Jibralta said:

I can be a passive aggressive fck, too. So now my mom and I haven't communicated more than a few sentences to each other since May 28th lol.

See when my husband started being passive aggressive back last Christmas, I frankly told him how that kind of thing isn't good or healthy for him.  We're extremely honest with each other, and watching his character slip into something I know he isn't, was not fun.  It isn't good to stoop to their level... it hurts you more than it does them... you know....

 

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Quote

This vacation thing was a sneak attack, which is why I've got a bee in my bonnet at the moment. And I have to see her in a week, so the pressure is mounting a bit.

What did you mean by a sneak attack though?  I thought in your original post you said y'all always give in and drive the extra 4 hours, after already driving for 13 hours (!!!).  Was there something else specific that was the, "sneaky," part that I missed?

 

14 hours ago, Andrina said:

Here's one excerpt from an article: Many people think that buying a timeshare is a great deal, saving them money over booking a hotel room

I think it would be a great idea to just start vacationing somewhere else :D even if it's just a different condo/hotel.  That would solve the problem of the timeshare thing where your mom has control over your vacations because she knows when you've reserved it. 

All of that is beyond controlling, btw.... normal parents aren't like this.  I say that to assure you that this is designed to give you, or whoever rebels against the control, a headache.  If you went with the flow and did everything they want, it'd be fine.  But I'm sure you have very good reasons to not want to stay at your sisters from bad past experiences, so asserting yourself is hard because you'll try to get out of their control ring and they hate that.

I guess I'm confused though what you really need help with?  The other family members should be able to stay out of it **unless** your mom is the type to gossip and whine/cry to them about you - will she do this you think?

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5 hours ago, maritalbliss86 said:

What did you mean by a sneak attack though?  I thought in your original post you said y'all always give in and drive the extra 4 hours, after already driving for 13 hours (!!!).  Was there something else specific that was the, "sneaky," part that I missed?

You only missed it because I didn't fully explain the scenario. Even thinking about it brings me aggravation. Although, when I type it out, it may not seem that bad. 

I haven't used the time share in a couple of years because:

  1. the last time I used it, my mom (and her friends!!) drove up and spent the whole week in the other time share (which is in the same building). So it became a family vacation plus, instead of just me and Arnold spending some relaxation time together.
  2. we had to drive an hour to meet my sister for lunch. She didn't want to drive the full 2 hours to see us because she was pregnant. Even though she could stay the night in either timeshare, she didn't want to. So, we met her halfway. Probably more than halfway. 

So, in 2019 we had a secret staycation during the summer. I also dodged going down there for Christmas in 2019, by lying and saying that I had no vacation time. In 2020 we had a forced staycation over the summer due to Covid. And we were also saved from travelling down there for Christmas in 2020 because of Covid. 

So, now I haven't seen my mom for 2 years. And I actually did want to see her last summer because she had a milestone birthday. So, if she showed up at the timeshare this summer, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. And that's what she said she'd do. I thought, Great. We'll see them, and my sister will probably come up with my nephew (who I haven't seen since he was born).

But, no.

Instead--and I guess maybe I should have known--I get the text from my mom trying to rearrange our vacation time for my sister's convenience. I didn't even bother to ask if my sister refused to come, and I don't know if my mom is still coming. But I'm not going to ask that either. I am not in the loop with these things, and I am not going to beg to be in the loop. 

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5 hours ago, maritalbliss86 said:

I guess I'm confused though what you really need help with? 

Don't worry about it. I'll figure out how to help myself.

5 hours ago, maritalbliss86 said:

The other family members should be able to stay out of it **unless** your mom is the type to gossip and whine/cry to them about you - will she do this you think?

No, my mom never gossips about things that happen within our family unit because she wants everything to look perfect from the outside. 

As for my other family members, what 'should' happen and what actually does happen have nothing to do with each other. I have no idea how they will respond if things blow up between my mother, my sister, and me. But I don't want them getting involved.

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For what it's worth I think you have to make a decision about how you are going to handle this and go with the consequences.

I also have a messed up family dynamic... mostly being controlled by guilt, obligation and not wanting to hurt anyones feelings. 

So I get it.

But here are your choices:

1. be miserable leading up to and during this visit to keep them all comfortable 

or

2. deal with the guilt etc of telling them flat out no.

I know for me, I've decided next time I'm in a similar situation I'm doing my own thing and everyone will just have to deal with it.

It's going to start with statements like- I will let you know my plans.

Then - I'm available at this time and can be at this place.

And if anyone calls me on it, I'm going to say sorry youre offended. but this works best for me. 

I just can't take it anymore and I'm tired of feeling like their little puppet that just goes along because it works for them.  

I've made a decision and it is what it is. They know why it is. They know what they do.

Will feelings be hurt? Yes. But I'm feeling like if I set the precedent, it will make things better in the long run. 

I'm willing to bear this. And until you are, you will be controlled.  That's how they do it. They act as they always do and they count on you to do as you've always done. 

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2 hours ago, Jibralta said:

Although, when I type it out, it may not seem that bad. 

I think unexpectedly crashing your vacation is pretty bad 🤔.  

 

2 hours ago, Jibralta said:

Instead--and I guess maybe I should have known--I get the text from my mom trying to rearrange our vacation time for my sister's convenience. I didn't even bother to ask if my sister refused to come, and I don't know if my mom is still coming. But I'm not going to ask that either. I am not in the loop with these things, and I am not going to beg to be in the loop. 

One of things my mentor has really helped me with this is frankly telling me I needed to mourn the loss of what could have been. 

Not getting to know your nephew because your sister is a witch... your mom being closer to her and closing you out... all of that is so so painful at some level... allowing yourself to mourn it may take time, but I think you'll feel better (and maybe you've already mourned all this already).

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Posted (edited)
On 6/22/2021 at 5:15 PM, boltnrun said:

Lyric snapshot from the song "Already Gone" by the Eagles:

"So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains
And we never even know we have the key"

One of my all time favorite songs. Because it's true!

So true.

Also true: The story of the tiger, Mohini. The moral of this story is that sometimes the door of the cage is wide open and paradise awaits. But you are so used to living in a prison that you never bother to step through the door.

And yet another scenario is that sometimes you don't realize that what you thought was the world is just a cage. The real world is beyond the cage, out of sight. You've been living in the Matrix lol.

That's where I am right now, still in the process of identifying the cage that I'm in, and separating it from reality. It's all illusions.

I think that I'm pretty good at flying the coop when I can clearly see the confining elements. I'm a fugitive from a couple different prisons already. But only recently have I discovered that there is yet another cage imprisoning me.

For 32 of 44 years, I thought my mom was normal and I that was weird. I lived in a world where normal sucked, and I just accepted it. 

I'm getting out of here. But this has been my 'normal' for so long that every step I take outside of this prison feels like very shaky ground. I can't tell if the ground beneath my feet will support me, or if.... I don't know? It's the unknown.

Edited by Jibralta
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54 minutes ago, Jibralta said:

I'm getting out of here. But this has been my 'normal' for so long that every step I take outside of this prison feels like very shaky ground. I can't tell if the ground beneath my feet will support me, or if.... I don't know? It's the unknown.

It will, assuredly, Jib.  And that great wide ground will be far more solid and reassuring that what you are standing on now.  Good luck!

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You took the leap professionally and are thriving in a positive environment.

Now, I know family issues are not the same thing.  But just wanted to give an example where you stepped out of that cage and are doing quite well.

Also, I would suggest reading up on codependence (if you haven't already).  Codependents try to do everything to please others to their own detriment because they fear being unloved or "abandoned".  What they don't realize is the other person will survive if they don't leap to do everything they want them to do.  And if the other person gets angry or yells or accuses, the world will not collapse and swallow them up.  The sun will still rise!

My relationship with my mother was very complex.  On one hand, she taught me everything I know about being independent and self-sufficient and strong on my own.  On the other hand, she said terrible, harmful things to me to break me down and make me feel terrible about myself.  She was clinically depressed the last few years of her life and tried everything she could to make me feel guilty for not making her my sole focus (even though I was a young wife and new mother).  I had to realize whatever feelings she had were not mine to own, but hers.  I still struggle back and forth between being grateful to her for what she taught me and being angry she did so much to try to bring me down.  She passed away many years ago but I still think about her everyday. 

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  • 1 month later...

Even though I haven't posted here, this has still been on my mind. The problem is, it's difficult to organize my thoughts about it. The problem is so deeply rooted in my entire life's experience. A lot of times, when I think about writing, my thoughts get all twisted around and I give up before I start. But I keep thinking about it.

In early July, I went to dinner with my mom, stepfather, and boyfriend. My mom had two martinis, which is A LOT for her. She is not much of a drinker. At the end of dinner, she started to needle me about driving down to visit my sister.

Eventually, she said, "Do you not want to drive down there?" I said, "No, I don't want to drive down there. I drive down there every fcking time. Why can't she drive up?" My mom started to give me the whole, "But she's got the baby" argument, but that didn't fly. Unless it takes 26 hours to pack the baby, I don't want to hear it.

My boyfriend had strict instructions not to capitulate to her, and he didn't. Eventually, my mom appealed to my stepfather, "Tell her that I don't want to argue..." I was glad to see that he seemed to agree with me. He said, "Let it go." and I was more happy to do so. It took a couple minutes to calm myself down, though lol. I'd gone from zero to fighting mad in the blink of an eye.

On 6/24/2021 at 10:57 AM, boltnrun said:

Also, I would suggest reading up on codependence (if you haven't already).  Codependents try to do everything to please others to their own detriment because they fear being unloved or "abandoned".  What they don't realize is the other person will survive if they don't leap to do everything they want them to do.

I don't think it's codependence. I've read extensively about it, because I once thought it could be codependence. It's so similar, in many ways. Especially the fear of abandonment and the catastrophic thinking. But it's really just the aftermath of abuse.

I'm off-balance in some ways, but I am not a caretaker or people-pleaser, not even with my mom and my sister. They disparage me for that and it's not fair. But I'm not kissing their asses for anything, especially when I think they don't deserve it. That's a constant power struggle between us, what they think I owe them and what I refuse to give.

When I read about narcissism, I recognize so many of those behaviors in my mom. Sometimes, I am watching a video about it and I wish that I could stop time and make everybody see what I'm seeing. Like, Look! That's what she did! That's what she does! That's what it was like growing up!!  

I can't really say so much about my sister. I just can't see her clearly enough. Maybe we're too close in age. 

Anyway, they're crashing my vacation again. lol.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Vacation is coming right up, and as I said previously, my mom is crashing it again.

There are a couple of things that I should mention about our dinner conversation back in July:

1. I found out that my mom never talked to my sister before asking Arnold and me to drive down to visit her (my sister). My mom took that whole thing upon herself. I immediately understood that this was because I am the easier person to manipulate. The reason for this is very ironic, and a discussion for a later date. 

2. Shortly after my mom and stepdad returned home, my mom called me and officially 'released' me from any 'obligation' to drive down and see my sister in the middle of my vacation. The aggravation of the 26-hour roundtrip drive was fresh in my mom's mind from her recent visit, and this gave her a rare dose of empathy for Arnold and me. 

But my mom was still intent on me and my sister seeing each other during my vacation. So, she entered into the arduous bargaining process with my sister and got her to come up for a couple of days. And of course my mom needs an entourage, so my mom's two friends are tagging along.

This is how my mom takes control of a situation without being asked. You can fight it, but she'll have a massive temper tantrum resulting in insult and injury to all parties involved. So, I pick my battles carefully.

image.thumb.png.a213fdfc58310f1587d4edba816566f1.png

Notice my mom's campaign about Arnold and me having plenty of time for ourselves. This is how she softens the blow. 

What I think is interesting is how my mom and my sister turned this into a win-win for themselves. My mom has recently developed a distain for our timeshares that she's never had before. Our units have full, 'REAL' kitchens. They are just older. But in recent years it seems they are no longer good enough for my mom, or for my sister. So, my sister is renting a unit in the newer building across the street, and my mom gets to move in once my sister leaves--that is probably how my sister got out of staying the whole week. My mom and my sister are true allies, even when they are at loggerheads.

At some point between then and now, my mom called and proposed that we have breakfast on the Sunday after we arrive, and dinner on Tuesday, and then we can be on our own for the rest of our vacation. My boyfriend and I agreed to this schedule, even though my mom is planning our agenda like we are teenagers. It seemed like we were getting off easy. 

But I guess I always suspected that my mom would have one last trick up her sleeve, because I wasn't terribly surprised to find this email waiting in my inbox when we got home from dinner last night. It was addressed to both me and Arnold, which I found aggravating. It's one thing to guilt trip me, but leave my boyfriend out of it:

image.png.660b91d639d008044083adf396ba868f.png

I woke up this morning thinking about it, and it made me so angry for so many reasons that aren't even broached in this thread. It dredged up many bones of contention. I thought about talking it over with Arnold, but I know his position on this. It is the same as mine. So I responded as delicately as I could, knowing my mom's propensity for rage attacks lol:

image.png.7169dd87dbc5c1b6bccc68922597943c.png

Edited by Jibralta
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Posted (edited)

My mom finally replied 15 minutes ago. More guilt. This time making my sister out to be the martyr as well. Typical. 

image.png.dd01835101d7039ec56397ba3b6ea8d2.png

I replied:

image.png.0580b4d2e950af6bbc58e06a6f0dd8a1.png

I expect that when we get down there, my mom's next move will be to feign confusion about whether we decided to ask my sister to dinner or not. It never ends lol. But my boyfriend and I plan to have a united front on that account: NO.

Edited by Jibralta
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