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My ex/friend won't pay me back


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Posted (edited)

Last year I was in a strict COVID lockdown for about eight months. In May-June of 2020 the lockdown was briefly eased off when COVID briefly went away/improved. I was really lonely and looking to meet new people. I'm bisexual and I met a man online who was also bisexual and we had quite a few things in common. I didn't really want to date him because he's polyamorous and I'm not and he also had two tween/teen daughters and had a vasectomy and didn't want kids. He was also married but separated from his ex wife. I want marriage and kids. I was open to friendship or something casual though. I do actually have some friends I met from online dating and I especially want to make friends with other GLBTIQ people.

Anyway, our meeting actually escalated to dating/seeing each other. I had a weird and bad feeling about it at the time and couldn't exactly put my finger on it, but now looking back on it I think maybe this person is some kind of narcissist. I'm not a doctor of course so it's not up to me to diagnose, but something was definitely going on where I'm pretty sure he showed narcissistic behaviours.

He came on quite strong at the start and after only about three weeks of seeing each other said he was in love with me and started referring to me as his partner. I knew that he was very liberal in terms of his polyamory and he said he genuinely can love many different people. So I guess initially I just thought he's a very lovey dovey sort of person, especially as he's quite emotional and very open with his emotions.

He seemed really into me and messaged and called me every day. But I began to notice that in texting and also all conversations in general, he wanted pretty much all conversation to be only about him. He basically never asked me hardly anything about myself at all and when I tried talking about myself, he talked over me and seemed bored.

It was to the point that for example he'd do things like...We'd be in bed at night and I would try to talk about something. He'd interrupt me and say: "Sorry love, I'm so tired, I can't talk and I need to sleep now". But then he'd actually begin talking about himself, his kids, his life, show pictures of his kids. It looked like he just wanted me to listen and like whatever he's saying, for example compliment photos of him and his kids. But then when I tried to say something about myself, he'd cut me off again and say: "Hun I did say I'm really tired and I can't talk and need to sleep now". Or sometimes when I was leaving his place and was ready to go, he'd talk about himself. Then if I tried to talk about me, he'd say: "Well I guess you better get going, I know you were heading off and I have a few things to do".

Also sometimes he'd act moody and a bit snappy with me or like I annoyed him, but I wasn't actually doing anything that I thought could actually annoy him. I think part of me continuing to see him was that I was really infatuated with him and thought I was in love with him too. I probably had a case of cabin fever and a bit of Stockholm Syndrome because the COVID laws were that we could only see our intimate partner and nobody else. So for a number of months he was very literally the only person I saw.

Anyway, I tried talking to him about how I feel upset that he snaps at me or doesn't seem interested in anything about me or my life. And he said something along the lines of: "I don't understand why you're saying this because you do all exactly the same things. You talk a lot and you interrupt me and I snapped at you coz you were interrupting me". I can see in hindsight now that it was probably gaslighting but at the time I was actually confused and in a very low state due to COVID isolation. I live alone and my job was cancelled so I was alone 24/7 and this person was literally my only company and the only source of any love and affection. In real life I mean. I did talk to my friends and my Mum virtually all the time in lockdown. I was also confused because he messaged and called me every day. He said he was really in love with me and I'm so gorgeous and he loves my company so much. He did introduce me to his ex wife and children and said I'm his partner and things like that. His children were actually really nice and liked me a lot.

Anyway, I won't talk about it too much more but about six months ago I actually ended it with this person. We didn't speak that much since but just liked each other's posts on Facebook a bit. I invited him and his children to my Birthday and they were going to come, but didn't end up making it.

I bought two tickets to see the musical Chess and invited my Mum to go as a gift for her 60th Birthday. She loves musical theatre, but decided not to go due to COVID and also not being interested in this particular musical.

That guy reached out to me asking would I like to come over to play board games with him and his children. I said I would. He sings and he had actually told me that he loves the musical Chess and that he used to sings the sings from it in a choir. So I asked him if he wanted to go with me and said the ticket cost $160+ with booking fees and he'd need to pay me back. He said he'd love to go and that yes he'd pay me back and to send him my bank account.

We went out for dinner before the theatre show. He was 30 minutes late to dinner but I knew traffic in the city was really bad and he was driving. At dinner he mostly did talk about himself and didn't ask me anything about me. I tried talking to him about how I had a falling out with a friend. He sided with what I was saying but kind of cut me off again by saying: "I think you should probably just stop talking about it and you should just move on". So that really ticked me off.

Anyway, we really enjoyed the musical and he said he was so happy that I invited him and he was having such a good time with me. He said I should come over to his place anytime to visit him and his children and his guinea pigs.

The next morning I sent him a really nice text message saying I was glad he came out with me, had a good time with him and looking forward to seeing him and his daughters soon. I also sent my bank account to transfer the money. He ignored my message and he didn't send the money. A week went by and I messaged him on Facebook. I sent a nice message again asking how his week has been, has his relative recovered from being in hospital that he told me about. And I said, I don't mean to be a nag but could he transfer me the $160. He said: "Sorry love, been a busy week. I'll pay you today."

Then another week went by and I didn't receive the money in my bank account, I checked thoroughly. So had been about 2-3 weeks. I texted him politely again saying I'm starting to get a bit anxious because I do need the money and could he please send it. He literally ignored my text and now it's been another week and he hasn't transferred the money.

I now realise I made a big mistake to invite him to the musical, but I had nobody to go with. I knew he was self-absorbed but I had no idea he wouldn't pay me back and he'd be messing me around like this. I don't know if to keep messaging him about it? Or just to kiss the money goodbye and delete him from Facebook? I also knew his ex wife a little bit and she seemed nice. I don't really want to get her involved but do you think I could message her to ask what's going on? I just really want my money because it's $160. He just ignores my messages and doesn't pay back, so what do I do?

 

Edited by Tinydance
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Hi Tiny..

I would keep asking him until he pays you back. Who cares if he thinks you're a nag! He's a mooch that owes you 160+ bucks!

Don't ask his ex wife. You will never get the money and he'll claim he would have paid you back but you went to his ex.  Which makes no sense but consider the source.

And lesson learned here... get the money upfront. 

Text him every day. keep telling him you need the money and how long you have been waiting! 

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13 minutes ago, Lambert said:

Hi Tiny..

I would keep asking him until he pays you back. Who cares if he thinks you're a nag! He's a mooch that owes you 160+ bucks!

Don't ask his ex wife. You will never get the money and he'll claim he would have paid you back but you went to his ex.  Which makes no sense but consider the source.

And lesson learned here... get the money upfront. 

Text him every day. keep telling him you need the money and how long you have been waiting! 

Well the thing is, this person is actually 50 years old. He works full-time as a software developer and he owns his own home and does share the financial support of his children with his ex wife. So I'm pretty sure that he actually has the money. I've never actually had this issue with anyone ever before. I know he seems very self-absorbed but he wasn't a total stranger to me or anything. I didn't ask for the money up front because I honestly thought he would just pay me back. Now I can see he probably is a narcissist and a total a-hole. Because after like 2-3 weeks I texted him saying I'm getting quite anxious that he doesn't reply and he doesn't transfer the money, but he obviously really doesn't care. I even sent him my Pay Pal, where he just has to copy and paste my E-mail address into Pay Pal and it's just a one second thing. I probably won't message him every day, but I'll message him like once a week. I don't want to get his ex wife involved but I deserve to get my money back so if he just continues to ignore my messages then I may need to contact her only as a last resort.

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24 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Well the thing is, this person is actually 50 years old. He works full-time as a software developer and he owns his own home and does share the financial support of his children with his ex wife. So I'm pretty sure that he actually has the money. I've never actually had this issue with anyone ever before. I know he seems very self-absorbed but he wasn't a total stranger to me or anything. I didn't ask for the money up front because I honestly thought he would just pay me back. Now I can see he probably is a narcissist and a total a-hole. Because after like 2-3 weeks I texted him saying I'm getting quite anxious that he doesn't reply and he doesn't transfer the money, but he obviously really doesn't care. I even sent him my Pay Pal, where he just has to copy and paste my E-mail address into Pay Pal and it's just a one second thing. I probably won't message him every day, but I'll message him like once a week. I don't want to get his ex wife involved but I deserve to get my money back so if he just continues to ignore my messages then I may need to contact her only as a last resort.

ugh! I understand what you mean. sorry for what you're going thru. hope he sends it! 

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I'm sorry this happened to you, Tinydance. 

I hope you will be repaid.  I sense he doesn't have any intentions to repay you.  Since messaging him repeatedly is futile, I would kiss the money goodbye, block and delete him permanently.  Good riddance and consider him history.  I hope in the future, this won't ever happen to you again.  I'm sorry for your bad experience. 

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7 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I also knew his ex wife a little bit and she seemed nice. I don't really want to get her involved but do you think I could message her to ask what's going on?

Do not do this, no. It's inappropriate, and what can she do for you? She can't make him pay. She doesn't control his money. 

Tinydance, you need better boundaries for yourself. This guy was a dolt from the beginning and you continued to try to get him to like you and value you. He showed you over and over and over that he does not really care about you. Your mistake was ignoring all the red flags. 

Will you get the $160 back? Probably not. Take this as the price for an important lesson for yourself: stay away from people who very clearly show you that they don't care. 

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7 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

Do not do this, no. It's inappropriate, and what can she do for you? She can't make him pay. She doesn't control his money. 

Tinydance, you need better boundaries for yourself. This guy was a dolt from the beginning and you continued to try to get him to like you and value you. He showed you over and over and over that he does not really care about you. Your mistake was ignoring all the red flags. 

Will you get the $160 back? Probably not. Take this as the price for an important lesson for yourself: stay away from people who very clearly show you that they don't care. 

Agree with all of this!

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If I were you, I would send him a registered letter informing him that if he does not pay the amount by a certain date, you will file a complaint with Small Claims Court, or the equivalent in Australia. There is a written trail in which he recognizes the debt and agrees to pay, so you have evidence. 

The filing with Small Claims does not necessitate a lawyer, you can do it yourself (at least here, and I live in one administrative-intense country), so I guess the procedure is even lighter in Australia.

Of course, he will play the victim "oh poor me, how could you do that to me", but the fact is that he robbed you of your money. You were very clear with him that the ticket is not a gift. Do you have that stated in writing in your messages?

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I asked him if he wanted to go with me and said the ticket cost $160+ with booking fees and he'd need to pay me back. He said he'd love to go and that yes he'd pay me back 

Forget about it. You invited him, had a good time and this amount is quite insignificant.

You can't sue people because you're upset with them. Or on principle.

Is this amount really worth the headaches? If you can afford it in the first place, I'm guessing it's not a life or death matter.

Maybe he agreed to pay you back, then didn't, so next time don't invite people out because you have an extra ticket, then expect them to pay.

Write it off. It's just unnecessary drama.

 

 

 

Edited by Wiseman2
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2 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Forget about it. You invited him, had a good time and this amount is quite insignificant.

You can't sue people because you're upset with them. Or on principle.

Is this amount really worth the headaches? If you can afford it in the first place, I'm guessing it's not a life or death matter.

Maybe he agreed to pay you back, then didn't, so next time don't invite people out because you have an extra ticket, then expect them to pay.

Write it off. It's just unnecessary drama.

 

 

 

 

Well actually I disagree. It wasn't like I just won free tickets or got a discount or something. I know I had two tickets and I wanted someone to go with me, but I actually have a lot of friends. The reason why I invited him was because he reached out to me himself asking me to come over for board games. He has told me in the past that he loves this particular musical and he used to sing songs from it in the choir. So I thought that maybe out of all the people I know, he might enjoy the show the most. I didn't say it was a gift at any point. I said to him that I have two tickets and they are $160 each. I said I understand it's expensive so that's OK if he didn't want to go. He said he'd love to go and willing to pay $160. Then he said send me your bank account details to transfer the money. This is in Australian dollars and over here it's a pretty decent amount of money. A lot of people can't afford to go to the theatre because it's quite expensive. I know that I did get the ticket originally to give as a gift to my Mum. The reason I spent so much is it was for my Mum's 60th Birthday. Normally I don't spend this much on theatre and very rarely go to the theatre. 

This has become a lot of drama because every other time everyone who owed me money paid me back, and this time he didn't. I assume when someone says they'll pay me, that they actually will. I'm only wanting to get back the money I was promised.

 

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13 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I bought two tickets to see the musical Chess and invited my Mum to go as a gift for her 60th Birthday. She loves musical theatre, but decided not to go due to COVID and also not being interested in this particular musical.

 I asked him if he wanted to go with me and said the ticket cost $160+ with booking fees and he'd need to pay me back.

Next time, work something better out, such as if you invite someone with your extra ticket, ask if they'll pick up the driving, dinner or something else. 

Alternatively ask your mother to reimburse you since she is the one that refused to go.

Don't send letters, don't contact his people, don't make a wild goose chase out of this.

It a lesson learned not to buy something for yourself (and your mother, which she doesn't like) then try to scalp the ticket on friends to compensate for your and your mother's decisions..

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Tinydance said:

he wanted pretty much all conversation to be only about him. He basically never asked me hardly anything about myself at all and when I tried talking about myself, he talked over me and seemed bored.

I fear that you encountered a conman, Tiny.  He also sounds most unpleasant. I have a feeling he won't pay you back, but do keep trying.

Btw, are there debt-collecting agencies where you are T?  Granted, the agency would take a cut out of the debt as their fee. 

Edited by LaHermes
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4 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Next time, work something better out, such as if you invite someone with your extra ticket, ask if they'll pick up the driving, dinner or something else. 

Alternatively ask your mother to reimburse you since she is the one that refused to go.

Don't send letters, don't contact his people, don't make a wild goose chase out of this.

It a lesson learned not to buy something for yourself (and your mother, which she doesn't like) then try to scalp the ticket on friends to compensate for your and your mother's decisions..

Well, I wasn't really going to contact his ex-wife unless he literally will never reply to messages anymore. As I said, I understand I shouldn't involve her in this but I am just being ignored. I don't actually think what I did was my fault. Yes I did have the two tickets but I was very clear that they cost $160 each and I'd like him to pay me back. 

For example, let's say you were selling something. Let's say it was a washing machine. You asked someone would they like to buy your washing machine. They said yes and they will send you the money. They took the washing machine but then they don't send the money and they just ignore all your messages. Would thus situation actually be your fault? Were you giving the washing machine as a gift or did they say they'd buy it and give the money?

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, MissCanuck said:

a dolt

You know many synonyms for this word 🙂 but he is a dolt indeed.

11 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

For example, let's say you were selling something. Let's say it was a washing machine. You asked someone would they like to buy your washing machine. They said yes and they will send you the money. They took the washing machine but then they don't send the money and they just ignore all your messages. Would thus situation actually be your fault? Were you giving the washing machine as a gift or did they say they'd buy it and give the money?

That's why we have contracts, for people who don't keep their word.

 

Edited by dias
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I agree with Miss Canuck -I am really trying not to be flippant at all - to some $5 means a lot, to others $5,000 really means not much and everything in between.  Please take this as a warning to you to know your boundaries better. If you lay out money for someone you know it's always a gift.  If they pay you back, great.  There's no reason to get a lawyer, there's no proof at all this was not a gift.  And he can take issue with  you "harassing" him because he'll say it was a gift.  No I don't care if you have texts.  It's something but not worth the aggravation. 

I used to go to theater with my friend who had a subscription.  When I committed to go I paypaled her the money that day.  No matter when the show was.  Never owed her ticket $.  She didn't ask for it right away but those are my values.

When Covid hit I had committed to two shows - totaling probably around $200 or so.  The first show was canceled -she repaid me.  The second show wasn't canceled but she told me that of course she'd pay me back if I didn't want to wait around for the rescheduling (Hamilton, sigh).  I didn't.  She told me she'd reimburse me -this was the more expensive ticket.  She then went on vacation.  No $.  It felt incredibly awkward but when a week after she got back she hadn't paid me I sent her a paypal request.  She paid me right away, and apologized that it slipped her mind.  My standard -that would have never ever slipped my mind.  I can't stand owing people $.  I'd have put it in my reminder list on my phone if I couldn't reimburse at that very moment.  And made sure it was repaid before she had the chance to follow up, for sure. 

I give you these details because everyone has different standards about this stuff.  You chose someone who had shown in other ways he was not a person of character or integrity.  Would that translate to money matters? Maybe maybe not.  But assume it would.  Assume unless you are paid in advance or unless it's someone you've done this sort of thing before with over and over and the person wants to keep doing it -keep going to theater, on vacations, etc - assume you are gifting the money. 

When my friend forgot it was a one time thing - I would pay her in advance again if we chose to do theater.  Because we have a history together that has this one minor "slip" - no biggie.  But I've been in other situations where I felt guilted into loaning some $ and each time I assumed I wouldn't get it back.  Mostly I did.  Or I rationalized (like my cleaning service who didn't refund me my prepaid cleaning or acknowledge it because covid happened -so I chalked it up to charity, helping a cleaning service who'd been loyal etc). 

This money stuff is tricky - you showed a lack of common sense in fronting the money and expecting it back.  You are a victim of him basically stealing your money. A victim with no recourse and a victim who will continue the victimization if you continue interacting with him or escalate it.  I'm really sorry this happened. 

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9 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Well, I wasn't really going to contact his ex-wife unless he literally will never reply to messages anymore. As I said, I understand I shouldn't involve her in this but I am just being ignored. I don't actually think what I did was my fault. Yes I did have the two tickets but I was very clear that they cost $160 each and I'd like him to pay me back. 

For example, let's say you were selling something. Let's say it was a washing machine. You asked someone would they like to buy your washing machine. They said yes and they will send you the money. They took the washing machine but then they don't send the money and they just ignore all your messages. Would thus situation actually be your fault? Were you giving the washing machine as a gift or did they say they'd buy it and give the money?

Completely different situation.

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12 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Well, I wasn't really going to contact his ex-wife unless he literally will never reply to messages anymore. As I said, I understand I shouldn't involve her in this but I am just being ignored.

What do you expect her to do about it, though?

She can't make him do anything and she doesn't control his finances. I don't really understand why you feel reaching out to her would resolve this. She has nothing to do with it. 

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12 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

I did have the two tickets but I was very clear that they cost $160 each and I'd like him to pay me back. 

You invited him and wanted payment later. Huge mistake. Either agree on payment before or barter (dinner etc,)

You're simply very angry that things ended on a sour note and he's ignoring you. Don't stalk.

You have no case. He will say it was a gift, and that certainly is believable since you two used the tickets together as a sort of a date.

No, it's not like selling an item on ebay, etc. In all those cases payment is upfront. You wanted a date, he offered to pay you for the ticket and stiffed you.

But your mother and your choice to buy an unwanted gift she refused is actually the root cause of all this.

 If you wanted money for the ticket, you would have sold it or asked for money upfront..

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The value of money is different depending on employment status. If one enjoys a hefty salary, a 160$ ticket loss could be written off as an "ouch" lesson learnt. But if one is unemployed, like Tiny says she is, a 160$ loss could be a sizeable loss.

Normally these kind of cowards, like Tiny's friend appears to be from her description, they do wizen up when they receive a letter from a court, or a registered letter that the debt will be claimed. It all depends on the written evidence that the ticket was not a gift and the conman agreed to pay.

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5 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

Ha, I do indeed!

I have encountered many in my life, and have a ready supply of vocabulary to descibe them now!

It's always useful to have a broad vocabulary when needed. Maybe our friend Tiny can embellish this dolt guy with a few synonyms lol

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Posted (edited)

Tiny,

  That money is gone and there is no way of getting it back.  I see this as a god investment since the issue will put him out of your life where he belongs.  You have many friends so you certainly don't need this type of person in your life.  He is no friend, in fact he is about the worst kind of friend you can have.

  Is this about the amount of money or is there something else driving your need to make him pay you back?

  What would you had done with the extra ticket if none of your friends wanted to go?

  Lost

Edited by lostandhurt
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I am not unemployed but I work in a somewhat low paid industry. I work in community services, which he knows. I do not own a home and I live alone and am renting and paying all my bills alone by myself. Which he also knows. I actually don't get money upfront from my friends because I trust them to be good and decent people. I go on trips, dinner, shows, movies with friends. Often one friend will book it, let's say it was an event or show. Then the friend (or me) will say: "You owe me XYZ amount for the XYZ thing". Then me or the friend will transfer the money via bank account or Pay Pal. You could call me stupid if I did this with some random off the Internet that I don't know or was selling something online and just mailed it to them without getting the money first. In this case it's very different. We know each other and we said we are friends. We are actually NOT dating. I ended it six months ago and since then we had not seen each other at all. Our only interaction was a little here and there on social media. I was not desperate for him to like me or date me because I hadn't talked to him much or sewn him for six months. I didn't buy the theatre ticket as a gift for him because I wanted to go on a date with him. I already had the second ticket and I asked him to go because he really likes this show. The AGREEMENT was he'd pay for it. You don't always need to get the money up front from friends because the belief is your friends are not (or shouldn't be) a-holes and will rip you off.

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28 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

You invited him and wanted payment later. Huge mistake. Either agree on payment before or barter (dinner etc,)

You're simply very angry that things ended on a sour note and he's ignoring you. Don't stalk.

You have no case. He will say it was a gift, and that certainly is believable since you two used the tickets together as a sort of a date.

No, it's not like selling an item on ebay, etc. In all those cases payment is upfront. You wanted a date, he offered to pay you for the ticket and stiffed you.

But your mother and your choice to buy an unwanted gift she refused is actually the root cause of all this.

 If you wanted money for the ticket, you would have sold it or asked for money upfront..

Look I usually agree with most of your advice but in this case sorry, I don't. I basically was selling the ticket, as you're suggesting. I asked him if he wanted to go and said the ticket is $160 and I understand if that's too expensive. That was implying I want the payment and if it's too expensive for him, he can decline. I didn't ask for money upfront because he's my FRIEND. From a stranger I would ask the money upfront because I wouldn't know them or anything about them. You are making these comments ad if I met a total stranger online and I just gave them the ticket without asking for the payment upfront. In that particular case yes, that would have been stupid. This is not actually the same situation. 

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