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LOL OP. There is no need to find out or know everything. Trust me.

 

There is a great arsenal of phrases:

 

"Oh dear"! " How awful for you", "how very unpleasant", "would you like me to get you a soothing cream for the rash". You get the picture. The list of innocuous and situation-suitable remarks is endless.

 

Act, don't react. No truer advice.

 

No one can make you feel anything. You are responsible for your feelings.

 

A great old psychological trick is to imagine there is a glass partition between you and her. Through which you cannot hear. Give it a try.

 

Only to add. Humour can be great at deflating those moments. (Notice I said humour, not sarcasm).

 

Laughter IS often the best medicine.

 

I see where you're going. I'll just have to get used to being super conscious of every single interaction between us, I guess. Thank you!

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I get it. It's just that at least for me, not being able to talk is not being happy. As a side comment, I'm not in "free rent". I do give them money; not that it matters, but you've said it twice so I tought I should make it clear lol.

 

I truly get your point, but I'm not sure I'm making myself clear: I'm coming for advice because what I have done is just not enough; what have I done? not saying things, not criticizing, not disagreeing, blah blah blah. And I guess it's because avoiding is not solving. Altering behavior is, IMO, avoiding; if you're sick and ignore your pain, that doesn't make you healthy. But I agree: one has to pick their own battles.

 

With all due respect xanzza, I meant even discounted rent is still the price to pay regarding sacrificing your freedom from certain undesirable people in your life no matter who it is.

 

Whenever I can't deal with unreasonable people and if they cause me to react harshly, I quietly, simply and calmly walk away. You can't change people nor expect them to be reasonable according to your will. That's not how many people are. They'll do what they want, say what they want when they want with nary a care about how you feel. It's the way of the world.

 

Therefore, it's a matter of one's self control. I don't engage. Learn to walk away. I do this every time. This is a boundary act. You won't allow others to abuse you and at the same time, you refuse to stoop down to their level by arguing ad nauseum.

 

There are times when there is no solving because of whom you're dealing with. Expecting a person to be reasonable is unrealistic. I've already tried that and it's banging your head against a wall. :eek: It will get you nowhere. Trying to reason with the unreasonable is like administering medicine to the dead. It's useless and doesn't work.

 

Avoiding fights is better than fighting and losing every single time IMHO. Avoiding fights is more peaceful than escalating fights endlessly IMHO. I have difficult and very complicated people in my life, too. No deal. I have better things to do than fight until I'm blue in the face.

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With all due respect xanzza, I meant even discounted rent is still the price to pay regarding sacrificing your freedom from certain undesirable people in your life no matter who it is.

 

Whenever I can't deal with unreasonable people and if they cause me to react harshly, I quietly, simply and calmly walk away. You can't change people nor expect them to be reasonable according to your will. That's not how many people are. They'll do what they want, say what they want when they want with nary a care about how you feel. It's the way of the world.

 

Therefore, it's a matter of one's self control. I don't engage. Learn to walk away. I do this every time. This is a boundary act. You won't allow others to abuse you and at the same time, you refuse to stoop down to their level by arguing ad nauseum.

 

There are times when there is no solving because of whom you're dealing with. Expecting a person to be reasonable is unrealistic. I've already tried that and it's banging your head against a wall. :eek: It will get you nowhere. Trying to reason with the unreasonable is like administering medicine to the dead. It's useless and doesn't work.

 

Avoiding fights is better than fighting and losing every single time IMHO. Avoiding fights is more peaceful than escalating fights endlessly IMHO. I have difficult and very complicated people in my life, too. No deal. I have better things to do than fight until I'm blue in the face.

 

I agree, that is how the world is, simply. I guess it just saddens me. One can always avoid fights, but that doesn't stop the yearning of a better way, you know. One can always walk away, but the desire of a different reality is still there. I can always walk away from my family and try and do it differently with my future kids (and probably fail at it because that's just how life goes, there is no perfect parenting) but I'm still gonna yearn for a meaningful, real relationship with my mom that is not based in ignoring her comments and trying to not annoy her. But if there's no choice, what can one do but try to at least live peacefully right.

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I agree, that is how the world is, simply. I guess it just saddens me. One can always avoid fights, but that doesn't stop the yearning of a better way, you know. One can always walk away, but the desire of a different reality is still there. I can always walk away from my family and try and do it differently with my future kids (and probably fail at it because that's just how life goes, there is no perfect parenting) but I'm still gonna yearn for a meaningful, real relationship with my mom that is not based in ignoring her comments and trying to not annoy her. But if there's no choice, what can one do but try to at least live peacefully right.

 

Yes, it saddens you as it saddens me, too. You have to accept people and situations as they are but it doesn't mean you have to like it. Like you, I too yearn for a better way. I've since exhausted all avenues. Some people lack emotional intelligence (EQ). Google "emotional intelligence" so you will learn what many people lack and how it's impossible to interact with them. I hope you get what you yearn for. Just remain prepared for disappointment and lower your expectations so you won't be shocked nor surprised given what you already know about your mother's personality and character.

 

Yes, right, keep the peace because it's better than arguing and fighting endlessly any day.

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Whenever I upset my mom, it doesn't matter who is 'right,' I just say, "I'm sorry, Mom, that came out wrong."

 

That stumps her for a moment, because it's hard to argue with an apology, and if I sense further comment coming, I just kiss her cheek or her hand or her forehead as I get up to leave the room, and I say, "I love you, Mama...." AS I EXIT THE ROOM.

 

It doesn't matter where I go, or even if it's just into the kitchen to get something. If that's the case, I change the subject by saying, "I'm pouring some ice water, can I get you some?"

 

A quick and easy apology followed by a change of subject usually works, and an exit from the room works if all else fails. No huffing, no puffing, no trying to 'correct' her or plead a case. Period.

 

Over time this has taught Mom that starting an argument prompts me to walk away, while avoiding argument prompts me to stay and talk about other things.

 

So if she wants my company, she needs to behave. If she wants me to leave, just start a problem, and I'm gone.

 

Be consistently kind, even when you opt to walk away, and don't take the bait.

 

Head high, and treat arguments like one hand clapping.

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Just to ask:

 

" if things go right, I'm moving to germany in the following months."

 

What are your plans.

 

Well, as of right now, us mexicans are not allowed in the EU because of the corona crisis. We're peaking, yet our government is relaxing the lockdown, so I don't think it's gonna improve soon, and the embassy is closed so I cannot yet do my paperwork... so yeah. There are too many factors which I can't control, so I can only hope for the best.

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Right.

 

So it could be 2021 before you can make it to Germany, where I am assuming you will work with your BF.

 

Meantime, we are only in July 2020, so would you not consider moving out for the next 12 months and share an apartment with a room-mate or acquaintance?

 

Just what you said below. All the more reason to get yourself out of there before things escalate any further.

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Whenever I upset my mom, it doesn't matter who is 'right,' I just say, "I'm sorry, Mom, that came out wrong."

 

That stumps her for a moment, because it's hard to argue with an apology, and if I sense further comment coming, I just kiss her cheek or her hand or her forehead as I get up to leave the room, and I say, "I love you, Mama...." AS I EXIT THE ROOM.

 

It doesn't matter where I go, or even if it's just into the kitchen to get something. If that's the case, I change the subject by saying, "I'm pouring some ice water, can I get you some?"

 

A quick and easy apology followed by a change of subject usually works, and an exit from the room works if all else fails. No huffing, no puffing, no trying to 'correct' her or plead a case. Period.

 

Over time this has taught Mom that starting an argument prompts me to walk away, while avoiding argument prompts me to stay and talk about other things.

 

So if she wants my company, she needs to behave. If she wants me to leave, just start a problem, and I'm gone.

 

Be consistently kind, even when you opt to walk away, and don't take the bait.

 

Head high, and treat arguments like one hand clapping.

 

I've tried that, but it's tricky. I am very argumentative, so it's hard for me to get there, but the times I've managed to do it she takes it as an advantage and rants for hours about everything I've done wrong since I was born to this day lol. If I walk away, she'll follow me to keep it going. If I apologize and say "I love you" she'll always say "well then show it, because..." and keep going over and over the same thing. We're both difficut people, but we're opposites. It's hard for me not to take the bait, but most of the times I manage. And all she does is throw more bait lol

 

I know it sounds like I'm making excuses, but the thing is that this has been going on for more than ten years and I honestly feel like I've tried it all. That's why I need advice, I feel like nothing works except just turning myself into a robot programmed by her. It's not that I want to correct her or disagree with her, because I don't. But simple human interactions can go wrong, and avoiding it has gotten us nowhere. It's just the same spot but causing me anxiety lol. Idk.

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You say you are very argumentative OP. Leaving aside altogether the heated situation with your mother, argumentative is not the best trait to have when navigating this life of ours.

 

"people who constantly argue seek control and power over others. You cannot reason with them, so it’s best to withdraw from an argument than try to prove them wrong

Remind yourself that chronic arguing is an ingrained defence mechanism that, with time and patience, can be unlearned."

 

From: an article by Dr. N. Davies.

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You say you are very argumentative OP. Leaving aside altogether the heated situation with your mother, argumentative is not the best trait to have when navigating this life of ours.

 

"people who constantly argue seek control and power over others. You cannot reason with them, so it’s best to withdraw from an argument than try to prove them wrong

Remind yourself that chronic arguing is an ingrained defence mechanism that, with time and patience, can be unlearned."

 

From: an article by Dr. N. Davies.

 

Lmao no, not in that sense. I'm a philosopher. When I say I'm argumentative I don't mean that I chronically argue, in fact I hate confrontation; I'm the one who doesn't mind where we're eating, what we're doing, where we're going, or what you do, I will adapt so there are no problems because usually it's not a big deal for me. However, if you ask what I think, I will tell you and I will support it with arguments, and when I believe I'm right I can always demonstrate it. I don't see the point in lying just to make people feel better, because I believe that is treating them ina condescending way and I think that's demeaning, you see.

 

That's what I mean by argumentative; when you catch an argument with me, it's hard for me to just give it your way. So when my mother comes and tells me that I am a bad daughter, I won't say "yes you're right"; I will say that's not true and argue back. The times I have been able to just say "ok you're right", I just can't sit through an hour of how bad I am, how much of a bad person I am, how I've always hated her and just say "yes, you're right", see where I'm going? It's not that I go ahead an pick fights, it's that agreeing with her doesn't get me anywhere either.

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Right.

 

So it could be 2021 before you can make it to Germany, where I am assuming you will work with your BF.

 

Meantime, we are only in July 2020, so would you not consider moving out for the next 12 months and share an apartment with a room-mate or acquaintance?

 

Just what you said below. All the more reason to get yourself out of there before things escalate any further.

 

I've tried but my friends are either married or don't wanna move out. And well, renting in Mexico is not easy as well. Most of the times you need to prove your income, someone needs to lend the paperwork of their own property in case you don't pay rent (and a very few people are willing to do so). There are some websites and apps that connect you with people who are also looking to rent, but tbh Mexico is very very unsafe, so it's not a great idea to just move with someone you don't know rather well...

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So, essentially, you are stuck until you are able to travel abroad.

 

"So when my mother comes and tells me that I am a bad daughter, I won't say "yes you're right"; I will say that's not true and argue back."

 

It's going to be a tiring 12 months Xan! lol.

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I've tried that, but it's tricky. I am very argumentative, so it's hard for me to get there,

 

Then stop being argumentative. That's within your control. Arguing gets you nothing but the opposite of what you want. So stop.

 

the times I've managed to do it she takes it as an advantage and rants for hours about everything I've done wrong since I was born to this day lol. If I walk away, she'll follow me to keep it going.

 

She can't, if you leave the house.

 

If I apologize and say "I love you" she'll always say "well then show it, because..." and keep going over and over the same thing.

 

She can't, if you leave the house.

 

We're both difficut people, but we're opposites. It's hard for me not to take the bait, but most of the times I manage. And all she does is throw more bait lol

 

Stop viewing it as 'difficult' to behave maturely enough for the both of you. Then it becomes habitual--and from there it becomes simple. It's a decision.

 

I know it sounds like I'm making excuses, but the thing is that this has been going on for more than ten years and I honestly feel like I've tried it all.

 

Trying does not equal success when you attach a larger agenda. Shrink your agenda down to one instance of kindness followed by exit, then there's no further 'bait' that exists. You're already gone, and you don't carry a 'need' to teach lessons or gain an upper hand.

 

Done. After that, shut your mouth and don't stir the pot.

 

Rinse, repeat as necessary.

 

That's why I need advice, I feel like nothing works except just turning myself into a robot programmed by her. It's not that I want to correct her or disagree with her, because I don't. But simple human interactions can go wrong, and avoiding it has gotten us nowhere. It's just the same spot but causing me anxiety lol. Idk.

 

If this is true, then you won't need to do anything but apologize for the misunderstanding, kiss Mom, and exit. Period.

 

If you won't stop yourself from trying to 'prove' something, then that's your circular error. Stop trying to convince or 'win,' and just de-escalate until Mom learns--over t.i.m.e--that you consistently leave when she starts trouble.

 

You cannot teach anything to anyone in one instance. It's about consistency over time.

 

When a child wants your attention, and they believe that the only way they can get it is to cause friction, then learn YOUR part in upholding that belief. Start rewarding kindness or even neutrality with your attention, and ignore friction. Consistently.

 

When a child throws a temper tantrum, paying attention to 'correct' it only rewards it. Instead, smart families walk away from the tantrum scene and focus their attention elsewhere. This teaches the child that only 'good' or neutral behavior is rewarded with attention, while tantrums get dismissed.

 

Well? Older people can behave just like toddlers, only they are better at it. So research ways that expert-yet-loving-parents ignore tantrums and reward desired behaviors. Start practicing those techniques without regard for instant results.

 

Teach over time. Reward with attention during non-friction times, kindly dismiss friction with a lack of attention, and you will see results consistent with YOUR ability to be consistent.

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Well your temperament is your temperament. When you move out, hopefully you'll be able to stop the dynamic of rebellious teen - exasperated irritable parent. Once that cycle is broken you may be able to revisit it.

 

As long as you live at home as you did like a teen, even as an adult, people tend to replay and get stuck in their roles. You can't help your mother's situation, but hopefully you'll be able to break this pattern. Some people even experience this at family gatherings, getting sucked right back into old dysfunctional roles.

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Well your temperament is your temperament. When you move out, hopefully you'll be able to stop the dynamic of rebellious teen - exasperated irritable parent. Once that cycle is broken you may be able to revisit it.

 

As long as you live at home as you did like a teen, even as an adult, people tend to replay and get stuck in their roles. You can't help your mother's situation, but hopefully you'll be able to break this pattern. Some people even experience this at family gatherings, getting sucked right back into old dysfunctional roles.

 

Very true. My tendency as a teenager was to be late to family functions. My step-brother would be even later, or not show up at all.

 

I have since been never late to meet family in over 25 years. Yet, when brother shows up late, everybody giggles and parents say, "That's Luke and Cat...always late!"

 

Do I perk up and argue that? Nope. Disproving this untruth is no longer a knee-jerk habit that has only ever served to fuel my own frustrations.

 

I've learned to just enjoy a great day with family, and I embrace the rebel rep. When they say it, I might chime in, "That's right! It feels so good to be sooo bad!" ...and nobody really cares about the inaccuracy.

 

We get to pick our battles, and most are NOT worth the effort--or the indignancy.

 

GrOw beyond it, and you'll thank yourself.

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Indeed Cat. And we sure do mellow as we grow older. L.

 

My parents died some years ago. We never argued much. Maybe as a teen, probably. lol. I just wish I could have them here for one day. They were the most well-adjusted people I have ever met since.

 

Just thought I'd add this from our own Seamus Heaney

 

“All of us would like to have been born

Infallible, but since we knew we weren't,

It's better to attend to those who speak

In honesty and good faith, and learn from them.”

― Seamus Heaney, The Burial at Thebes: A Version of Sophocles' Antigone

 

You see Xan, this is what I mean about tiring:

 

" and truly, it is just not the case. 99% of the interactions is me shutting the hell up while she goes on and about how I am an awful daughter, following me around if I leave or speaking louder so I listen to her, or just huffing at me for days."

 

You can't leave, (no reason to "storm out" anyhow), and if you stay you have this ongoing dynamic day after day. How do you think you will stand this for months to come? What will you do?

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Then stop being argumentative. That's within your control. Arguing gets you nothing but the opposite of what you want. So stop.

 

 

 

She can't, if you leave the house.

 

 

 

She can't, if you leave the house.

 

 

 

Stop viewing it as 'difficult' to behave maturely enough for the both of you. Then it becomes habitual--and from there it becomes simple. It's a decision.

 

 

 

Trying does not equal success when you attach a larger agenda. Shrink your agenda down to one instance of kindness followed by exit, then there's no further 'bait' that exists. You're already gone, and you don't carry a 'need' to teach lessons or gain an upper hand.

 

Done. After that, shut your mouth and don't stir the pot.

 

Rinse, repeat as necessary.

 

 

 

If this is true, then you won't need to do anything but apologize for the misunderstanding, kiss Mom, and exit. Period.

 

If you won't stop yourself from trying to 'prove' something, then that's your circular error. Stop trying to convince or 'win,' and just de-escalate until Mom learns--over t.i.m.e--that you consistently leave when she starts trouble.

 

You cannot teach anything to anyone in one instance. It's about consistency over time.

 

When a child wants your attention, and they believe that the only way they can get it is to cause friction, then learn YOUR part in upholding that belief. Start rewarding kindness or even neutrality with your attention, and ignore friction. Consistently.

 

When a child throws a temper tantrum, paying attention to 'correct' it only rewards it. Instead, smart families walk away from the tantrum scene and focus their attention elsewhere. This teaches the child that only 'good' or neutral behavior is rewarded with attention, while tantrums get dismissed.

 

Well? Older people can behave just like toddlers, only they are better at it. So research ways that expert-yet-loving-parents ignore tantrums and reward desired behaviors. Start practicing those techniques without regard for instant results.

 

Teach over time. Reward with attention during non-friction times, kindly dismiss friction with a lack of attention, and you will see results consistent with YOUR ability to be consistent.

 

Sorry, but I find this answer really funny. "Stop being argumentative". Oh, alright, never thought of that. I've said this before: I'm not saying this is how I am and act upon all the time, I say I restrain but it's hard for me as it is how I am. 99% of the time I DO NOT argue, I DO NOT engage. This is what gives me anxiety. I'm just trying to say that it's not working either.

 

Also, "she can't if you leave the house", how, exactly? Leaving for good, or storming out like a teenager? Because right now I can't do any of them. I'm guessing you think I stay and argue because I want to, and truly, it is just not the case. 99% of the interactions is me shutting the hell up while she goes on and about how I am an awful daughter, following me around if I leave or speaking louder so I listen to her, or just huffing at me for days.

 

Also, you say behaving maturely enough is a decision, yet I've told many times I usually take that decision, it's just NOT ENOUGH. I feel like I'm failing to communicate the point. I can't "kiss mom and leave the room", when I apologize she thinks I'm making fun of her and if I go kiss her she'll slam my face in the wall lol I don't think you understand how bad things are. You spell "t.i.m.e", and if ten years is not "t.i.m.e" then I just don't understand what's needed. I've ignored her consistently for what, now, ten months since I came back home, and yesterday it just hit the fan and told me that she's been mistreated for the same ten months by me. See the point? Walking away and not acknlowledgning in your experience might mean "teaching", for her it means I hate her guts and just builds up resentment.

 

I am really happy that it worked for you, but trust me when I say it doesn't work for her. That's the whole problem. It's unhealthy for me and it's not even working; if it worked well I wouldn't be here in the first place since I started ignoring her and not talking back since I was 18.

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And, as a matter of fact, it's not only if I argue. It's literally everything I do. Yesterday she said "she can notice" that I am annoyed when she passes me by. The only thing I do is exist, and somehow she concludes I am annoyed. See the point?

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Again, Xan. I say the same thing. I do see what you are saying.

 

But, you have said you cannot leave (now, for reasons you gave re insecurity etc.), and staying is evidently driving you mad. So, what solution is there, according to you? As I said before, there could be 12 months of this.

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Again, Xan. I say the same thing. I do see what you are saying.

 

But, you have said you cannot leave (now, for reasons you gave re insecurity etc.), and staying is evidently driving you mad. So, what solution is there, according to you? As I said before, there could be 12 months of this.

 

Well, that's why I'm here asking for advice. I'm not asking "how can I keep arguing with my mom without her being mad", I'm asking "how can I breathe without her thinking I hate her". If I had a solution, I would just do it, not ask.

 

The advice everybody is giving is good advice as in it might get me through without further mental health issues, but I don't think it's solving anything, you know. If you are ill you can very well take medicine for the pain, but you're not gonna recover with just that. The advice I look for is a way in which I can interact with her without her thinking that I hate her... as I just said, she thinks I'm annoyed when she passes me by, and nothing literally comes out of my mouth. I don't think I can avoid that until I just leave.

 

In the end, I am asking if there are ways in which I can actively repair some things in our relation and make her feel less defensive. Not because I feel responsible of what she feels, but because I think it can be done, and if I want a better relationship with her, treating her like a toddler just won't do. Conflict like this is like cancer, it grows faster when you choose not to see it.

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And please don't get me wrong; I am thankful for all the advice and the insight, and I am understanding many things and seeing others that I can exercise. It's not that I am looking for an advice telling me what I want to hear; but I wanna do things in the best possible way, for the best possible outcome.

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Sorry, but I find this answer really funny. "Stop being argumentative". Oh, alright, never thought of that.

 

This was not my description of how you are, it's your own.

 

You say that you are argumentative, and then true to form, you go sarcastic and argue against the suggestion that it's within your own power to change your own self-characterization.

 

Also, "she can't if you leave the house", how, exactly? Leaving for good, or storming out like a teenager?

 

Why are those your only two options? Couldn't you become a regular walker around your block for exercise? Choosing times that coincide with Mom's troublemaking can be deliberate.

 

I can't "kiss mom and leave the room", when I apologize she thinks I'm making fun of her

 

It's not your job to control what Mom 'thinks.' Behave in ways that teach her that you won't stick around to argue. Whether she 'likes' that or not isn't the point.

 

Your whole basis for this post is to change Mom's perception that you hate her. Yet since your responses to me are hostile, I can see where she picks up hatred in your messaging.

 

I'd quit trying to control Mom's thinking, which causes you nothing but frustration and problems, and instead, I'd start teaching Mom that the way to get my attention is to speak 'with' me and not 'at' me.

 

You get to control how you want to do that. Learning through books and articles from experts who train children is a good place to start. It's psychology basics for dealing with a childish mentality.

 

You can balk at the advice you requested, or you can keep an open mind and try it out--but going hostile won't move you any closer to solving the problem of being perceived as hostile.

 

Good luck.

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