Door Open?

[2MonthsOff]

I am a (removed) year old male, she is a (removed) year old female (call her "C").  Both had one previous divorce (with other people), and I had a previous engagement that was cut short by death.

We met on match.com, and immediately hit it off into a serious, monogamous relationship - this was when we were both (removed).  It started with a magical text exchange in which the very first text she sent me after I sent her my number was "Hey 2MonthsOff.  Too late?" and I responded "Never" and we were off to the races.  After being single since 36, I had been in a large number of casual relationships and G was clearly different.  Brilliant, beautiful, complex, caring... I truly loved her.  She proposed to me and bought me a ring then.

She is of (removed) descent, and immigrated to the U.S. when she was (removed).  She therefore isn't fully grounded in either (removed) or American cultures, and I think this gives her a pervasive sense of non-belonging.  She carries a lot of responsibilities to her family, partly due to cultural reasons, and partly because she lives with her parents as they help her raise her young son from her previous marriage.  She is an Ivy League educated physician and works very long hours.  She spoke occasionally about discrimination her and her family faced when they first immigrated.  I am also an educated well-paid worker, but not to her level.  I don't think this was much of an issue, but is worth mentioning.  Free time was at a premium, and we never got to spend as much time together as we wanted.  This was made even more difficult as I could not spend time at her place as she lived with her parents.

When we first met, she said that she had some trust issues, stemming both from childhood and her previous marriage.  I have my own issues, not properly diagnosed but I am told I live in my head too much and I amplify small problems into big ones.  Between the two of us, and both of us being strong-minded, we had some conflicts - a serious one about once a year.  We didn't really fight when we were physically together, but being together was not the norm.  The worst of these fights resulted in me running away for a three week trip to Asia.  Stupid, but I was very hurt as the fight had her excluding me from Thanksgiving and two holiday parties that we were supposed to go to together.  Still, I shouldn't have ran.

When I got back from Asia, we had it out and she told me that no matter what, we would be together in the end.  She said that even if we broke up and got married to someone else, that she would track me down when she was free (i.e. her son was grown) and we would be together then.  She even said that she had the conversation with herself about having to be comfortable with me being with another woman during those years.  I was very moved by this, and the next day I went out to buy her a higher-end Tiffany engagement ring (she said in the past that wanted one).  Less than a month later I proposed at the museum we had our first "date out" together and she accepted.  

She semi-retired in the fall of 2019 (at age 44) and left medicine.  At the time, we were both pursuing additional advanced degrees which was taking a lot of time.  I had hoped that when she left her job that we would have more time for each other.  However, it ended up being less.  I felt like less of a priority to her - she had more time, but I saw her less.  What I didn't realize was how hard she was dealing with not practicing medicine anymore.  Being a doctor is an identity as much as a profession, and she had lost that.

By the time February 2020 came around, between my increasing feeling of not being a priority, stress of school, and normal work stress, I finally blew up after she made a comment about me "not being fun anymore."  In what is the stupidest and most thoughtless thing I have ever done, I I texted her to give me back the ring.  I was exhausted and took a nap.  A few hours later my phone starts going off with texts from my friends, who told me that G took it to Facebook.  I hopped on Facebook and sure enough I was being crucified.  It hurt to read, and I posted something on her wall about how I still loved her and it was a mistake and how sad it was that we were ending so publicly and sordidly.

A few days later when things cool off she apologized and I apologized and I thought we'd get past it and be stronger because of it.  We even went on a weekend trip to NYC that was planned before the blow-up.  However, she didn't wear her engagement ring on the trip.  Then COVID hit.

Given that she was a physician and lived with her elderly parents, we stayed apart from one another, especially in the early COVID days.  We stayed in contact over the phone, trying to avoid texting as it was part of the cause of the previous blowup.  I started suggesting that we take the opportunity to move the relationship forward and get a place together.  This went on into mid April, at which point she started to fade away from me.  I would only hear from her if I reached out first, or to ask if I could play an online game with her son.  By mid May, I was clear on the pattern and I confronted her about it.  She told me that (a) she wasn't happy, (b) that things had been bad for a long time, (c) that she didn't really think about me or us anymore, and (d) she felt anxiety any time that I texted or called her.  I was shocked by this coldness, and said that it sounded like she really wanted to end things.  I tried to steer her out of this and suggested getting a place together again.  She said she couldn't handle any ultimatums (it wasn't one) and it was over.  I told her that I loved her, she said that she loved me, and we hung up.  This was mid/late May.

I took her cold words to heart and did not contact her.  I sent her flowers as a gentle nudge, she didn't respond.  I sent her a small series of texts saying that sometimes I think I understand what happened, and sometimes I don't, but ultimately I just miss her.  No response.  Defeated, I gave her the space that she wanted.  At least the space away from me.

Her birthday comes up on my calendar, and I don't know how I justified this to myself, I called her.  She answered, and remembered instantly that I still loved her.  After I regained my composure, we chatted for about an hour.  She said she was just thinking about how to return the ring to me (she had it the whole time).  I told her that I had truly loved her, and she said that she had loved me.  She talked about how broken she was.  The conversation was easy and we even made each legitimately laugh, reusing and riffing on some of our old in-jokes.  She said that it was like we had been speaking the whole time.  She said that she didn't know when she would be able to get the ring back to me, and I said that is fine and to let me know when she knew.  Overall it was positive and we hung up.  Another day went by afterward and we did not contact each other

On her birthday itself, I texted her "Hey C.  Too late?" and she replied "Never" followed with a smiley face.  My heart melted.  Do you think there is any hope?

[lostandhurt]

Hope for what?

To get back together and have the same thing happen again?

Just because you both miss each other and even still love each other that does not mean time has fixed any of your past issues.

  What has each of you done to work on the things that tore you apart before? 

You need to accept that it didn't work before for real tangible reasons and until those are addressed the answer is no there is no hope for a long and healthy relationship.

Did you ever live together?  If so for how long?

Lost

[2MonthsOff]

2 minutes ago, lostandhurt said:

Hope for what?

To get back together and have the same thing happen again?

Just because you both miss each other and even still love each other that does not mean time has fixed any of your past issues.

  What has each of you done to work on the things that tore you apart before? 

You need to accept that it didn't work before for real tangible reasons and until those are addressed the answer is no there is no hope for a long and healthy relationship.

Did you ever live together?  If so for how long?

Lost

I should have thought that through.  I hope that we can get back together, this time acknowledging and working on our problems, both the individual ones and the ones in the relationship itself.

Does it sound like she is leaving the door open?

[Hollyj]

This has never been stable or good.  I don't know what you will return to, as it seems that you have always been on the periphery of her life.  The relationship was very unhealthy.

It is time to move on.  You need to find someone who will bring you in completely, and there won't be so much drama.  

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, 2MonthsOff said:

Does it sound like she is leaving the door open?

Unfortunately there are way too many conflicts and she has way too many obligations.

You know from visiting Asia that saying "no" is considered very rude.

After all this time and all this drama and all these incompatibilities, you both tried, and you both know it's not working

You seem to be trying to backpedal to a time (long ago) when things were working and actually good.

But that was just a brief snapshot of the relationship, which for the most part was quite conflicted.

You may feel you understand how her collectivist culture operates, but apparently, she knows you do not.

[MissCanuck]

Have you ever met her parents, child, or friends?

[2MonthsOff]

55 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

Have you ever met her parents, child, or friends?

Yes.  I treated her son like my own.  G would stay with me and bring her son.  We were a little family, just not full time.  

Her parents accepted me, somewhat begrudgingly, but given our ages and the fact that it would have been her second marriage they ultimately didn't care.  A key point is that they insisted that we wait until her younger brother got married, as he had not been married at all yet.  This was yet another outside/cultural headwind to our relationship.

I met and spent time with her friends frequently, at least as a ratio to the time we spent together.

[Rose Mosse]

She lost interest in you. I'm sorry to say this. Whatever you bring to the table is not enough. This doesn't mean that you're less of a person. I think you're more emotionally intelligent than she is even though you might put her on a pedestal because she's a physician this or ivy league that. It's definitely not working because the interest isn't there. There are good memories but you are much better off taking the time to heal and put this behind you. 

I just filed for divorce a few weeks ago and it doesn't mean I haven't exchanged a few words or reminisced on good times with my ex. I think people can take it however they want to take it but remember the reasons why it didn't work. She offers you nothing. She isn't willing to move in with you. She feels anxious when she talks with you and I think she's not being completely honest about what she wants out of a relationship and that's why it seems open-ended to you. Most people won't be as clear in a break up or tell the other person how they fell short or how the other person is not the kind of partner they are looking for. Often it's because they themselves don't know (haven't figured that out yet) or they don't have the courage to do so. And so people get strung along unnecessarily. 

Do yourself a favour and treat yourself with the ultimate kindness - move forwards. You don't need any explanations from her. I think she has a lot of growing to do and exploring now with her shift in her profession and free time. 

I didn't find the comment about marrying other people and then finding each other later romantic in the least either. You were taken by this and it stood out to me. I'm curious about that. These are illusions about stability and peace of mind that lack consideration to multiple parties, especially innocent parties down the line if you both were involved with other people. Take her off that pedestal and move on. You can do it.

 

[2MonthsOff]

To clarify the nature of our relationship a bit, we were very close.  Even though we had some elements of a long-distance relationship due to her circumstances, we were always in constant communication.  She had a fun, dorky side that fit perfectly with my fun, dorky side and conversation was often glorious repartee.

On the other hand, her father is a Christian pastor, and a lot of her time and energy and money got pulled into supporting that.  She had conflicting desires to her family obligations and the strength of honoring her father and degree of her faith, to those desires with me for which I am loosely Christian and not a churchgoer.

This is indicative of her internal conflicts of who she is, who she feels she has to be, and who she wants to be.

[2MonthsOff]

8 minutes ago, Rose Mosse said:

She lost interest in you. I'm sorry to say this. Whatever you bring to the table is not enough. This doesn't mean that you're less of a person. I think you're more emotionally intelligent than she is even though you might put her on a pedestal because she's a physician this or ivy league that. It's definitely not working because the interest isn't there. There are good memories but you are much better off taking the time to heal and put this behind you. 

I just filed for divorce a few weeks ago and it doesn't mean I haven't exchanged a few words or reminisced on good times with my ex. I think people can take it however they want to take it but remember the reasons why it didn't work. She offers you nothing. She isn't willing to move in with you. She feels anxious when she talks with you and I think she's not being completely honest about what she wants out of a relationship and that's why it seems open-ended to you. Most people won't be as clear in a break up or tell the other person how they fell short or how the other person is not the kind of partner they are looking for. Often it's because they themselves don't know (haven't figured that out yet) or they don't have the courage to do so. And so people get strung along unnecessarily. 

Do yourself a favour and treat yourself with the ultimate kindness - move forwards. You don't need any explanations from her. I think she has a lot of growing to do and exploring now with her shift in her profession and free time. 

I didn't find the comment about marrying other people and then finding each other later romantic in the least either. You were taken by this and it stood out to me. I'm curious about that. These are illusions about stability and peace of mind that lack consideration to multiple parties, especially innocent parties down the line if you both were involved with other people. Take her off that pedestal and move on. You can do it.

 

You made me tear up - thank you.

 

[SooSad33]

IMO, this all fell apart over time... your 'bond' became less and less.

Is always so great in the beginning, but over time, reality hit.  You two tried and tried.  Repeatedly being reminded it wasn't going to work out.

In the end, she had some bad reactions in dealing with you... Your partner should not be causing you anxiety 😞 .

She is damaged with this whole experience.  She is not okay.

I think this all fell apart long ago.. YOU are in denial stuck in this 'hope' of what can never be... sorry.

You've tried and tried.. and waited long enough now.  You BOTH need to accept it will not work.

Is just too much negative sitting on you now.... And so often, after the first BU, and then having it repeated, causes more & more strain.. not closeness.

You seriously need to get it into your head that it is not workable.. deal with her on occasion, if you choose.. BUT, in order to work on accepting & getting over all of this. ongoing mess, you need to back off now - totally.

This is the only way you can work on accepting & healing.. hanging on any way possible just has it all take that much longer.

Break free.. and focus on YOU now.

Maybe in time, you two can try & be 'friends' again, at least - who knows?

But enough now.  

If it has caused a lot of hurt in you, consder some prof help to work through this experience, so you can accept & let go.

[DancingFool]

On/off, explosive fights, toxic behaviors, major personality clashes, clashing needs, cultures, etc. that cannot be compensated for by a shared dorky sense of humor. I can only echo Rose as well, that what you are calling romantic...I don't see it. You've put her on this pedestal that is half illusion.

So, let's suppose the door is open. What would be different this time around besides just a continuation of the on/off toxic games being romanticized as mysterious and intriguing?

[Rose Mosse]

8 minutes ago, 2MonthsOff said:

To clarify the nature of our relationship a bit, we were very close.  Even though we had some elements of a long-distance relationship due to her circumstances, we were always in constant communication.  She had a fun, dorky side that fit perfectly with my fun, dorky side and conversation was often glorious repartee.

On the other hand, her father is a Christian pastor, and a lot of her time and energy and money got pulled into supporting that.  She had conflicting desires to her family obligations and the strength of honoring her father and degree of her faith, to those desires with me for which I am loosely Christian and not a churchgoer.

This is indicative of her internal conflicts of who she is, who she feels she has to be, and who she wants to be.

Let's be honest here - every repartee is glorious until.. it isn't and it becomes a disagreement or there's tension because you don't see eye to eye on the facts that matter.

Whenever things got emotional for me and it was so hard to shut down any idea of reconciliation because the relationship wasn't working for me or abusive or toxic, I had to stay grounded on why it just didn't work for us, for example. You should do the same. She doesn't want to continue with the relationship and she hasn't pursued you or reciprocated your friendly texts. I think you're still living in the past and the what ifs or what has happened before. 

The relationship with her family tells me that she probably hasn't worked on her boundaries. I'm half Chinese, by the way, and I have Korean cousins. My family is Catholic. I don't see what race or religion has anything to do with this except to lend some context. She still needs to create better boundaries on how she moves forward. I hope with time she is able to establish those boundaries with her father and mother despite still living with them and supporting them. For you I think you are so much better off without the complications of someone who seems to need more time and more growth on herself. This isn't the end of the world. You'll meet others who will love and care for you. Don't stay stuck here.

[tattoobunnie]

You were never happy.  Always holding out for a some day scenario to happen.  And when that someday did happen, things still never went the way you needed them to go.  You weren't right for each other.  You can love someone, but when how you spend your leisure time isn't a match, it's not a match.

I would move on. Cuz if you leave room for her in your heart, you will only tunnel vision at the thought of her return.  No need to settle.  You already had that in your first marriage. 

[2MonthsOff]

I really took the "Hey G. Too late?" and her response of "Never" to be a strong overture.  I have not seen her in over a year, and until this week, had not had any contact with her since May 2020.

Our physical relationship was top-notch, I think further fueled by the dichotomy of her being a pastor's daughter - she made references to that herself.

I truly believed from day one that if she was able to sort out things in her life with her perceived obligations to her family that we would have worked out great.  Furthermore, I think I gleaned from our conversation that she's willing to take "some day" to "soon" or "now".

Finally, I remember that in October 2017 (8 months into our relationship) we were in Las Vegas for a business trip of mine that she tagged along on.  While in Vegas, she suggested we get married there.  I wanted to as well, but told her that we should honor her father's wishes to have her brother married off first.  I wish I just done it, I think she was looking for an escape and I could have been the "bad guy" to get her off the hook with her father.

 

[Rose Mosse]

49 minutes ago, 2MonthsOff said:

I really took the "Hey G. Too late?" and her response of "Never" to be a strong overture.  I have not seen her in over a year, and until this week, had not had any contact with her since May 2020.

Our physical relationship was top-notch, I think further fueled by the dichotomy of her being a pastor's daughter - she made references to that herself.

I truly believed from day one that if she was able to sort out things in her life with her perceived obligations to her family that we would have worked out great.  Furthermore, I think I gleaned from our conversation that she's willing to take "some day" to "soon" or "now".

Finally, I remember that in October 2017 (8 months into our relationship) we were in Las Vegas for a business trip of mine that she tagged along on.  While in Vegas, she suggested we get married there.  I wanted to as well, but told her that we should honor her father's wishes to have her brother married off first.  I wish I just done it, I think she was looking for an escape and I could have been the "bad guy" to get her off the hook with her father.

 

There are so many things wrong with this picture. She tried using you as an escape and is living in a dreamland/sexual fantasy thinking of you as the bad buy(or the escape) from her real world as a physican and pastor's daughter.

You are not actually a part of her real world, nor are you in any way an option for marriage or a future together. I think this turns you on and keeps you addicted to the idea of her also because she's someone you feel safe idealizing and turning to. You're doing a lot of damage thinking back to how you could have been a part of her life in a way that both of you may have resented later on down the line. This reasoning is full of conflict and contradictions (to the way both of you live, your current obligations and who you are as people). 

I'm sorry you got caught up with someone like this who wasn't willing to take you seriously at all. I think she was flirting with you in a casual way and but you've latched onto it as hope for reconciliation. Aren't you interested in being appreciated for who/what you are instead of trying to pretzel yourself and twist and turn to conform to someone else's life? This is more a rhetorical question so please don't take it the wrong way. I hope you gather yourself up and leave this behind. 

[gamon]

The door might be open a crack at best, nothing more.

You really need to get a move on with your life and stop waiting around hoping to be thrown a bone.

[2MonthsOff]

1 hour ago, Rose Mosse said:

There are so many things wrong with this picture. She tried using you as an escape and is living in a dreamland/sexual fantasy thinking of you as the bad buy(or the escape) from her real world as a physican and pastor's daughter.

You are not actually a part of her real world, nor are you in any way an option for marriage or a future together. I think this turns you on and keeps you addicted to the idea of her also because she's someone you feel safe idealizing and turning to. You're doing a lot of damage thinking back to how you could have been a part of her life in a way that both of you may have resented later on down the line. This reasoning is full of conflict and contradictions (to the way both of you live, your current obligations and who you are as people). 

I'm sorry you got caught up with someone like this who wasn't willing to take you seriously at all. I think she was flirting with you in a casual way and but you've latched onto it as hope for reconciliation. Aren't you interested in being appreciated for who/what you are instead of trying to pretzel yourself and twist and turn to conform to someone else's life? This is more a rhetorical question so please don't take it the wrong way. I hope you gather yourself up and leave this behind. 

I get the escape part - in fact, I thought this was more or less explicit and my role in her life was to escape for good.

I don't see how I wasn't a serious option for marriage or a future together.  She proposed to me before I proposed to her (although we had been talking about long-term and marriage well ahead of that).  

Another thing that came to mind - she's a very light sleeper, and without fail several times a night she would  half-awaken throughout the middle of the night telling me that she loved me.

I just can't escape the notion that something really deep and really beautiful is there in her and our relationship, and I had made mistakes as I was going through the process of uncovering it all.  Maybe I'm lying to myself, maybe I'm just an optimist, or maybe I'm just a sucker.

 

[Hollyj]

48 minutes ago, 2MonthsOff said:

I get the escape part - in fact, I thought this was more or less explicit and my role in her life was to escape for good.

I don't see how I wasn't a serious option for marriage or a future together.  She proposed to me before I proposed to her (although we had been talking about long-term and marriage well ahead of that).  

Another thing that came to mind - she's a very light sleeper, and without fail several times a night she would  half-awaken throughout the middle of the night telling me that she loved me.

I just can't escape the notion that something really deep and really beautiful is there in her and our relationship, and I had made mistakes as I was going through the process of uncovering it all.  Maybe I'm lying to myself, maybe I'm just an optimist, or maybe I'm just a sucker.

 

I think it is denial.  You do not have a good track record with this woman, let go!

[2MonthsOff]

5 minutes ago, Hollyj said:

I think it is denial.  You do not have a good track record with this woman, let go!

Thank you. 😃

[MissCanuck]

1 hour ago, 2MonthsOff said:

I just can't escape the notion that something really deep and really beautiful is there in her and our relationship, and I had made mistakes as I was going through the process of uncovering it all.  Maybe I'm lying to myself, maybe I'm just an optimist, or maybe I'm just a sucker.

I think this is merely your belief that there was something more there to work with.

It isn't her belief anymore, though. And it doesn't sound like she was ever as invested at the same level you were, sadly. 

It's time to let go of the hope of what you wanted it to become, and instead accept the reality that it didn't become that. It just wasn't in the cards for you two, unfortunately. 

[No1]

You kind of glanced over the part that you blew up. You dont think by snapping at her and doing the power trip in demanding the ring back had a negative affect on her? At the first sign of losing her, you went crazy. Instead of asking how can we bring the fun back into the relationship, you went full "I want the ring back"

Now, I know you want her back, she knows you want her back but there is nothing you can do. Honestly I cant tell you if she will come back but Im guessing that something happened that will not change her perception of you. And you cant ask either. Your actions were raw and it could of contributed to the ending. 

On the flip side, she still has the ring. I cant fully understand how a woman who is so smart cant come up with a way to get a ring from one location to another location. She could use any one of many means of services. She could have a friend take it to you or whatever but Im confused how a person who is that smart cant figure out something as simple as using a mail or delivery service. But I do know that you are using that as your flame of hope. I cant blame you for thinking that way. 

But I tell people to focus on the now, not past promises. She is not with you and you have to move forward with your life. She may or may not come back but place your life in a position where you can decide. 

[Rose Mosse]

On 3/19/2021 at 12:24 PM, 2MonthsOff said:

I get the escape part - in fact, I thought this was more or less explicit and my role in her life was to escape for good.

I don't see how I wasn't a serious option for marriage or a future together.  She proposed to me before I proposed to her (although we had been talking about long-term and marriage well ahead of that).  

Another thing that came to mind - she's a very light sleeper, and without fail several times a night she would  half-awaken throughout the middle of the night telling me that she loved me.

I just can't escape the notion that something really deep and really beautiful is there in her and our relationship, and I had made mistakes as I was going through the process of uncovering it all.  Maybe I'm lying to myself, maybe I'm just an optimist, or maybe I'm just a sucker.

 

I think she's stringing you along for an ego boost. Are both of you still communicating?