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4 minutes ago, Marie29 said:

 I'm too emotional, shy and not ready. I see that now so thanks for another opinion. 

Agree. You need to get things in perspective. A date is a yes/no situation. 

Dating safety makes sense. Going on a rant about murders and all your fears to some guy you went on 2 dates with does not.

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This.  All of it.  I  really feel like I need to comment on this.  I don't date anymore, because I'm married now, but I was pretty cautious back when I did.  I didn't live in fear of serial killers or

Excellent. Update so we know you weren't hacked to pieces and put through a woodchipper.😉

It's a sad sad day when one gets to the point of believing every guy looking for a date is a rapist and murderer.  How on earth does anyone date anymore?  Obviously all women should be cautious but wo

You are right, it's just difficult to learn to trust your intuition, because sometimes people are really good actors,haha. But yeah true, I need to work on myself. I feel I leveled up now 🙂 I learned something new about me. Better late than never,lol. So thank you all.

I just wish I could tell him that. But it's too late..

Edited by Marie29
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When I was 28 I was about to move out on my own for the first time after grad school.  I was on top of the world -I am woman hear me roar.  I met a guy through a personal ad in the early 1990s.  So handsome, successful, Ivy league educated, only a few years older than me.  We met for a picnic the first time.  I ignored red flags. He was all over me in public.  But you know I was going to be this single free wheeling independent gal. 

So the second time we met he invited me back to his place.  I did tell him "no sex".  And you know -clean cut/educated/successful.  Lovely neighborhood and apartment.  We kissed some in the living room and he said he wanted to give me a massage in the bedroom.  I figured I'd told him no sex. I was 100% sober -I believe he was too.  About ten minutes in I'm now on my back in his bedroom -I believe I had most of my clothing on, him too but he's pinning my wrists down.  I move to get free.  No. I tell him no as he's now getting way too intense.  No move on his end- he keeps going.  Third time- louder. 

He lets me go -he even drove me home (I know, so ridiculous on my part to let him). So literally nothing happened - no sex - but yes an assault.  Over the next couple of years I heard about him again at least 4 times.  From girlfriends who met him through on line sites -he either harassed them verbally, pressured them for sex, etc. He even contacted me on line a few times obviously not recognizing me.  One time he wrote "why are you still single?" and I wrote back "why are you lying about your age?"  9 years later I saw him in person at a bar.  I introduced myself to see his reaction.  One would think that he would remember pinning down a woman on his bed (yes he knew my unusual last name) who shouted NO!"  Nope.  Likely because he'd done it many times.  (Yes he was still single).  I had him kicked off Eharmony too for lying about his age.

There are some who would say I asked for it -I even think my own mom suggested that.  Nope.  I told him my boundaries.  He heard me.  I told him no when I was pinned down -no consent to go beyond kissing, some massaging.  I had the right to stop.  No I wasn't leading him on or being a tease.  (even if I was -I get to say no, but I was not).  But it looks awful right?  What if I'd pressed charges -who would believe me? (I didn't -let it go).

So I still think what you said to this guy was overkill.  And no I wouldn't go to a man's place alone who you met through an online site until you've been out a number of times (or get in his car right away) - unless you know people in common and unless you are going there for a gathering with at least one other person you know - like "bring a friend to my party".  I went to a superbowl party on a third date -no I didn't know anyone else there but it was girls and guys and completely safe.  

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Thank you for your story, Batya! That's really tough, I'm glad you could leave his house. It's crazy that he drove you home. You will always remember this moment and I'm sure you always have your guard up. This is a horrible example and sad story for me. That's why I'll always wait with that until I feel it's safe and the right time and such feelings caused my "overkill speech". I know better now, I'll build up my confidence and I'll sharpen my instincts.

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Oh! He contacted me again, I didn't expect this, lol. And to my surprise - extremely positive. Yes, it was overkill but he wrote a humourous, funny, polite and understanding text to me. And something like "Wait and I'll show you that I'm not some psycho-murderer :)" I'm so relieved but of course I will not forget what I learned from you here! Thank you all😃 Level up.

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There are two points going on here.

Do not go to someone's home if you aren't ready and or don't feel safe.

It's not really debatable.

The second is to not lecture a date on how evil the world is and infer that accepting (what might have otherwise been a perfectly innocent evening) might put her in peril.

You don't know.  The point I was making was that she was well within her rights to decline the date.

We will never know why he didn't call.  He could have wanted sex, he could have been put off by the world is mean to me lecture.  

My advice was to just find a better way to decline the invitation that came from a place of confidence and not fear.  That would save her from wondering if it were her choice of words that scared him off.  Personally, if someone said those things to me, I might think twice about continuing to see them. 

If he didn't call back because he wanted sex, then good riddance. I wouldn't waste a flat second giving him any further thought.

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5 minutes ago, Marie29 said:

Oh! He contacted me again, I didn't expect this, lol. And to my surprise - extremely positive. Yes, it was overkill but he wrote a humourous, funny, polite and understanding text to me. And something like "Wait and I'll show you that I'm not some psycho-murderer :)" I'm so relieved but of course I will not forget what I learned from you here! Thank you all😃 Level up.

oh shoot. . lol wish i read this first 🙂

Good for you.   Glad you two were able to make light of the situation.  Carry on!

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Hey Marie29,

I think you made the right call and personally saw nothing wrong with what you said to him. If that’s how you feel and express yourself, so be it. That’s you. 

I’m lockdown dating too and after two walking dates, my guy asked me over to his instead as there’s not much else to do. I panicked when he asked. I don’t do ONS and was surprised as he hadn’t indicated anything forward/pushy up until that point. I didn’t respond then and there, but when I got home explained that I didn’t feel comfortable/too soon. But his response was amazing: “understand, no rush, so what makes you comfortable”. If there was a hint of pressure it would’ve confirmed my fears. But actually his response made me like him even more  

In the end, a few days later I agreed but made it clear what I was comfortable with, managed to do some online detective work to find out as much as poss about him, and told a friend where I was going and gave her my live location on WhatsApp. To be honest, all the usual things I’d do on a first date. In the end it was absolutely fine and I went with my gut.

With this guy, it’s great that he’s finally responded but my advice is don’t ever feel bad about expressing what you like/dislike/boundaries. If anything, I see it as a useful and more efficient way to attract those you want and filter those you don’t want. Fingers crossed your guy continues to be respectful. Best of luck. hopefully it’s a sign that he was giving you space and had genuine intentions, rather than having a sulk, only returning for a second go.  More updates if poss please!!

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6 hours ago, Marie29 said:

Oh! He contacted me again, I didn't expect this, lol. And to my surprise - extremely positive. Yes, it was overkill but he wrote a humourous, funny, polite and understanding text to me. And something like "Wait and I'll show you that I'm not some psycho-murderer :)" I'm so relieved but of course I will not forget what I learned from you here! Thank you all😃 Level up.

Glad to hear it. I had a funny feeling he would be in touch, lol.  I'm hoping this is a really genuine and sincere guy  for you.  Enjoy getting to know one another and keep us updated 🙂

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10 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

That's right. Axe murders like this usually chain thier victims down before hacking them to death. 

In fact they probably would prefer all the neighbors to notice. After all where would Hitchcock be without such great thinking?

Okay, wise guy, You would sing a different tune had your mother, sister, wife, girlfriend, fiance, close friend or someone you knew within your midst were victims of sexual harassment, sexual assault, rape, date rape, sexual abuse against children, etc. because it all happens on the sly including your neighbors, fellow tenants, apartment building, suburbia, everywhere.  There is no discrimination when it comes to committing crimes.  It's hush-hush and not widely publicized for a reason.  Criminals are sneaky. 

Never underestimate the power of no witnesses because this is how crimes are committed. Criminals are smart.  They don't want snitches, this isn't their first rodeo, they don't want evidence and proof.  Despite thin walls, neighbors won't notice if your mouth is covered while you cannot breathe. 

A lot of crimes happen when you don't know how to play it safe. 

As reiterated, granted, date rape doesn't happen all the time.  However, all it takes is letting your guard down that one time and it's one time too many.  Common sense should dictate how to be safe by not placing yourself in vulnerable situations in the first place.  Being 1:1 with a man in his apartment or your apartment is awfully risky especially when you don't know him that well yet.  He's like a stranger.  What part of that don't you understand?  The victim cannot summon for help.  It is a helpless feeling. 

(Even male prisoners and other males are raped, too.  You can't prove it so victims suffer in silence for life.) 

My own MIL (mother-in-law) was almost raped by her boss of all places,  AT WORK.  Yes, AT HER WORKPLACE!  He was the ultimate pillar of his community, a very "respectable," wise man yet when my MIL went back home to tell her mother and grandmother about the assault that day, they didn't believe her and told her to never mention this again.  If accused, it would've brought shame to herself and her family.  She would've been branded as a "loose woman."  Her boss would've said the following:  She fabricated her story, she asked for it, she's promiscuous, she's a ***, she's a ***, it was consensual and my MIL would've been the laughing stock of her community.  Word spreads fast.  She couldn't prove it.  She was only 21 years old but these types of crimes can happen at any age.  She of all people, fully comprehends how vulnerable some women are if they're alone with a man whom they don't know that well yet.  

Read Batya33's post in this thread in order for you to comprehend what happens behind closed doors during crimes of opportunity.  Hopefully, that will give you a better visual.  Unfortunately, these types of assaults even including children are under reported because it can't stand a chance in court.  And, the majority of these types of crimes are committed by people whom you know, whom you thought you could actually trust ~  not  strangers.  Go to any local police department and find out for yourself.  They'll tell you the same.

Women take a chance by placing themselves in vulnerable situations at their own risk.  It's a gamble.  Some win and unfortunately, others lose big time.  All it takes is once and unfortunately, those mental scars never disappear for life.  Bad memories can never be erased.  Live and learn the hard way. ☹️ Unfortunately, it happens more often than you think.  Most people don't talk about it but it all happens right under your nose.

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8 hours ago, Batya33 said:

When I was 28 I was about to move out on my own for the first time after grad school.  I was on top of the world -I am woman hear me roar.  I met a guy through a personal ad in the early 1990s.  So handsome, successful, Ivy league educated, only a few years older than me.  We met for a picnic the first time.  I ignored red flags. He was all over me in public.  But you know I was going to be this single free wheeling independent gal. 

So the second time we met he invited me back to his place.  I did tell him "no sex".  And you know -clean cut/educated/successful.  Lovely neighborhood and apartment.  We kissed some in the living room and he said he wanted to give me a massage in the bedroom.  I figured I'd told him no sex. I was 100% sober -I believe he was too.  About ten minutes in I'm now on my back in his bedroom -I believe I had most of my clothing on, him too but he's pinning my wrists down.  I move to get free.  No. I tell him no as he's now getting way too intense.  No move on his end- he keeps going.  Third time- louder. 

He lets me go -he even drove me home (I know, so ridiculous on my part to let him). So literally nothing happened - no sex - but yes an assault.  Over the next couple of years I heard about him again at least 4 times.  From girlfriends who met him through on line sites -he either harassed them verbally, pressured them for sex, etc. He even contacted me on line a few times obviously not recognizing me.  One time he wrote "why are you still single?" and I wrote back "why are you lying about your age?"  9 years later I saw him in person at a bar.  I introduced myself to see his reaction.  One would think that he would remember pinning down a woman on his bed (yes he knew my unusual last name) who shouted NO!"  Nope.  Likely because he'd done it many times.  (Yes he was still single).  I had him kicked off Eharmony too for lying about his age.

There are some who would say I asked for it -I even think my own mom suggested that.  Nope.  I told him my boundaries.  He heard me.  I told him no when I was pinned down -no consent to go beyond kissing, some massaging.  I had the right to stop.  No I wasn't leading him on or being a tease.  (even if I was -I get to say no, but I was not).  But it looks awful right?  What if I'd pressed charges -who would believe me? (I didn't -let it go).

So I still think what you said to this guy was overkill.  And no I wouldn't go to a man's place alone who you met through an online site until you've been out a number of times (or get in his car right away) - unless you know people in common and unless you are going there for a gathering with at least one other person you know - like "bring a friend to my party".  I went to a superbowl party on a third date -no I didn't know anyone else there but it was girls and guys and completely safe.  

Read this Wiseman2.

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It's a sad sad day when one gets to the point of believing every guy looking for a date is a rapist and murderer.  How on earth does anyone date anymore?  Obviously all women should be cautious but wow, immediately launching into  ... "all he wanted was sex!!!! he could have raped you!!!!" spiel is a but much, (imo). I know the world is a crazy place these days, but geez, lets have a little faith - there ARE good men out there.

 

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1 minute ago, Capricorn3 said:

It's a sad sad day when one gets to the point of believing every guy looking for a date is a rapist and murderer.  How on earth does anyone date anymore?  Obviously all women should be cautious but wow, immediately launching into  ... "all he wanted was sex!!!! he could have raped you!!!!" spiel is a but much, (imo). I know the world is a crazy place these days, but geez, lets have a little faith - there ARE good men out there.

 

I agree, there are a lot of good men out there.  Unfortunately, it's the bad men you don't know about who look normal, act good, behave publicly when witnesses abound and then there's always that one or more who will take advantage in a bad way should the opportunity arise. 

There is a way to date safely by using common sense.  Being so trusting and naive can sorely backfire. 

Yes, have faith but learn how to play it safe.  Protect yourself.  Regrets are hard to live with.  Better safe than sorry.

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I think it's very possible he was interested in sex, hence inviting you to his place when there really is no need for it this early on, but I also think there's a very real possibility that you over-explained, provided too many justifications for not being alone with him, and he may very well have been overwhelmed by it (especially as you two don't know each other well yet) and/or he may have felt like you were accusing him of something.  (It's also perfectly OK for him to want sex on the third date -- it doesn't make him a terrible person --  but he has to understand that you are in no way obligated to do it, too. And, if he isn't OK with you not being ready for that, he's probably not the guy for you.  Especially during a pandemic -- yikes!) 

I think it's perfectly understandable that you wouldn't want to go to his place so early on -- I wouldn't have either -- and it's perfectly OK to say so, but keeping it brief, concise, and to-the-point is always best:  "I'd like to see you, but I'd rather meet at [insert name of place here]" or "I'd like to see you, but I'd like to get to know you better before meeting at your home.  Can we meet at [insert name of place here] instead?"  If you put it that way and he refuses, argues, or tries to manipulate/guilt trip you into changing your mind, he's not the guy for you. 

You may not hear from him again, and I know that thought is disappointing, but...maybe you just aren't on the same "page," and that's OK.  Most people we meet are not a good match for us.  Dating is about finding someone who is, and it may take awhile.  

Hang in there!

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23 hours ago, Marie29 said:

Thank you all for your answers. It helps me but it makes me sad too. I understand..I thought he must be a jerk too. But reading your answers show me that it was my fault too and I am so shocked. I thought I was an adult woman with boundaries but..I'm just a girl who showed she is afraid.

I just wanted to add that he asked me if I had a bad experience, that's why I told him all that. It was not one "speech" shooting at him, he asked me, so I told him. I thought "good guys" who really have a true interest in me will not be scared away. I'm so stupid for showing my vunerable side. 

You're not stupid at all -- you have some good boundaries, but you just need to learn to exercise them a bit more confidently AND to be able to accept that a guy may want something different than what you want and be able to just let it go if that's the case.  There's no need for a whole bunch of explanation --  just keep it short and sweet: Let the guy know that you're interested and want to get to know him better, but that you aren't going to meet at his home (or yours) right away, and if that's OK with him, then great, you can plan a date, and if it's not OK, then no hard feelings, and you move on. 

I once dated a guy who, on the 5th or 6th date, convinced me to let him come to my house for dinner.  I was hesitant to have him over because I wasn't ready to sleep with him, and I knew I wasn't going to that night, but I didn't come out and say any of this (I was much younger then, and I wasn't nearly as assertive as I am now.)  Sure enough, he expected something, and when it didn't happen (we fell asleep on the couch, fully clothed, after watching a movie) he broke things off with me in an e-mail a couple days later indicating that he wasn't "ready for a relationship.")  I was upset, for quite awhile, but...it was a good thing because it taught me to be more assertive.  If I had been more assertive in telling him I wasn't ready for a sleepover, he might have still have broken things off with me, but at least I would have known that I was being upfront and that there was no mis-communication.   He was absolutely NOT the right guy for me anyway (though he did pop up nearly a decade later, wanting to date me again -- that's a story for another post!) and I learned a lot of valuable stuff from my experience with him.

Take this as a learning experience, if you can.  It's disappointing, but it's an opportunity to think about what to do differently next time.

 

 

Edited by browneyedgirl36
Grammar mistakes!
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There is no reason why you could not have met elsewhere.  You made the right decision. 

In the future, don't go into so much detail.   Follow the other posters advice.

Edited by Hollyj
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Just date a bit more and keep your cool. A large percentage of people on dating apps react this way when sex isn't on the table right away. You haven't done anything wrong. The worst thing you can do is cave in on yourself and start second guessing what you did to deserve someone going hot/cold on you. 

Keep doing you and don't worry about what people like this.

The generous read is that he got scared and became skittish enough to move on to the next person who's a little easier. He's insecure and not in a good place. His issues, not yours.

The less generous read is that he thinks you're not the one for him. Lack of chemistry. Not everyone shows it openly.

Either way? You win. You stuck to your guns and he can take it or leave it. The right person will usually also have a lot more in common with you. It won't fall flat like this. 

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13 minutes ago, Rose Mosse said:

The less generous read is that he thinks you're not the one for him.

Perhaps take a bit more time and read through the entire thread before posting.

Just a suggestion, take it or leave it.

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13 hours ago, Marie29 said:

You are right, it's just difficult to learn to trust your intuition, because sometimes people are really good actors,haha. But yeah true, I need to work on myself. I feel I leveled up now 🙂 I learned something new about me. Better late than never,lol. So thank you all.

I just wish I could tell him that. But it's too late..

You are young and hadn't experienced life and people from all walks of life yet.  Being young is great, however, being naive doesn't pay. 

In the dating world, it's best to remain conservative with your process.  Remember, trust is earned and not given freely.  It takes a long time to carefully observe the quality of a man's character.  Don't rush, don't hurry and make sure you know how to protect yourself by navigating yourself wisely.  Safety first. 

Why risk danger when it's so preventable?  Why risk later regrets, bitterness and resentment if you can alter your course in the first place?  Never place yourself in harm's way if you can avoid it.   Be intelligent because intelligence and prudence will give you permanent peace of mind which is priceless.  This is what "better safe than sorry" means. 

Never be at the wrong place, at the wrong time with the wrong man otherwise you'll beat yourself up regarding your naivete.  Never trust a man whom you don't know well yet because he's still a stranger. 

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I remember early on when dating, we always met at restaurants, out for coffee, public place of activity, took walks at a park which wasn't deserted, library, basketball game, school concert, musical theater, etc.   I never placed myself in isolated areas with a man whom I barely knew or didn't get to know well yet.  It's common sense.  Or, we met in groups socially.  It was NEVER 1:1 in private at my or his house.  NEVER.  I've always felt safe because of it. 

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13 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

.  Unfortunately, it's the bad men you don't know about who look normal, act good, behave publicly when witnesses 

Agree. Women would be lot safer cloistered away in convents than even attempt dating with all the Ted Bundys out there.

Nonsense. Is it possible you're walking back from a store and get assaulted, sure. Is it possible someone spikes a drink in a club, sure.

Is it possible that on a third date he may hope to have sex, sure.

So what is the solution during a pandemic in 2021?

Cheryl it's a pandemic, it not a tv show about serial killers. You believe in the pandemic, no?

Edited by Wiseman2
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13 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

So what is the solution during a pandemic in 2021? 

I think that’s the issue here. Ordinarily, it’s very unlikely that you would go to someone’s house on a third date unless it naturally progressed to that very quickly. 

But in a pandemic? In the middle of winter? There are very few options. But it can be risky for women, so we have to take precautions to feel as safe as possible. Eg go during the day, be clear about how you feel, let someone know where you are, send a friend a screenshot of his profile. 

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7 minutes ago, LunarUK said:

But in a pandemic? In the middle of winter? There are very few options. 

Exactly. What is so difficult? You have a start time an end time, your own transportation. No drinking. Done.

What's wrong with take out and a movie during the pandemic? You arrive, you eat, you watch a movie, you leave.

People need to accept what is going on in the world and that "Netflix and chill", is the new normal but doesn't mean hookups the way it used to.

It's still much safer to go to his place because you are in control and leave at any time. In your place, someone has access to too much.

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Actually I disagree that if during quarantine a guy asked you to come to his house, that his only motive is sex. I mean, it might be some guys' motive, but not all.

It actually literally just happened to me now as well. I met a guy at a singles event recently and we talked for a while there. Then we went out for dinner and drinks at a nice restaurant and spent about four hours together. We were texting in between and he booked another restaurant for us to have dinner this weekend. We have the new strain of the UK COVID spreading in my state, so we've just gone into a strict five day lockdown. The guy suggested I come over to his place, order some takeaway watch horror movies (I love them) and meet his puppy who I wanted to meet (I love dogs). However the lockdown actually means you can't have anyone over, so I told him I can't come. I think he did actually invite me over because everything would be closed.

I also agree with what some other posters have said. I think it's OK to say you don't want to come over, but I think it's not really good to act suspicious and say bad guys have hurt you in the past and so on. He might actually not be a bad guy and it just sounds like you really don't trust men and don't trust him.

I mean unless he's been saying sexual or suggestive things then maybe his motive wasn't even to have sex. Also he didn't invite you over on the first or second date but only the third time. Some people actually feel comfortable sleeping with someone on the third date, especially if the previous dates were long. Maybe he was open to sleeping together but that wasn't necessarily the only thing he wanted from you. Above all if there's  quarantine it's different if someone invites you over than in pre COVID times.

Also to be honest because of my asthma I find it hard to breathe in a face mask, especially in the hot and humid summer weather we're having in my state right now (Australia). I have to wear a mask every day at work and I get a rash and some mouth sores from wearing it a lot. We have to wear a mask everywhere at the moment so I might prefer to do something at home without a mask to going out. But if I don't want to have sex I would probably just say that I'm not ready.

Also call me naive but I think most men are not rapists. I'm not saying you should go to any random's house (I don't actually do that). But if you know a guy and been on a couple of dates I think you have some idea of him as a person. I also think most men wouldn't rape a woman even if she came to their place. They might hope for sex if they're looking for sex. But if the woman doesn't want to and wanted to leave I think most guys would leave her alone. There's a difference between wanting sex and being an actual rapist that would force himself on a woman.

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58 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

I mean, it might be some guys' motive, but not all.

I also think most men wouldn't rape a woman even if she came to their place. 

Ha, good to know! I thought we were all sexually perverted rapists lurking in the corner for the next gullible damsel. Hmmm, who would have thought there are normal people on this planet! What a surprise!

 

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